BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 12:48 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Responses To Racism
From: hilda fish - PM
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 01:00 AM

I just can't see that there is a problem saying THAT IS OFFENSIVE - THAT IS RACIST - IT DEMEANS ME - IT DEMEANS YOU - IT DEMEANS WHAT IS HUMAN IN US ALL. IT IS NOT RIGHT. IT IS NOT SOMETHING I'M PREPARED TO LET GO BY UNCHALLENGED. IT IS CRUEL, DANGEROUS AND MURDEROUS AND IF I WAS IN YOUR FACE YOU'D CERTAINLY FEEL HOW I FEEL ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE DOING. GET THIS INTO YOUR HEAD - RACISM IS AN INSULT. I AM CALLING YOU A RACIST. GO AWAY!!!!! To name it and attack it is a good start I think. A story - I was once at a pub with a friend. It was a social meeting between a big group of people of like mind. Various people were getting up to talk about things. It was all pretty progressive and 'good'. Then this guy got up and in response to an article in a newspaper stated that Aboriginal people were more aligned with animals than human - that white people were superior and it was time that Indigenous (Blak) people got the picture. And so on. Everyone listened politely while I started steaming. Oh dear I thought, waiting for my 'friends' to rip him to shreds one way or another. They didn't. There was a lot of polite discussion about how what he said was unacceptable. Un...f...acceptable! I was dying there by what he said and I was dying there because no-one (here you are Azizi) was watching my back. Here we go again I thought. I have to stand up and name this crap and condemn it because no-one else is gonna. They don't even see it. Or they believe in 'freedom of speech', 'politeness'. I thought for a minute and realised no-one was going to listen so I launched myself out of my chair and gave him a mighty smack in the mouth. Everyone grabbed me but I did get a good kick in.    I was hauled out of the pub and banned. Well. I was shaking and in a shocking way but I felt good - not belittled or victimised - but good. Now those who know me know that I am pretty mouthy sometimes but not violent. The worst I mostly do is getting into a swearing frenzy and walk away but truly, mostly I am polite, ladylike, blah blah blah. Some Koories in the front bar came out and sat with me. We sat together and then various people including my friends came out and condemned me at first for being 'violent'. We talked and basically I said they were gutless for not naming and challenging it - they said they had left that to me. Why me? They saw it too. Why always us to deal with this stuff? Everyone knows about the lynchings and the shootings and all the terrible stuff that is given permission through racist words and racist deeds. Sometimes I am beyond words as my people are sometimes so beyond words that all we can do is scream, go mad, and yes, smack someone in the mouth. The guy said he'd never speak like that again in front of me if that is the result. What did I care what the racist creep thought. He hadn't cared about me or my blood. All I can say is name it, challenge it, reject it in all its forms. Its not a polite discussion you know. Good phrase Azizi - "need to know and see is that somebody's got our back". I'd like to rely on that as one human being to another. Life has shown that I can't - yet. And yeah, come to Sydney Azizi and stay with me or Freda. You can see how Australia practises its racism!! There are many forms (just joking heh heh). Oh, the first time I heard "Strange Fruit" was in Melbourne at a folk club such a long time ago. Everyone thought it was a terrific song - I was the only Aboriginal there and I cried and cried and cried once I got what it was about. Everyone thought I was drunk!! How awful and sad is that song? What can I say? Rest in peace all my brothers and sisters on this planet who no longer walk the earth because someone did not like your skin. I honor your short lives and your suffering and will not forgive so easily and well not let racism have a healthy life wherever I meet it. Rest in peace. That's the bottom line isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Bee
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 01:14 PM

The best thing I can say is that I hope we are all living in a time and place where racism, overt or subtle, is lessening. I hope the next generations of Bees and Azizis and McGraths and Janies and all will be able to read archived conversations like this one with the same degree of detachment I feel when reading about the Highland Clearances. That is, that our forebears suffered opression and evil acts in the past that have little or no effect on my present circumstances, or that our forebears committed these acts of opression with similar present lack of effect.

Such hurts live on for generations, the significance of their effects to some extent related to the magnitude of the original crimes. In the case of the Clearances, for example, very few North Americans of Scottish Ancestry could honestly complain that they are now significantly the worse for those events. But my father, five generations out of the Isles, and normally a non-political, quiet and gentle man, was moved to say one day, when observing a ceremonial visit to Cape Breton of a Scottish 'Clan Chief', "Look at them, fawning over that person whose family didn't know or care about them and their children, or where they went or whether they lived or died. They are fools."

I was young, and shocked by the bitterness in his tone, because it was out of character. But later I learned how his generation, and his father's generation literally had the Gaelic beaten out of them in order to make them 'civilized'. And I learned family stories that dated back five generations and more, from humourous events and ghost stories to intelligent evaluations of particular diseases and conditions to which our family seems to have been predisposed for many generations.

I am not by any means comparing the African American history of slavery and racism with the opression of the Highland Scots in order of magnitude. I am just hoping that healing can happen, as it has for my family and others over the generations.

I have no idea if what I just wrote conveys what I wanted to express, and apologise for being inarticulate if no one else can grasp it either.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 01:23 PM

What you said makes sense to me Bee.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 01:32 PM

Bee, I agree with what you said.

But as long as institutional racism is so pervasive, and as long as institutional racism continues to result in more generations lost, how can we ever really move from the past?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 01:57 PM

I think institutional racism is the part that good hearted people just don't get, Azizi. Because they, and most folks they know, aren't overtly racist, they delude themselves into thinking that it isn't there. If all things are equal, folks, no matter if you cut them by race, shoe size, religion, or color of hair, should appear in the various strata of society (jobs, housing, level of education, jail,etc) in roughly the same percentages they appear in the population. One need only look at the numbers for people of color to understand that we have a problem. The racist makes the argument for genetic and intellectual inferiority. But these morons have a short view of history. In the last two centuries on this continent, as well as the last 9 centuries in Europe, it was variously the Irish, Germans, Italians, Polish, etc., that were accused of the same. One still sees the remnants of institutional bias, and its effects on all segments of society, in the North of Ireland. One can say it ain't so till skippy comes home, but the numbers tell the story. We are wasting the precious potential of a large segment of our youth, and dooming our society, by refusing to see that this exists and MUST be dealt with.

The African descended peoples deal with an additional burden. My own folks could hide, or "pass", in order to be successful. We changed the spellings on our names, and hid our ethnicity. But one cannot hide the color of their skin. And so it went on and on. It is germane that I just this past few minutes walked in from having lunch in the local restaraunt. I live in a very rural and white part of West Michigan. I group of young men walked in, and one was a young African American kid. I found myself thinking what a great looking kid he was, but you should have seen the guarded looks. And he was aware of it. Now, I know some of these folks, and they aren't bad folks, and probably weren't even aware that they were making him uncomfortable. But it was clear what was going on. The moment for that young man was difficult.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Peace
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 02:20 PM

Institutional racism/sexism/etc-ism is diabolical. I grew up poor. Missed more than a few meals as a kid, despite the best efforts of my family to keep us fed and clean. I hated going to school because I had patches in my school pants and no one else did. The cash just wasn't there in those days to go buy another pair, so ya made do. I was teased about it and platitudinal remarks from teachers and other well-meaning folks just did nothing to change the way I felt back then--maybe that's where my 'fu#k you' attitude came from. That aside and to the point, because IMO the two issues do go together for the purpose of this post, I had gone to take a pee and a fellow was already in the can. (This was in Grade 4 or so.) We finished our business and lo, there upon the tiled floor was $.25. THAT was a small fortune in those days. We didn't know what to do about it so I said, "Eeny, meeny, miney mo, catch a nig" and stopped there, because the look of pain I saw on his face was one I knew I'd felt on my own face more than a few times. You see, "Allan" was Black. Over the years he and I came to be able to talk about it, but it was that day I found out lots about language, thoughtlessness and the power of words. "Allan" and I later played football on the same team, and we came to enjoy each other's company off the field, but that was always there in the background.

There are many things we can control, and to the extent we can we should. Institutional stuff can be changed, too, but not unless we actively effect that change. We can do that by NOT tolerating it AT ALL in our lives, places of work, places of business, places of play.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 02:49 PM

Well said Peace

My folks were immigrants of a different faith and race from their host country when they arrived in the UK fleeing persecution because of that difference.
Like Mick's folks they sought to disguise their ethnicity and 'fit in' by changing their family name.

One aspect of that 'heritage' I still cleave to were written by the daughter of Holocaust survivors....

'For my mother and father, Judaism meant bearing witness, raging against injustice and foregoing silence
It meant compassion, and rescue.....These were the ultimate values.'

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Amos
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 02:56 PM

My thanks to Aziz and to hilda-fish for those relayed PM posts. They show the damage caused by the embedded idiocy we call racism better than any abstract discussion could possibly do.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Bee
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 03:00 PM

All good points, regarding institutional racism, and the casual racism of language, the racial nature of the dispensation of justice, and the enforcement of poverty by reason of race and ethnicity.

And it is very true, that those of us that could hide our ethnicity have had the historical advantage, however shameful a betrayal of our parents that must have felt at one time or another.

The tendencies of humans as a species to declare the Outsider, the one who is different in appearance, speech, culture, as inferior or bad seems to be deeply rooted in prehistory. There has to be a way to start with young children and teach them that suspicion of those who are different is wrong, no matter how instinctive it may be. We rise above other instincts. There has to be a determination to make sure our leaders and politicians know that we will not accept their pandering to such prejudices, that such tactics will not win them votes or power.

I see such tactics used with success far too often, sometimes over the most trivial of differences, let alone visible ones - how many times over the years has some Alberta or British Columbia or Ontario politician used the job-seeking immigration from other provinces in the same 'enlightened' country of Atlantic Canadians as an example of a 'problem' he will address? It should disgust us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 04:23 PM

However, I cannot accept that standards of speech or conduct are racist. Anyone can learn to speak and act in a particular way. Societies always value the speech and behaviour habits of their ruling classes above those of the ruled classes.

Anyone who denies this should consider the career paths of, let us say, Waheed Alli (now Lord Alli), Vincent Nelson QC, or Mr Justice Mota Singh.

Or you could contrast the behaviour of the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air and his uncle into whose house he came.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 04:26 PM

That gets us into class, which in England tends to be seen as even more significant...

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 04:35 PM

One of England's major failings, IMO, and one of the root causes of rebellions around the world against the Empire.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Rowan
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 04:46 PM

institutional racism, and the casual racism of language, the racial nature of the dispensation of justice, and the enforcement of poverty by reason of race and ethnicity

In so many ways, there's the nub.

While I've had some (minor and limited but discernable) success in removing institutional racism I've found that language is the hardest to change. Various experiences have led me to believe that, if we can't change our use of language, we won't make much progress in changing the other aspects of racism. Perhaps I should write "I" instead of "we" in this post.

There are others more eloquent than I'll ever be who've demonstrated the power of language and racism is, fundamentally, projection of power (whether real or imagined) and it's when I've concentrated on how I'm using language that I've been able to realise the likely effects and meanings that I've not intended.

And they're so "trivial"! "Black as the ace of spades"; relatively innocuous except where "Spade" is used as a pejorative, but "black hearted"? Perhaps it was around before Europeans started colonising Africa but it has collected layers of meaning relevant to this discussion. And there are worse that every different culture knows and uses. But until we start to exercise some control over how we use them they'll still exercise power.

And if you see me trip, feel free to set me straight.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 04:54 PM

I think you also have to weigh some health effects..I think it is necessary to stand up, but perhaps you can't always, each and every time. It wears the body down. I think constantly inciting anger in young men, which is done, and there is justification for their anger..but nevertheless, inciting young men to anger can result in them doing jail time among other problems. There has to be some sort of balance..keep pressing, but perhaps systematically..I don't know the answer...I know constant confrontations will have the opposite effect of what is really desired...always letting things slide is not the answer, always fighting to the end is not the ansewr for most anyway. Everyone has to work towards decency I think..to be a decent person..the one thing I have somehow retained from my semi-Irish ancestry...be decent...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 04:57 PM

Education has to play a key role in it, mg, imo. That's one of the things we worked on constantly in Wyoming - human rights, in general with a focus on racism and education, education, education.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 05:16 PM

I think too much can be made of the power of words, once we get beyond the obviously true business about overtly offensive language.

For example, "black" and "dark" and so forth have pretty univeral connotations to do with light and shade and not being able to see in the dark and so forth, and scary things happening at night, which are far older than any contacts between people with noticeably different skin colour. That's where an expression like "black-hearted" has its source.

Changing language as a way of signaling a rejection of racist attitudes can be useful. (And it isn't just race where this kind of thing applies - for example it is as relevant in relation to disabilities, particularly learning disabilities)

But that kind of change is just a symbol. If the attitudes don't get changed the new language will be be used with the old attitudes, and will take on the same qualities. And there is a very real danger in going overboard and trying to change language that isn't intended as offensive,and isn't generally understood as offensive either. The effect can be, paradoxically enough, to triviliase issues that are far from trivial.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Rowan
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 05:49 PM

I was trying to briefly describe my own experience; I suppose I had addressed my own attitudes, realised that I wasn't deliberately being racist (or sexist or negatively discriminatory; they were all 'associated' in my case), but concentrated on actively rooting out aspects of my language and behaviour I thought were inappropriate. In my case, changing language was, perhaps, symbolic but I think it was also substantive in that it allowed me to be more active in addressing the central issues as well as the apparently trivial. The examples I used were off the top of my head and thus 'suss' but I think you understood my drift.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 06:28 PM

Attitudes need changing in order to finally remove the burden of racism from the shoulders of the human race.

Nobody can argue with the truth of that proposition.

What is difficult is to get people to see that all of us need to change our attitudes, and I do mean all.

There are a multitude of ethnic groupings who have been disadvantaged by means of racial stereotyping at different points in the history of the human race.

True to say that the white races have been more guilty of racial discrimination than most, a situation that has been gradually improving (tho' there is obviously still some distance to go), but the necessary further change in their attitude is unlikely to be expedited by being made to feel that they should apologise for their white skin because of things their grandfathers may have done.

If someone seeks to punish me continually for the actions of generations who lived and died before I was born, and fails to notice the fact that I treat everybody the same, regardless of colour, then I am unlikely to have great respect for his point of view.

As I said, attitudes must change on both sides, and finding that balance is the biggest obstacle to be overcome.

In the last five years I have many times been called "Honkey", "Cue Ball", "Whitey", and some even nastier names by black members of a local bunch of hoodies.

If I had responded with the "N" word, I would, in all probability have had a visit from the police.

We need to remember that white people ARE an ethnic group also, and we further need to come together and agree that we are living in the 21st Century, and bury those past hurts, over which none of us had any control.

Only then can we all move on together. Until then we are merely growing the next generation of hate.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Bee
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 07:14 PM

Don, young punks of any ethnicity will call people names. It is most likely that somewhere, at the same time you are being harassed verbally by young Black 'hoodies', some middle aged tired Black guy on his way home from work is having the 'n' word and worse tossed in his direction by a clutch of stupid white teenaged boys. Been there, heard it from both directions.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 07:32 PM

I am so tired of the "I didn't do that, it was people over 100 years ago" line of defense. So you are a wonderful human being that treats everyone with respecdt. So some punk calls you the names you describe. How the hell does that alibi what is clearly still happening in society today. I don't mean to denigrate your efforts to be ethical and caring human beings, but what the hell are you doing about erasing the institutional biases described above? When I hear white folks talk about "reverse discrimination" as if it erases 250 years of societal, institutional and personal discrimination. Do they not drive through poor neighborhoods where kids have so much stacked against them? Do you not get the difference between racism against a people, generations long, and the reaction to it you call "reverse racism"?

Obama is a wonderful example of how far we have come. One needs only to look to the streets to see how far we have to go.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 07:36 PM

"White people" as such aren't an ethnic group. There are a large number of ethnic groups made up of "white" people, and at times relations between them can be very hairy indeed. (Think of the former Yugoslavia, for example, or Northern Ireland.)

In North America, for example, my understanding is that "Anglos" and "Hispanics" tend to be regarded and to regard themselves as belonging to different ethnic groups, even when the individuals concerned may both be "white".

This isn't just me being pedantic. It illustrates how variable and arbitrary are the ways in which we divide ourselves up.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 07:42 PM

Mick brings up the notion that blacks cannot "escape" their distinct (from the "white" majority) appearance -- though whites found successful means of escaping class and ethnic distinction (that may have held them down) by merely changing their names.

Curious thing, that notion. Curious, because the oriental is at least as distinct from "white" in their appearence, and yet they are not constantly begging for racial understanding. In fact, statistically they are more successful at raising themselves up out of poverty than are whites.

And don't tell me they weren't downtrodden here. They were terribly downtrodden in the 18th century, with the bonus "downtrod" of internment in WWII.

The only "Institutional" racism is in the perceptions and policies demanded of the USA by the American left. They are the only ones who still think blacks incapable of achieving on their own, and, instead require government aid to be successful.

I wouldn't dream of talking down to Azizi as so many on the left here patronize her. She doesn't NEED my patronizing support, and I expect of her EXACTLY the same strength of reason and character and ability to tolerate my disagreeing with her as anyone else here with whom I disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 07:53 PM

So then, John, perhaps you could enlighten me as to exactly why, in your opinion, we continue to see ongoing problems of inequality in education levels, higher crime rates, higher levels of single parenthood, etc, etc?

As to the distinct appearance piece, you mistate my position. It in no way alibi's the ongoing institutional racism against people of color. The skin tone issue is simply one of the factors that made it harder for African descended folks to integrate into society.

The institutional racism you lay at the feet of the left surely has some basis in fact (see my first post),but acting as though the right has no culpability is the modern day equivalent of "washing ones hands". Racism is a scourge, perpetuated in this country on folks of color primarily, that should not simply be something that we "wash our hands clean of". It must be systematically, and proactively, rooted out. Focus on the word proactively, as it is the most important word in the sentence.

So, friend John, I would like to hear your explanation as to the reasons you feel that we still have the problems we have in this country.

Thanks,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Rowan
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 07:59 PM

The only "Institutional" racism is in the perceptions and policies demanded of the USA by the American left. They are the only ones who still think blacks incapable of achieving on their own, and, instead require government aid to be successful.

I suspect "the American left" cut very little ice in the institutionalisation of racism in Oz or the UK. While Azizi, who started the thread, is from the US, she addressed the Mudcat community and its effects. The Mudcat community (like racism) is quite international in its components and outlook and the discussion has both acknowledged and been enriched by that perspective.

But I certainly have no disagreement with the rest of your post.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 08:06 PM

McGrath, to the extent that "Hispanic" exists as anything else than a government-created nitch in which to put people, it is a linguistic and cultural distinction rather than an ethnic one. For example, Alberto Fujimori, the former president of Peru, is considered Hispanic, as are the African-descended members of the population of Cuba. For that matter, so is my Panamanian son-in-law, who has red hair, very pale skin and stands 6 foot 2 inches. People in the US tend to equate Hispanic with Mexicans and Central Americans, who make up by far the majority of the Spanish-speaking or Spanish-descended population in this country. "Anglo" is another interesting word. Used primarily in the Southwest, it basically means everybody who is of European descent, including French, Italians and Irish and my Russian-Jewish wife!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 08:09 PM

...in the 18th century ???

I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 08:12 PM

Single parenthood will lead really really fast to lots of problems. We need to approach it from a child welfare (I remain unconvinced it is healthy for many children..some will do fine)..and economic standpoint and leave out you are a bad girl notion. Instead, here is a situation you can get into with very grave results for you, and you are forcing others most likely to help pay for you....your child will not probably have a father in his/her life, and we have to really really play dumb to think that does not hurt a number of children..again, not all..if there is no father there are probably no grandparents, uncles, cousins on that whole side of the family. There are skills often passed down from father especially to son. There is the protection a father can offer. Remember those Russian men who went into a blaze of bullets from a school where their children were held hostage. Do American children deserve less? Inner city children? Appelachian children? Just yesterday a man chased a car down who had kidnapped his daughter, and he got her back. You lose that whole level of protection, and could possibly live in a neighborhood where protection is very adviseable.

And it is not insignificant that someone is called names. It is an act of violence ...you do not know if they are going to follow it up with a whack from a baseball bat. It is not a minor thing to do have adolescents roaming the streets and public transportation, where there is no escape, talking foul and in intimidating ways. It is the pathway to physical violence studies are finding.

So we know how to make peoples' lives way worse...drop out of school, do not learn a trade, (which in even a fairly bad school you can often learn something..) , use drugs or alcohol and have a baby or a series of them without a father. It applies to everyone..more to some because it is worse with poverty, but there is the poverty of spirit that so many are cursed with because it is socially acceptable to have children sans fathers. It is a tragedy many times over, and not just economically. A father who is unable to work, will never ever have a hope of work, can still cook, take his kids to school, supervise them, take them to the library etc. etc. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 08:15 PM

19th, I think. There were very few Asians of any ethnicity in the Americas until they came in as cheap (and disposable) labor for the expansion of the railroads after the US Civil War.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 09:18 PM

I know very little about the history, cultures of 19th, 20th, and
21st century Asians Americans {Asians in the USA}.

I also know very little about the coping mechanism that they use/d against the psychological effects of racism and discrimination.

Yet, I'm wondering if one key difference between African Americans {those who were enslaved} and Asian Americans, was that Asian Americans had strong racial/ethnic identities, and ties to a motherland/homeland while African Americans did not. It seems to me that having a strong sense of self, strong historical and cultural memories of greatness and maintaining on some level ties with a home country would strengthen the spirit and resolve of people who were facing racism and discrimination.

I'm also wondering if having those ties and memories innoculated Asians against accepting the myth of Asian inferiority that White Americans believed. I think that this is a critical difference between African Americans and Asian Americans.

For a very long time in our history in the USA and the rest of the Americans, most Black people believed that we were inferior to White people, and to all other people for that matter. I don't think that most Asians believed that.

Unfortunately, I think that some African Americans still believe that they are intellectually inferior to White people and other people.

Having a positive group identity is an important part of self-esteem. In my opinion, that is what many Black people have been lacking for a long time. One way that Black Americans have achieved at least a positive group identity is the adoption of the group name "African American". This group name re-affirms our connection with the continent of Africa and even on a surface level helps us to feel connected to the glories of traditional African cultures {by traditional African cultures I include Egypt, but also include Ethiopia, ancient Sudan, ancient Ethiopia, ancient Ghana, Mali, Songhay, and other kingdoms...

As I've noted, much of the connection that African Americans have with traditional Africa is very surface. But it is a beginning on the long road to feeling good about your people and your self.
I think that Asians and other peoples who always had this connection to their history and cultures may not realize how blessed they were and are because this was never taken away from them as a consequence of Europe and America's form of chattel slavery.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 10:09 PM

Azizi-

It was refreshing to be teaching students in Ethiopia back in the 1960's while I was a Peace Corps volunteer. They had no racial inferiority such as Black students evidenced in Los Angeles (where we practice taught) felt. Oh, to be sure, there were various levels of ethnic disrcrimation going on, and on levels where "we" as outsiders were oblivious to, but not the Black/White racial discrimination that we were more familiar with.

Maybe that experience made me a better teacher when I was working with inner city Black students in Detroit in the 1970's. But we also survived as teachers because we had a corps of Black students who we knew were watching our backs. I do recall vividly the time we were taken for a "tour" by some of our favorite students via car; it's all like a quick flashing slide show: 12th street with people hanging out on their front steps, bars with prostitutes pacing up and down the street, a restaurant with blazing torches from some island in the South Pacific, row upon row of burned out or abandoned houses...

And the stories some of those students would write. They still haunt me, but my former students still have to live with those stories as personal memories.

I, of course, could leave at any time and eventually did. That was a distinction that separated me from most of my students, even some of the brightest ones. There were so many ways that my students could fail to break out and I was teaching in a special program designed to help them do just that. The stress finally became too much for even our best students, who were actually coordinating the program. They were bought off with special scholarships when the University pulled the plug on the program.

You see, the major problem for the University was that our program enrollment kept doubling every quarter, and Black students were getting good grades and expecting to be accepted at the University. The teachers were all volunteers, donating their salaries to pay for the students tuition, and eventually the University administrators freaked out at the consequences of our success. For a while it seemed as if there might even be a massive demonstration (buses had been chartered, big signs printed) but that's when our student leaders, wisely perhaps, decided to accept their scholarships; somewhere there is a file with all the "exhibits."

So it goes!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Peace
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 05:46 AM

Everybody wants to look down on someone for some reason, real or imagined. We see this in the caste 'system' in India, England, in fact most countries. Enslavement happens world-wide. It's evident that the lack of sins of the forefathers does descend to their children in the form of poverty, perhaps the most 'cunning and diabolical' of the enslavements. I say lack of sins of the forefathers, because had my ancestors had the sense to enslave, rape, pillage and loot in the name of some '-ism', I would likely be rich today. Dylan said it better than I can:

'A South politician preaches to the poor white man,
"You got more than the blacks, don't complain.
You're better than them, you been born with white skin," they explain.
And the Negro's name
Is used it is plain
For the politician's gain
As he rises to fame
And the poor white remains
On the caboose of the train
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.'

Racism is not natural. It is taught--and learned. But that is a side-show when viewed in light of the main event. We have a world today in which poor children of south-east Asian people are sold into virtual slavery so we in more developed countries can wear the shoes and clothes we do. So we can have chocolate bars made from cocoa grown and harvested by slaves in the Cote d'Ivoire. So we can send our children to kill their children in the rich-man's game of world politics. And we continue to play the game in the name of this or that. Not a new theme, but a theme that exists because we allow it to through our own inertia, compliance, lust and greed--and sometimes necessity.

"To hold a man down, you have to stay down with him."

Booker T. Washington


I refuse to see any man as other than my brother. And I refuse to let anyone tell me otherwise. I went hungry more than a few times in my life, and to quote Jesse Winchester, "I'll tell you one thing Jack, you listen when your stomach speaks." I'd rather listen to my stomach than to the elected. My stomach KNOWS the state of affairs. And my eyes SEE the state of this world. And my ears HEAR it in the murmurs and sighs of oppressed people around this planet. And when my friend Azizi says some things ain't right from her perspective, then I want to know what those things are, what that perspective is and what I can do about it.

There are some fine people around here. I'm proud to 'know' you.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 05:57 AM

and blessings upon the people with the will to protest and the eloquence to express it in song, poetry and prose.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 09:18 AM

Azizi suggested that I further explain my experience teaching in Detroit in the 1970's in my somewhat opaque post above. That's not an easy job to do but this is what I PMed her:

"I was jumping about from one world to another. But it would take a book to lay out, and
argue through much of my experience. And no one book would ever do it justice. I'm not
going to try to do this on a Mudcat thread. LOL

12th Street was one of the most notoriously rough streets in Detroit in the 1970's.

The project I was involved with there was quite innovative. It was basically a series of
extension courses from Michigan State University (MSU), using class space at Wayne State
University. The students were 90% Black high school students, recruited by a small group
of Black teenagers from one neighborhood organization. One of the Wayne University
teachers lived in that neighborhood and had worked with the teenagers on other projects
and was impressed with their leadership capabilities.

Students who got good grades were assured acceptance and financial aid at MSU. Most
students did quite well.

The program began with 40 students. The next term jumped to 80 students. Each time the
program expanded, we were able to recruit more volunteer teachers, who donated their
stipends to pay for the students' tuition. When the program grew to 360 students MSU
shut it down. A mass protest was organized at the Detroit end, buses chartered to bring
students and their families up to East Lansing, an hour away, and where MSU is. At that
point the FBI began interviewing the student leadership, and they decided (wisely, I
suppose) to accept the full scholarships offered by MSU and called off the protest.

Maybe I'll see if I can find any sign of this program via Goggle, but I suspect it remained
under the radar and only exists in some file folder, packed in storage wherever the FBI
stores such records."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 09:39 AM

Thanks for posting that information about that program, Charlie.

It would be great if you wrote a book or books about that project.

And I'd also love to read more about your Peace Corps experiences in Ethiopia. Are there any Mudcat threads in which you and others write about your experiences serving in the Peace Corps or living in other countries?

Such a thread would be an interesting and educational read.

Hint. Hint.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 10:09 AM

yes and so is living in most parts of the world that celebrate "whiteness".

Mudcat is informed beneficially by people of color and I fervently hope they participate
here. I have learned so much from people who are different in customs and cultures from me and I relish their input.

The beauty of Mudcat is that it allows for this information to take place. The world is a difficult place for people who esteem peaceful solutions to problems and true brotherhood and sisterhood based on being members of the human family.

There are too many who want to make life uncomfortable for others because of their
self-righteous motivations. Too many people want to grab for the gun instead of using their reason.

Mudcat is a solution. We can share all views here and discuss them about music or ideas in general. Mudcat is true cyber-democracy and that's why I keep posting here.

There is a definite place here for people of color and other cultures and customs.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 01:42 PM

This has been, to me, a "feel-good" thread. Despite some disagreement on the nature and effects of racism, we can all come together in denouncing the idea of condemning a person, to invert a phrase of Dr King's, for the color of his skin rather than the content of his character. Where the lines become more clearly drawn and the disagreements more pronounced is in the realm of personal responsibility. Is an individual ultimately responsible for his own actions, or are his actions primarily determined by his environment? Is the black drug dealer a bad person because of his lack of regard for his fellow man or is he merely doing the best he can in an environment where only the strong survive? Is the southern white racist a selfish, hate-filled ogre, or is he also the victim of the constant negative input of his family, friends, and the tainted nature of his own institutions and language?

I introduced the Jena thread a while back, and the conversation became argumentative very quickly. When dealing with specific scenarios involving race, our tendency toward general statements about racial harmony and even racism begin to erode, and underlying anger and frustrations often begin to emerge.

But I have to say, both kinds of dialogue are vital in our attempts to unravel a very complex and thorny issue. We need threads like this to reinforce the fact that we do care very much, about the issue and about each other. We need threads like the Jena thread to air views which are divergent, and often confrontational. In both cases, the act of participating in such conversations is in itself a step forward, and a world away from the static and stratified views of the world we grew up in.

Like all of you, I'm still learning.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 01:54 PM

"19th, I think."   Yup. Thanks for the correction. Just a typo on my part.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 02:16 PM

Here's a link to the BS: The Jena 6 Controversy thread:


thread.cfm?threadid=104934

****

Thanks, Lonesome EJ for starting that thread, and for participating in the discussion on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 05:57 PM

Big Mick, it seems that I cannot comment on any serious subject without receiving a slapdown attempt from you.

I will make one last attempt to put across my point.

While you may be factually correct in your comments about the existing situation, your comments about people like myself are in the main insulting and unhelpful.

Nobody on this planet can step up and truthfully state that he/she has been put down, debased, or discriminated against by me on grounds of race, creed, or colour, or to the best of my knowledge on any other grounds.

My suggestions were intended for all the protagonists (as I very clearly stated). Putting it plainly, they are:-

1. Remember the past by all means, but stop wallowing in it, and stop using it as an excuse for perpetuating hatred and a desire for revenge.

2. Deal with the present. It's not perfect but it IS what we've got. USE it to improve what YOU want to see improved, and

3. Raise a belief in a future free of the emotional roadblocks of the past. Then make it happen.

Nothing good ever grew out of bitterness and hatred. Nothing bad ever grew out of co-operation and respect.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 06:07 PM

"So then, John, perhaps you could enlighten me as to exactly why, in your opinion, we continue to see ongoing problems of inequality in education levels, higher crime rates, higher levels of single parenthood, etc, etc?"


Each of the three things (before the etc's) are for different, if sometimes connected reasons.

The reason we see inequity in education is because the notion of diversity supplanted the better notion of succeeding. Again, Orientals are AT LEAST as different from the "white" majority and yet there has been no need to accomodate to them to make them succeed in our schools. None. In fact, the very affirmative action that we are told is necessary for minority participation and success is proven totally unnecessary by the oriental experience.

Blacks were actually succeeding quite well through the first half of the twentieth century -- developing a strong middle class in the north, west and midwest, and educationally excelling as well ..... until we started selling some stupid notion that liberal arts and sciences education was inherently "white" and needed, instead, to diversify to include some notion of diverse cultures (as if that had ANYTHING to do with successful education).

The crime rates and illegitimate births correlate directly to the extent to which personal responsibility has been added (or not) to governmental distribution of wealth. And no race or ethnicity has EVER so thoroughly bought into the myth that all wealth is created by -- and therefore distributed by -- the government than has the American black. Every other race or ethnicity that has succeeded in the US has understood that wealth is created by market production, confiscated (by taxation) in part by the government for the social good, and distributed for various governmental functions -- care of underpriviledged only being ONE of those functions.

As to the distinct appearance piece, you mistate my position. It in no way alibi's the ongoing institutional racism against people of color. The skin tone issue is simply one of the factors that made it harder for African descended folks to integrate into society.

And I'm saying, "Why?". Why, when there are other races at least equally distinct -- orientals being but one of them -- do the other races not require the help of the government to succeed in our economy and culture? It isn't because of the relative poverty from which they came -- all the other ethnicities (that have succeeded) can point to AT LEAST as much poverty as the American black.

Blacks are no more different in appearance than are Japanese, Chinese, Indian, etc. NONE of them has ever asked for, or required ANYTHING EVEN REMOTELY LIKE "affirmative action". Why does the American black require it?

My answer is simple and non-racist. They don't require it. There is NOTHING inferior about the American black. ANYTHING that the American oriental, white, jew, hispanic..... ...anything anyone else can do, the American black can do. It is NOT an inferior race. In point of fact (to get pedantic) it is not a race (nor is oriental, caucasian, or anything else we've refered to by the VERY unscientific term "race").


The institutional racism you lay at the feet of the left surely has some basis in fact (see my first post),but acting as though the right has no culpability is the modern day equivalent of "washing ones hands". Racism is a scourge, perpetuated in this country on folks of color primarily, that should not simply be something that we "wash our hands clean of". It must be systematically, and proactively, rooted out. Focus on the word proactively, as it is the most important word in the sentence.

The right says not to do anything about racism. The Constitution already covers all that's necessary. And, perversely, everything that the American left has EVER done to try to address racism has actually backfired and served to promote it. First, as I pointed out above, the left is inherently racist in it presumption of black inferiority, and second, it creates an unconsitutional inequity that feeds the racism -- not of the "right" -- but of racists.

Racism toward blacks is dying a natural death. We are becoming so intermingled that it is an impracticality. Whites are rapidly becoming a minority (actually already are, depending on how you count it). And blacks are HUGELY successful and admired. And we're about to elect a black president.

The only thing keeping racism alive "institutionally" are politicians and "black leaders" who have their power and livelihood tied up in it. Curiously, no other race or ethnicity has "leaders" -- the corellary of a Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton or....

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 06:54 PM

"And no race or ethnicity has EVER so thoroughly bought into the myth that all wealth is created by -- and therefore distributed by -- the government than has the American black. Every other race or ethnicity that has succeeded in the US has understood that wealth is created by market production, confiscated (by taxation) in part by the government for the social good, and distributed for various governmental functions -- care of underpriviledged only being ONE of those functions."

I should have made it more clear that the above statement applies to the unsuccessful. The successful always have understood the market realities and succeeded all along.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 06:58 PM

I'm posting the following as a comment on the use of "Oriental." I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but I do think it is of interest:

By Alan Hu
Usenet Posting, circa 1993

OK, so a long time ago, people in Europe used to refer to everything to the east of them as the Orient, including for example the Middle East, since orient means "east". So far, so good. This mysterious area was the source of all sorts of wonderful things like silk and spices, so the Europeans attached also sorts of exotic, mysterious connotations to the Orient. As Europeans gained a better concept of world geography, they eventually used "the Orient" and "Oriental" to refer to East and Southeast Asia, where people look "Oriental" in our current usage.

Anyway, that usage of "Oriental" has survived a long time, and it still frequently carries all of the exotic/foreign/inscrutable/mysterious connotations. These connotations happen to coincide with many of the stereotypes held of Asian Americans. Furthermore, by definition, the word "Oriental" is Eurocentric, referring to things east of Europe. For these reasons, some Asian American activist types decided that "Oriental" was a Bad Word, and that "Asian" was more accurate, less Eurocentric, and less loaded with strange connotations. No big deal, right?

Well, a lot of people didn't want to change their language usage. Some people grew up using "Oriental" and saw nothing wrong with the word. Others came from other parts of the world, where hip-activist-American-English-linguistic-evolution hadn't hit. Still others never encountered anyone aware of Asian American politics, so had never heard of this word usage change. Some people were exploiting the exotic mysticism connotations and resisted change. (Very early on, you would see articles about business and trade in Asia, whereas the travel articles would talk about visiting the Exotic Mysterious Orient.) Finally, some people were convinced that this was a typical case of left-wing-politically-correct-thought-police-mind-control (which it was) and decided in typical right-wing-politically-correct-knee-jerk-response that the word usage change was intrinsically evil and had to be resisted at all costs.

For a while, therefore, you could identify a person as being an American who was aware of and sympathetic to Asian American politics by his/her word choice. Now, however, many exploitation-types have realized that saying "Asian" instead of "Oriental" is the cool thing to do, without changing any of their stereotypes and misconceptions. (You can force a person to change his/her behavior, but you can't force a change in thought.)

The upshot is to use whatever word you feel most comfortable with, or that makes your listeners most comfortable, but don't be surprised if someone takes offense. And in the time you save by not worrying about word-usage, try to make the world a better place.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 08:37 PM

Readers of this thread may be interested in checking out the website Asian Nation. That multipage website includes a blog and front page articles.

Here's an excerpt from a front page Asian Nation article:

http://www.asian-nation.org/model-minority.shtml


The Model Minority Image

"In a lot of ways, Asian Americans have done remarkably well in achieving "the American dream" of getting a good education, working at a good job, and earning a good living. So much so that the image many have of Asian Americans is that we are the "model minority" -- a bright, shining example of hard work and patience whose example other minority groups should follow. However, the practical reality is slightly more complicated than that....

Once in a great while, statistics don't lie. It is true that in many ways, Asian Americans have done very well socially and economically...

[inserts chart of income/college education and other demographics of Americans who are Black, White, Hispanic/Latino, Native American, and Asian American]

These numbers tell you that among the five major racial/ethnic groups in the U.S., Asian Americans have the highest college degree attainment rate, rates of having an advanced degree (professional or Ph.D.), median family income, being in the labor force, rate of working in a "high skill" occupation (executive, professional, technical, or upper management), and median Socioeconomic Index (SEI) score that measures occupational prestige. Yes, in these categories, Asians even outperform Whites. Asian Americans seem to have done so well that magazines such as Newsweek and respected television shows such as 60 Minutes proclaim us to be the "model minority.

They point to statistics like this and say how well Asian Americans are doing in society and that we've overcome past instances of prejudice and discrimination without resorting to political or violent confrontations with Whites. Further, our success should serve as an example for other racial/ethnic minority groups to follow in their own quest to overcome barriers in their way to achieving the American dream.

Many people go even further and argue that since Asian Americans are doing so well, we no longer experience any discrimination and that Asian Americans no longer need public services such as bilingual education, government documents in multiple languages, and welfare. Further, using the first stereotype of Asian Americans, many just assume that all Asian Americans are successful and that none of us are struggling.

On the surface, it may sound rather benign and even flattering to be described in those terms. However, we need to take a much closer look at these numbers. As we will see, many other statistics show that Asian Americans are still the targets of racial inequality and institutional discrimination and that the model minority image is a myth.

WHEN GOOD NUMBERS GO BAD
Again, we need to remember that not all Asian Americans are the same. For every Chinese American or South Asian who has a college degree, the same number of Southeast Asians are still struggling to adapt to their lives in the U.S...

The results show that as a whole Asian American families have higher median incomes than White families. However, this is because in most cases, the typical Asian American family tends to have more members who are working than the typical White family...

SUCCESS" MAY ONLY BE SKIN-DEEP
Another telling statistic is how much more money a person earns with each additional year of schooling completed, or what sociologists call "returns on education." One of the first in-depth studies that looked at per capita income between Asian Americans and other racial/ethnic groups came from Robert Jiobu and is cited in Asian Americans: An Interpretive History by Sucheng Chan. Using this measure, research consistently shows that for each additional year of education attained, Whites earn another $522.

That is, beyond a high school degree, a White with 4 more years of education (equivalent to a college degree) can expect to earn $2088 per year in salary. In contrast, returns on each additional year of education for a Japanese American is only $438. For a Chinese American, it's $320. For Blacks, it's even worse at only $284. What this means is that basically, a typical Asian American has to get more years of education just to make the same amount of money that a typical White makes with less education...

Recent research from scholars such as Timothy Fong, Roderick Harrison, and Paul Ong, to name just a few, continues to confirm these findings that controlling for other variables, Asian Americans still earn less money than Whites with virtually equal qualifications. Once again, for each statistic that suggests everything is picture-perfect for Asian Americans, there is another that proves otherwise...

Another point is that even despite the real successes we've achieved, Asian Americans are still significantly underrepresented in positions of political leadership at the local, regional, state, and federal levels (despite the successes of a few individuals such as Norman Mineta and Elaine Chao) -- just like Blacks, Latinos, and American Indians. In the corporate world, Asian Americans are underrepresented as CEOs, board members, and high-level supervisors -- just like Blacks, Latinos, and American Indians.

This is not to say that there aren't Asians Americans out there who are quite successful and have essentially achieved the American dream. As their socioeconomic attainment levels clearly illustrate for example, Asian Indians consistently outperform not only other Asian ethnic groups but Whites in several achievement measures, sometimes by a large margin. And of course, you'll find plenty of examples of Asian Americans who are quite affluent and successful, and as Asian Americans, we should rightly feel proud of these examples of success.

The point is that just because many Asian Americans have "made it," it does not mean that all Asian Americans have made it. In many ways, Asian Americans are still the targets of much prejudice, stereotypes, and discrimination. For instance, the persistent belief that "all Asians are smart" puts a tremendous amount of pressure on many Asian Americans. Many, particularly Southeast Asians, are not able to conform to this unrealistic expectation and in fact, have the highest high school dropout rates in the country.

Asian Americans are also increasingly becoming the targets of hate crimes. In fact, research shows that Asian Americans are the fastest growing victims of hate crimes in the U.S. Asian Indians and other successful Asian Americans may have extraordinary levels of socioeconomic achievement but it's very unlikely that many of them will say that they no longer experience discrimination because of their Asian ethnicity.

Ultimately, the process of achieving socioeconomic success among Asian Americans is very complex. There are many examples of affluence and prosperity within the Asian American population but in many ways, we still face the same types of racism, social inequality, and institutional discrimination that other groups of color face. Therefore, the image that the entire Asian American community is the "model minority" is a myth."

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Rowan
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 08:52 PM

Coincidental to the introduction of Asians into this discussion, I woke up this morning to a discussion on the radio on Australia's involvement in the construction of a global line of colour.

The person being interviewed on that link is one of two authors of a book that has apparently only recently been published (and I haven't yet read it) but the bit that sparked my attention from half asleep to slightly more awake was (what I thought to be) the assertion that the rise of democracy as a mode of government, in the second half of the 19th century, was follwed by a rise in paranoia on the part of a group of countries that "identified themselves as white", viz the US, Britain and its major "white" dominions (Australia, South Africa, Canada and New Zealand), and the European colonial powers such as France, Germany, Holland and Belgium; the Iberians and the Russians were left out, apparently.

It was this group that saw the need to protect themselves and defined "colour" as a discriminating criterion, with themselves as being white and in control. According to (my recollection of) the interview, this was tested by the Japanese defeating Russia in the 1904-5 war and raising the question "Were the Japanese 'white'?" And, by inference, "us"? The answer was "No!" *

There was a lot more, some of it quite damning of Australian govt behaviour, some of which was apparently quite influential in the US but I'll have to take the time to both listen to the audio properly and go and read the book. This post is just a 'heads up' to a relevant item and I put the link in so that those of you who are interested can check it out independently.

* The Japanese treatment of the Ainu from Hokkaido as well as occidentals (quite "intitutionalised") adds another layer to our discussion but is best kept for a separate thread, I think.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 09:03 PM

Azizi-

Nice work! And should we also provide links to the "yellow peril" diatribes that were printed in the newspapers in the late 19th and early 20th century? How can "enlightened Mudcatters" be so ignorant of our history of ethnocentrism? It boggles my mind. But than I haven't a clue what has been taught in the last 20 years.

Other Mudcatters-

Institutional racism as practiced in the States against Black Americans is still alive and well, in my opinion. A Black middle class may be growing but too many are still trapped in substandard housing, substandard schools, and poorly paid jobs. There will always be a tendency by some to "blame the victims" for their plight but I can't imagine that proposition would hold up under any kind of social research scruntiny. Certainly, we all know individuals who have given up or pray on their own but that is not the general situation, nor should it be,

I would love to parachute a couple of our self-righteous posters into a Black urban ghetto and observe how long they would survive. But that would be oh so wrong!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 09:27 PM

Thanks Charley.

I found that website and that article with the help of the Google search engine.

Btw, though I believe that we should pray, in your last post I think the word you meant was prey.

Those are words have entirely different meanings, wouldn't you say?

And speaking of words, with regard to group names, in my opinion, the preferences of the group should be most important in determining which group referent others should use.

With regard to the referents "Asian" or "Oriental", there seems to be little doubt that while specific nationalities within that group refer to themselves by their nationality {i.e. Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Pakistani etc}, the catch-all group name that is preferred by most people who belong to that diverse racial group is
"Asian American".

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: John Hardly
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 06:20 AM

Hey Charley,

Why the hell can't a topic be discussed -- with differing opinions -- without phrases like "Self-righteous" being accused? Why not just make your point without impugning my character?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 06:41 AM

True enough, it can, and it should. But language like "the American black" doesn't really help matters. We need to read over what we have written and take out the stuff that is insulting, including personal abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: John Hardly
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 08:53 AM

why, mofh? "Black" was the nomenclature, chosen by blacks, with which to repectfully refer to the race.

And American Blacks -- as a race -- are not "Arican Americans". Certainly they are not in the context of this thread. For one thing, it's not at all descriptive. It doesn't distinguish Canada from USA from Mexico, or, for that matter, does it even distinguish North from Central from South America. And that's without even mentioning how diverse Africa is (even moreso than N. America).

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 10:24 AM

You would, perhaps, prefer Bantu-Chicagoan? The "nomenclature" has shifted over time, and (IMHO) has a lot more to do with notions of political correctness than any preferences of the individuals concerned. At this instant in time, it is African-American, although I'm not entirely sure about the hyphen. "Black people" is used by those who don't keep up, even though it isn't particularly descriptive, but I don't think "the blacks" has been in common use since about 1864.