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BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:34 PM 101 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Charley Noble Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:40 PM There are more good posts than not on this thread. Several in fact that are very thoughtful, and only a few that I would consider flippant, or appaling. Not a bad catch at all. Actually, it seems as if Mudcat is a forum where difficult questions can be discussed, if someone whom people respect raises the question. It doesn't mean that the process of discussion is easy but there is a process. I'm not sure I would have the courage to raise such a question but I certainly admire those who do, and who actually respond in kind to what is said. I don't suppose there is a pub in Pittsburgh where folks hang out singing old steamboat songs? Guess I'll have to find another excuse to pay a visit. Or we could create another virtual pub! Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Beer Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:40 PM 102 and I shouldn't say this but since I've noticed a little thing on really no importance I guess I better. 102 post and still no Guest appearance. Not even Guest guest who usually has lots of interesting things to say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Azizi Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:40 PM you are not the only black member here, i know of at least 2 others. -Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull That's actually kinda funny. Thanks for making me smile. As to being famous for being black, I really don't think that's my motivation for periodically raising the topic of race on Mudcat's discussion forum. As to blaming day to day problems I may encounter on my being Black, nope. That's not me either. And as to race not being relevant here on Mudcat, I think the very fact that this subject keeps coming up {and not just in threads I start or posts that I write} means that it's a topic that Mudcat members and guests feel the need and/or the desire to talk about... Maybe that's because race is a part of life that needs to be addressed and needs to be worked through until it becomes as irrelevant as you think it is. But how do we get to the point where race is irrelevant? Perhaps there are times that race does need to be talked about. Perhaps talking about it helps people to work through what old ways of thinking. But Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull, I agree with you that I am to blame for feeling that I have to respond to others' comments about race. I agree that I have talked about race too much on Mudcat. From now on, I will not talk about race as much as I have before-unless my spirit moves me to do so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Bobert Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:41 PM BTW, I'm not too sure where this "people of color" came from... When it comes down to it white people are really the "colored folk"... (That is heresy, Bobz...) No, not really... White is made from combining all of the basic colors: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet... You mix them colors allo together and you get white... Black, howver, is an absence of color... So to all my white friends here: you is da' colored people!!! Awww, come on... Ol' Bobertz jus bored watching "I Love Lucy" repeats and laying on heat pads so I figured the least I could do was st5ep in here once in a while and have a little fun... But really, I apologize because I really don't have the stamina to sit here and read everythin' that folks is sayin' and so wahtever I say here I'd fully understand it folks just glossed over it and went back to what, if I know MizziAzizzi, is one fine head twister... So to all my colored friends here, it's time for this ol' hillbilly to get back on the couch... Now back to the more serious concerns at hand... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:46 PM "thats actually kinda funny" wahts funny about it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: GUEST,lox Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:49 PM Race will never be irrelevant! It's how we as humans mature and evolve to deal with our differences that matters. Sex will always be an issue too. And apparently there are some other issues that are important but I can't remember them now ... ;-) Because when we meet people different from us we naturally and bilogically get a little wary - like children. But also, like children, when we are shown that there is no reason to fear someone just because their appearance is unfamiliar, we can learn to play together nicely. When gangs of kids get together and start bullying other kids for their differences than that's where the problems start and where the rest of us need to be ready to teach them alesson - hopefully that they don't need to be that way - butif necessary another more memorable one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Rowan Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:52 PM Race is a serious subject and sometimes I don't always want to be serious. It's not that I'm uncomfortable talking about race on Mudcat. But particularly when I'm at low energy, it's more than a notion to talk about something that in the best of times can be energy draining. For me, it's merely one of several "serious subjects" but I suspect I can say that without getting too fussed because the minority I identify with is not, routinely, being disparaged or singled out in some way. Having been in various 'minority' contexts I suppose I've learned to deal with it by being selective about which provocations I'll respond to. Some threads I'll avoid because their title is clearly associated (in my mind) with discussions of issues that have never been resolved in the past and their emotional load is such that resolution is unlikely; I'll save my efforts for areas likely to be more productive. Every now and then, however, a discussion will throw up a little bombshell, similar in effect to that on Azizi of a comment on "race". Is it 'oversensitive' of me to react? Perhaps it is, sometimes. But, if I categorise it as 'requiring a riposte', I've noticed over the years that rational arguments rarely change much about emotionally-charged beliefs. But I feel obliged to make the effort, just in case it'll work this time, and the imperative to respond is stronger when a lack of challenge to the proposition is likely to disadvantage or hurt someone. But, unless it's possible my post can extend the scope of the discussion in some way I'm really just cluttering up bandwidth. On that basis, race is not relevant here, we all folk music lovers, just forget about your race/colour and get on with it while perhaps an admirable aspiration with one grain of truth, misses the point of much of the discussion. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:55 PM "race needs to be addressed" exectlty waht needs addresing? we are here to discuss folk music. people dont make a thread £wahts "your favouite folk song?" (PS i;m black), or PS I;m white, or chinese or watever"). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: GUEST,lox Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:56 PM Reverend it's funny because Azizi knows she isn't the only black person on mudcat. And it's funny because it suggests she should stop moaning cuz there's at least two others. (so what's she moaning about) And it would have been funny if you intended to be funny ... ... but it's funniest because you didn't ... but only in the darkest way ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:59 PM oh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: M.Ted Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:59 PM "race is not relevant here, we all folk music lovers, just forget about your race/colour and get on with it." Is there any way we could get you, jOhn from Hull, to forget about that routine of yours? I thought not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: GUEST,lox Date: 25 Feb 08 - 09:01 PM And reverend, If you wish to discuss folk music you are free to. This thread is about race ... ... if you don't believe me then read it back - you'll find I'm right. So who is where to discuss what? You joined a thread about race to discuss folk music? Now that's funny! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 25 Feb 08 - 09:02 PM some people think too much. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Bill D Date: 25 Feb 08 - 09:07 PM You just THINK we think! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: GUEST,lox Date: 25 Feb 08 - 09:09 PM Stop it Bill ... you're making me laugh ... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 25 Feb 08 - 09:09 PM gest lox-you're an idiot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: GUEST,lox Date: 25 Feb 08 - 09:10 PM kiss kiss |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: M.Ted Date: 25 Feb 08 - 09:33 PM What is funny is that Sir jOhn from Hull, the man who starts threads with titles like"Are Muslims Rubbish?" and, on a more serious plane, "Are Tortoises Rubbish?", is suddenly fussy that this should all be about folk music. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 25 Feb 08 - 10:58 PM Trust me girl
Re: Emotionally Difficult for Me
Dis ain non ALL "White Bread" forum.
Sincerely,
When ah fers cum in, dey branded me wid sin.
Look Girl - there are ten million websites that we can post to.
The Mudcat - is Wonder Bread.
Ninty-Five percent posted here - ten years ago - would have been removed as "S" aka "C"
Do NOT give up!!!
Life on the Mudcat - ain't no crystal stair - but posting does promise a hope "A bot" will pick it up...and inclusion into the heritage of the "American Folk Song Legacy" will be garned.
Azizi
Stick Around...suck up the gut and continue.
Your postings "Above The Line" are one of the last remaining pieces that made the old "Mudcat" great.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 25 Feb 08 - 11:03 PM Curious
No "mudcatters" of long history have checked into your thread.
Tuesday is my weekend off. So let me review and report....but it appears at first glance You DO Have a Bone To Pick.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Richard Bridge Date: 25 Feb 08 - 11:34 PM I thought I qualified as of "long history". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Amos Date: 25 Feb 08 - 11:41 PM "All skin, without coloring, would appear creamy white. Near-surface blood vessels add a blush of red. A yellow pigment also tints the canvas. Lastly, sepia-toned melanin, created in response to ultraviolet rays, appears black in large amounts. These four hues mix in different proportions to create the skin colors of all the peoples of Earth." LiveScience.com |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Gulliver Date: 25 Feb 08 - 11:45 PM Now I've read through this whole thread (and it's way past my bedtime). I never thought of Azizi as black until she responded (very nicely, but a bit long-windedly, but I've gotten used to that now) to a thread I started on songs against racism. I didn't know she was a woman until tonight. I'd like to say gender and skin colour make no difference to me (but they do, even if just a little). My interest in the topic is that my son, who grew up in another country, is coloured--his mother is Somalian (I'm Irish, by the way). As a result, I'm a bit sensitive to racist comments. Years ago I easily got into fights if I heard what I thought was a racist comment, and lost a couple of close friends as a result of their attitude (or my attitude). But then I've come to realize, well, no use going through life with a chip on your shoulder--people are going to do what they want to do, that's life, make the best of it, and my reply to a racist comment now is: Keep your comments to yourself, we're ALL God's children under heaven. In some ways I can feel for Azizi, but in other ways I want to say lighten up, don't go around brooding. There are so many people in the world, and no doubt on Mudcat, with really bad problems--health, financial, family, drugs, drink, etc.--to worry about. Your health is your wealth, and if you've got that consider yourself lucky and everything else falls into perspective. And on a lighter note, the Carolina Chocolate Drops are coming to Ireland, and all going well I'll be at their gig next Saturday. Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Slag Date: 26 Feb 08 - 12:02 AM You're black? I didn't know. Thanks for telling me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Slag Date: 26 Feb 08 - 12:13 AM So Art Brooks is a retired Army officer. That explains some things. That's got my prejudices up and running. I believe it was you that were cross-examining my authenticity as an Air Force Sergent. Yeah, that was a year or so ago. OK. The lifers were always fond of calling the new recruits "maggots" so I guess it was just natural that we called lifers "flies". Or was this just an Air Force thing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Gulliver Date: 26 Feb 08 - 12:14 AM Slag, if you're referring to me, no, I'm not black, maybe just a little green--but it's not easy being green ;-) Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Grab Date: 26 Feb 08 - 05:14 AM Thanks for the corrections, Azizi - I thought you did more of the Afican-tradition-promotion than you did. OK, not exactly a job then; more like a part-time semi-pro thing. So rather like most musicians then - never get rich doing what you enjoy best. :-) Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: John MacKenzie Date: 26 Feb 08 - 05:33 AM Is it just me, or does anybody else think twice before disagreeing with a 'person of colour', in case their complaint is regarded as being against their colour, and not their statements? Or even expressing dislike for someone of colour, in case someone says "You just don't like X, because he/she is black/yellow/brown" When really you dislike them because they're a PITA. I would find that a difficult situation,luckily it's not a common problem for me. Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Kweku Date: 26 Feb 08 - 05:38 AM Thanks Azizi for the compliments. And like I stated in the earlier posting to this thread, I don't bother about the fact that Mudcat is dominated by Western music and issues. But like I said it was established in the Western hemisphere and there is nothing much that can be done to change the situation(except to convince more people of color to join), which is quite difficult because most of my friends I encouraged to join find Mudcat rather boring. Some would join if the issues were broad based rather than skewed towards Western issues. Funny enough I don't know if Mudcat has posters in Asia and South America. So in a way I would rather say that mudcat is difficult for people of other continents outside the US,Canada and Western Europe. I do believe that with time Mudcat will have posters all over the globe and that would make it more "interesting". Because at least we would discuss the recent African Cup of Nations which recorded a record 99 goals and was hosted by my Motherland Ghana the gateway to Africa. "ayeeko" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: GUEST,harpgirl Date: 26 Feb 08 - 05:48 AM Hi Azizi I believe this is a challenging place to address issues about race from an African American standpoint. The variety of responses here is a good illustration! I don't have anything deep to say about it at the moment, but I'm glad you are smiling! Are you familiar with this song? A friend pointed it out to me and since I already knew and liked the melody and I'm immersed in an ethnography of Ida Goodson and the music she played I have been learning this song. But mainly I'm thinking about it and intend to do some more research about it. I'd like to hear what you have to say about it. Wasn't it Sean Combs that said he was most attracted to melody and the power it has? I find the power of melody in the early minstrel songs very compelling. Many of these melodies are imprinted in our collective musical brains, I find. PS The one time I tried a lighthearted approach to your bringing up race, I was misunderstood (a common experience for me), so I stopped addressing the issue. But more power to you. hg KINGDOM COMING (Henry Clay Work) Say, darkeys, hab you seen de massa, Wid de muff-stash on his face, Go long the road some time dis mornin' Like he gwine to leab de place? He seen a smoke, 'way up the ribber Whar the Linkum gunboats lay; He took his hat an' lef' berry sudden An' I spec he's run away! cho: De massa run? Ha ha! De darkeys stay? Ho ho! It mus' be now de kingdom comin' An' de year ob Jubilo! He six foot one way, two foot tudder, An' he weigh tree hundred pound; His coat so big, he couldn't pay de tailor, An' it won't go half way round. He drill so much dey call him Cap'n An' he get so drefful tanned, I spec he try and fool dem Yankees For to t'ink he's contraband! cho: De darkeys feel so lonesome, libing In de log-house on the lawn, Dey move dar t'ings to massa's parlour, For to keep it while he's gone. Dar's wine an' cider in de kitchen, An' de darkeys dey'll have some; I spose dey'll all be confiscated When de Linkum sojers come. cho: De oberseer he make us trouble An he dribe us round a spell; We lock him up in de smoke-house cellar Wid de key trown in de well. De whip is lost, de han-cuff broken But de massa'll hab his pay; He's ole enough, big enough, ought to known better Dan to went an' run away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 26 Feb 08 - 06:13 AM Is it because I is black? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Megan L Date: 26 Feb 08 - 06:52 AM In case anyone hasent noticed we are all damb well coloured we wid be right poor buddos if we wurny. Meg who is still auld and grumpy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Richard Bridge Date: 26 Feb 08 - 07:21 AM Sir jOhn - with remarks like that no wonder Azizi sometimes finds the 'cat abrasive. Musically speaking, however, officially the 'cat is a folk and blues forum, but there is little discussion of blues other than the occasional thread on Robert Johnson. The blues, plainly, is an American form, but it is specifically African-American form - to the extent that although I find it very attractive to listen to I have to concede late in my time at university, that it was inappropriate for me to perform it, that I would be a cuckoo in the nest. I am sometimes surprised that so few African-Americans either carry that form forward, or wish to discuss its past (on the performance front Keb Mo and Guy Davis being exceptions). I am not surprised that African-Americans are largely uninterested in discussions of English farm traditional songs, or songs about the Highland clearances, because those are not their roots and there is no obvious reason for those themes to be relevant to them. But conversely it is well known that there were both fighting ships and cargo ships largely crewed by black (intentional distinction from African-American, because some were African-British) crews and I would not be surprised if there were not African-French and African-Dutch crews as well. Both the shanties and the forebitters of those traditions I would expect to be relevant to African-Americans, as relating to a history in which they participated, and in which Lloyd remarks that they had a distinct musical tradition in that (he asserts) the white crews sang shanties in unison whereas the black ones sang in harmony - a divide still found (although not along racial lines) between shanty crews. The tradition generally of Americana I do not appreciate so clearly, but surely there are a wealth of traditional American songs of poverty and exploitation, both urban and rural, that although applying to communities that were often segregated, speak of a common experience. Perhaps the experiences of segregation and slavery divide the traditions there that are relevant to African-Americans from those that are not. I merely speculate. Morris dancing, however, and its relevance to the death-rebirth cycle (the tree in the bog, if you like) might seem potentially cross-cultural, but apart from the story of the Baobab tree (that everyone knows) I know very little about African traditions so maybe I am wrong. What I don't at all see is why modern African-Americans should find "below-the-line" threads irrelevant. Maybe we might ask what it is that the specifically African-American online communities (I think there was a mention above) do discuss. I remember a long time ago there was a very pretty girl indeed working in a law office of a firm in which I had just made partner, and she was in the word-processing department. Some light bandinage revealed by chance that she was a qualified Jamaican attorney but not admitted as an English solicitor despite some mutual recognition protocols. Anyway, I got her at least working as a paralegal for the firm, which would have counted as equivalent to "articles" (solicitor's apprenticeship) with a view to her eventual admission as an English solicitor, and we bumped into each other with some frequency. We both fancied each other - at times the air almost crackled - but neither of us could find a ready avenue of communication with each other (this was not helped by the fact that she was an enthusiastic Christian attending a Baptist church while I had a pretty jaded view of the Church of England). We both painfully and obviously walked on eggshells while hopefully trying to make conversation (so alas it never came to anything). I wonder if there is something like that here on the Mudcat (not helped by those so ready to make insensitive remarks). If we can square that circle, maybe we can also institute a protocol for painless communication between the Irish (and Irish-Americans) on the one hand, and the ENglish (and other British) on the other... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: BuckMulligan Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:11 AM Guest Gargoyle might review the history of some of the posters on this thread. Quite a few with pretty long histories on Mudcat have posted, meself included (over 10 years under 2 handles). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: GUEST,lox Date: 26 Feb 08 - 12:54 PM Bloody hell - it's Richard Madeley ... no ... it's Alan Partridge ... Here's a joke for you all: (for the record - I am Irish) There was a Thick Paddy who came over from Ireland to england looking for work. As is the case with all Thick Paddies (as we all know), he headed straight for a building site. When he arrived, he asked the foreman: "mister .. d'ye have a job" To which the foreman replied, "I do, but first I need you to tell me the difference between a joist and a girder". The Thick Paddy scratched his head and replied: "sure that's aisy ... Joist wrote Ulysses and Girder wrote faust". And Maya Angelou wrote "I know why the cage bird sings", And in the process she made it easy for the rest of us to understand why too. And enriched our lives by sharing her personal experience and her thoughts. Keep it coming Azizi ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Mr Red Date: 26 Feb 08 - 01:30 PM On here you can be any colour But I have to admit, not declaring any ethnic sensitivities doesn't solve all problems. There are plenty of people who tread on others' toes. The commercially motivated with spin. People with low self esteem who need agreement. Flamers who don't care. Unthinking folks. Hasty happytappers. But there are forums with worse communities for all of this. Then there is the archive of old songs that are what they are. Shanties have been bowdlerised because of it. When you are amongst friends it should be easier. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Donuel Date: 26 Feb 08 - 03:47 PM John, I always view OZ as being in tommorrow while the rest of us are still finsihing yesterday. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Rowan Date: 26 Feb 08 - 05:03 PM And we try, Donuel, not to be too smug about getting the sunshine first hand while you lot only get it after it's been used a bit. Oi! Quarcoo! What's all this So in a way I would rather say that mudcat is difficult for people of other continents outside the US,Canada and Western Europe stuff? You go and forget about us?! I'm just proving your point, actually. And, while others have addressed other aspects with wonderful sensitivity, I find Richard's post puts (what I've understood to be) the Mudcat enterprise into Azizi's context so elegantly that I want to applaud. There are various elements elsewhere that hint at it but Richard's could, alone, justify the thread going above the line. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Richard Bridge Date: 26 Feb 08 - 05:28 PM Flattery will get you Everywhere |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Georgiansilver Date: 26 Feb 08 - 06:03 PM My colour has caused me little dificulty on mudcat as most people don't know what colour I am!....Would it have made a difference if they had known? Who can tell? With regard to The right reverent Sir John from Hull...who I have had the pleasure to meet......his comment about "Is it because I's black" relates to a UK TV show where someone made a huge racial gaffe....Sir John was not being prejudiced in that comment.....UK readers will understand this. Best wishes, Mike. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: M.Ted Date: 26 Feb 08 - 06:41 PM Well, as long as UK readers understand... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Rustic Rebel Date: 26 Feb 08 - 07:36 PM I can't help but think of this when so many respond to the term color. I actually never have liked using the term "colored" myself but... author unknown A black man talks to a white man: When I was born I was black, When I grew up I was black, When I'm sick I'm black, When I go in the sun I'm black, When I'm cold, I'm black, When I'm scared, I'm black, When I'm sick, I'm black, When I die I'll still be black. But you: When you're born you're pink, When you grow up you're white, When you're sick, you're green, When you go in the sun you turn red, When you're cold you turn blue, When you're scared, you're yellow, When you're bruised, you're purple, and when you die you turn grey. And you have the nerve to call me colored. Peace. Rustic |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: robomatic Date: 26 Feb 08 - 07:54 PM My short comment: Race as a characteristic of a human being need not be important when we are corresponding with each other in a non-color venue where we can simply speak directly to a musical point. It of course is very important as a frame of reference regarding one's background, either from a view from the inside, or a view from the outside. From Azizi's past posts I've already realized that race is very important to (her-I think)and whether it is fair to assume that it is always the case ("Azizi posting, must be a question of race"), Azizi has always been articulate and engaging in such matters and I guess she's going to write when she's so moved. My background as American, Northerner, anglophile, francophile, slavophile, Jew, has definitely given me a realm of frames of reference which moderate what and when I write in. As for this thread, I've known black people at school, at work, casually, where race was a factor in our conversation, and of course, many cases where it wasn't. I guess I came to view black people to be as varied as any other folk, which means I've met all kinds of personalities under all kinds of skin. Found it all quite innerestin'. Bottom line, I'm often interested in what Azizi has to say, and this thread has already proved provocatively interesting. Well done. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Richard Bridge Date: 27 Feb 08 - 02:18 AM The tagline "Is it because I's black" was used by a tagline of a white Oxford-educated Jewish comedian, Sacha Baron Cohen, who also was the creative force behind a truly appalling film starring a character called "Borat" (in which he used a racial stereotype character to mock what he saw as unworthy Americana) This tagline was a catchphrase of his first famous funny character (I had to say that deadpan) called "Ali G". The "humour" lay in the fact that said comedian tried to dress and behave like a stereotypical street gangsta. Its apologists called it "post ironic". It always struck me as beneath contempt. The white Jewish comedian used the phrase (in character) whenever criticised. While he was happy to mock the beliefs of others, he was once seen to throw a huge wobbler in the Ivy when he found bacon in the mashed potato. He was, it seemed, happy to demand that others respected his racial and religious beliefs while taking the piss out of everyone else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: mg Date: 27 Feb 08 - 02:22 AM I certainly think it could be a dilemma, especially when people say something, intentionally or innocently, that is offensive. I would feel obliged to respond quickly and then having made my statement not feel compelled to ride it to the bitter end. Lots of short definitive statements over the course of time add up. And I think it is highly important to learn about the rich African, African-American, Jamacain..many other places..Creole..heritage, folklore, music. I also think there are many people in these groups who are somehow shamed into not liking certain types of music, dance, etc. because there is group pressure on them. That is not right. There are undoubtedly African Americans who love to polka and sing barber shop and watch Lawrence Welk reruns, and love the guy there that tap danced and was so soundly called names for doing that. It is all important so keep on doing it and others will follow. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: mg Date: 27 Feb 08 - 02:27 AM His Borat impersonation of struggling people, some of whom I am helping support buying cows etc. through Kiva.com..org? was disgusting, hateful, demeaning,...etc. etc. Oh don't watch it then. It's out there and people now have permission from all sorts of people to make fun of those who wear babushkas etc. But read the tipping point..a book I just encountered...there is a tipping point for immature, spiteful humor to be seen as socially unacceptable, and there is a tipping point for it to be seen as totally OK for certain groups. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Azizi Date: 27 Feb 08 - 03:24 AM Somewhat random thoughts: This is what happens when you're getting over the flu and have slept most of the day-it's 1:41 AM eastern standard time as I start this post, and I can't convince my brain that it should be dreaming. There are other things that I would prefer to be doing right now. But, alas! and alack! I have to settle for second or third best...which means I'm talking to myself, as well as to you guys and gals via the Internet. First of all, let me say muchas gracias, asante sana and thank you very much in all the other languages in the world for all the compliments that you have sent my way. And thank you very much for the interesting comments that have been posted on this thread. {I thought I saw two posts from gargoyle. I'm sorry they were deleted. He's such a character} I'd like to address a point that Richard Bridge wrote about in his 26 Feb 08 - 07:21 AM post: Richard, you wrote that you would expect "Both the shanties and the forebitters ...to be relevant to African-Americans, as relating to a history in which they participated" Unfortunately, based on my direct and indirect experiences, I think that not very many Black Americans know what "shanties" and "forebitters" are. It's only because I read about the song form "shanties" in several Mudcat threads on that topic that I {kinda} know what they are. But I'm sorry to say I don't know what a "forebitter" is {or was}. I'm assuming by the way you used the word "forebitters" that it's a type of song sung or chanted by sailors. Is this guess even in the right ball park? Here's two of my theories as to why many [most?] African Americans don't know {or do not know that we know} shanties, and other old timey songs and music genres such as 19th century Black secular dances songs {such as "Juba". Jim Along Josie", and "Hambone"}, and blues, and [even] jazz [Note that I've not included "spirituals" in this list; although my sense is that more African Americans nowadays know some spirituals, particular those Black people who go to some [Black] Baptist and some [Black] Methodist churches; but even those Black people only know a few specific spirituals. And, I would dare say that a large percentage of African American children, youth, and adults don't know any spirituals}. Needless to say, I think that's a low down {dirty} cryin shame. Briefly, and without supplemental comments that are too longwinded with apologies to Gulliver :o}, I think that among the reasons why African Americans appear to have largely turned their backs on or forgotten all about these music forms that were created by our ancestors are: 1} we don't want to be reminded of the horrendous experiences of slavery. In part this is because those centuries were so horrible and in part this is because slavery caused us {Black people} to believe the myth that until and unless we were educated in White men's and women's ways, we were less than not only White people, but less than any other people in the world. 2} {perhaps for the reasons stated above and other reasons} African Americans are forward looking people who prefer to {or are much better at} creating rather than preserving cultural indices. If this is so, I think it is because of nurture rather than nature {meaning, we have been taught to value creating, and improvising, and thinking out of the already existing box rather than valuing creative forms that our ancestors made} The proof is in the pudding {insert a better folk saying-perhaps an appropriate African proverb though I can't think of one right now, but absolutely not "It takes a village to raise a child"...but that doesn't fit what I was saying any way} Moving right along... Look how fast we {African Americans} create slang, and dances, and new clothing fashions, and new music forms. Colloquial words and expressions get old mighty quick among Black folks...{particularly when those Black created words and experessions are absorbed by mainstream-read White-society}. And African American social dances may change from month to month. New African American social music forms may stick around for a while {R&B, Hip-Hop}..But the specific recorded songs from those genres don't last too long. Most urban radio stations in the USA will occassionally play certain songs that were hits a couple of years ago, a couple of decades ago, or even longer {in the case of 70s, and 60s music. But rarely are any songs played from the 1950s or 1940s. Those songs are tooo old! The more I think about it, it's possible that this rejection of old cultural forms may extend to people in the Caribbean and possibly other Black people in Latin and South America. I'm unsure of this but I think it would be an interesting area of study. Certainly {Black} West Indians are known for creating new forms of music such as calypso, mento, ska, roots reggae, dancehall reggae, soca, reggaeton, kompa, etc. I'm wondering if once a new form is created, is the old form still treasured and is it still played on a daily basis or even on special occassions? In the first comment I posted on this discussion forum -in a thread about the African American spiritual "Kumbaya"- I wrote something like "Black people need to do better about protecting our heritage. In that comment I was referring to the theory that someone had posted that that song was of Afrikaans' origin. I still believe that we need to do better about protecting-claiming our past. We also need to do much better about learning about and honoring our culture-including those musical genres that Richard Bridge referred to in his post. ** Of course, this doesn't mean that we don't incorporate the old in the new, and we don't keep any of our old traditions...Of course, we do. But still, I think I'm on to something with these theories. But they may just be the cold medicine talking. But maybe not. Enough random thoughts... It is now 3:27 AM. And I'm outta here. Catch y'll later! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: Azizi Date: 27 Feb 08 - 03:43 AM mg, I just read your post of 27 Feb 08 - 02:22 AM. I think your comments add more layers to the comments I had just made about why I believe that many African Americans don't cherish our culture. Of course, another point is that we're not taught it in public schools. And perhaps-no-certainly our children and all other students should at the very least be introduced to these old music forms. But then again many American students dcn't even have vocal music classes and instrumental music is also rarely offerred. That said, it's on us all-regardless of race and ethnicity-to advocate for improved educational curriculums. And it's up to us all to learn about and value our culture-and learn about and value other cultures-and then share what we learn with others. That's where Mudcat comes in. ** Okay. I'm really leaving now. Good night-or Good day Whichever the case may be! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color From: s&r Date: 27 Feb 08 - 04:07 AM Shanties are songs sung while working where there is a need for rhythmic encouragement. Forebitters are songs sung to amuse or entertain during non working periods Stu |
