BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 09:41 AM

Linear indecent focusses mine!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 06:38 PM

Pardon my malapropism.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 06:40 PM

"Pardon my malapropism."

Sure. No reason a guy can't wear glasses and sit naked at the computer while he drinks hot coffee.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 06:59 PM

Here's an excerpt from an online article entitled "Seeing More Than Black & White (Latinos, racism, and the cultural divides)"
Compiled by: Glenn Welker

http://www.indigenouspeople.net/blackwht.htm

"...In a society as thoroughly and violently racialized as the United States, white-Black relations have defined racism for centuries. Today the composition and culture of the U.S. are changing rapidly. We need to consider seriously whether we can afford to maintain an exclusively white/Black model of racism when the population will be 32 percent Latino, Asian/Pacific American and Native American - in short, neither Black nor white - by the year 2050. We are challenged to recognize that multi-colored racism is mushrooming, and then strategize how to resist it. We are challenged to move beyond a dualism comprised of two white supremacist inventions: Blackness and Whiteness.

At stake in those challenges is building a united anti-racist force strong enough to resist contemporary racist strategies of divide-and-conquer. Strong enough, in the long run, to help defeat racism itself. Doesn't an exclusively Black/white model of racism discourage the perception of common interests among people of color and thus impede a solidarity that can challenge white supremacy? Doesn't it encourage the isolation of African Americans from potential allies? Doesn't it advise all people of color to spend too much energy understanding our lives in relation to Whiteness, and thus freeze us in a defensive, often self- destructive mode? ...

For a Latina to talk about recognizing the multi-colored varieties of racism is not, and should not be, yet another round in the Oppression Olympics. We don't need more competition among different social groupings for that "Most Oppressed" gold. We don't need more comparisons of suffering between women and Blacks, the disabled and the gay, Latino teenagers and white seniors, or whatever. We don't need more surveys like the recent much publicized Harris Poll showing that different peoples of color are prejudiced toward each other - a poll patently designed to demonstrate that us coloreds are no better than white folk. (The survey never asked people about positive attitudes.)

Rather, we need greater knowledge, understanding, and openness to learning about each other's histories and present needs as a basis for working together. Nothing could seem more urgent in an era when increasing impoverishment encourages a self-imposed separatism among people of color as a desperate attempt at community survival. Nothing could seem more important as we search for new social change strategies in a time of ideological confusion...

The discrimination, oppression and hatred experienced by Native Americans, Mexicans, Asian/Pacific Islanders, and Arab Americans are forms of racism. Speaking only of Latinos, we have seen in California and the Southwest, especially along the border, almost 150 years of relentless repression which today includes Central Americans among its targets. That history reveals hundreds of lynchings between 1847 and 1935, the use of counter-insurgency armed forces beginning with the Texas Rangers, random torture and murder by Anglo ranchers, forced labor, rape by border lawmen, and the prevailing Anglo belief that a Mexican life doesn't equal a dog's in value.

But wait. If color is so key to racial definition, as Fanon and others say, perhaps people of Mexican background experience racism less than national minority oppression because they are not dark enough as a group. For White America, shades of skin color are crucial to defining worth. The influence of those shades has also been internalized by communities of color. Many Latinos can and often want to pass for whites; therefore White America may see them as less threatening than darker sisters and brothers.

Here we confront more of the complexity around us today, with questions like: What about the usually poor, very dark Mexican or Central American of strong Indian or African heritage? (Yes, folks, 200-300,000 Africans were brought to Mexico as slaves, which is far, far more than the Spaniards who came.) And what about the effects of accented speech or foreign name, characteristics that may instantly subvert "passing?"

What about those cases where a Mexican-American is never accepted, no matter how light-skinned, well-dressed or well-spoken? A Chicano lawyer friend coming home from a professional conference in suit, tie and briefcase found himself on a bus near San Diego that was suddenly stopped by the Border Patrol. An agent came on board and made a beeline through the all-white rows of passengers direct to my friend. "Your papers." The agent didn't believe Jose was coming from a U.S. conference and took him off the bus to await proof. Jose was lucky; too many Chicanos and Mexicans end up killed.

In a land where the national identity is white, having the "wrong" nationality becomes grounds for racist abuse. Who would draw a sharp line between today's national minority oppression in the form of immigrant- bashing, and racism?

None of this aims to equate the African American and Latino experiences; that isn't necessary even if it were accurate. Many reasons exist for the persistence of the white/Black paradigm of racism; they include numbers, history, and the psychology of whiteness. In particular they include centuries of slave revolts, a Civil War, and an ongoing resistance to racism that cracked this society wide open while the world watched. Nor has the misery imposed on Black people lessened in recent years. New thinking about racism can and should keep this experience at the center."

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 07:07 PM

Correction:

"Seeing More Than Black & White (Latinos, racism, and the cultural divides)" was written by Elizabeth Martinez.

There's no indication on that page as to when Ms. Martinez wrote that article. However, there's a notation that the page was last updated 06/08/2004.

The hyperlink for that article contains a hyperlink for Indigenous Peoples' Literature compiled by Glenn Welker.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Janie
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 08:11 PM

Don't know this is the absolute best thread to post this to, but seems cogent to at least some of the discussions that have occurred here.

From Newsweek Magazine, March 3, 2008.

"How Your Brain Looks at Race"

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 10:42 PM

I've been meaning to give credit to the longish title of the 1975 play for colored girls who have considered suicide/when the rainbow is enuf for being the inspiration for the title that I wanted to use for this thread. That title, which was mentioned in my first post to this thread, is Why I Think Being An Active Poster On Mudcat Is Emotionally Difficult for Me And May Also Be Emotionally Difficult For Other Black People And Other People Of Color Who Have Publicly Acknowledged Their Racial And/Or Ethnic Identity At One Time Or More Than One Time While Posting On This Forum. I didn't set out to pattern the title for this thread after the title of that play. It just happened. But I let it happen because from the onset I wanted there to be some element of appropriate lightheartedness in my approach {and I was hoping} others' approach to this very serious subject. And there have been some lighthearted moments in this discussion, though it's to be expected that the more serious comments would outnumber the lighthearted {should I say "witty"?} ones.

Since I've introduced that play, let me take this opportunity to provide some information about it:

"for colored girls who have considered suicide/when the rainbow is enuf" is an Obie winning play which was written by the African American female playwright Ntozake Shange. here is the wikepedia article about that play. Here's an excerpt of that article:

"Structurally, For Colored Girls is a series of twenty poems — referred to as a "choreopoem" — performed through a cast of nameless women, each known only by a color: Lady in Yellow, Lady in Purple, and so forth. The poems deal with love, abandonment, rape, and abortion. The performances of the nine actresses are equally focused on their specific stories; e.g., Lady in Blue's visceral account of a woman who chooses to abort her baby; Lady in Red's horrifying tale of domestic abuse. The performances are sharp and bone-chilling. Shange's own name means "she who walks like a lion" in isiXhosa, and her writing doesn't pull any punches when it comes to these hard-hitting issues. Her dealings with the hardships of physical and emotional abuse, the strength of unity, and the tragedy of loss have a focus and passion that has made the play and its incarnations last a generation".

-snip-

Also, here's an excerpt of that play from another online source, http://www.enotes.com/for-colored :

"for colored girls who have considered suicide/when the rainbow is enuf is a choreopoem, a poem (really a series of 20 separate poems) choreographed to music. Although a printed text cannot convey the full impact of a performance of for colored girls..., Shange's stage directions provide a sense of the interrelationships among the performers and of their gestures and dance movements.

The play begins and ends with the lady in brown. The other six performers represent the colors of the rainbow: the ladies in red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and purple. The various repercussions of "bein alive & bein a woman & bein colored is a metaphysical dilemma" are explored through the words, gestures, dance, and music of the seven ladies, who improvise as they shift in and out of different roles. In the 1970s, when Ntozake Shange herself performed in for colored girls..., she continually revised and refined the poems and the movements in her search to express a female black identity. Improvisation is central to her celebration of the uniqueness of the black female body and language, and it participates in the play's theme of movement as a means to combat the stasis of the subjugation. In studying this play in its textual, static format one should, therefore, keep in mind the improvisational character of actual performance and realize that stasis is the opposite of what Shange wanted for this play. In fact, in her preface she announces to readers that while they listen, she herself is already "on the other side of the rainbow" with "other work to do." She has moved on, as she expects her readers to do as well".

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 02:45 AM

two points

songs about the highland clearances have plenty of relevance for many black people. many jacobites were transported as slaves - that's why so many West Indian families have highland names.

lots of violence and mayhem in folksongs, and gangsta rap - so it seems. Violence has always been seen as an interesting subject for a song. its perhaps a way we can confront and address our concerns.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 04:28 AM

I am not in a position to speak from personal experience but a university friend of mine, Ajit Deshpande, visited the USA in the late 60s and told me when he came back that he did not receive the racist treatment that I had expected he would. He said he thought the reason was that although he had brown skin and dark eyes (he was from the Indian continent) his facial features were sharp. His impression was that the vast preponderance of racial prejudice in the USA was directed to those with what we would then have called "negroid features". I am sorry to say I don't know if there is a currently acceptable term for "negroid features".

I realise that this is purely anecdotal, and I also realise that native Americans and South Americans and Asiatics and others are today discriminated against in the USA and elsewhere, but I suspect that what Aj saw may not wholly have vanished.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 05:52 AM

Caveat: I haven't read all of the 300+ postings on this thread. I read the first 50 or so, then whipped down through them, stopping every now and again.

But what I found was that several people did something which is - if you'll excuse me using strong language - outrageous.

They said: "What you experience is not reality".

Azizi, thanks for saying what you're experiencing. I grew up in a racist society, and still notice people's race much more than is relevant. Though less so, considerably less so, now that black people are living in Ireland in increasing numbers.

But it still blindsides me at times. Last week I was in London and wandered curiously into a Quaker Meeting House and sat in the hallway, watching through the glass window in the door of the main room as mothers and teachers played a learning game with toddlers.

I was astonished to see that two of the teachers were dark-skinned - from a Pakistani or Caribbean background, probably. (And the fact that I'd think about that, where I wouldn't bother about the background of someone identifiably 'white', shows that I'm still regarding dark-skinned people as 'other'.)

Black Quakers? What?? Then I started laughing to myself at the stupidity of what I was thinking.

Anyway, I'm wandering. Yes, Mudcat does seem rather bleached, now that you mention it. What about dragging all your black musical friends in and getting them to drag theirs in? The Cat could do with some variety of knowledge and experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 06:51 AM

I think I have just discovered what has bugged me about this thread from the start.

It's the title!

Azizi said she wanted a longer and more explanatory title but due to space restrictions she settled for " Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color" that is a statement, and as such, it is at least impossible to prove, if not totally incorrect.

I think Azizi wanted to point out that she has encountered difficulties, and wondered if others of colour [if any] found similar problems.

On that basis I would like to see the title changed to "Is Mudcat difficult for people of colo(u)r?" , This would change it from a statement to a question, and in view of most subsequent posts, fit the thread better.

I also wonder what question one would have to put in a search engine to discover this thread, and I don't think it wouldn't be a folkie person asking it.

Anyway, just a thought in passing, as whatever it's called, it's a thought provoking thread.

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 09:54 AM

IMHO, a number of the postings here would tend to support the OP's statement and indeed later explanations.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 09:57 AM

So it's difficult for ALL people of colour Richard?
That's what the title seems to suggest to me, and I can't see how that case can be made. Indeed I hope/believe, that it's not true.

G.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 10:31 AM

I can see how some of the postings here would be likely to make the community seem unwelcoming to very many people of colour. Some people have a hide like a rhinoceros and are oblivious to any lack of welcome. You only have to read this thread to see. One of my own, due to lack of care in my wording, could have seemed to belittle the historical suffering of many African-Americans.

Walk a mile (etc).

Put it another way round. If this community is equally welcoming, why are so few African Americans, native Americans, Africans, West Indians, Asians, Orientals, indigenous Australasians, etc, posting here (or known to be posting here)? Can it simply be that our music is largely Anglocentric and that that is no attraction? If that were so, should we not see an increase in the number of non-anglos posting in BS, particualrly given the importance of race and gender issues in the Democratic primaries?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 10:48 AM

How many of those Mudcatters who are white anglo-centric, patronise web sites which cater for black music and culture, or Bhangra sites.
Who like myself loves Portuguese fado music and finds anything much about it on here?
Surely there must be an element of 'horses for courses' in a site like this, which is in itself catering for a minority.

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 12:04 PM

"Who like myself loves Portuguese fado music and finds anything much about it on here?"

Why don't you give it a go?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 12:07 PM

Various comments:

John 'Giok' MacKenzie, in your 08 Mar 08 - 06:51 AM you suggested changing the title of this thread to the question "Is Mudcat Difficult For People Of Color?" While I appreciate the suggestion, that title doesn't confer my basis for starting this thread-that is-my certainty that sometimes posting on this forum, and reading certain Mudcat threads is in fact difficult for me.
That means that
1. sometimes posting on Mudcat and/or reading Mudcat threads is not difficult for me

2. the difficulty may be sometimes because of my mis-interpretations and/or oversensitivity to certain topics by virtue of my racial background, my experiences, and/or my temperment

3. other people of color who are Mudcat members or guests may have less difficulty or no difficulties what so ever with posting on Mudcat or reading certain Mudcat threads

4. Mudcat threads which cause me difficulty may cause another person of color less difficulty than they cause me, or may not cause them any difficulty.

**

John 'Giok' MacKenzie, in that same 08 Mar 08 - 06:51 AM post you commented that "I also wonder what question one would have to put in a search engine to discover this thread, and I don't think it wouldn't be a folkie person asking it."

It seems to me that it would be helpful to have a "related threads" hyperlink listing for race/racism Mudcat threads just as there are related thread listings under the thread title of numerous other Mudcat threads. Because I think that such listings help folks access archived threads, I'll volunteer to identify some past Mudcat threads on race/racism and I'll provide hyperlinks to those individual threads within this thread.

**
With regard to the question, why aren't there more people of color {colour} posting on Mudcat, Richard Bridge asked "Can it simply be that our music is largely Anglocentric and that that is no attraction? If that were so, should we not see an increase in the number of non-anglos posting in BS, particualrly given the importance of race and gender issues in the Democratic primaries?"

Richard, one of the things that I've discovered about Mudcat is that it is what you make it. Because of the liberal definition of "folk music" and "folk culture" and because of Mudcat's easy to use, open posting structure, members and guests can start above the line threads and BS threads on almost any subject they want to. Therefore, the only reason why Mudcat remains anglocentric is because people who post here don't start threads on non-anglocentric music* and non-Anglo people {who one would presume would be more likely to start threads on non-anglocentric music-aren't aware of this forum, or choose not to post to this forum.

*John 'Giok' MacKenzie asked "Who like myself loves Portuguese fado music and finds anything much about it on here?" I don't know anything about Portuguese fado music. My assumption is that because it is in Portugal, and Portugal is a country in Europe, fado music would be considered "anglocentric music". But perhaps not. In any event, I agree with McGrath of Harlow's question to Giok
"Why don't you give it a go?"

And that question isn't rhetorical. In my opinion, some Mudcat threads are for the purpose of conversation/discussion and others are for the purpose of presenting information. Of couse, many threads are both}. Mudcat presents opportunities for sharing and learning.If there is a topic that most people don't know about, that doesn't mean that thread shouldn't be started. But it does mean that the original thread starter might be the only one posting to that thread. Just because only one person {or just a few people} post to a thread, doesn't mean that no one else is reading that thread or no one else will read that thread in the future.

As to why people of color may not post to BS threads-about race/racism and a host of other subjects, one reason why people post online is for the purpose of relaxation/enjoyment. If {When} a person perceives herself or himself to be "the only one" {of their race/ethnicity} posting on a forum, because of the attendent difficulties/challenges that may occur as a result of being a minority in that community {which we have discussed in this thread}, that person may not take advantage of the opportunity to "hang out" and post on that forum. Instead, that person may decide to spend their leisure time off-line, or on other forums which are more integrated or where mostly {or only} people of her or his race/ethnicity post.

As to JTT's comment "What about dragging all your black musical friends in and getting them to drag theirs in?", I take it that that comment was meant for all those posting on Mudcat who have friends who are Black {and other people of color}, whether they be musical {or non-musical}. I've tried to encourage people to visit and post on Mudcat. Not counting Quarcoo who has joined Mudcat but who regrettably I've only met online, I've not been successful in getting people I know to not only visit this website, but to continue coming to Mudcat and to post on this forum. However, I'm gonna continue trying to get more people of color to post on Mudcat. And I hope that other Mudcat members and guests will do so too.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 12:19 PM

Here is a link to a bunch of YouTube vids about fado.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 01:59 PM

I have compiled a list of mostly BS Mudcat threads about race/racism/ethnicity and/or anti-semitism. This listing was compiled using the listing of threads that I posted to since I joined Mudcat in September 2004. As such it does not include any threads prior to that date unless those threads were revived since then and I posted to them. It's important to emphasize that this may not be {probably isn't} a complete listing of Mudcat threads after 9/2004. However, as you will see, this list is looong.
And because it is much longer than I remembered, because of time constraints, I have to take back my statement that I will include hyperlinks to these threads. However, if a moderator wants me to create hyperlinks for the threads on this list, with the intent of putting some or all of them on one or more related thread list, I will do so as a project, and will continue to do so on an ongoing basis.

That said, in my next two posts to this thread, I'll provide URLs to the threads that I found. Needless to say, others are welcome to add any threads that I've missed to this listing.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 02:04 PM

Mudcat threads about race/racism/ethnicity and/or anti-semitism {Part I} Sept 2004-March 9, 2008

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=14506
Yellow Gal

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=107884
BS: In Memory: Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=106076
BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=105650
BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=105580
BS: Racism of top scientist?

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=104934
BS: The Jena 6 Controversy

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=104152
RE: Strange Fruit

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=101762
BS: Does Being Dark Matter?

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=102927
BS: Education, Race 'n Community...

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=103280
Tintin In The Congo

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=103194
BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=102703
BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=101955
BS: Australian Aborgines=Special Day

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=101934
Folklore: 1967 Aboriginal Referendum (Aus)

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=100865
BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=100788
BS: 'nappy headed hos' what does it mean?

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=98442
BS: The term Afro American?

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=100632
BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=99746
BS: Poverty in the USA

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=99545
BS: Cherokee Vote on Freedmen

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=98660
Subject: BS: Is this Racism?

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=87981
Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=25776
Advice Please? - use of offensive words in songs [has a listing of related threads]

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=95037
BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=96848
Looking for songs against racism

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Megan L
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 02:05 PM

Well if we got rid of the coos sharn and actaully talked FOLK music or blues we might no hiv tae pit up wie sic ravlins.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 02:08 PM

Mudcat threads about race/racism/ethnicity and/or anti-semitism {Part II} Sept 2004-March 9, 2008


http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=96547
BS: Kramer's Racist Rant

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=93977
Black people at folk clubs

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=93902
BS: Arguments against racial profiling

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=92446
BS: Apologies over slave trade?

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=91580
BS: Using the N-word.

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=91497
Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=88950
BS: Responses To Racism

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=88402
BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=86490&messages=258&page=1
BS: Racial No-nos

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=84217
BS: Black looters, white finders [this is a Hurricane Katrina/Hurricane Rita thread; there is a related thread listing of threads about hurricanes/relief work during hurricanes]

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=84239
Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=83573
BS: Multiculturalism

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=56348
How to End Racism

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=81834
BS: Tolerance and the Intolerant

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=81583
BS: From Britain With Bigotry

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=80223
Subject: BS: Bobert's Race Thread

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=80063
RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=79324
BS: A discussion - What is antisemitism? .

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=79107
BS: What means bigot?

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=79055
BS: our increasing racist government

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=78495
RE: BS: What Makes Condi Lie???...

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=78863
BS: Affirmative Action?

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=77817
BS: What did Jesus look like?

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=77610
BS: Cross cultural marriages

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=76375
BS: Mummers and Racism

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Megan L
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 02:12 PM

Weel hen if ye wanted fowk tae plough through thon rants ye might at least hae taken the bother tae mak them intae clickies.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 02:15 PM

Megan L, I'm sorry, but I don't understand some of the words that you used in your 09 Mar 08 - 02:05 PM post. Would you rewrite it or provide the meanings for the words/phrases "coos sharn" and "hiv tae pit up wie sic ravlins" Does this mean "have to put up with such rambling?".

**

In light of what I think Megan's comment means, let me repost to comments that I wrote to two of the threads that I included in those list:

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 04:30 AM

The subject of racism HAS come up a lot lately month here at Mudcat...Why???

Who knows..Maybe it's some cluster effect that has happened before with other subjects. Anyway, I suppose a cluster of subjects has probably happened here before. This is my 7th month on Mudcat so I can't point to any examples, but I would imagine some long time members could.

And I'm not even going to mention the names of those thread on race and racism that have happened so close together within actually what seems like the last two weeks..One of which is still going strong..

Not to mention that in the last month or so there has also been politics, Blues, and Bob Marley threads that refer {referred} to race if not racism. [There was a vicious troll on a Bob Marley on the radio thread that Brucie conquered so admirably-Thanks again, Brucie!]

And Dianavan, I so very much appeciated your posts on that infamous thread about that woman whose name I will not even mention. I thank you!

Of course, just because those threads are there doesn't mean that I have to participate in the discussions-except for threads like
"What books should I read next?' & and 'Feelin the Blues' threads which I started..Both of which mention African Americans..

But I could have 'played pass' those other threads- Free will and all that...I chose to comment.

And you're right, Dianavan-I AM interested in other topics. It was actually children's rhymes that brought me to this folk community, but my special area of interest is African American rhymes..Hmmn-that subject deals with race...

I'd prefer to discuss that or other things such as secular slave songs and culture -OOPS! You have to talk about race with that subject, too..

Well, I'd readily post on a thread that discussed astrology, or reincarnation, or psychic phenomenon, or dream interpretation, or science fiction books, or the history and cultural meanings of social dances in North America, South America, and the Caribbean- OOPS! that last subject would involve race and probably racism too...

I'm also interested in the subject of adoption. At one time I worked in that field and, among other things, I facilitated workshops that provided opportunities for transracial adoptive parents to discuss the impact of race & racism on parenting non-White children.. OOPS! there's those two 'R' words again...

Okay-I'd love it if there was a Mudcat thread on the subject of etymology, particularly slang, or the origins & meanings of names, or sound preferences among African Americans -OOPS! I'm back to issues of race..

Well I did post to the spatula thread..there was no mention of race there..

Did I mention spatulas? Is that craze still going on??!

Inquiring minds want to know..

Even if I don't post to BS threads like that they provide a break from serious heavy duty matters..the pause that refreshes so energy is renewed to do what ya gotta do or want to do on a more serious tip...

So thanks to all those witty, creative, [wacked out??!] 'Catters who keep making up those type of BS threads!

You create them-I'll at least lurk.

Peace!

**

Subject: RE: BS: What means bigot?
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 11:29 AM

Even arm chair travel like we are doing at Mudcat-meeting new people and exchanging cultural information and opinions-helps to counteract the "prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness" that is so pervasive in our societies.

Another good reason to continuing visiting Mudcat!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 02:19 PM

Azizi I'm sorry, but this is beginning to look more like a crusade than anything else. I REALLY can't see what good it will do rehashing old threads.

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 02:37 PM

Giok,

Threads on other topics have a "related thread" list. I believe that it would be helpful for those persons who want to read {or post to} archived threads on the subject of race, racism, anti-semitism and related topics to have a hyperlinked listing-or at least a listing such as the one that I provided sans hyperlinks. It's an individual choice if a person wants to visit or "rehase" one or more of these old threads.

I'm certainly not interesting in "rehasing". But I am interested in making those threads more accessible, and in reading those threads, and in learning from those threads.

Throughout this thread, and by way of those 2005 reposted comments of mine I've indicated why I think it's important to read and learn from these types of threads. Of course, I don't expect everyone to agree with me about this or about anything.

Different strokes for different folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: meself
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 03:07 PM

Yes. There's no reason for those who are not interested to take an interest ... If you think this or any other thread is a waste of time, then don't waste your time on it ...

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 03:11 PM

Giok, that is outrageous. Have you no idea of the overtones of the word "crusade"?

Megan may be making a point in a subtle way that we see little posting specifically on or in Scottish dialects.   Or she may not.

And Azizi answers (I wonder why no-one else did) my question about the difference between above the line and BS. Although the above the line may be focussed specifically on unappetizing topics for African-Americans (anglocentric music being irrelevant to them and blues being an unpleasant reminder), they might post below the line but find constantly being challenged, sometimes in unpleasant or at least thoughtless terms. Hence the Mudcat is indeed difficult for people of colour. Why do so few of the white posters here acknowledge botht hat and the logic of that?

I wonder, however, if I may suggest that there is a distinction between colour prejudice and antisemitism. It is this. Today we can see that African-Americans and the black communities in England both suffer from relatively low achievement, as contemporary defnitions of "success" go. I don't know if there are figures showing the position for the relative success of Jews in the USA or England, but my guess would be that the figures will not be the same.   Hence we see I think no shortage of both observant and non-observant Jews ready to identify themselves as such - although we see few discussions of specifically Jewish music forms (some on Klezmer, but not all that many).   So for this purpose semitic people will not feel the same reaction as "people of colour". Also, before some smartass with a spectrometer says it, it's not about colour as such for semitic people.

It will take more than a few courageous souls like Azizi before we have a forum that treats the African-Americans here and/or the black communities from Englad in the same way as the "Anglos" (which includes "Euros" for this purpose). We owe you Azizi a vote of thanks, not the carping you get. There will be time to develop a lightness of touch when the wall has fallen. More power to your elbow.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 04:18 PM

Richard you can take it to mean whatever you want to, I know what I meant, and I will not have my words twisted to suit a different agenda.
Perhaps you might like to argue your semantic point with Billy Graham !

G

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: meself
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 04:29 PM

I suspect that the reason that we do not apparently have many people of colour on this forum, either above or below the line, is because not very many people of colour are interested in 'folk music', at least in the Anglo- and African-American-based 'folk music' the discussion of which dominates the musical part of the forum. A person who is interested in some form of African folk music, as an example, may well stumble onto this forum, take a quick glance through the thread titles, and then move on to another forum in which there may be more people who share that interest.

Bear in mind that it is a minority of white people who have any real interest in 'folk music', and of them, a tiny minority who hang around here ...

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Megan L
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 04:34 PM

Mesel :) I hiv never bin tiny in onything except hieght.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 04:42 PM

The absence of threads here about most forms of folk music is a consequence of the fact that people with particular interest or expertise in them don't post here, because there aren't threads about the types of folk music which interest them and in which they have some expertise. And if someone starts a thread trying to find out about one of these multifarious varieties of folk music, there won't be anyone to respond with useful information.

That is a tricky vicious circle to break out of. A pity. Myself, I'm interested in folk music right across the board, not just the kinds we tend to concentrate on here.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 04:47 PM

Thanks for the links earlier Kevin, I adore Mariza, and have lots of her stuff on CD.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 04:47 PM

I suspect that Mesel is correct in thinking that few people of colour are interested in (white) folk music.

But that doesn't address Azizi's original point, which is (if I'm re-stating it correctly - if not, please correct me) that it's uncomfortable at times to read Mudcat's forums, because there are times when you slam face-first into a totally unexpected racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 06:21 PM

Thompson, I agree with what you wrote that "there are times when you slam face-first into a totally unexpected racism", though the word "racism" is probably too strong in most instances. Maybe it's an insider/outsider thing with the person who is different being on the outside and trying to explain herself or himself or her or his culture to those who think they understand, or don't understand, but who are interested in understanding, and/or people who don't understand and couldn't care less about understanding...It's all of that and more. What is most difficult for me is when I'm reading a thread that isn't about race and these [what I consider to be]misunderstandings occur. At least on "race/racism" threads you know that you are going to have to try to explain yourself. But it's sometimes like trying to explain things in one language to people who don't speak your language...

And the other point I was trying to make is that if there were other Black people or other people of color who participated in these threads I wouldn't have to do all the talking and explaining...

But I chose to start this thread and I chose to post on other threads about race and racism and I chosen to post on most other Mudcat threads when the topic of race came up. No one forced me to do so. I did so because I wanted to and because I needed to address the issue/s. And I must say that it has been a relief for me to know that there are Mudcat members and guests who do understand and there are Mudcat members and guests who do who want to understand more, just as I do want to understand more about myself, my culture, and other people's cultures.

When I started this thread, I wasn't sure if anyone else would post to it. I thought that it might be me venting and others would think, okay there she goes again. Glad she got that out of her system {again}. But instead, other people did post and here we are...I'm not interested in repeating myself on this thread. I've said what I wanted to say and I've read what others have said and I've listed some archived threads on this subject. And as far as I'm concerned, at this point in time, my time on Mudcat and off of Mudcat can be better spent on other threads-or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 08:04 PM

"And the other point I was trying to make is that if there were other Black people or other people of color who participated in these threads I wouldn't have to do all the talking and explaining..."

Not sure about this.

I think you'd end up talking and explaining your perspective to them as much as to the rest of us because that's the way you are. You like sharing ideas and engaging in intelligent honest discourse.

And it's a good thing.

You'll take every idea in this thread and you'll think about it and give it respectful consideration and test your own perspective and see whether there is something to be learned and you'll develop and continue looking for a better understanding and for a better more concise and comprehensive way of expressing the fundamental tenets of how you feel and what you understand.

And I honestly think that the reason why isn't because you are in a significant minority racially, but because you like to take responsibility for these issues - in turn, because you, on the one hand feel strongly about them and on the other because you have spent many years developing your understanding of them.

I reckon if you were on a mainly black forum you would feel the urge to represent "white interests" (for want of a better term) as you would feel, having shared so much here, that you had a pretty good understandng of the variety of white viewpoints and because you're a pretty fair person.

I think this thread for you is about a personal odessey. For the rest of us it is just a bit more mudcat gold.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Rowan
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 09:20 PM

Well, I had a bit of time off so, taking responsibility for whether they do or don't work, here are the links to
Mudcat threads referencing race/racism/ethnicity and/or anti-semitism Sept 2004-March 9, 2008; from Azizi, with additions.

Yellow Gal
BS: In Memory: Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
BS: Lewis Hamilton - black?
BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
BS: Racism of top scientist?
BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
RE: Strange Fruit
BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
Tintin In The Congo
BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity
BS: Great White Father knows best...? (Australia)
BS: Australian Aborgines=Special Day
Folklore: 1967 Aboriginal Referendum (Aus)
BS: At last! 'Sorry!'
BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
BS: 'nappy headed hos' what does it mean?
BS: The term Afro American?
BS: Where has all the hostility gone ?
BS: Poverty in the USA
BS: Cherokee Vote on Freedmen
BS: Is this Racism?
Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
Advice Please? - use of offensive words in songs [has a listing of related threads]
BS: Growing up in post-holocaust Germany
Looking for songs against racism
BS: Kramer's Racist Rant
Black people at folk clubs
BS: Arguments against racial profiling
BS: Apologies over slave trade?
BS: Using the N-word.
Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
BS: Responses To Racism
BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
BS: Racial No-nos
BS: Black looters, white finders [this is a Hurricane Katrina/Hurricane Rita thread; there is a related thread listing of threads about hurricanes/relief work during hurricanes]
Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
BS: Multiculturalism
How to End Racism
BS: Tolerance and the Intolerant
BS: From Britain With Bigotry
BS: Bobert's Race Thread
BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
BS: A discussion - What is antisemitism?
BS: What means bigot?
BS: our increasing racist government
BS: What Makes Condi Lie???...
BS: Affirmative Action?
BS: What did Jesus look like?
BS: Cross cultural marriages
BS: Mummers and Racism

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 09:47 AM

Rowan, thanks for those links and those additions.

**

I believe there will come a time when a person's race and ethnicity are considered to be nothing but valueless descriptors. When that time comes, people will look back on these centuries and wonder why their ancestors were so misguided.

Keep on keepin on!

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Peace
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 11:09 AM

One of the things I love about Mudcat is that it IS a site that can examine itself and reach conclusions, not all of which are comfortable.

Great thread, Azizi.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 01:59 PM

I'd distinguish between "race" and ethnicity" - "race" is a pseudo-scientific nonsense, and the sooner it gets dumped the better.

"Ethnicity" is much more interesting, and does relate to genuine variants in the way people choose to live, and in principle it has nothing to do with "race", except where a culture that is obsessed with "race" as a way of categorising people forcibly confuses the two.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Rowan
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 05:51 PM

"race" is a pseudo-scientific nonsense

"Race" as a biological concept applied to variants of plant species may once have had some value but, applied to humans, is nonsensical except as an indicator of paranoia and intention to apply power; the cross-fertilisation between these two applications has diminished what little value it may have had for biologists.

"Ethnicity" is much more interesting, and does relate to genuine variants in the way people choose to live

The crux of this statement is the use of "choose".

Anthropologists going (usually from urban societies dominated by "whites") to study the inhabitants (mostly not "whites") of societies (mostly nonurban) may have justifiably applied the phrase "genuine variants in the way people choose to live" in an historic sense and there has been considerable scholarly discourse on the very topic, usually contrasted with aspects of "determinism".

But, in our western, Anglo- or Euro-centred societies, constructs of ethnicity are often applied to individuals from outside their groups rather than actively chosen by them. The outwash of the Cronulla riots in Oz include the notion that a "real Australian" (one who mindlessly chants "Ozzie!" thrice followed by "Oy!", also thrice) has no visual attributes that would betray any ancestry from outside a territory bounded by the Atlantic on the west, the Urals on the east (although some of those Georgians are a bit suss), the bits of Scandinavia (without the Lapps) in the North and the Alps and Pyrenees in the south and even the Catalans are a bit dodgy. The "real Australians" attibute foreign ethnicity to anyone else (Indigenous peoples confuse their tiny minds) and tell them to "Go home!" when their targets may have mnore generations of ancestry in Australia than the shouters.

When the targets "choose" a particular ethnicity as a result of such treatment it's usually as a form of negative reaction for protective purposes rather than a positive acclamation of multiculturalism.

Not long ago I listened to a radio interview of a Birmingham (UK) lawyer; the context was the effect of slavery in her ancestry on her ability to identify with any particular culture or ethnicity. Her parents had come from one of the British Caribbean colonies/dependencies but she herself was born in the UK; her public identity was one foisted on her by those around her in the UK. When she went to the particular Caribbean locality where her parents had come from, the locals regarded her as a foreigner on the basis of her accent and assigned her an identity and ethnicity that had very little to do with them. When she visited the part of Africa from which her ancestors had been enslaved, originally,, the locals there also regarded her as a foreigner on the basis of both her coloour and her accent and assigned her an identity and ethnicity that had absolutely nothing to do with them; moreover, she was identified with 'western oppressors'.

So, while I think McGrath's got the right idea, there are "fish hooks" all through almost every line of exploration of the discussion. Which is not an argument for cessation, just one for care. And I know there are 'catters who could have said it much more succinctly.

End of rave!

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 06:21 PM

That was why I concluded that sentence by writing "except where a culture that is obsessed with "race" as a way of categorising people forcibly confuses the two."

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 06:30 PM

"Fish hooks" as Rowan calls them, is why I have decided I will post no more in this thread.

G