Songs learned 'from the singing of...'

Subject: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: GUEST,redmax
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:11 AM

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before, but I've tried searching for the thread and keep getting timed out.

Can I just check if there's a consensus on the "learned from the singing of" phrase? I've always assumed it meant that you'd heard a singer's version of a song, but from a recording rather than in person. And "learned from" I'd take to mean you'd actually heard it sung by the singer, perhaps getting their permission to sing it.

Do these definitions fit in with the general use of the terms?

thanks

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:32 AM

Just as long as you don't say, "I collected this from Martin Carthy, Nic Jones et.al."

You think I joke? I've heard people say this!

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 05:35 AM

well if that's where they collected it, I think that's fair enough. Its not like it was on Top of The Pops.

a harmless enough affectation....

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 07:12 AM

Why should this be regarded as an affectation? I've known songwriters get really upset if someone else sings one of their songs and doesn't credit it. Why shouldn't those who have done us the service of bearing part of the tradition (albeit most of them are now too dead to benefit from it directly) get a credit?

If I sing a song and say I got it "from the singing of Geoff Ling" I consider it implies a number of statements:
1) I did not personally collect it from him
2) a recording is available
3) I recommend the recording
4) it is a sufficiently different version from the one commonly sung to be worth commenting on
5) if you like it, you might want to consider listening to other recordings of him
6) if you have never heard of him, you might discretely want to catch me in the interval and ask who he was
7) I am at least going to make an attempt to sing it in the style of a member of a Suffolk traveller family rather than that of a country and western singer.

Quite an efficient use of 6 words, I would have thought.

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 07:22 AM

Why on earth should you make seven nonsequitur implications from an innocent phrase and expect to be understood? I've got several songs (which if you buy me enough beer I won't sing) from friends that you won't have heard of - Ed Harper, Rory Heap, Kevin Connell to name a few- and if anyone asked me where I got the song from, I'd say it was from their singing. No implications of recordings at all, though there is an implication that I thought their version was good enough to remember.

I'd expect "learend from" to imply at least a bit of physical contact, but there's no shame in saying "I got this from a Derek and Dorothy Elliot record", or "This was on an early Leon Rosselson EP".

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:04 AM

Sometimes it is worth indicating one's own source. I think that is mostly so if you have "non-standard" words or arrangement and you learned (and wish to attribute) those words or that arrangement rather than devising the non-standard variation.

The version I do of "Byker Hill" is from (a recording of) the singing of the Young Tradition and it is the common current version, with some harmonies when Royston Ford sings it with me that come from the YT version - and not the version (that I am told exists and is indeed the original) which I have not heard with a tune for "rant" stepping in 6/8.

The version I do of "Gentlemen of High Renown" is from (a recording of) the singing of the Young Tradition and the verses are not the same in all respects as the Coppers but the arrangement with guitar is mine.

The version I do of "Gentlemen of High Renown" is from (a recording of) the singing of the Young Tradition and the arrangement with guitar is mine.

The versions I do of "Hob-y-derry Dando" (North Wales version) and "Cupid's Garden" are all from the singing of the Elliots - and I heard them do them live before buying the vinyl, long before learning the songs.

"Blackleg Miner" (using the current usual tune which I think is a Victorian hymn tune isn't it?) I got from sort of general osmosis over the years and the arrangement is all mine.

Having thought about it I think I would only say "from the singing of" if I first heard it live. If not, I might say "from the recording of" if I perceived the recorded work as at least as much study as entertainment. Folk-rock bands I'd be more likely to say "ripped it off from an LP (or CD) of whoever"

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: GUEST,Phil at work
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:04 AM

I've introduced songs before now as "from the singing of Neil Young", or whoever. It raised a laugh.

Feeble jokes apart, I think there's more to this than meets the eye: different introductions convey different messages.

You can say
"I heard this one sung by Fred Mulch"
- if you like this song, look out for this person's performances

Or
"I got this song from Fred Mulch, it's on his second album _Much More Mulch_"
- if you like this song, look out for this person's recordings

Or the all-purpose
"I got this song from Fred Mulch"
- if you like this song, look out for this person's recordings *and* performances

Or you can say
"I learned this song from the singing of Fred Mulch"
- if you like this song you'll just have to come and see me again, as I collected it personally and am the only person you're ever likely to hear it from

I suggest that, for most of us, the last of these should be used very sparingly.

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:14 AM

Interesting..

You see I'd have transposed the last two.

'From the singing of' means -to me - I only ever hear them sing it (on record or in person).

'From' implies a personal contact.

No wonder I'm so often confused!

I don't bother to credit trad songs that everyone knows ( but always credit covers though, on principle), but if I think it may be less well known I cite the recording if it came from one, or just the name if we'd a conversation about it.

I'm not clever enough to pick up a whole song from one performance, so I never use 'from the singing of.'

When someone says that I assume they either heard it many times (as members of same club or family perhaps) or got it from a record - in which case I wish they say so.

Tom

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:21 AM

"X gave me this song" - implies personal approval by the author of teh performer's version.

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:02 AM

IMNSO (In my not so humble opinion) it is a good idea to ALWAYS indicate the source of your material , if Composed , credit the writer , if traditional , credit where you got it from , wether from Album or Book / Library .

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:13 AM

100% with that Lead! T

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: GUEST,redmax
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:33 AM

I've often wondered if learning songs from LPs and CDs was deemed to be a bit naff in folk circles, and "from the singing of" is a way of acknowledging you didn't get something directly from a singer but not admitting you just learned it from an album. Nothing to be ashamed of, I'd say.

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:49 AM

Interesting - as I said (using my other handle) to me "from the singing of" implies not getting the song from anything as mundane as a record or a gig.

I don't think there's any shame in getting stuff off records (although I used to feel a lot more inhibited about admitting it). The test is whether you can make the song your own.

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:51 AM

After you've sung a sung if (and only if) someone asks you tell them that stuff. The exception being where you are singing a song written by someone who gave you the words with a request to credit them when you sing it, in which case it's probably better to do that before singing it.

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: DebC
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:07 AM

I always give the writer of the song or if it's a trad song, I try to give the source or where *I* first heard the song. For instance, I sing "Yon Green Valley". Since I first heard that song from Chris Coe, I give her credit and mention the record's name ("A Wiser Fool") where I heard the song.

I really believe in credit where credit is due, especially when I find gems like the example above.

Deb

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 01:25 PM

Ok. Not enough people hate me yet, so let me have another go. My previous contribution was made on the assumption that 'from the singing of' was confined to acknowledgments of traditional source singers. Clearly some people do not regard this as taken as read.

I do not generally acknowledge material as being from revival singers on record unless:
1) they wrote it or substantially rewrote it
2) I think they worked inordinately hard to find it
3) there is a particular reason for such an acknowledgment to be relevant to the performance (e.g. the singer has just died, or five other people have just done songs recorded by the same person).

My reasons for for this are:
1) I do not ever acknowledge that I have made a deliberate attempt to sing any song in the style of a particular revival singer (though others are entitled to think that I do). I do make this acknowledgment in the case of source singers (though others are entitled to think that I fail lamentably).
2) As a general rule (and there may be a few exceptions to both ends of this statement) revivalist singers record songs to make money and source singers didn't. I reiterate what I said in my first posting - I regard 'from the singing of' as being a thank you and a tiny medal for the people who for no gain to themselves gave me a piece of tradition that would otherwise have been lost.

I now sit back to be attacked for my disrespect, if not my hatred, for revivalist singers. That is not my attitude. I am after all one myself. I merely state why I think the conditions for saying 'I got this from the singing of' are different in the two cases. And why I am sufficiently 'affected' to want to say it at all.

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 01:33 PM

I regard 'from the singing of' as being a thank you and a tiny medal for the people who for no gain to themselves gave me a piece of tradition that would otherwise have been lost.

I agree completely - which is why I suggested that for most mudcatters the phrase should probably be used sparingly. ('Most' doesn't equal 'all'!)

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 01:40 PM

I think you're probably in the wrong place for hatred.

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: PoppaGator
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 02:36 PM

"So-and-so taught me this song of his/hers" would clearly express a claim that you met the artist in person. The other phrases under discussion here are more ambiguous; in fact, we've seen that some folks have had exact opposite interpretations of "from the singing of" vs "learned from."

As far as I'm concerned, that ambiguity is completely OK. If anyone is truly concerned about whether you actually met so-and-so in person, let them approach you off stage and ask.

I have had a (very) few encounters with noteworthy artists, and indeed even been greatly encouraged by their reactions to my own efforts, but I generally try very hard NOT to drop their names or otherwise claim their reputations as somehow enhancing how I might be regarded. I save my stories of these "brushes with greatness" for close friends, only after I've gotten to know them quite well.

Well, with the exception of a few indiscreet postings on Mudcat. But not this time!

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 02:47 PM

I believe I said this on the Black Leg Miner thread. If I choose to perform the song (regardless of its actual origins) I'll say I learned from the Steeleye Span record, Hark! The Village Wait, which I did. I've learned other songs from records, and I state my sources when I perform a particular song.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:54 PM

I think you're probably in the wrong place for hatred.

I wish that was so! (I mean in general.)

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 06:13 PM

I always assumed that "from the singing of..." meant you actually heard the person singing it, rather than you learned it off their record. At least, if I learned a song off a record I'd always say if was off such and such record. Unless I was having a laugh eg "this is from the singing of the Manchester singer Stephen Patrick Morrissey" ;-)

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: Betsy
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 07:24 PM

I'm with lead fingers

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:32 PM

I remember Dave Van Ronk introducing a song with, "I learned this off an old album of mine."

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:24 PM

Gerry, Indeed, I often went back to my old records to reacquaint myself with a set of words I'd not sung in a while.

Also, folks, in my experience it was a general ethic of the times (1960s through the 1980s) to, almost always, give our sources for any traditional songs we would sing. It was second nature for me to do that. It was documenting the historical lineage and I wanted to be accurate about it. It was an act of heartfelt respect for the source singers AND the collectors that built the large archives like the Library Of Congress ARCHIVE OF FOLK SONG here in the USA. That place was as close to a holy spot as I have ever come across. Saying where from, and who from, and how I found a given song is still important to me. It was a good portion of the big treasure hunt for me. As Utah Phillips once told me:

"That's folklore; if you don't know it, make it up!"

And possibly that's how tall tales were born.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:45 PM

To me, it means I learned the song by ear, not from notes... either by hearing on a recording or from a memorable performance. Since most of the material I learn is from generations ago, I think people generally assume it was via recording.

~S~

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: GUEST,redmax
Date: 01 May 08 - 03:20 AM

Thank you for all the comments. Clearly the phrase is used differently by different people.

The reason I ask is that I'm embarking on a dissertation based on information acquisition and adaptation, with folk song as my topic. I think it's admirable that singers of folk songs are often so diligent about crediting their sources, and generally seem interested in a song's provenance. I've been studying the liner notes from a lot of LPs and CDs and the phrase 'from the singing of...' crops up a lot. I was hoping there was some consensus about its application, but obviously there isn't. I needed to clarify that, so thanks again.

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 May 08 - 03:26 AM

Collected = I borrowed the album
Researched = I bought the album

:D

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: CupOfTea
Date: 01 May 08 - 10:54 AM

As someone who came to singing of traditional songs by a roundabout route, aI figured any way to learn the song was fair game. Most of what I sing comes from several sources, and darnfew of those from 'source singers.' When I state that something I do is 'from the singing of...' it means that's whose version of the song inspired me to learn the song, and whose phrasing and dynamics are what I strive for. Most of the time, something comes into my repertiore with several ancestors. I'm firstly a visual artist, and find that while I sing along very well by aural tradition, I usually need to write the lyrics down if I intend to specificly learn a song. A week in a singing class Frank Harte convinced me that 'twas no shame to have a lyric book.

I come from an area that doesn't have a strong traditional singing aesthetic, and the idea of someone 'owning a song' or giving it to you is something I understand from traditional singers elsewhere. It just does not exist here.

When I sing "House Carpenter" the chords and most of the words come from (I think) the Joan Baez songbook. The sound in my head comes from Pentangle, as do some variations on the lyrics. The autoharp technique got inserted after listening to David Rice do an entirely different tune. After hearing Dan Kedding re-insert the demonic emphasis to the story I absorbed his bit 'she looked down, saw his cloven hooves and wept most bitterly'

Much of what I've swotted down comes from listening to the singing of Phil Cooper & Margaret Nelson frequently. I've heard them perform songs repeatedly, own all their recordings, and find them an endless source of songs I come to love, but I'll always go to written sources when I set out to learn it myself, modifying it to their version. Where it's a song Margaret has written, I am going to the source, eh?

Some of my earlierst exposure to the Brit trad that I love so dearly came at third or fourth hand. In particular I think of "Adieu Sweet Lovely Nancy" which *I* learned from the singing of Dick Swain, who was always expansive about what his sources were, and so I heard of Peter Bellamy, who I got to hear do it eventualy. And Peter got it from the Copper Family, who I also got to hear and hoist a beer with. In my heart, though i know it's a Copper Family song, (got the albums, got the songbook...) to me it's a Dick Swain-with-a-concertina song.

With all the performances, recordings, online archieves, songbooks and library sources, we've such a wealth of ways to get to having a song in our personal repertoire. Instead of splitting hairs over 'from the singing of' and another designation, freely stating where songs come from helps give them a place to go to.

Joanne in Cleveland

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 May 08 - 12:28 PM

I think if truth be known, we all come to where we are, by a roundabout route. If we went a more direct way - we'd get there too early.

I don't see much hatred going on, on mudcat. A bit of silliness from people who feel they have some bailliwick to defend, but it all makes for hours of brainless fun, in the end.

The songs that really drew me into folk music where the songs of contemporary writers. I grew up in Lincolnshire in the 1950's and there were rocket sites pointing at Moscow all over there. The thought that someone across the other side of the world had written What did you learn in school today? and Where have all the Flowers gone etc. made me want to be part of the resistance to what was going on.

I thought folksingers were really cool, because every one I knew - their grandads had fought in the first world war, their dad's in the second, and we grew up thinking that world war 3 was inevitable.   Eveyone in my village and at my grammar school, was accepting it, everyone except these guys on the radio singing what (in my ignorance) thought were folksongs.

personally I'm really sorry it all turned into songs about stuff long ago and dance tunes no one much dances. I thought it was better before.

I'm not sure what I would say - from the singing of Malvina Reynolds. from the singing of Pete Seeger, from the singing of Tom Paxton. It was mainly Seeger, but also the Kingston Trio - in fact everyone sang those songs. That's how they became folksongs, better known than what they tell me are real folksongs.

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 May 08 - 01:11 PM

Amen, WLD. As always, you prove to be more a man after my own heart than most.

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 01 May 08 - 03:23 PM

What really bugs me is when people say this is "a song from so and so", when they just mean they nicked it off a recording by so and so, and haven't bothered to check who so and so got the song from!


Kitty

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: GUEST,The Mole catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 01 May 08 - 03:30 PM

Well in the case of Black Leg Miner, the origins of the song are in some dispute, see the eponymous thread. To save any grief I've stated quite clearly, when performing the song, where I've learned the said song from.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 May 08 - 04:49 PM

I suppose Kitty some people simply haven't got the resources or know how to look for the origins - particularly those starting out.

when I was at Fylde last year I heard a young singer confidently tell the crowd that Dirty Old Town was an Irish song.

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 01 May 08 - 04:53 PM

Learning music from records is now one of the many sources of songs, and will, in all likelyhood, continue to grow as a source of song. Checking sources, where possible, is very important and should not be overlooked.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 01 May 08 - 04:55 PM

wld - I guess it depends whether they learnt it from a recording they'd bought, which would have had notes about the tracks, or just bootlegged it!

All songs are Irish if they're popular in Ireland, aren't they?

Kitty

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 01 May 08 - 05:15 PM

ummm...I found on more than one occasion that liner notes on some albums are somewhat sadly lacking in their detail, not all, but some.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 May 08 - 05:23 PM

Obviously, "Simple Gifts" was "nicked" from "Lord Of De Dance." And De Danon took their name from that one. (The yogurt did too. ;-) If you search long and hard enough you will find a source for every song ever created. And Nic Jones is called that because of all the songs he "nic(k)ed" and put his own moniker on---whatever that word means to Brits. What say you, Kitty?! The word was never "collected" here in the USA!

And then Aaron Copeland stole L.O.T.D. and put it in his Apple Chain Springs Eternal thing. What tangled webs we weave!   He took it for a Simple Gift from God, I guess...

Art

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 May 08 - 05:28 PM

I heard a young singer confidently tell the crowd that Dirty Old Town was an Irish song

Are you sure he wasn't singing "Durty Ould Town"? Entirely different number.

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 01 May 08 - 06:55 PM

Maybe "songs learned from" means not just reading the words while you sing?
Kitty

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: the button
Date: 01 May 08 - 07:42 PM

That's just "songs learned," isn't it? ;-)

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: Joybell
Date: 01 May 08 - 07:45 PM

I never sing a song without finding out all I can about it -- back to the oldest written source if possible. I feel strongly about giving credit where it's due as well. I don't copy other singers intentionally.
Having said that I try to keep my introductions about a song brief -- so that people don't go home before they get what they came for. I credit the author if possible. If it's a traditional song I say where it comes from. Sometimes I add comments about where I first heard it and from whom -- but I consider this less important.

Sorry -- I realise that I don't actually say, "I got this from the singing of..." so maybe I'm raving again.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 02 May 08 - 12:46 PM

Rabbiting on about the source and origins of songs, which some singers do, incessantly, tends to bore alot of audiences, once you've lost the audience there doesn't seem much point in proceeeding further. As person of my acquaintance once remarked, if I wanted a lecture, I'd be in university.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: GUEST,redmax
Date: 03 May 08 - 11:22 AM

I have a very high boredom threshold for this sort of detail. That's why I'm a librarian, I suppose!

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: Tootler
Date: 03 May 08 - 12:59 PM

Rabbiting on about the source and origins of songs, which some singers do, incessantly, tends to bore alot of audiences

I like singers to tell me something about the song they are going to sing, where it came from, its origins, or they have written it the circumstances of its composition etc. I find such information interesting.

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 03 May 08 - 01:09 PM

It's all down to how it's done. It can indeed be deadly - but also fascinating. Make it a detective story and you can't go wrong.

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: Joybell
Date: 03 May 08 - 08:59 PM

I'm glad I've got company.
I did say -- in the second line of my post -- before I did any rabbiting that:

"Having said that I try to keep my introductions about a song brief -- so that people don't go home before they get what they came for..."
Everybody do the Rabbity Rag. La La La......
Joy

Subject: RE: Songs learned 'from the singing of...'
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 04 May 08 - 07:45 AM

All our songs come from someone else (except the very few we've written ourselves) so it becomes boring to introduce each one with 'from the singing of', even though we think it's important to credit writers (in particular) and anyone else who have given us songs (we were given this song by...) or whose source works we've researched. So you have to invent a range of introductions - just don't tell lies. And we're with the other TomB - make it a detective story - just don't tell lies, unless, of course...!

Tom