Chords in Folk?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 06 May 08 - 04:08 PM

"Ted the tenor, and George the baritone singing from the same hymn sheet...and you're looking at the SAME! top-line melody (in A! given key) and listening to the same organ as you do so - you are NOT, thus, singing in different keys/you are singing the same top-line with naturally different (sop., tenor, baritone) God-given voices, yes?"

If I wasn't aware already (which I was), this finally settles it, WAV doesn't know what he's talking about. I'm printing this out and will show it to my voice teacher in the morning.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 May 08 - 03:49 PM

Sorry - P & C, or rather C & P!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 May 08 - 03:48 PM

Seldayne--More specifically, I wondered if you were using the harp in a Harry Partch way--

Whilst Partch is a crucial influence on my approach to both singing & storytelling, I'm not intoning in microtones, rather canting with an awareness of what Partch called corporeality relative to a diatonic modal accompaniment built up of 4th, 5ths, 3rds and 8ve unisons. I'm also big on improvisation, which doesn't feature
in Partch's music at all.

There's some choice Partch on YouTube right now - not least The Delusion of the Fury in its entirety (!) and a wonderful clip of HP free-styling in the kitchen (!!).

WAV - before you cause actual nervous breakdowns, I suggest you seek some off-line advice for some much-needed clarification regarding musical harmony. Try your local music teacher, or perhaps have a word with P & K as to how harmony works in shape-note singing.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 May 08 - 02:13 PM

I'm starting a rival thread:-

Old Rope in Folk

Can I count on your support?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 May 08 - 02:10 PM

Certainly didn't mean to imply that Marje wasn't making sense.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 May 08 - 02:09 PM

John (I nearly called you Ted), I mentioned your good name just after saying a chorus/harmony? in a folk club can sound great (whatever it is), in my opinion, as you suggested I'm a tad anti-harmony - "You seem to be worryingly entrenched in your anti-harmony views"; Now, I did admit way back that I know little of harmonies and chords (I could recognise some if I could see a guitarist's or pianist's left hand) but (minus a degree in mathematics) I have tried, Marje, and shall do so once more...there's you a soprano, Ted the tenor, and George the baritone singing from the same hymn sheet...and you're looking at the SAME! top-line melody (in A! given key) and listening to the same organ as you do so - you are NOT, thus, singing in different keys/you are singing the same top-line with naturally different (sop., tenor, baritone) God-given voices, yes?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Melissa
Date: 06 May 08 - 02:02 PM

Marje,
Yes, you are making sense.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 May 08 - 01:38 PM

Sedayne--I am very sorry to admit that I have misconstructed your name, perhaps as an unconscious reference to the allergy medicine. No offense intended.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 May 08 - 01:29 PM

Seldayne--More specifically, I wondered if you were using the harp in a Harry Partch way--

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 08 - 01:10 PM

no.wav, appears to be on a different planet.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 06 May 08 - 01:06 PM

Snail just got in while I was logging in to say no, WAV's last post didn't make sense, and he mentioned my name, but I couldn't see how he was commenting on what I had said. Perhaps this is all getting too much for him.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 May 08 - 01:01 PM

Marje

Is any of this making sense?

No.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Marje
Date: 06 May 08 - 12:42 PM

WAV, one of us (at least) is getting confused by this discussion.
If two people sing in the same key, either in the same octave or an octave apart, it'll sound fine. If they sing in different keys that are not an octave apart, and both go do-re-mi, they're not both singing in C. Doh is just a name for the first note of the scale, in any key. One would be singing in C and one in G (or one in D and one in F, or whatever) and it would sound awful. That's neither unison nor conventional harmony.

I really don't know what you mean about introducing a chorus on recorder and then changing the key. It sounds a disconcerting thing to do, and why would you do it?

Help me, someone out there! Is any of this making sense?

Marje

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 May 08 - 11:49 AM

...and if that didn't make any sense, it was because I thought I was posting to the "Making music on a Mac" thread.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 May 08 - 11:44 AM

It's at

http://www.campin.me.uk/Music/Modes.abc

Only single-line melodies, and mostly within ABC 1.6, but about as heterogeneous a collection as you can get within those constraints.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 06 May 08 - 07:02 AM

I play a lot of music on fiddle with a Bozouki player, and find that he adds a lot of depth to the music I play. A simple tune, played however well can get pretty boring, but with decent backing can sound incredible.

At a session once a woman fairly new to the melodeon started playing the Bear Dance. Slowly the musicians around her joined in, with chords, runs, counter melodies and all ... which developed into one of the most incredible tunes I have ever heard.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 May 08 - 06:17 AM

I know nothing about classical music but I'd have thought it easier having a skilled accompanist who could react if you went a touch wrong than playing to a recorded backup. I think it could provide a bit of a "safety net".

All I do know is that if on a very rare occasion I do find myself "stranded" as the only melody line in a tune in a session, I am very glad if there is for example a guitar player who knows what he's doing with the tune and will keep his accompaniment part going - I know someone like that can cover the odd blunder by me. I may still fail completely but I find something like that a confidence booster.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 May 08 - 06:15 AM

Do they still do those Music-Minus-One disks I wonder? A classical musician friend used to have them on vinyl for rehearsal purposes - the full orchestral backing without the solo instrument. Good music for getting absolutely hammered to on hot summer afternoons as I recall - Belorussian Vodka out the freezer and Vivaldi Oboe Concertos sans oboe!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 May 08 - 05:57 AM

But at a folk-club, Marje, when folks who know the tune and words all join in, they are (usually - I once got some sophisticated accompaniment to The Drunken Sailar, eg.) singing the tune/top-line-melody (if chords/base notes have been added to the score) in their natural voice, and it can, of course, sound great, John - but it wouldn't if they were singing in a different key, with it's different top-line notes..?..so if I intoduced a chorus on my recorder, then transposed it to another key, we would then ALL have sung it in two different keys..?..or if a natural-tenor and -base (which is not an octave apart) both go doe-ray-me...they are NOT singing in different keys..?!..they are both singing in C, yes?!!
I was thinking of fair-competition with these BBC Young Musician Awards (you accept that pianists, themselves, can be off-form) but, of course, classical music is very much about harmonies...perhaps they should all use a pre-recorded accompaniment, CR..?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Marje
Date: 06 May 08 - 04:47 AM

WAV, if a bass and tenor sang the same tune at different pitches, they'd have to be an octave apart to sound right. This may be classified as harmony of a very elementary type, but most people would regard this as unison. It's the same as when you get (say) men and women singing "Happy Birthday" together - they sing in different octaves but it hardly rates as harmony, sing they'll both be singing a G or whatever at the same time. To most people, harmony means a different interval from the octave.

Marje

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 May 08 - 08:36 PM

if you can't tell the difference between a Pythagorean major third and a just one, you can't tell the difference between just and equally tempered thirds either

Very probably, Jack - although I remember being very impressed by a demonstration of the pure 5/4s on Harry Partch's chromelodeon (a reconstructed harmonium - the only of HP's instruments to feature his full 43-note octave). However when I'm playing in thirds on the harp (the 13th century Nobilis Humilis for example) I'm not aware of any imperfections as such.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 May 08 - 07:27 PM

Sedayne's harp tuning is absolutely normal for mediaeval art music, since it gets pure fourths and fifths, and they're the only harmonies used as stable consonances in that idiom. But isn't remotely like what folk instruments like the nyckelharpa use to get built-in pure third sonorities (and what the split frets on Renaissance lutes achieve, and what barbershop singers do).

Let Us Calculate.

Pure major third = 5/4 ratio = 1.2000
Equally tempered major third = 4 ET semitones, 400 cents = 1.2599
Pythagorean major third = 81/64 ratio = 1.2656

That is, if you can't tell the difference between a Pythagorean major third and a just one, you can't tell the difference between just and equally tempered thirds either.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 May 08 - 06:53 PM

I am sure Jack will have some interesting things to say about the way you tune your harp, Seldayne, and I will defer the issues scale construction to him--I am curious to know why you decided to tune your harp in that manner--

I tune the harp this way because this is the way to tune a medieval harp! I've heard this described as the Cycle of Fifths, but this could be something different. Here's how it works in practice...

The Ionian tonic is tuned to pitch from a secondary source; for the sake of convenience let's call this note C. Once you've got all your Cs in tune, the next string you tune is the fifth above the tonic, which gives you G. Then you tune the fifth above the G, which gives you D. Next, you tune an 8ve below the D for your second note in lower sale, then you tune a fifth above which gives you A, and then a fifth above A which gives you E. Then you tune an 8ve below that E to give you your lower E. And so on and so forth until you've created an Ionian / Major scale from pure fifths.

My harp is one Tim Hobrough's small English Harps (circa 1982), 19 gut strings.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 05 May 08 - 06:37 PM

WAV: Re the use of Indian harmonium: I think it tends to be used more in popular and devotional music, and chords are used. In what is wrongly called Indian classical music, the melody/improvisation is, as you say, one note at a time; however, this is always accompanied by drones on the tanpura. A drone is a basic harmony, which has been used in European - including English - folk music for many centuries. It gives a fuller sound, and adds atmosphere, and, as has been suggested, can be easily rigged up on keyboards. It's not un-traditional - far from it. You seem to be worryingly entrenched in your anti-harmony views. Why not try a drone or two in the privacy of your own home, where nobody will know you're at it? You never know....
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 05 May 08 - 06:22 PM

100 Charlotte, Good on you.

Don

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 05 May 08 - 05:09 PM

Look the finished product had piano accompaniment, regardless of YOUR personal preferences, that's the way it was played, so get over it!

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 May 08 - 05:03 PM

...but we heard them practising their pieces unaccompanied, and it sounded great, CR.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 05 May 08 - 04:55 PM

"but why on earth must they have the accompaniment of a pianist who him- or her-self could be on or off form...why can't we hear just the flute, clarinet, obeo?

and...the answer to your question is...because that's the way the piece was played, with piano accompaniment.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 May 08 - 04:45 PM

If I may skip genres for a moment to the woodwind section of the BBC(4) Young Musician Awards, which I just really enjoyed - but why on earth must they have the accompaniment of a pianist who him- or her-self could be on or off form...why can't we hear just the flute, clarinet, obeo?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 May 08 - 04:06 PM

who put the bom in the bomba bomba bom?

who put the titty into the titty fa la, fa lay?

who put the C, F, G7, Am, Dm7, Em, G, D into Christy Moore?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 May 08 - 03:29 PM

I am sure Jack will have some interesting things to say about the way you tune your harp, Seldayne, and I will defer the issues scale construction to him--I am curious to know why you decided to tune your harp in that manner--

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 05 May 08 - 02:58 PM

I was joking...of course.....

as I stated earlier in the thread..."I see WAV has created YET another canvass for his seemingly never ending ego."


Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 May 08 - 02:49 PM

...we're seeing the light here in Newcastle, too - spring at last! :-)

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Sedayne (Astray)
Date: 05 May 08 - 02:48 PM

Jack - More importantly, I do like the idea of holding down stylophone drones with the feet. I did draw up plans for a mounting of switches until I figured the easiest thing to do would be to solder the stylus wire direct to the keyboard & use the tuner to change the pitch. For now, the mp3 drones do the job just nicely.

Times like this I pine for my old electro shruti box...

WAV - You come along to Joe's Come-All-Ye next month and I promise you some traditional stylophony!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 05 May 08 - 02:19 PM

I'm almost convinced that WAV knows what he's talking about, note I said almost *LOL*

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Sedayne (Astray)
Date: 05 May 08 - 01:55 PM

M.Ted - Slip of the finger; sorry - I meant Ionian, of course.

Jack - When I say Pythagorean scale, I mean a diatonic scale derived from the cycle of fifths. This is how I tune my medieval harp & the thirds sound just fine to my ears, much as they do on the citera. According to Panum (etc.) the European Board Zither (which she refers to as the Balk Monochord, including such instruments as the citera) derives from the Pythagorean monochord. I dare many will dispute this (even I find it a bit far fetched) but it seems at least apposite to a call a fretted non-tempered diatonic scale on a monochordal instrument with such a supposed provenance Pythagorean, though I dare the actual scale on this instrument derives more from the pragmatics of trial & error on the part of the maker than any familiarity with Ancient Greek mathematics as such.

This stuff always gave me a headache to be honest, but years of reading Harry Partch has left me with an enduring mistrust of the various givens of Western Classical Music and the theory and practise thereof.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 May 08 - 11:54 AM

I have a stylophone. It's not easy to tape the stylus in place, so when I've used it as a drone when playing a recorder I've simply held it between my toes.

"a curious solution to a particular problem which introduces different modal possibilities without compromising the essential purity of the diatonic / Phythagorean scale. In many of these diatonic board zithers, the Swedish Hummel in particular, the melodies are traditionally played by harmonising in thirds against the open drone strings"

Sedayne, you don't know what the Pythagorean scale is. It makes fourths and fifths pure - thirds and sixths sound worse than they do in the equally tempered scale. You are thinking of either just intonation or some version of meantone, which are entirely different.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 May 08 - 11:50 AM

Thanks, Marje - I was already clear on your second post, but not your first: I was thinking if, say, a natural-tenor and a natural-base sang the tune/top-/single-line melody together, it would be harmony singing.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Marje
Date: 05 May 08 - 11:33 AM

Oh, and a follow-up, WAV, in response to your observation about pub sessions: yes, many of the musicians are playing the tune most of the time, but some instruments include chords and drones that provide a harmony (guitar, mandolin, melodeon, accordion, some concertina playing, some pipes) so there will be quite a lot going on apart from the melody. If the melody is a simple one - say, a slowish waltz - you'll often hear improvised harmonies on recorder/whistle/fiddle or other melody instruments.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Marje
Date: 05 May 08 - 11:27 AM

About the "Voices in Harmony" album, WAV: there are a number of groups (mostly twos and threes) singing in harmony. I'm not sure what you mean when you ask whether they're "all singing just the tune in close harmony" - if they're all singing just the tune, that's not harmony, it's unison. If they're all singing the tune but in different keys (say a fourth apart) that's an old-style harmony called " organum" or "parallel fourths" (or fifths) - it sounds a bit spare and edgy, and it's not usual.

What they are normally singing are conventional harmonies based around the chord that related to each note or each bar. They're not "close" in the sense that barbershop harmonies are "close" - that's something different again. They are similar to the harmonies that would be used if the tune was arranged for, say, piano, or string quartet.

They are very far from being "art-songs", most having quite a rough, earthy sound, and some of the arrangements go back centuries.

What I find fascinating is how very different each duo or trio or quartet sounds, in contrast with classical singing, in which a given setting of a song sounds pretty similar even when sung by diffferent voices.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 May 08 - 10:17 AM

"Pure" intervals are overrated, you need a fair amount of dissonant tension to give color to a note(solo instrumentalists use a variety of techniques to alter pitch to provide interest,and listeners tend to perceive strict adherence to pitch as artificial and mechanical) and the whole idea of diatonic harmony revolves around resolving from a dominant seventh. One of the reasons that the "tempered" scales were developed was that, with the introduction of metal strings, more "pure" harmonic overtones were audible, and dissonances that had not been apparent became apparent.

As to the idea that modes somehow disappeared from Western music, it is not true--modal theory was incorporated into classical music theory, and, in fact, without using modes, you can't write harmony lines--

And, to set the record straight, "C to C" is an Ionian mode, not a Lydian mode.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 May 08 - 08:47 AM

I had a thought. In the medieval court of Yaroslav the Wise there was a semi-legendary bard by the name of Boyan. He is mentioned in the lay of Prince Igor (I can't remember if he features in the opera or not) and became a very popular folk figure. He would accompany himself on the gusli, a form of psaltery. A hundred years or go a form of button accordeon was invented in Russia and named the Bayan, in honour of Boyan. It became immensley popular for both dance tunes and for ACCOMPANIYING FOLK SONGS!!!!
Why? It could play not only the top line, but chords, bass and pretty much whatever your fingers wanted to do. Forget balalaikas, the bayan is seen by most people as the national instrument.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 05 May 08 - 08:17 AM

Wandering off topic here, but Sedayne, that Stylophony track is something else. I think I have to get myself a Stylophone after hearing that. Quite right about modes and tempered scales. I love to hear untempered intervals in folk music.

Getting back on topic , accompaniment can take many forms, drones, counter-melody, close harmony, block chords. A good accompanist knows this. Chords aren't the be-all and end-all of an accompaniment and they certainly aren't the End Of The Tradition As We Know It.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 May 08 - 07:31 AM

Thanks, Sedayne - I see what you mean: really just setting up a keyboard similar to bagpipes, with one (or more) notes taped down as the drone(s); but what I like, and keep trying, to do is play like I sing / and sing like I play (with both recorder and keys), and I sometimes go through the chromatic scale on my tenor-recorder to help with this (see myspace) - indeed, I've read/heard that recorder comes from the olde-English word "recorden," which means to warble or sing.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 May 08 - 06:37 AM

WAV - If you've got one of those electric keyboards with various voices, choose one with a sustain - organ, flute or violin. Forget about the black notes for now, and imagine the white notes as a pure diatonic Pythagorean scale - though of course it's tempered, which is to say perverted for the sake of western chromaticism so that lot of the intervals are far from pure.

Take a piece of insulating tape and tape down one of the keys as a drone, try the D to begin with, and play a scale using only the white notes between D & the next D. This is a mode - the Dorian Mode to be precise - which has unique musical characteristics beyond either what we might conventionally think of as either Major or Minor. C to C is a Lydian Mode, which is identical to the major scale, each note of which Lydian Mode can become a drone for another mode - D gives Dorian, E gives Phrygian etc. each with their own characteristics largely forgotten in Western musical theory. From hereon in, the territory gets interestingly archaic, but essential, I would think, to any understanding of folk music, which is inherently modal and monophonic, though in no way, of course, does this preclude harmony, or yet heterophony.

For more on this see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 May 08 - 05:36 AM

I agree with most of that Jerry but "English dance tunes often are very chordal in nature"?...Morris, e.g., was originally accompanied with just pipe (tune) and tabor drum (rhythm)...yes?
Sedayne - I do look forward to a singaround with you and your stylophone.
To Captain Swing - never been into train spotting, although they are my favourite form of transport/travel...in a coach one can barely swing a...
And I was going to mention trad Indian music, John, which has generally/always? been one note at a time, yes?...and that's why many there have taken to the hand-pumped version of the French harmonium, yes? Also, just the other day on BBC Gaelic radio e.g., I have enjoyed the tune being intoduced on bagpipes, followed by singing over the drone, as you suggest.
I've never tried, but I'd guess electrical keyboards can be set-up similar to the way you suggest for harmoniums - one key plays that note plus a fifth or an octave above it, as well, yes?...that would give a thicker and, some would say, richer/warmer sound but, again, I'm afraid, I'd probably rather just sing with the top-line melody only.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Jerry Epstein
Date: 04 May 08 - 09:49 PM

Many tunes (both fiddle type tunes and songs) imply chords. But many do NOT do so at all. In many such cases, putting chords under the tune butchers it -- my opinion of course. English dance tunes often are very chordal in nature, Irish tunes often not, thus accompaniments are often not too much more than one chord, and players of things like bouzouki are often playing the tune with some drone strings sounding. To force standard chords on to these, in my opinion, does real harm, and one needs to provide supporting accompaniment (if at all) with considerably more skill and taste then "Where do I change from C to G?".

This is perhaps even more true for the songs. Listen (among countless others) to some of the old ballads on the Jean Ritchie ballad records from folkways (now reissued   on CD and available from Jean and George). TO put chords under these would be a complete nightmare. . .

One of the signs of good taste is knowning when to leave things alone. Unaccompanied songs or tunes are not necessarily missing something.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 04 May 08 - 07:40 PM

Hey WAV, it's very good of you to keep this thread going and everything but we don't want to waste your time. Surely you must have trains to spot?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 May 08 - 06:56 PM

For the ultimate in portable monophony try the Stylophone! Seriously, the new ones have a mini-jack input for an mp3 player, so I've been creating drones by way of backing tracks and using the mp3 player to play them back through the stylophone speaker, and using the stylophone itself to accompany the voice in unison. I might add that so far this has been an entirely domestic diversion, though I dare say I'll be taking it out into singarounds soon.

For a sample of how this actually sounds check out my Stylophony Number One at http://www.myspace.com/dh7haha.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 May 08 - 06:44 PM

For the past three years I've been using an antique Hungarian Citera, unique among the diatonic European Board Zithers (i.e the Langeleik / Epinette / Appalachian dulcimer type) in having a second row of frets for the missing notes of the scale. This is a curious solution to a particular problem which introduces different modal possibilities without compromising the essential purity of the diatonic / Phythagorean scale. In many of these diatonic board zithers, the Swedish Hummel in particular, the melodies are traditionally played by harmonising in thirds against the open drone strings, an approach which certainly suits the citera, be it traditionally or else in the accompaniment of Traditional English Folk Song...