BS: What does patriotism mean to you?

Subject: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 04:52 AM

It's the last scene of the film. The hostages have been rescued. His face covered in soot and ash, our bloodstained, battle-scarred hero presses the weary heroine to his manly chest. Through the smoke someone raises the Stars and the Stripes and the hero blinks back tears as he salutes the flag as The Star Spangled Banner starts playing... It seems that there really are Americans, whose concept of patriotism is summed up by this sort of scene. I guess those people will never understand why the rest of us find it so very funny.
My hope (and belief) is that most Americans (and certainly Mudcatters) would be able to describe their patriotism in a more adult way. I would like to hear from you (and people of any other nation too) about what things really make you proud of your country.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 05:14 AM

The Disparate & Thoroughly Un-United Counties & Countries of Great Britain, whereby Culture & Hist'ry are determined by factors both Geographical & Meteorological, though of course it is our ongoing fascination with this latter factor that truly Unites us as a Kingdom. Here in the North West, to quote Scott Walker, it's raining today. In a moment or two we'll be setting off across the Penile Boundary (sorry, WAV, but that's how I'll forever think of it!) to the North East where, no doubt, the sun will have his hat on.

Whilst in the North East we'll do The Toon (stock up on Stotty Cakes, plunder Spin, RPM & Steel Wheels, soak in the bloodier aspects of The Grainger Market, say hello to Isabella and her Pot of Basil in The Laing etc. etc.) visit family, head for the coast, dip the rock-pools of Saint Mary's Island, have a pint in The King's Arms at Seaton Sluice, and eventually wind up at Joe Crane's Come-All-Ye at The Cumberland Arms in Byker.

In the North-East they ask Where do you belong? Belonging is in the blood; we are are born belonging, and, in time, in belonging we'll all most surely die.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 07:17 AM

Coming from me you might not believe this, if I had my way I would do away with the playing of national anthems, period, as they say in the US and what an appropriate place to start.
In my few visits to my relations I was amazed at the extent the Flag and the Anthem were held in such a degree of patriotism by the people, I couldn`t help but get the impression of a brain-washed society.

In Europe there is not the same extreme patriotism as I witnessed in the US, there is nothing as bad as that awful,`my country right or wrong` nonsense`, get behind the President even if he is a fool, and our brave boys fighting the good fight in every country but our own.
Certainly the Brits regard their army as snow-white, guiltless of every crime they are charged with, for all of that, they are not in the same league as the US when it come to blind patritism.
The curse of humanity when carried out to the extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stu
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 07:31 AM

"Certainly the Brits regard their army as snow-white, guiltless of every crime they are charged with, for all of that, they are not in the same league as the US when it come to blind patritism."

Not all of us do actually.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 07:49 AM

Well, there`s a start, thanks Stigweard.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 07:53 AM

So that's what it isn't, eh?

To me, patriotism is love of my country, even when its leadership perpetrates things that are wrong. It is the moral obligation to speak out against and to try fix these things, within a complex political system designed to assure at least some semblance of majority rule. It is the understanding that what I think, and everyone around me seems to think, isn't necessarily the majority opinion. It is the understanding that we are a very diverse nation, and that it is this diversity that has made us great.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 07:59 AM

alanabit, I don't consider the movie scene as you described it funny. I believe that the American flag and The Star Spangled Banner are symbols of concepts that are very important, concepts taht are very worthy of our respect, love, work, and sacrifice.

In my opinion, patriotism absolutely does not mean blind loyalty.

To convey what I think is most important about patriotism, I prefer to post an excerpt from Barack Obama's recent speech on that subject, and an excerpt from a recent blog article written by activist/journalist Al Giordano that I believe supplements those words:

"...it's worth considering the meaning of patriotism, because the question of who is or is not a patriot all too often poisons our political debates in ways that divide us rather than bring us together...

...some of those in the so-called counter-culture of the '60s reacted not merely by criticizing particular government policies, but by attacking the symbols, and in extreme cases the very idea of America itself, by burning flags; by blaming America for all that was wrong with the world; and, perhaps most tragically, by failing to honor those veterans coming home from Vietnam, something that remains a national shame to this day.

Now, most Americans never bought into these simplistic worldviews, these caricatures of left and of right. Most Americans understood that dissent does not make one unpatriotic...

...what makes America great has never been its perfection, but the belief that it can be made better… And that's why, for me, patriotism is always more than just loyalty to a place on a map or a certain kind of people. Instead, it's also loyalty to America's ideals, ideals for which anyone can sacrifice, or defend, or give their last full measure of devotion. ..

I believe those who attack America's flaws without acknowledging the singular greatness of our ideals, and their proven capacity to inspire a better world, do not truly understand America.

Of course, precisely because America isn't perfect, precisely because our ideals constantly demand more from us, patriotism can never be defined as loyalty to any particular leader, or government, or policy.

As Mark Twain, that greatest of American satirists and proud son of Missouri, once wrote, "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and your government when it deserves it."

That's what patriotism is"…

Recognizing a wrong being committed in this country's name, insisting that we deliver on the promise of our Constitution, these are the acts of patriots, men and women who are defending what is best in America. And we should never forget that, especially when we disagree with them, especially when they make us uncomfortable with their words.

That's part of the American tradition. That's part of why we are proud to be American.
-Senator Barack Obama, "The America We Love"; 6/30/2008

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/30/us/politics/30text-obama.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&ref=politics&pagewanted=4&adxnnlx=1215255845-6nqio

-snip-

"Yesterday, in Independence, Missouri, Senator Obama delivered this speech on patriotism, titled "The America We Love":

.."When was the last time that the United States had a president that understood, on such a clear and elaborated level, that dissent is the essence of patriotism?...

My duty to the causes I care about is not to cry that we've been victimized, or that "the sky is falling," or to play armchair quarterback shouting from the bleachers at the captain on the field that he must make his next play a run or a pass. Nor is it to yell, "I'm taking my money and support and game board and going home." It is, rather, to inform and organize greater public opinion to grow to see the issue as I see it, so that whenever he [Obama] may take office, he will have to deal with the reality that we have created with or without him…

Actually, I have to correct myself already: the highest calling of patriotism is not dissent. It is smart dissent, that based not on self-indulgence or the blurting of one's frustration's out in ways that seek to share the panic or the misery, but based on - even sometimes against great odds - building the objective conditions by which we will win the important battles worth fighting. We don't need any candidate's permission or endorsement of our issue or position to do that, and we sure don't have to wait for any politician to begin organizing the people to set him straight once in power. Ironically, we, the people have more leverage - if we organize - after a candidate becomes an official, than we do during the heat of an electoral campaign when he or she is so singularly focused on the goal of getting elected. And if we can use his own campaign as the basis through which to become organized, that much stronger will be our ability to move mountains when and if that campaign is victorious".
-"Smart Dissent"; Al Giordano; July 1, 2008
http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/smart-dissent#comments

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: kendall
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:01 AM

Dissent IS patriotic.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: kendall
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:28 AM

Azzi, you beat me by 2 minutes with "Dissent is patriotic."

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:29 AM

Just a brief statement here, cos I'm off to the Mariposa Folk Festival in a few minutes...

Everyone feels a natural and deep love for the land they were born upon, and that is the source of patriotism. It's an extended sense of the love and loyalty one feels for one's own family and home and one's immediate surroundings.

A tribe or nation becomes a larger extended family, and the land they live on is the larger extended home.

Politicians naturally make use of that instinctive love in a variety of ways...some scrupulous and some quite unscrupulous. The fact that politicians use it to stir people up into going somewhere else and killing some other people who feel exactly the same way about the land they were born on is extremely sad, but I expect we will see a great deal more of that yet as feeble excuses continue to be found for opportunistic foreign wars of aggression.

Everyone who fights willingly for his country sees himself as a patriot...and those who protest against a war their country is waging also see themselves as patriots. This too is completely natural (since everyone is instinctively patriotic at least to some extent), but the people on the home front who oppose a war of choice are always accused of lack of patriotism by their government and its most enthusiastic backers. They may put themselves in considerable danger on behalf of what is, in fact, their way of expressing patriotism.

Japanese, for instance, who opposed their country's reckless involvement in WWII...or who had doubts about it...were in the greatest danger of being arrested, beaten, perhaps even executed unless they kept their mouths shut. "My country right or wrong" was a credo being pushed very hard in Japan at that point. Germans had the same problem at that time.

Always watch out for a government that launches foreign wars of its own choice...wars in which it is the attacker...and which brands all dissent on the homefront as "unpatriotic". Those governments imagine themselves to be bulwarks of patriotism and morality, but their notion of the concept is not based on morality, it is based on ruthless powerseeking and profiteering at the expense of other people's lives and property.

Such, I believe, is true of the American government in its dirty little wars in the Middle East...and its long record of imperial policies throughout Latin America.

The more dirty laundry a government is hiding, the more it blathers on endlessly to its people about "patriotism"...the flag..."sacrifice"...etc. Don't believe them. It's exactly what the Fascists did in Germany, Italy, and Japan, and you see how they are remembered now.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: kendall
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:32 AM

Here's something to chew on:

" I pledge allegiance to the flag of the multi national corporations and to the profit for which they stand. One interlocking directorate under no government, indivisible with monopoly and cheap labor for all."

(Bruce "Utah" Phillips.)

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:38 AM

Who was it said "Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels", or some such?


G

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:44 AM

Patriotism startes with love of one's own community and works its way up to state and nation and finally, in an increasingll tribalized world the earth and all of its inhabitants... When we love or neighbors and pull together we enhance our quality of life... To me, that is patriotism...

Think globally, act locally...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:48 AM

The sentence in Senator Obama's patriotism speech that resonates most with me is that "[Patriotism is] loyalty to America's ideals, ideals for which anyone can sacrifice, or defend, or give their last full measure of devotion."

-snip-

If we are to be loyal to America's ideals, sometimes we have to take risks and dissent. And hopefully, our dissent will be smart [strategic, with an eye to the main goal and recognition of the short term and the long term consequences to that goal.

Sometimes we have to put ourselves "on front street" by speaking out and/or taking actions that we hope will make the American government and make Americans be true to it's [to our] stated and written ideals and laws.

For me, this is tied to the belief that we should make the world a better place than what it was when we entered it.

On a personal level, disregarding the dogmatic reference in the words, a song that partly exemplifies this for me is "If I Can Help Somebody":

If I Can Help Somebody,

[A. Bazel Androzzo, © 1945, Alma B. Androzzo]

If I can help somebody as I pass along,
If I can cheer somebody with a word or song,
If I can show somebody he is trav'ling wrong,
Then my living shall not be in vain.

Then my living shall not be in vain,
Then my living shall not be in vain;
If I can help somebody as I pass along,
Then my living shall not be in vain.

If I can do my duty as a Christian ought,
If I can bring back beauty to a world up-wrought,
If I can spread love's message that the Master taught,
Then my living shall not be in vain.

Then my living shall not be in vain,
Then my living shall not be in vain;
If I can help somebody as I pass along,
Then my living shall not be in vain.

http://askville.amazon.com/song-lyrics-pass-living-vain/AnswerDetails.do?requestId=9796927&responseId=9797124

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:49 AM

Most of my beliefs on the subject have been stated already, and probably better than I could have done it. It is a subject that has concerned me a lot over the years given my background, examining my own loyalties and whether they ought to be divided or simply co-exist (I chose the latter).

I think my patriotism is culture-based, and not geographical or political.

Any geographical implications are simply a result of coincidence, as culture congregates in (or originated from) a particular area, and they resemble the rings on a tree, the rings getting fuzzier as one ventures further away. So, I am proud to be Macedonian; and then Greek; and then Mediterranean; and then European; and then human; and so on. But the externalisations of my pride are all culture-based and couched in terms of language, sayings, history, customs, music, song, food, nature and so on.

And I like the borders of my patriotism to be fuzzy. Hard borders bother me, and that is why I find politics and government irrelevant to my patriotic feelings. Even the related symbols (flag, National Anthem) mean comparatively little to me, simply signs that there is a chance I might find like-minded people near them, but I am fully aware that I will also find there things and people I do not like.

The etymology of the word (from "pater"-father, i.e. "love of fatherland") is also midly repellant to me, as it is exclusive, it defines hard limits.

Should ever England and Greece go to war I'll be the first to be killed, in the middle, still trying to negotiate a settlement.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:53 AM

Oh I did it again! I'm so sorry. Could a moderator please remove the bold except for the song title? Thank you. From now on I promise to be more careful about how I type in those font commands.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 09:11 AM

I was sitting in an hotel in Blackpool last weekend, talking to somebody I didn't really know. A boyfriend of one of my wife's friends.

I love Blackpool for its association with George Formby, Gracie Fields, cos my Grandma went there on her honeymoon in 1903, and the Oyster bar she visited is still there, and the pub where they had variety acts - Uncle Tom's Cabin.

Also I love Blackpool for its association with George Joseph Smith.
(In 1913 George visited Blackpool with his new bride. They walked down Adelaide Road together - they didn't stop at the first guest house - because it didn't have a bath. Anyway he took his new wife to a hotel in Regents Road and drowned her in the bath there.)

The English classic murder makes me feel intensely patriotic. We have a much better class of murderer than most other places. i was even moved to write a song about George.
http://bigalwhittle.co.uk/id22.html

Anyway back to last weekend. This guy I was talking to, tells me he was a cook in the army.
he said, You ever heard of the SAS man, Nairac?
I said, yes i've heard of him.....
You know, I served him last meal before he went out on his mission and got killed.

The story he told me was that Nairac was working undercover - he had this cover story that he was a busker hanging round IRA pubs and trying to pick up intelligence.

I said, you gotta be joking - hey'd sus him in three seconds, and I started laughing.....
Of course they did, but that's the kind of idiots that the officers were - to come up with an idea like that.....

I don't know if the story is true. It contains so many elements of why patriotism is a complex business. How one's country and its leaders has one holding ones head in ones hands in despair, and laughing out loud.

The truth is,we have to love our countries, because they are so much a part of what we are.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 09:17 AM

The patriotism of Irish Republicans is a whole thing to itself, in a way. It's the kind of thing one can kind of look into from the outside, assuming you're not an Irish Republican.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 09:25 AM

"Lay of the Last Minstrel (Extract)

Breathes there the man, with soul so dead,
Who never to himself hath said,
This is my own, my native land!
Whose heart hath ne'er within him burn'd,
As home his footsteps he hath turn'd,
From wandering on a foreign strand!
If such there breathe, go, mark him well;
For him no Minstrel raptures swell;
High though his titles, proud his name,
Boundless his wealth as wish can claim;
Despite those titles, power, and pelf,
The wretch, concentred all in self,
Living, shall forfeit fair renown,
And, doubly dying, shall go down
To the vile dust, from whence he sprung,
Unwept, unhonour'd, and unsung."

Scott's poem--although usually just the Sixth Canto--is so well known that it almost doesn't require attribution. That said, I wish to echo my friend, ard.

In recent years there has be a resurgence of schools playing the Canadian National Anthem each day in an effort to increase that cheapest of all patriotisms: nationalism. It is that that breeds a shallow understanding of patriotism in our children, and perforce in our future.

When I think of this country I think of our relative freedom and the responsibility that goes with it. I think of a general officer who told both the UN and his bosses in Ottawa that 'No, we are staying in Rwanda because if we leave the 20,000 people we are protecting will be slaughtered'.

"Romeo Dallaire who, as the former head of the U.N. Peacekeeping Force witnessed unspeakable horrors in Rwanda, as extremist Hutus massacred over 800,000 Tutsis and Hutus in the space of a few days in 1994. General Romeo Dallaire did everything he could, pleading for 2000 more peacekeepers to be added to his insufficiently equipped 3000 man force. If they had answered Gen. Dallaire's pleas, the U.N. could have stopped the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Rwandans. instead, following the deaths of 10 Belgian Peacekeepers assigned to protect the President, his forces were cut down from 3000 to a mere 500 men, who had to watch as one of the most horrible genocides in human history took place before their very eyes. Gen. Romeo Dallaire, frustrated, and disheartened by the U.N.'s passive attitude, nonetheless stood for his beliefs, repeatedly confronting his superiors who did nothing to prevent the horrific events from unfolding." A face of Canada.

He exemplified what I think is best in the human character. He--more than most--paid a deep and steep price for my ability to sit back and be proud of this country I call home.

I can't recall the name of the American(?) who first used the phrase "sunshine patriot", but it is clear that it's easy to love one's homeland when things are good. However, I wonder where my country has gone when far too many children (in Canada) are living in a disgraceful poverty and Canada turns its face away. My good friend Beardedbruce has so effectively pointed out, and in doing so 'forced' me into writing letters that likely put me on CSIS's radar because it upsets me that we do sell asbestos products to countries and thus signify to the world that we like to talk the talk but we can get a bit short on walking the walk. And I look at Dallaire and look at asbestos, back and forth, and begin to appreciate a distinction between patriotism and--and what? Love of the good this country and its people can accomplish demands that well-meaning Canadians speak against our country when it does wrong. I think that should be the rule regardless where on Earth one lives. Sadly, . . .

As parents we have the responsibility ot shepherd our children until such time as they can successfully find their own way. We do that with love and the occasional "Are YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?" I feel we are in fact the parents of our countries, and when our countries do wrong we have failed as parents. So lemme ask: when our kids do wrong should we support them in that? Patriotism would prompt me to say no.

This has been kinda rambling, but one word answers aren't adequate.

Alan, you start maybe one thread a year, but man they are awesome.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry Devine
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 09:38 AM

This is probably not a good morning for me to comment upon the subject, as I'm tired and cranky from putting up with all my fellow American patriots setting off illegal fireworks all night, setting up a wild goose chase w/cops (and their sirens) throughout the neighborhood, numerous fire calls w/many fire trucks (and sirens), etc. Ah, the suburbs.

My definition of patriotism is that it is the nationalist equivalent of racism or ethnic or religious bigotry.

Knowing how extreme that would sound to the (obviously) patriotic people who post here, I wandered over to Wikipedia. The entry on patriotism starts out badly. Talks about love and affection for the "fatherland". Not in my world, thanks.

So I was relieved to read a bit further down under "Ethics of Patriotism", other contributions I could embrace as a view I share.

This is what patriotism means to me, from the Wiki article "Patriotism":

"The primary implication of patriotism in ethical theory is that a person has more moral duties to fellow members of the national community, than to non-members. Patriotism is selective in its altruism. Criticism of patriotism in ethics is mainly directed at this moral preference: Paul Gomberg compared it to racism.[2] The view (in ethics) that moral duties apply equally to all humans is known as cosmopolitanism. (In practice, many patriots would see treason rather than cosmopolitanism as the "opposite of patriotism".)"

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 09:51 AM

"Love your neighbours", which goes along with "love your enemies" frequently the same people.

As for moral duties applying in the first place to those close to me, that seems inescapable. I do have a particular responsibility towards the people within my reach. "Charity begins at home" means that if, it doesn't begin there it won't in practice begin at all - and it implies that it certainly shouldn't end there.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry D
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 10:10 AM

I think some defining is in order.

If you relate on a community/cultural level (as a few posters have said), you aren't talking about patriotism, IMO, but of communitarianism.

I think artbrooks and azizi are talking more about what it means to live in a pluralist society, than about patriotism.

And some people, I believe, confuse cultural chauvinism with patriotism too.

The simple definition of patriotism is, from Websters:

"Love for or devotion to one's country"

The dictionary definition over at OED is more in line with my thinking. When you type 'patriotism' in the search bar, you get three entries as hits: 1) chauvanism; 2) patriot; 3) jingoism.

The way I view patriotism in the US today is that it is being manipulated and abused as a form of nationalist devotion and warrior worship in the US warrior nation-state.

It is very important to remember the rise of patriotism coincides with the rise of the nation-state, and begins in earnest in the 18th & 19th centuries in Europe. It isn't a universal concept, shared by all peoples. Patriotism is the product of imperialism and nation building.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Alice
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 10:11 AM

dictionary - the showing of great love for one's country

Azizi, thanks for posting the quote, as I agree with Mark Twain and Barack Obama on the subject of patriotism.

When parents love their children, they correct their behavior, they give them boundaries of what is acceptable. Many of us speak up in dissent to our government because we love the country enough to fight for correcting the bad behavior.

Alanabit, you also asked what made us proud of our country.
The weird thing is, I was raised in my immigrant Irish family loving Ireland more than the US. Ireland had this idealized glow about it, the land that our grandfather had to leave, even though he was a patriot and loved Ireland with fervor. It was too hard to try to keep living there at the time. So we had this land we were not born in that was held up with love and devotion for its music, writing, culture, etc. With another grandfather who was a part of the labor movement in the USA, we grew up critical of America, but loving it with the hope that the government could make us proud of the bill of rights, the declaration of independence, and bring about more fairness and equality for its citizens. So, we were not so proud of America, as hoping it would improve and that it would accomplish the ideals of the constitution.

Boundaries, countries, flags. are merely human concepts. I'm a citizen of the planet first of all. The natural beauty where I live is something the USA did not create, but I am proud that beautiful places have been preserved, like Yellowstone and the other state and national parks. I'm proud that we have, for the most part, encouraged individual creativity, invention and research, and all the life improvements that come from the scientific successes.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry D
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 10:21 AM

I couldn't tell where azizi's words left off, and Obama's began. I hated the way the Mark Twain's quote was used out of context. Makes out Twain to be an uber-patriot, when he was no such thing.

I found Obama's speech to be exasperatingly chauvinistic. I'm voting for him, of course. But he clearly has leapt on to the American chauvinist bandwagon for the general election, and (as you might be able to tell from my definitions of patriotism here) that really bothers me on a deep level. I really hoped Obama would stay above that fray, which appeals to the absolute lowest common political denominator is US politics I was truly hoping he would transcend in a post-Bush America.

I would also argue that we have never truly been a nation based upon ideals beyond nation building, expansionism, commerce, and exploitation of others. I guess in that sense I'm more from the leftie/Utah Phillips & Ewan McColl school. Which is very old school in folk circles these days, especially from the looks of the threads this week.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 10:46 AM

If we are not focused on ideals, it's because people have given up on ideals. Those ideals are what I can love, and the odd times they're put into practice.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 10:55 AM

"I am the Lord thy God" is a good commandment--depending on who says it!"

I have heard that attributed to Bob Dylan.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:06 AM

I'm going to do some more thinking on this and give a decent response later.

But it is not, at least for me, blindly following someone's dictates or bowing and scraping before symbols. It IS understanding and accepting what those symbols represent, and that requires study and thinking and if you can't accept the underlying meaning finding something you can accept.

An officer in the US military takes a unique oath: to support the Constitution, not the national leader but the ideas that are the underpinnings of the country.

More later.

(By the way, Alan: At least in the US military you couldn't clutch the heroine to your bosom at the same time you salute the flag. Regulations prohibit it and besides, and I can assure you that it's really awkward. Only in Hollywood....)

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:07 AM

The two primary views on patriotism in the US are the historic right wing view of restoring values of time past and the liberal view of improving constitutional values for the future.

Recently a wide spread campaign was engaged by right wing shills in the media to demonize anti foriegn war liberals as; unpatriotic, traitors, seditionists who are either mentally ill or enemies who intentionally hate America.

This campaign came very close to a tipping point of massive civil violence. The historic social fractures in America along ideological, religious and educational class lines were targeted by shills like Rush Limbaugh. IT should not surprise anyone that the owners of America pay propoganda shills very well. Rush Limbaugh makes more money than Katy Couric and Gibson combined.

In my opinion the right wing actually abandoned patriotism in favor of blood money. The left wing were unduly intimidated and hid like children from drunk parents.

Patriotism became obeying the word of God as told by the President, a flag pin, signing a loyalty list, blocking free and accurate elections and shouting down anyone who dissented.

What still fightens me is how quick and easy people swallowed the kool aid.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry Devine
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:09 AM

That's a good one, Peace! Now, who do you suppose said this:

"Man is the only Patriot. He sets himself apart in his own country, under his own flag, and sneers at the other nations, and keeps multitudinous uniformed assassins on hand at heavy expense to grab slices of other people's countries, and keep them from grabbing slices of his. And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man"- with his mouth."

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:16 AM

James Boswell tells us that Samuel Johnson made this famous pronouncement that "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" on the evening of April 7, 1775.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:31 AM

Patriotism ..... man, this word really lives on so many levels. For the capitalist, it is a card to be played when one wants to cause the mindless, cliche driven, politic to kick in for greed/profit driven purposes. It has been used to divide average, hard working folks and cause them to vote against their own economic self interest since time immemorial. I have heard my European friends criticize the American style of patriotism, and to some extent (based on the criteria I laid out above) I have a hard time disagreeing. I never salute a flag, I never embrace the "my country, right or wrong..." style of patriotism. I flies in the face of intellect, and it flies in the face of living a moral life. But I do salute the principles that the flag represents.

Now there is another side to patriotism. I find it in the hinted at in the Webster's definition. I suppose, strictly speaking, it is also hinted at in the OED version, yet I find that a bit hard edged. I would take issue with the broad use of "one's country", though. I certainly love the land upon which I live. I love it for its geographic diversity, for its mountains, plains, and vallies (sp?). I love its lakes, rivers, streams. But that is not patriotism, that is love of place. I could love other places as well. Love of the place is certainly a factor in patriotism, a seasoning in the stew so to speak, but not causal. No, I would define patriotism, and I freely acknowledge that this is simply my definition, in a very active way. Far too many in my country allow their patriotism to be defined by words. I much prefer the living, breathing form of patriotism which is defined by the constant struggle to help this place in which we planted that same patriotism to realize its true potential. For all of the naysayers, many of them friends of mine across the pond, this land and its form of government, have created the most unique system of laws and governance in the history of the world. This country has the ability to heal itself and regenerate itself in a very unique way. Every four years it has a change of power without bloodshed. This is almost unprecedented in the history of the world. Real patriotism, as envisioned by the founders, lies rooted in our revolutionary roots. One can see the hand of them, and their vision in the documents they produced. Most of these amendments guaranteed the rights to dissent, even revolt, should the government get out of hand. One has the right, and I would argue the obligation, to get on a soapbox, assemble, criticize, work for regime change, work to change laws, enact law, push for referendum, keep arms, remove leaders and cause social change. The founding documents enshrined these things in a basic Bill of Rights. Every one of them, as a right, has an implied expectation of exercise of them. Because of the diversity of thought and motivations in a land of such multiformity, it is kept to very basic ideals. It is crafted in such a way, and has protections, so that the minority is not overrun by the majority, as much as this is possible in a democratic society.

So to me, the simple answer to Alanabit's question is that patriotism lies in agitation to change for the better, in using the system to allow us to always be moving in a progressive direction towards a better country, one that will evolve into its promise. We started with raw wood. We have stumbled, we have headed down wrong paths, we have committed great wrongs, and continue to do so. Yet we are still the ideal that is aspired to. To be patriotic, IMO, as the Founders envisioned it, is to understand that the United States of America is a goal, a journey, a constantly evolving experiment in the rights of people. They had no way of anticipating if this experiment would work, or what it would become. But their genius created a system which would allow it to deal with whatever came at it, as best suited the people who live here. Patriotism then, is the active involvement in the process, it is the demanding of the government by its people to be better, it is the agitation for the constant change necessary for the system of laws to best serve all of its people, it is in the pride to be called one of its citizens knowing that you are participating in one of the great experiments of all time.

I love my country and its system of laws. I love the land it sits on. I am so proud to be an American, in the context of service to its people. I consider my military service, my community organizing/agitation, my union organizing activities, and the songs I write of the people and issues to all be a part of that love. But mostly, I believe that my patriotism lies in acting among those I come in contact with to promote the true ideals that we are founded on. Just like Azizi, I have pride in the land of my birth, and I believe it is justified and worthy of my efforts and my patriotism.

Prattle machine, ...... off.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:32 AM

It seems to me that one implication of "more moral duties to fellow members of the national community", in this context, is that a genuine patriot would feel a greater sense of indignation at excesses carried out by compatriots than at similar acts carried out by others - including adversaries.

When this isn't the case - which often appears to be the case - the patriotism of the people involved has to seen as pretty suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:40 AM

Patriotism may be the last refuge of scoundrels, but true patriots are wrong to allow scoundrels to paint them as unpatriotic.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:47 AM

I should have added, I fully agree with Samuel Johnson's pronouncement

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:52 AM

Can you actually love a "country"? Or os it a facile figure of speech for something else?

There are key core agreements that make up the foundation of the American national ideal, such as the beliefs named in the Declaration of Independence, and the implications of the original Bill of Rights.

Some of these agreements aren't written down, but are soaked up indirectly, such as the courage of frontiersmen or the sergeant who falls on a grenade for his fellows.

To whatever extent those agreements point a path to a better way of orgaizing our species into groups, they form the basis for my patriotism. I greatly appreciate the notion of the American Experiment started in 1776, and believe the country deserves great credit fr continuing to conduct that experiment.

I think "loving one's country" without being able to identify the factors you actually do love is a slippery slope to unthinking jingoism.

But the truth is, I do love a country -- this one. More than any other reason, because it once held enlightened rationality as an ideal, and may do so again.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry D
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:55 AM

McGrath, I don't agree with what you are saying.

Perhaps we can all agree that when there is external threat to any group’s cultural, physical, or ideological survival or identity, this ideology or identity becomes internally stronger, often even when in diaspora--sometimes even more so within the diasporas (the Israel lobby in the US is a prime example of this, and support for Irish Republicanism to a far lesser extent).

I have a real problem with the idealizing and romanticizing involved in the 'love of country' patriotism, because it ignores the horrific aspects of patriotism. Really, truly horrific. Things our compatriots have done, and continue to do, in our name. We see the glorification of it on certain, very specific official national holidays, like Independence Day.

Sure I love where I live (suburban Denver). It is beautiful country, full of fantastic people.

But I live in a part of the world that makes the sort of romantic patriotism I see among conventional Americans, very patriotic. Denver has a pretty visible Native American and Hispanic American population, and 'patriotism' to them is couched almost completely in terms of the American military warrior ethos, or myriad, complex forms of radical opposition to it. Many of them "prove" their patriotism by being more gung ho than the most right wing white military hawks, who are constantly berating others for the betrayal of the "ideals" of the United States.

We're pretty much surrounded by the Teddy Roosevelt patriots out here.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry D
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:59 AM

BTW, the above quote I asked Peace if he could identify was from Mark Twain.

Compare it, to the Twain quote used by Obama this weekend, and you will see why it pisses me off that Obama is jumping on the jingo bandwagon to get elected, and demeaning Twain (an original sin to a Twain worshipper like myself!) in the bargain.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:09 PM

Thank-you very much everyone for your thoughtful and interesting observations. I am particularly grateful for the way everyone has answered my original question and not descended into trying to prove others wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:19 PM

In the early '70s (era of Vietnam War) there was a notorious bumpersticker that said, "America -- Love It Or Leave It" -- implying that whomever did not agree with our involvement in that war should just leave the country.

That bumpersticker was countered by one reading "America -- Fix It or Forget It".

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:37 PM

Barry, may I have your permission to quote Twain...please.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:42 PM

Reading through this thread, I began to feel that there was little point in making any comment, as just about anything I could say, had already BEEN said.

However, I found that there was one idea in my mind that differed from the rest. If anyone else HAS said this, I apologise for not having spotted it.



For me, it is loving my country enough to be willing to die defending it from the aggression of others, but not willing to KILL at the behest of political masters who would interfere with the affairs of other nations.

It is being willing, verbally to defend my country, without denigrating other nations.

It is accepting that in the past, the government of my country has done some pretty atrocious things, but not being ashamed of my country for what MEN have done in its name.

Given time, there will probably be more, but I think that puts over the gist of my idea of what patriotism should be, and usually isn't.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry Devine
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:45 PM

Donuel, alanbit just thanked everyone for not making things personal. Maybe you could stick to that spirit?

I like some of what Obama said in his speech, am indifferent to most of it, and loathe the rest.

I'm voting for Obama not because I think he is great, but because the opposition is so god awful. NO ONE should be pledging loyalty to Obama or McCain. To do so very much misses the point of the democratic traditions or "American ideal" if you prefer, doesn't it? That we support the rule of law, not men?

The problem with partisan loyalty and loyalty to the person is the very problem the Revolutionary War was supposed to have addressed. Loyalty to the rule of men is loyalty to a monarchy.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:47 PM

Patriotism is a many splendored thing: It encompasses the individual need to be your own person and follow your bliss. To be a hobo or a free-spirit freeloader if you wish. To opt out of the damn capitalist money chase and choose, instead, to support your group and, in turn, be supported. To strive mightily to lean toward the good and to challenge the bad. To lean toward clear thought and away from wishful thinking in place of the clarity. To not abdicate the brains we are all born with. To get by without working---as in being a folksinger. (It was never a job--but it worked.) To get out there and feel the countryside and the humanity there and learn what you can as you experience worlds similar to the ones your mentors were drawn to. To not fly anywhere; to stay close to the earth and the people thereof. To learn from delving deeply into history and the story songs expressing aspects of that history that enlighten and shed valuable light on the sadness and numbing dumbing downward inertia that is powering things in these times.

And that's just some of it...

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:54 PM

Dissent is usually smart. People have reasons to disagree and in the case of dissent,
they must be thought out to be categorized as such.

Dissent is abolition, anti-war, pro-woman's suffrage, unionism (collective bargaining is a form of dissent), protest against forced child labor and was at the basis of American Independence from Great Britain. It is more American than apple pie.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:57 PM

I'm not sure you do disagree with what I was saying, Barry. Or perhaps its a verbal disagreement about the definition of the word. I wouldn't class an atrocity carried out "in the name as patriotism" as a patriotic act, but rather as a deeply anti-patriotic act.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:58 PM

Patriotism will continue to be repackaged and advertised in various ways to serve the group defining it.

Some will work and others won't

For example you will sell more toys named Tickle Me Elmo than 'Vibrators For Children'.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 01:03 PM

Since I was up pretty late last night, being patriotic by participating in American folk singing, food sharing and joke telling, I am late to the discussion...and most of what I would say has been expressed eloquently by others.

Indeed, patriotism MUST involve the ability to love one's country while being as honest as possible about its flaws; and by implication, striving to improve the bad while exulting in the good.

What is seldom expressed when patriotism is touted, is that in countries like the United States, (large and multi-cultural), there are SO many different ideas of what IS good and what actually needs improvement & change. The very openness and freedom we celebrate allows individuals & groups to disagree about what we should value & BE patriotic about.
We (in the USA) currently are reaching the end of an administration which has seemed quite narrow & divisive about how patriotism should be expressed and defined....and here in Mudcat, I have spent far more time than I cared to responding to "America bashing" in some reasonable manner. I worked very hard to remain "patriotic" and respect & defend and love my country while attempting to explain that most of us were quite aware of current temporary deviations from sane behavior.

Patriotism requires **being aware**...as honestly as one can manage, of what one's country is doing, what its history is, and what its professed values are. If most citizens did that, we might need fewer discussions about "patriotism" as a concept.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 01:06 PM

As an American, I feel that patriotism is the understanding of the principles of a brilliant document called The Constitution, although imperfect, it embodied a kind of idealism
of government that wasn't seen anywhere prior to its inception.

True patriotism is a knowledge of the implications of this document and an appreciation
for those who put it together.

The terms "Freedom and democracy" have become debased by those who use it to promote their own political ambitions. They are jingoistic footballs by people who don't really understand what they are.

"Democracy" is an ideal and is always in a state of evolution. It requires participation
as well as knowledge since it is based on the "law of the commons" which means that
it must be used in the service of the majority of people living under it.

"Freedom" is the right of every person living in a democracy to think for themselves
and not be dictated to by political or religious leaders. Jefferson expounded on this
at length. This "freedom" is at the core of patriotism.

Being a patriot doesn't mean having to fight or go to war to prove it. It is a form of
enlightenment in its true meaning.

I believe that the concern many of us here have for the music of our country is an outgrowth of this understanding, that it is important because it defines our values
found in our history.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry Devine
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 01:18 PM

I'm with you most the way, Art--but you lost me at "to not fly anywhere" and being tethered to the earth has never been my nature. But I have absolutely no wish to impose my nature to fly and soar far beyond the environs where I was born, and the people to whom I was born--upon you or anyone else.

Not to the point of a "Don't Tread On Me" Ben Franklin's mindset, which many Americans in colonial times did embrace. And of course, that is the current mindset of many Americans in the post 9/11 era too. Libertarians especially love to fly that flag, as do some reactionary younguns, who use it as a touchstone in their rock, rap, and punk music ethos.

I am more from the "Live and Let Live, and Harm None" school. I don't like the idea of having to "defend" turf. At all. So appreciate living in the civilizations of today where I have never been forced to do that (I was a tad too young for the Vietnam draft, thankfully). And I hate the hegemonic coercion in the post 9/11 era that has driven people to invent their own "brand" of patriotism, in order to be viewed as "acceptable" socially to their fellow Americans.

It makes me really soul sick, in this time of war, to read that Obama referred to the US as "the greatest nation in the world". We are not. We are the greatest nation builders the world has ever seen, perhaps. But that is another kettle of fish entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Barry Devine
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 01:26 PM

My last word for the day, as I'm on the way out the door. I see no need to be either a patriot or patriotic. I see them both as scarecrows and straw men, used cynically by an authoritarian ruling elite (the church, corporate, and founding fathers), to control people, land, and resources in a way that benefits them at the expense of those people, land, and resources.

In other words, I don't believe in any of it, and I am working for the benefit of future generations, and a day when it will be seen as just one more ugly aspect of the "way we used to be".

Have a great Saturday, folks. It's been a very interesting conversation.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 02:51 PM

Usually a bad thing, leads to jingoism, us-v-them-ism, and usually anti-them discrimination.

That said, I think that the ideals upon which the USA was founded are worth defending, and a great idea...

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 03:08 PM

Just read the post Barry D and would have guessed it was from "Letters From the Earth" (which it wasn't). Twain--for those who have read beyond his 'children's books'--was quite scathing in his indictment of puffed up social mores and most forms of government. Thanks for posting it. (Don't mean to sound pedantic there.) Lord but that man could turn a phrase to cut to the stomach of a situation.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 03:13 PM

Barry,

We agree I think. I wasn't clear about "don't fly." I meant that, if you fly, you'll miss connecting with the "romance" of the landscape, the road, and what's there.

Good discussion, yes.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 04:19 PM

Jingoism bears a somewhat similar relationship to patriotism that adultery does to fidelity. There is a similarity on one level, but not on the level that matters.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 05:17 PM

Very droll, Mr McGrath!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 06:31 PM

"The patriot's duty is to protect his country from it's Government"
.... Thomas Paine

That's what patriotism means to me.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:26 PM

Mariposa Festival is going wonderfully! One more day to go.

I love music. I love my country and its heritage (in a general sense...there were some wrong things done, certainly). I love my nation. Some of that is certainly patriotism. I also love the world. Things will turn around some when people in general develop a wider form of patriotism that is truly global in its reach. We have made some progress in that sense in the last hundred years, I think, but we still have a very long way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Beer
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:22 AM

This is a tough one. I say this because no matter what direction I go to I always come back to what our fellow man/woman has done in the armed services for us. And yet I keep thinking that this can't be the complete answer. Hell i never server. So why does it keep being there? In reading all of the above post I have to agree with all answers and yet I have difficulty in expressing why I am a Patriot. Because god damn it it i am. I love my country and if someone call it down I will fight(with words)for it.

Then two recent post on mudcat made me think that maybe i have some sort of answer. One post came in from our mudcat member "Gnu"on the "Happy Birthday Canada" thread. and here is what he said:


Well, it's been my experience that most of the Canucks I know are just pretty much plain folks. Having said that, I must also say that most of the Canucks I know are fiercely proud of their country's history, especially for it's service in war, it's service in peacekeeping, it's service in foreign aid... but, most importantly, for it's service to fellow Canadians.

Some of you know that my brother has been gravely ill for some time. He entered The Royal Canadian Air Force at 08:00h on July 9, 1961 at the age of seventeen and one half years old. He served until he was fifty five years old; he served in combat, in peacekeeping, in foreign aid; he served far and wide; for 38 years, he was on call 24/7... he was as tough as nails.

On Sunday morning, the call came from the hospital. It would not be long. He was comatose. I'll dispense with the details, but, my mother said he would wait until today to leave because he was an Airman, a Canadian Airman. He passed at 8:30 this morning. She said that the flag waving and singing and fireworks today would be for him. She's right. All of it is for plain old folks that stepped up to the plate and did their part to make Canada what it is, like my brother.

Yes, it is a day for flag waving and being proud to be Canadian. I am. And, I am so proud of my brother. One of my heroes.

Polite? Yes. Reserved? Mostly. Narcissistic? Some. Nice? Depends. Fierce? When need be... Fuck, Fight And Hold The Light. We go with the flow eh. If that's okay with youse eh?

Enjoy the day. And be proud to be a Canuck.


The other was also a recent post and here is the Guest submission ( I realize that Gnu came in as a guest but just forgot to refresh his cookie)


My brother was laid to rest yesterday. He was comatose for a few days, but he hung in there until Tuesday, Canada Day, like the true Airman he was for 31 years. All that flag waving and fireworks and such were for him and everyone like him.... just a regular Canuck that stood up and did his duty to make this country what it is.

He was laid out in dress blues with his first cap appropriately placed on the pillow. Canadian Flag to the left of the coffin, Union Jack and RCAF Flag to the right. A tank commander who fought from The Boot to Rome represented The Legion. A piper recently wounded 20km from Kabul played his final tune as he was placed in the hearse. (I teased the piper that he went the "extra mile" to be home to play for Bill.)

"Bill" was born January 9, 1944. His mother died July 20, 1945, from food poisoning after a lobster scoff to celebrate the eve of the due date of the twins she was carrying. The twins were lost as well. My old man was in England, training officer cadets at Aldershot when she passed.

Bill was taken by his maternal grandparents, whereupon my Gramma marched across town, walked into their house, scooped Bill up and marched back home, where he remained until Dad married Mum when Bill was seven years old.

Bill grew up in a rough neighborhood, mostly a mix of Irish and French. Both endured subjugation in their old countries which continued to some extent in the new world. Bill learned to fight at an early age and it served him well in the coming years.

On October 20, 1951, Dad married Mum and Bill had a new family. At the age of seven, things were a bit rough. But, Mum's a saint and she endured. I came along on March 7, 1957, and Mum endured, as did Bill... hehehe.

My earliest recollection of my brother was walking to the street corner with him when I was about two years old. He was on his way to school and I didn't want him to go. I tried to run out to catch up with him in the street and he had to run back and grab me before I was struck by a car. He took a car bumper in the face for me.

He used to tickle me until I couldn't breathe. I hated that. And he used to grab me by the wrists and slap me in the face with my own hands. Prick. But, the day I managed to punch him and make his nose bleed, he smiled and said he was ever so proud of me. We never fought again.

He signed up in the Royal Canadian Air Force on July 9, 1961. At that time, in Canada, you could sign the papers at seventeen and one half years old for induction at eighteen without a parent's permission. It was at that point that he decided that he would throw himself into military life wholeheartedly. And he certainly did. He did not finish high school. That is the reason he never made officer. But, he made Master Sergeant; a rank which I understand does not exist anymore, which was at one time Flight Sergeant (I am not sure of the terms.) And, he had quite a career… from Germany (twice) to Cyprus to Sardinia to Alert, NWT (the farthest north in the world), to HQ Ottawa and HQ CENTAG Europe where he was in charge of security for both HQ facilities. In CFB Trenton, he was the heart of the hospital and Medevac services. He was for decades on call 24/7 for his country. He saw combat, peacekeeping and paperwork.

He was, in the 60's and 70's, one of the best skeet shooters in the world. His Browning custom made over and under with gold inlay is a tribute to him by Browning. It's priceless. Of course, while he was traveling the world, Dad was teaching me how to hunt. So, Bro was a bit pissed off when I showed him up in the bush with my old piece of crap. Kinda like tickling him back… hehehe.

Ya know, there are just tooooo many stories I could tell you about my brother Bill. So, I will end this by saying… Thanks, Bill, my brother, and a hero to me.

All of what GNU has said makes my heart move and be proud that I am a Canadian. So I guess as much as we hate wars, the deep feeling inside me when our country is in peril falls back to our military. Damn I hate saying that. Yet Damn I'm proud of our military men and women that make our country strong and are out there holding our flag high.

Gnu, if you read the above , I hope you don't mind. Yes, I could have just pasted the thread titles but I really felt that as an up standing member, I should paste all of what you said.
Adrien

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Beer
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:26 AM

"Up standing member". Meaning you Gnu. Not me.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:27 AM

I've stewed on this all day and here are some more thoughts.

Gk. patriotes "fellow countryman," from patrios "of one's fathers," patris "fatherland," from pater (gen. patros) "father," with -otes, suffix expressing state or condition.

Children are the most truly conservative people on Earth. They have to be, their present and future depends upon the care others give them. A child will fight moving house UNLESS the parents present it in the right way. The child will fight every change because the child sees it as a threat UNLESS the parents present the change in the right light.

A parent loses a job: "Mom, will we go hungry? Will be still be able to live here?" A parent dies or leaves: "Dad, what will happen to us now?"

The earliest form of patriotism is the self-protection of the child, for a child has its self-interest at heart. It has to because that self-interest means survival, down in the dirt, naked, survival. Adults only exist to help the child survive, from the child's point of view, and the child will resist anything that threatens the status quo.

As we get older our world enlarges: from the immediate family to include relatives (even Aunt Marge, who gives such big sloppy kisses at family gatherings), then the neighbors, then the other kids around us -- perhaps "our gang" or "our friends." And when one of the friends gets into trouble we don't "rat them out" because we are loyal to more than our family now.

Eventually we learn about our town or city, our school, our sports team, and God help anyone who badmouths them! Of course, it's not called "patriotism" at this level, but "loyalty" or "school spirit" or "team support." But it still is patriotism, for we have taken whatever we have taken as part of ourselves, made it "family."

This patriotism creates bonds that are incomprehensible to those who haven't experienced them. Those who have experienced combat -- who have cared for their wounded, dying, or dead friends; who have had those friends kill someone who would have killed them; who have shared their last bit of water during a firefight (combat vets will know what I mean) -- have a bound stronger than love. Cops, firefighters, EMTs, the folks on duty in the Emergency Room (and in Labor and Delivery), in short, those who have been on the front lines of life and death -- form these bonds. They might have a sense of humor that is darker than you can imagine, but it keeps them sane and reinforces the "patriotism" their jobs demand, because in these situations (and others) you must be able to depend upon those with whom you work.

Eventually we expand this still further and apply it to our country. It is here where the trouble starts, for it is here that loyalty to others can be manipulated for the good of a few or for one, a "tyrannos" if you will.

Americans apply patriotism to the ideals upon which their country was founded -- to the ideas written in the Constitution, and even the President is bound by an oath to that document (whether he abides by his oath is another story, and many have not).

I don't think anyone can love an abstraction unless you know what it really means. "Love"? "Country"? Bah. I love my wife and my family and I might learn to love you too, but not until I know you. I attended a reunion of the guys who were part of my National Guard unit when it was activated back in 1968 recently -- I "love" them, but not as I love my brothers or my wife, because I know I can depend upon them, they've proven themselves.

Where I think I'm going with this is that I do not "love my country", but I do love the ideals upon which it was founded by imperfect men trying for perfection.

And look what's happened because of what those men did: revolutions in France, in Ireland, in Russia, in China and in other places -- imperfect as the might have turned out -- were based upon the writings done in Philadelphia in 1789. I could even argue that a revolution took place in the US, starting when a woman didn't give up her seat on a bus.

"The oppressed should rebel, and they will continue to rebel and raise disturbance until their civil rights are fully restored to them and all partial distinctions, exclusions and incapacitations are removed." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776.

Unfortunately and all too often, We teach them to take their patriotism at second-hand; to shout with the largest crowd without examining into the right or wrong of the matter--exactly as boys under monarchies are taught and have always been taught. We teach them to regard as traitors, and hold in aversion and contempt, such as do not shout with the crowd, and so here in our democracy we are cheering a thing which of all things is most foreign to it and out of place--the delivery of our political conscience into somebody else's keeping. This is patriotism on the Russian plan. - Mark Twain, a Biography.

And In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot. - Mark Twain, Notebook, 1904.

To be a true patriot requires work and courage. To conclude what has already become too long, a long quote, again from Mark Twain:

A man can be a Christian or a patriot, but he can't legally be a Christian and a patriot--except in the usual way: one of the two with the mouth, the other with the heart. The spirit of Christianity proclaims the brotherhood of the race and the meaning of that strong word has not been left to guesswork, but made tremendously definite- the Christian must forgive his brother man all crimes he can imagine and commit, and all insults he can conceive and utter- forgive these injuries how many times?--seventy times seven--another way of saying there shall be no limit to this forgiveness. That is the spirit and the law of Christianity. Well--Patriotism has its laws. And it also is a perfectly definite one, there are not vaguenesses about it. It commands that the brother over the border shall be sharply watched and brought to book every time he does us a hurt or offends us with an insult. Word it as softly as you please, the spirit of patriotism is the spirit of the dog and wolf. The moment there is a misunderstanding about a boundary line or a hamper of fish or some other squalid matter, see patriotism rise, and hear him split the universe with is war-whoop. The spirit of patriotism being in its nature jealous and selfish, is just in man's line, it comes natural to him- he can live up to all its requirements to the letter; but the spirit of Christianity is not in its entirety possible to him.

The prayers concealed in what I have been saying is, not that patriotism should cease and not that the talk about universal brotherhood should cease, but that the incongruous firm be dissolved and each limb of it be required to transact business by itself, for the future. - Mark Twain's Notebook.

Yeah, perhaps this should have been on MOAB.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: mg
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:57 AM

Live and let live and harm none. Nice thoughts. The only problem is that for the forseeable future, there are others who will take advantage of your kindly nature and torture, rape and enslave others while you (generically) stand by and wring your hands (generically). mg

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Bert
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 03:15 AM

To me, patriotism boils down to love of my neighbors. For some reason that includes those that I don't like too much.

I was sitting on the hood of the truck last night watching the fireworks and playing the guitar. When I started "This Land is Your Land" everyone joined in, I choked up and could hardly finish the song. That is patriotism for me.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Billybob
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:14 AM

Sounds like the same film at the beginning of the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:29 AM

I never realised I was so isolated in my view of patriotism. No wonder I have difficulty getting in sync with this traditional folk music business.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:45 AM

The best thing that I have ever heard said on the subject of patriotism came from an Englishman. From 1967 through 1969 Father William Casserley was temporarily reassigned from his home parish in the UK to St Giles church; a small Episcopalian church in Northbrook, Illinois in the United States. This was as all of the political and cultural insanity of the late 1960's were coming to a head.
    The battle cry, as it were, of the political right was "My country, right or wrong". Father Casserley pointed out that true patriotism might be better expresed by the words, "My country, and, God, may it please be right".

      Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:47 AM

BTW, shouldn't that film scene, described at the begining of the thread, end with either the soldier or the girl getting a pie in the face?

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:51 AM

Oh! One more thing (if you'll pardon the Peter Falk impression). There is a similar discussion going on in the thread entitled "Independence Day" .

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 10:39 AM

patriotism aligned with 'the military' raises an element of concern with me.

just my 2 cents worth ... payday isn't til next friday.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:22 PM

The original quote was from Stephen Decatur, who said:
"Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; but our country, right or wrong."

A reasonable definition of patriotism, IMO

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 01:05 PM

It's when patriotism and nationalism meld that trouble starts.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 01:11 PM

If hell has a religion, it is Nationalism---and possibly Patriotism -- way too often.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 03:55 PM

Never said it was good--or bad. Just trying to say what I think it means.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:08 PM

Good discussion! I don't think I'm saying anything that hasn't already been said here by others, but here goes anyway!

Patriotism. Tricky subject. I can understand it in a sense—a sort of affinity with the area in which random chance determined that one would be born, especially if one lived in that location for a time. But I have never understood the fanatical adherence some people have to a plot of land.

I have lived in Seattle off and on almost all my life, but I spent my first nine years in Southern California—Pasadena, to be exact. In the mid-1980s, my wife and I flew to Long Beach (which, like Pasadena, could be regarded as a suburb of the sprawling Los Angeles megalopolis) to visit friends for a week or two. When we stepped off the plane at the Long Beach airport, suddenly the feel of the air, the temperature, the smells, the sight of tall palm trees—I had this strange feeling that I had "returned home." My reaction when I got off the plane was immediate and visceral. Yet, during the many decades that I have lived in the Pacific Northwest, I can't say that I really missed Southern California. And when I got off the plane a week or so later at the Seattle-Tacoma airport, I had that same feeling I'd felt in Long Beach. I had "returned home."

During my grade school years in California, along with the usual curriculum (readin', writin', 'rithmetic), I was also instructed in a number of patriotic practices, such as the flag code (proper and respectful handling of the flag, when to display it, etc.), and was required to memorize such things as the Pledge of Allegiance and the words to "The Star-Spangled Banner." I received an extra credit gold star for drawing the American flag with colored pencils, with the Pledge of Allegiance carefully printed beneath it.

The flag, the Pledge of Allegiance, the national anthem, are the external trappings—the ritual—of what we refer to as patriotism. Some folks regard these ritualistic aspects as sacrosanct and never seem to get beyond them to what those ritual practices are supposed to represent (a not uncommon in other areas as well). I began to learn what these things meant some years later in high school. My American history teacher was excellent. Along with the usual high points, he did not shy away from such things as slavery and what led up to the Civil War, and treatment of Native Americans. He also taught civics classes, in which we studied the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. One important lesson that came across was that when the country went wrong, it was generally because it failed to observe the principles stated in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

If one is well-acquainted with the Constitution, a little gimlet-eyed observation reveals that some of our elected national leaders, despite taking an oath to preserve and protect the Constitution upon entering office, did not and do not always abide by that oath. This was (is) generally in order to benefit some private interests with which they were associated or to which they felt some obligation. In fact, it often appears to be something of a game. How far can they depart from the Constitution and the Bill of Rights before the citizens noticed and protested?

Well—quite a distance, it appears. Lobbying has become a commonly accepted practice in American politics. For "lobbying," read "bribery." Why is this tolerated?

I kept hearing that "America is the greatest country in the world." And, indeed, it has some fine achievements in its history. The stated principles on which the country was founded are admirable—and were indeed ground-breaking at the time they were adopted. But if one examines aspects of the country's history that most high school teachers are reluctant to talk about, and if one is aware of the continuing revelations from "whistle-blowers" about how some of our elected officials and our government agencies really operate, it more than establishes that "the greatest country in the world" has a very dark side. That dark side, motivated by greed and power-lust, callously disregards the plight of the country's weakest and neediest citizens in order to pander to the richest and most powerful. And it engages in bullying and exploitive behavior toward other countries around the world, and then either conceals it or wraps it in the flag in order to hoodwink American citizens into accepting it, usually in the name of "national security."

This emotional mantra, "America is the greatest country in the world," blinds many people to the fact that there are older and wiser countries from whom we could learn much. For example, a comparison of the allocation of tax revenues that the United States government spends on such things as education, health, the military, etc., with what other countries spend is very revealing, especially if one also compares rates of infant mortality, longevity, the availability of quality health care to all citizens, quality of education, standard of living—and satisfaction with life in general (Denmark leads here), reveals the uncomfortable fact that, by almost every index, America can hardly be considered as "the greatest country in the world."

If we feel that other countries should embrace the "American way of life," trying to cram it down their throats with the butt of a rifle is not the way to go about it. First of all, we need to abandon that jingoistic mantra and do an agonizing reappraisal of just what our "American way of life" amounts to, and see how it compares with that in the U. K., in France, in Germany, Norway, Sweden, the rest of Europe, in other parts of the world such as Japan, Australia. . . .

There is a simple principle:   if we think other countries should embrace our way of life, then our way of life needs to be admirable and desirable enough so they want to embrace it. We should lead, not by force, not by admonition, but by example. If our hubris as Americans is so great that we feel like we need to be parents to the rest of the world, then there is a valuable lesson in parenting in a work of fiction:   To Kill a Mockingbird, by Harper Lee. Atticus Finch knew that if his children were to grow up to be moral persons, then he had to be that kind of person himself.

I recently heard of a small Central American country (one of the countries usually characterized as a "banana republic" ruled by a petty military dictator) where the democratically elected president and governing body determined that their relations with both their citizens and their neighbors were sufficiently stable and friendly that they had no need of military forces, so they disbanded their military and applied the money saved to improving their educational system.

"But we need our military!" you say. "Why?" say I. "Because of the terrorists! Because of the people in the world who hate America!" you answer. But I then respond:   "Perhaps we should ask the terrorists, 'Why do you hate us so much?' And then we should listen carefully to their answer."

The true patriot is often labeled by others as being unpatriotic. The true patriot is often confronted by the exasperated remark, "Well, if you don't like it here in America, why don't you go somewhere else?" Well, maybe that's not such a bad question. A lot of Americans are descendants of people who emigrated from countries that were tyrannical or oppressive. Many people emigrated from Germany in the 1930s. So that's always an option. But of course that means there would be one less person who sees what's wrong and can help attempt to set things right.

The true patriot is loyal to the moral principles and the stated ideals upon which the country was founded. Not to the elected officials. Especially when those elected officials stray from those principles and ideals. Elected officials, upon entering office, take an oath to uphold those principles and ideals, and it is the moral obligation of the true patriot to call them on it if they depart from their oath. And to keep calling them on it, in the company of other patriots, until they are either shamed into returning to those principles or are replaced by other elected officials who will.

On a travel program on the radio a few days ago, the interviewer asked a travel writer why it is that a particular European country's government seems to be especially responsive to the needs of its citizens. "Because," said the travel writer, "they have a long history of throwing out corrupt or unresponsive leaders. Elected officials are afraid of what the citizens might do if they don't toe the line."

A true patriot is not someone who is rooted to a particular plot of land. A true patriot is one who adheres to a set of principles and ideals. And when and if the country fails to live up to those principles and ideals, the true patriot takes a stand, cries "foul!" and demands that its elected officials either return to those principles or be replaced.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:29 PM

When right, to be kept right, and when wrong to be put right.

Good essay, Don Firth!


A

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: DougR
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:40 PM

Patriotism: To me, it is exemplified by the lump I get in my throat when I see a young man or young woman dressed in the uniform of our country at an airport either returning from a dangerous place or going to one. Or a service man or woman returning home from basic or boot training or returning to report for duty after leave at home is over. It is the gratitude I feel for being able to live in a country where I am free to think, write and say what I please, a place where one can disagree with the point of view of another and still be friends. It is the freedom to travel wherever I please within the borders of my country without having to produce a passport or a driver's license to some federal official.

It's the tingly feeling I get when I hear "The Star Spangled Banner" or "America the Beautiful" performed the way the composer intended it to be heard.

It's responding to your Country's needs when called upon instead of boarding a bus to another country. It is the sadness of seeing and hearing a bugler blow taps over the grave of a young person who has lost his or her life in the service of our country.

It's paying taxes when due to pay for our national security, federal highway system and needed social services.

It has NOTHING to do with political parties:Democrat, Republican, Green or Independent.

I'm older than most of the folks on this forum I would guess, and when I was young we were taught patriotism in our schools. We learned the pledge of allegiance at an early age, and we also learned to respect and salute our flag when appropriate.

I doubt that much of that stuff is taught anymore because one must be politically correct in these "progressive" days, and one must not run the risk of hurting the feelings of those who may or may not believe or feel as you do.

I thank God every day of my life for having been born in the United States of America and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:46 PM

"False are the bickering reigns
Of honor, of homeland, of war
That nourish the torrents of hate,
and flow through the valleys of death,"

    "The Seasons of Peace" Bob Beers

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 08:37 PM

Doug I sort of understand what you mean. As you know I even wrote a song about it. You wrote to me at the time I'd just written it. Remember?

a href="http://www.americasupportsyou.mil/americasupportsyou/america/music/land_called_america.mp3">http://www.americasupportsyou.mil/americasupportsyou/america/music/land_called_america.mp3


However you gotta face it. Young people are very biddable. And young people have always been ready to lay down their lives - sometimes for quite unworthy causes.

We owe to it to our sacred dead, really to concentrate on the worthwhile things that they died for. Rather than their scarifice. And when you get down to it - its really for all kinds of open midedness, craziness and diversity that makes our societies so hard to beat.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 08:44 PM

In my opinion, this was the greatest country in the world until 8 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: john f weldon
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 08:50 PM

A Northern view...

land of the free

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Beer
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 09:54 PM

John,
When did you record this?
Adrien

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: john f weldon
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 10:08 PM

Beer..
October 06, I believe...
JFW

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 10:48 PM

Love the song, John.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:30 PM

I think that defining "patriotism" also leads to the question "What ideals, what or who in general, are you willing to die for?" And don't give me that Patton crap of "Let the other sonofbitch die for his country."

If you were put to the test RIGHT NOW, what would you be willing to die for? Your country's leader? Your neighbor? Because it's expected of you? What your country says it stands for? For your religious beliefs? Your Martin D-28? Your children? Your spouse? For a child you don't know?

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:23 AM

a challenging and interesting song. I enjoyed it. I'd like to hear more of your work.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:29 AM

great! I found your website!

http://weldonalley.ca/bio/biography.html

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 03:37 AM

""Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Rapaire - PM
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:30 PM

I think that defining "patriotism" also leads to the question "What ideals, what or who in general, are you willing to die for?""



For the right to lead the life I was brought up to, embracing the culture and heritage of my ancestors. For the freedom of my family, and the families of others, to live without fear and oppression, and possibly for the rights of those in other countries to do the same (but ONLY if invited, by those people, to do so).

As you can see, a very short list. I would never be prepared to die out of loyalty to any MAN, or any political movement.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 04:20 AM

If what you were willing to die for, was the lodestone, then Soviet Communism would probably be the winner. Twenty million people died for that in WW2 alone.

Its surely more a question of what we live for and the way we live. the way our country has shaped us.

Looking back on the deprivation and starvation that my fanily went through in the 1920's and before the First world war, I'm not sure why my family thought the place was worth fighting for. But the country must have imparted something to them that made them willing to fight, and more importantly - willing to struggle with life and try to achieve something.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 08:54 AM

The question is silly. I'm not willing to die for anything, but I sure as hell would put myself in harm's way to protect my country and my loved ones.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:22 AM

I agree with you, Kendall.

I deliberately phrased the question the way I did and admit that phrased that way it's a loaded question.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stu
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:33 AM

This is a fascinating thread, but something ard said has been in my mind since I replied to it, and I think I finally might have put my finger on how it relates to me and this thread.

Ard said: "Certainly the Brits regard their army as snow-white, guiltless of every crime they are charged with, for all of that, they are not in the same league as the US when it come to blind patritism."

Form where Ard sits and given his experiences of the British Army, this might seem like a fair statement, but reading this thread and the amount of times the military has been mentioned I'd like to offer an alternative view of what patriotism is to me.

I am what many of you would call a typical Brit. Welsh mum, English dad, rumours of Scot and Irish blood in the family but unproven so far - basically a person of the Isles. I've been doing my family history and we're all Ag Labs - until the railways appeared and my great-grandfather (who knew the plough) did what the chap in Nic Jones' song did and left the land and went and worked the on the technological wonder of the day, the railway.

In mid-Wales, my family were prevented from owning the land they worked by a system of bringing in Scottish farmers to run the farms that came up for sale. On a recent visit to one of the farms a great-great grandfather worked on in a forgotten corner of England on the Welsh border the current tenant (a loverly chap, happy to let me look around) was himself a descendant of one of these very interlopers. Gradually, the land my families worked on was taken away under the Acts of Enclosure that finally dispossessed the people of the land their ancestors had farmed and grazed on since they had settled after the last ice age. They were forced into working on large estates and finally off the land altogether and into the urban working-class ghettos of the big cities and industrial areas.

The oppression metered out by The British Empire and the regimes before it has caused as much suffering to it's own poor as it has those of the countries it conquered. Like so many families, my family were people of the land who have been forced to abandon their birthright so rich people could become richer. The governments that oppressed those cultures they invaded so ruthlessly were also oppressing their own people here, and continue to do so, eroding our basic freedoms and waging war in our name on people we shouldn't be fighting.

It's often argued the English don't have the heart for rebellion, but this is untrue and the history of England has many examples of ordinary people rising up against the oppresive ruling classes.

From the days of Eadric the Wild refusing to submit to the rule of William the Bastard, Wat Tyler and the Peasant's Revolt against the Poll Tax and their ancestors rioting in London as Thatcher imposed her own version of this unfair and hated tax 800 years later, Winstanley and the Diggers - still beyond their time now, over 250 years after the government of the time brutally put down these peaceful revolutionaries protest, from the Tolpuddle Martyrs deported for fighting for their rights and the protesters butchered at Peterloo in Manchester for seeking fair representation in the parliament that had spent so long oppressing them, Luddites and Levellers, Marx and Engels inspired to write the Communist manifesto in Cheetham Library, the miners, steelworkers and shipbuilders who fought for their communities on the face of heartless and despicable industry management and ministers.

Here is where my loyalties lay, and in many ways it goes against the very idea of patriotism. I don't feel tingly when I see a Union flag, I feel sick and the national anthem is the antithesis of how I feel about the Royal Family and their parasitic relations. I don't subscribe to being British and I don't care for Tories or New Labour or BNP or Lib Dems or any of those self-interested maggots who want to run the ever-dissolving Union. I'm tired of the politics. I hate cricket.

I do feel tingly when I think of how the ordinary men and women of the home countries have struggled and survived despite the odds stacked against them. The music, stories, accents and languages are the birthrights we haven't been dispossessed of and they are priceless. I go back to the country my family farmed in- land which is in my DNA and I get tingly, I stand on the Atlantic coasts of our islands feeling the might of the ocean in front of me and the depth and history of the land behind me and get tingly, I walk in the woods and fields near my home and watch the rooks and jackdaws loop and whiffle to the roost - this is my home and I love it.

And that might just be worth fighting for.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: DougR
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:18 PM

stigweard: That's a very interesting post. Thanks for writing it.

weelittledrummer: yes, I do remember writing you. Thanks for remembering that I did.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:23 PM

A timely subject for discussion, with the Olympic Games looming - and with them the 20th anniversary of those sensational Black Power salutes. The saluters, it may be recalled, had to be expelled from the games and from the Olymic village because they violated the Olympic spirit. What staggering hypocrisy! The Olympic Games are mired in nationalism for which there would have been no place in the original Olympiads. And it's not just the national anthems. Whether in Hitler's propaganda coup of 1936, the cold-war boycotts or the present Chinese baton-trailing farce, the whole circus is riddled with nationalistic self-interests.

I'm a bit uneasy about the loyalty Kendall and Co claim for their country, for the same reason that I am a bit uneasy about the Mark Twain quote used by Azizi: "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time..." If some guy is fundamentally opposed his/her a country's leadership, and the leadership is representative of majority opinion, how then does he support his country?

Well Big Mick addressed the government/country question pretty well for me. I agree completely with what ard mhacha said, and I also go along with weelittledrummer's general line.

That national pride does not come naturally is evidenced in the spectacle of American children reciting the oath like automatons. Or North Koreans revering their Dear Leader. Or desperate Germans, after years of tasting dirt, rising to salute their fuehrer.

Nationality (like ones religion in an overwhelming majority of cases) is determined not by free will but by an accident of birth. How can we take pride in something that's beyond our influencing? Doug R is on more rational ground thanking his god daily for being born American. But in reality I suspect he is thanking God for having been born into privilege. He might have been less profligate with his gratitude if he had been born into deprivation and disadvantage, which is the fate for millions of Americans.

In 1980 my brother was head-hunted for an aero-engineering research job in Cincinnatti on a salary vastly in excess of what he was earning for similar work in the UK. As part of the enticement he was sent a local magazine containing nothing but real-estate ads. This rather parochial, low-budge product had a front cover entirely taken up with a photo taken from the bottom of a flag-pole, showing the Stars and Stripes fluttering against a clear blue sky. Across the photo, in white characters reversed out of the blue sky, a simple message was intoned: "Remember the hostages." This on the front of a local real-estate magazine, remember. On speaking to friends in the US we discovered that such reminders were ubiquitous across America throughout 1980. It was a major factor in deciding against the job.

I don't say hostages should ever be forgotten of course. But it's a trauma many countries have had to live with. Yet it is only in the US that national pride would require such an excess of maudlin sentiment for month after month, while many other of the world's traumas slide by unnoticed.

To those who see any merit in patriotism I would ask: is it a universal good? Or is it of merit only if ones country is (say) America?

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:31 PM

As if my post above were not already over-long, I must add a sentence that I somehow lost from the end of the paragraph that begins: "That national pride does not come naturally...." Here it is:

They rely in varying degrees on braiwashing and the manipulation of crowd behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:51 PM

"Patriotism" is a word, like "worship", that has no meaning to me. My first allegiance is to my concept of Divinity, and because I believe that there is no separation between the creator and the created, I don't see any greater value in one part of creation over another, or in one inhabitant of the creation over another.

I feel very fortunate to be able to have a relatively good standard of living (though I would feel even more fortunate if I had access to medical care), but I know that I could have that (and access to medical care) in some other countries, so I don't see myself as living in the best country in the world... just one of the best when it comes to standard of living. I don't think I feel any freer in the US than I would feel if I lived in any number of other industrialized countries. I definitely feel freer when I'm in Canada than I do here in the US.

But as has been mentioned already, when the country of one's birth is in trouble, sometimes it's better to stick around and help make things better than to go elsewhere and wait for the trouble to catch up with you.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:41 PM

Weelittledrummer - I don't think it's exactly accurate to say that those 20 million Russians died in WWII for "Soviet Communism". That just happened to be the government and system that was in power at the time. They did not die for an "ism", they died for Mother Russia....for their homeland...for their families and homes and all that they ever knew. They would have done the same if any other "ism" had been in charge of Russia at the time.

Likewise, most of the Germans who died did not die for Naziism, in my opinion. They died for Germany, for their nation, for their ancient traditions and loyalties, for the families and towns that were at their backs...as well as for the men in their unit or on their ship who fought beside them.

It's always that way. People fight for their national identity, their homes and families, and their brothers in arms. And THAT is the heart of what truly is patriotism.

The governments and the political masters and their propaganda come and go like masks over a face, and they are soon replaced by new ones...but the nation itself remains as a true and living thing that goes deep into the hearts of its people.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 06:08 PM

Don't forget that the Russians (and probably others) used prisoners as shock troops -- leading the charge, provided with weapons and ammunition just before the charge, and if they didn't attack or retreated they were shot. Death behind vs. possible death before: take your pick.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 06:09 PM

"Death behind vs. possible death before: take your pick."

May I have what's behind door number three please, Rapaire?

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: alanabit
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 04:04 AM

I have been reading and learning a lot here. People have been telling us what the word means for themselves and not what it should mean for everyone else. Thank-you, because that is what I asked for. The way you see these things is inevitably subjective, formed by your personal experiences, history and knowledge. It springs from a complex cocktail of facts and emotions – many of which can be contradictory. Many of you have described that very openly and honestly.

Stigeward's superb post encapsulated a lot of the complex feelings, which I also have for my native land – although I come from Cornwall originally. Cornwall is even smaller than Wales and its native language disappeared with Dolly Pentreath two and a half centuries ago – largely as result of the systematic destruction of its "non English" culture. To many countries, the Union Jack was a symbol of imperialism, exploitation and suppression. Like all empires, that exploitation began at home.

Yet the community and the land of Cornwall feel palpably mine somehow. It's a way of life, which I understand and when I stand on Bodmin Moor or Kit Hill or the banks of the Lhyner, I love the very stones and they are part of me. I don't feel that same way about England, although I revere parts of the history and am blessed with (an albeit very imperfect) knowledge of its literature, music and culture.

Fate made me a busker, a songwriter and now a teacher and I have lived most of my adult life in Germany and travelled around Central Europe. My girlfriend is German. My children, the irreplaceable treasure of my life, speak German to me. I admire this country with its basically liberal and fair outlook. Its human rights record since the war shames that of most other countries. It has learned from the past and worked hard to face up to its imperfections. Germans can suffer sporting disappointment and react with a cheerful and fair, "Well done!" to their opponents. The Germans gave the world the "Wohlstand", which in my opinion is one of the most significantly decent and realistic concepts, which has actually been carried out in the history of our planet. Yet with all this to admire, I will never be German.

I understand (as much as anyone can) why my country was one of those at war with Germany just over half a century ago. If you go back and read George's post about how he would feel about a conflict between Greece and the UK, you will understand exactly about how I feel about the UK and Germany. I want our football team to beat theirs. I also want to watch the game together and drink with the Germans before and after.

For me patriotism starts with loving the people where I came from. What makes me proud of my country is the way the people reacted to the Penlee Lifeboat Disaster. The day after eight local men lost their lives, trying to save strangers from a stricken Irish coaster, thousands volunteered to take their place. This is as different to the brutal jingoism of "Ingerland, Ingerland" from racist thugs as one can get. Kindness and generosity to strangers makes me proud of my country. We don't always get it right and we have done many horrible things along the road. We are no better than anyone, but we are as good as anyone. That is the sort of patriotism I wish to embrace.

Please excuse this long and rambling post. I am very grateful for all those, who have taken the time to illustrate so beautifully what it all means for you.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stu
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:24 AM

After reading Alanabit's post I realised it looks like I was saying I was born in Wales - I wasn't, but this was part of the point and I think I wasn't clear enough.

I was born in Winchester, moved to a town just outside Birmingham just before I was two and was brought up there until a traumatic move to a town south of Manchester when I had just turned 16, so this would make me English by birth (although I consider myself a Brummie first and foremost).

The reason for doing the family history was because my family had such a strong Welsh cultural bias and for my Mum and I it was always a very important part of our upbringing, and I wanted to find out for certain where we had come from. The sense of Welsh identity was so much more defined than the sense of Englishness on my Dad's side - as though there was a firmer base so to speak.

All I have discovered on this so far fantastic journey has confirmed my views on patriotism and it's consequences. I am connecting with aspects of my Welsh heritage I have never been able to - the music, language (which I've tried to learn in the past), the stories and poetry in this the most oppressed of all the Celtic nations.

How do I reconcile these two sides of my family? Well, not through patriotism, unless I want to take sides and deny either my Englishness or Welshness. No, the common thread is the fact on either side my family were ordinary people who over the years have (like so many people's families here) worked the land under the oppressive gaze of the landlord and king, soldier and knight, parliament and government.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stu
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:27 AM

100 - bostin!

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: freda underhill
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:45 AM

It's late, and I'm very tired. I've been writing a submission about some dangerous things our government did, motivated by patriotism.

but, here are some good quotes about such negative aspects of patriotism...

George Jean Nathan:
Patriotism is a arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles.

Goethe:
Patriotism ruins history.

Hermann Goering:
Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. quote verified at snopes.com

Howard Thurman:
During times of war, hatred becomes quite respectable, even though it has to masquerade often under the guise of patriotism.

'night all

freda

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:09 AM

"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace"

by John Lennon


..... biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:11 PM

Right on, John.

Ever notice that on futuristic science fiction shows an inhabited planet is usually depicted as a single, united culture? That's because that is the intelligent thing to accomplish eventually on any planet if its people are going to grow up enough as a culture to be worthy of journeying to other worlds.

And if there are many such worlds (as I think there may well be) then the ultimate accomplishment would be to unite them all in a friendly association.

But first we have to do that here.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Joe_F
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:30 PM

A recognition, based on plenty of evidence, that nations are, for the time being, necessary evils, and mine is, for the time being, among the most necessary & least evil.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:46 PM

why are they necessary?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:47 PM

"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace"

by John Lennon


                      Imagine there's no heaven,
                      Above us only sky...

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 01:48 AM

Nations are not necessary...but they are habitual. They arise out of people's tendency to focus on differences and similarities and then divide up accordingly into groups. People are curious about those who are different, but they're also usually scared of them to a certain extent.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Bored in July
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 09:07 AM

Interesting thread. As I read through it, the one thought that leaps out of my heat dulled, slow moving mind is that our chauvinism runs deep, whether it is for nation, place, culture/community (ie people), race, or religion.

The only thing that seems to run deeper is the impulse to rationalize one's own chauvinism as acceptable, and the chauvinism of "those people" (whomever they are to the specific individual) as unacceptable.

I don't believe it is 'human nature' to be chauvinist and bigoted. I believe it is learned behavior, like which way to wear one's hair or the manner of dress is learned behavior. It can be unlearned.

However, there is an interesting article in today's Chicago Tribune about this very subject. Titled "Why is the flag so important?", the link is below (I apologize for not knowing how to provide clickable links in this forum, but I'm a very infrequent visitor):

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-oped0709flagjul09,0,5401676.story

It talks about the myths that drive nationalist sentiments, and how they are exploited by partisan politicians to drive voters their way. Quite an interesting article.

As to what patriotism means to me?

Nothing. Not a damn thing. That puts me in the distinct minority here, apparently. It puts me in the minority among the general public too.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 09:58 AM

Would one say patriotism is fanatism to one's country/government and is it about as dangerous as let's say, religeous fanatism? I would have say it is.

Good article Bored in July ... thanks for sharing it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Bored in July
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 10:17 AM

I like the article because it explains in a nutshell why Obama will win in November. He took a page from the Reagan Republican patriotic myth rule book, and made his life story conform to the "American Dream" myth.

This is why people who disagree vehemently with his "stands on the issues" (a voter myth?) will vote for him--the feel good factor.

His policy positions are very close to the Republican's policy positions, yet the Obama Democrats are absolutely blind to these facts of his candidacy.

This article explains why that can be, when it is the Democrats who, in recent decades, have painted themselves the "rational facts" party (and lost), and the Republicans have wrapped themselves in patriotic myths (and won). It is the patriotic myth feel good factor, which will trump the facts every single time.

Tables are turned between the parties this time, but it is still the same damn dangerous game, because the only thing it is effective for is getting elected. And truly, any well financed charlatan or snake oil salesman can cook up an effective biography rooted in patriotic myths. Which is why we tend to elect idiots instead of effective leaders in the US.

The only other Democrats in post-WWII America who were able to do this very effectively were Kennedy and Clinton. Obama's "American Dream" mythic biography has matched their (and Reagan's) mythic biographies nearly note for note. One would think Hilary could have done much better on this, considering who her husband is. But then, she wasn't born in "Hope" Arkansas.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 01:08 PM

Just to point out that JFK was a singularly ineffectual president. While he did outbluff Kruschev re. the Cuban Missile Crisis, he was also responsible for gwttung the US actively involved in Vietnam. His succesful programs were the ones executed by LBJ, after Kennedy was shot.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 01:18 PM

It means Nationalism that is primarily used and abused for purposes of the ruling class.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 04:29 PM

The sentiment of patriotism is essentially local or regional. As Yeats wrote "My country is Kiltartan Cross, My countrymen Kiltartan's poor..."

When nations are small enough, like many European nations, it can appropriate enough to use the term in relation to whole nations.

But when it come to vast political entities or empires, stretching across whole continents, some other term seems needed, because its not the same thing at all.

"Marriage" means something different when it involves multiple partners.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 04:38 PM

"It is the patriotic myth feel good factor, which will trump the facts every single time."

Absolutely. When it comes to the Democrats and the Republicans, it is always the party that can most effectively use the patriot myth feel good factor which will win the election. It is the candidate who most effectively embodies the patriotic myth feel good factor who wins.

Raw emotion and general but quite vague impressions based on raw emotion will beat out facts with not much trouble at all in an American election, because it's an emotional drama, just like the dramas you see all the time on TV shows. Emotion always drives the plot. Facts just get in the way...and they bore people.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 06:39 PM

If patriotism is about military warfare, then it has no useful meaning to society.

Patriotism is not just being willing to go out and shoot someone for love of country.

I think that the real patriots are the people who contribute something worthwhile to
society and country such as artists, scientists and people in the healing profession.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: alanabit
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 04:08 AM

It is pretty sad that some people identify patriotism/nationalism etc with antipathy to foreigners. That does not need to be the case at all. I think it is important to start by valuing the people, who are nearest to you - as McGrath pointed out earlier. However, there is no need for it to stop there. The military can be a good test of one's commitment, because it shows that you are prepared to sacrifice your life. It does not have to be the only one by any means though - or even the first one. The firemen, who raced into the twin towers on September 11 had every bit as much commitment to their fellow citizens. If that is not loyalty I don't know what is.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 08:12 AM

definitions of patriotism ...

"love for or devotion to one's country "

"love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it"

For the firemen involved on 911 ... their country was probably the last thing on their minds that morning ... it was there commitment and devotion to their fellow human beings (citizens ??)regardless of race, nationality what compelled them to their perform duty.

Let's not get the concept of patriotism mixed up with "good outstanding people"

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: alanabit
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 08:54 AM

Bill, with all respect, I asked what the word means to you. I appreciate that you like to identify the word with a certain definition.

I think you are probably quite right about the firemen, who did not think about flags, symbols or whatever on the day. I also agree that they would have gone in for people of any nationality, race or group. I don't have a problem with identifying that sort of heroism -and service to the community - with a form of patriotism.

I was trying to follow up Stringsinger's point about military service not necessarily being the litmus test of patriotism. Love or devotion to one's country does not necessitate indifference to others. I should hope it would mean the opposite.

Americans have given their lives to save foreigners. Cornishmen gave their lives to try to save Irishmen from a stricken coaster. I think that is something worth being proud of.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 09:01 AM

Firefighters do not give their lives willingly. I know that for fact. But there are times when they come out on the short end of the odds and that's that. Structures collapse, explosions occur, toxic gases exist. They can and do sometimes end up in dangerous situations. That goes with the turf.

Training helps overcome the instinct that says, "All in all, I'd rather be in Philadelphia." And training helps keep 'em alive.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 09:59 AM

"Americans have given their lives to save foreigners. Cornishmen gave their lives to try to save Irishmen from a stricken coaster. I think that is something worth being proud of. "

In my opinion this is no reason to be proud of Americans, or Cornishmen, or any specific national group. Simply of the people!

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 11:24 AM

"Americans have given their lives to save foreigners'The last refuge the old"look what we've done for you" speech. Sorry that line's best before date expired a long time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 12:43 PM

I would think that every nationality in the world has given lives to save foreigners on some occasion or another. Altruism is not limited to specific nationalities.

As for military intervention, that is normally done for some kind of unstated economic or strategic gains...while the public is told that it's being done for some wonderfully altruistic reason.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 01:29 PM

L.H.: I think you may be selling the voting public a bit short. I think people vote for a candidate because they feel that person will best represent their point of view on important issues. To me, the important issues in the next USA election will be high fuel prices, dependence on other countries for oil, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, perceived problems with possible nukes in Iran, vacancies on the Supreme Court, national security, immigration reform, among others. I doubt patriotism has much to do with it.

Sorry for the thread drift Alanbit.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 01:05 AM

Alan,

    Many of the things that you have observed about patriotism stem from the fact that you are a unique man in a unique position. First, you are one of those rare few who is willing to understand that there is a world beyond the barrier of your front door. Second, you are an Englishman living in Germany during the early, and possibly most formative years, of the European Union. To anyone who is paying attention to what is going on about them it has to make one wonder about a few things. I'm assuming that's part of the reason that you started the thread. I'm also assuming (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that part of the question is not for the present or yourself but for what all of this might mean for your children and the generations beyond. Obviously, I don't have those answers. I do, however, have a few thoughts on what the past can teach us about what might be waiting in the wings.

A brief history lesson:
    In the years between the American Revolutionary War and the American Civil War if one were to ask any given individual what country they were from they would most likely answer that they were from Georgia or Massachsetts rather than the United States. People thought of their home state as their country. It was not until after the American Civil War that something resembling a national identity started to form. It was not, however, until our entrance into the First World War (on the world stage for the first time in common cause with other nations) that we started to identify ourselves as being, first and foremost, Americans. We have done so ever since.

    That is not to say that there are not points of regional or state pride (ask any Texan), or that there are no regional rivalries (ask any Oklahoman about the Texans). As a native Chicagoan I always get a small jolt of pride whenever any Chicago sports team wins a game (we do it so seldom that any victory is a thrill).

Back to the present (such as it is):

          The EU came about in a different way than the United States and is a very different political and economic entity than the U.S. It is much like the United States was before the passage of our Constitution. The exception, of course being that, the EU members have been sovereign nations for a heck of a long time and are in a much better position to maintain that sovereignty than were the thirteen ex-colonies. It is possible if not probable that historians decades hence will see the EU as the logical next step after the Common Market.

          Patriotism, however, is not a politcal or economic phenomenon. It is social in nature. You think of yourself as English. Your girlfriend and children identify themselves as German. The generations of your grandchildren and great-grandchildren will grow up with no direct experience with the world as it was before the EU. For them it will always have been there. This cannot help but have an impact on the social fabric of each of the EU member nations individually and on the EU as a whole. How they think of themselves, what they feel they are a part of, and what sort of geographic space commands their pride will, by the very nature of their experience, be different from ours. I have no idea how it will be different or whether the change will be good or bad. I suspect that it will be good given that it will stem from one of the most useful and productive things that has ever happened in Europe – the creation of the EU.


Just a couple of random thougths for whatever they may be worth.


Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stu
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 04:47 AM

"This cannot help but have an impact on the social fabric of each of the EU member nations individually and on the EU as a who."

If course it does, but the EU is a vastly different entity from the US, and it was founded for economic and (I suspect) military reasons and it's attempts at social enhancement have had mixed success and are the subject of vigourous debate. Even the idea of an EU president and a written constitution have been rejected by the people and there is some very intense discussion happening now about how to carry the whole thing forward.

In Europe we've long looked past our own borders and I think alanabit's viewpoint is very much a European one. We're not insular by nature and isolationism is (thankfully) a state few European countries have ever been able to achieve. Even at the height of the cold war Europeans were deeply interested and involved in each other's affairs, and now we are reunited, gathering new members into the trading block and we are experiencing the biggest internal changes since the end of WWII.

In my opinion, patriotism for the EU will always be a non-starter - it's not what it's about. The sovereign nations have lived together in peace and war for so long these are not simply regional differences in a disparate group people from varying backgrounds all mixed up and settling a (to them) new land as the US was, but countries whose people share a common history which dates back to before the last ice age, but who have very different languages and culture.

I'm very pro-Europe, but only as an economic entity to counter the steamrollering capitalist behemoths of the US and the Asian economies (there are still socialists in Government in Europe, though none left in politics in the UK), which the member states alone could not hope to stand up to alone. I'm no more likely to wave the EU flag than the Union Flag or any other national flag come to think of it.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 07:37 AM

Doug, I'm also wondering about the Supreme court vacancies. Obama is going to be the next president, and he owes the Clintons, so, I see Hillary on the court.

Doug, Doug!, someone get some smelling salts!

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 09:50 AM

stigweard,

Quite right. The EU is a very different sort of entity inits nature and origins from the USA. It's a good thing, too. It illustrates a lesson that many of my countrymen and, sadly, most in the US Government have yet to learn -- that the US model is not for everyone and will not work everywhere.

Stephen Lee

BTW, my bad. That was a typo and shopuld have read "the EU as a whole". Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 02:35 PM

I come from that generation of Germans for whom "patriotism" was a bad word in contrast to the immediately preceding generation whose patriotism excluded all non-Aryans and meant looking down at other nations. We did laugh when the anthem was played, we looked the other way when the German flag was unfurled. Though we looked sports and enjoyed German wins we never waited for the winners ceremony for it was too nationalistic for our tastes. We were in no way proud of the country of our birth.

President Heinemann said it best for my generation when he was asked whether he loved Germany and replied: "I don't love countries, I love my wife."

Horkheimer also said it for us: "Patriotism in Germany is so awful, because it is so baseless (unfounded)"

An older quote:

"The cheapest form of pride however is national pride. For it betrays in the one thus afflicted the lack of individual qualities of which he could be proud, while he would not otherwise reach for what he shares with so many millions. He who possesses significant personal merits will rather recognise the defects of his own nation, as he has them constantly before his eyes, most clearly. But that poor beggar who has nothing in the world of which he can be proud, latches onto the last means of being proud, the nation to which he belongs to. Thus he recovers and is now in gratitude ready to defend with hands and feet all errors and follies which are its own." (Schopenhauer)

I must say that I was completely surprised (18 years old then) when in Ireland in a pub to the last tune all people stood up. It took me a minute to guess it was the National Anthem.

Now, growing old, I somewhat hesitantly have a milder look at my own country (sixty years without a rebirth of the wrong nationalism did help here). I watch with a mixture of uneasiness, surprise and a little proudness a young generation who without embarrassment wave German flags during sport events and would say that they of course love their country and for whom patriotism isn't a bad word. But I haven't changed completely. I could say I love das Weserbergland, a region in Germany, or the lake of Constance (Bodensee) but I could never say seriously I love Germany.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Joe_F
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 08:59 PM

By "patriotism" I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, _not_ for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality. -- George Orwell (1945)

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 06:27 PM

For me, a true patriot would be one who loves his country and his culture, is proud of its achievements, while recognising, and objecting to its faults and excesses.

He would be one who can talk about his country without giving an impression of arrogance or superiority.

In short, he would, in his manner and deportment, reflect (as an ambassador), all that about his country which gave him reason for love, and pride.

Don T.