The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Nick
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:05 PM

I enjoyed your post Don.

The thread obviously satisfies some sort of need for all participants. The thickness of WAVs skin is inversely proportional to his talent so this is an ideal spot for a perfectly consensual S&M relationship to ensue. Of course you'll all be aware where the power resides in such a relationship.

I think I'll pop back in 1000 posts or so.

Any chance this could be summarised into a weekly digest?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:03 PM

You are right, it is a coup, Wav could be languishing in obscurity, but now we KNOW his singing is lousy.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:20 PM

I'm getting curious now...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 12:51 PM

LH listen even if you keep it secret. It's so bad it's almost an art form. It should be part of every condemned prisoners required listening. No scratch that - it would have to be a bad crime - really bad

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 11:04 AM

I haven't even listened to any of WAV's singing yet. I feel it is a bit of a coup on his part that so many of you have. The man is getting exposure. His efforts are bearing fruit. ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 11:01 AM

Kinell, WAV, your singing is worse than your fucking poetry!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:59 AM

I'm with BWL, I don't check this thread out often. I don't remember if I posted at the very beginning, but since I don't want to join MySpace to listen or read, I've skipped out on this dubious pleasure.

I look forward to hearing Don's recordings in the expectation that I will enjoy them and probably learn from them.

You got that right, s&r! I count myself lucky that when I was growing up I got to hear him many times. I wish I was still there in the PNW--I'd go to all of the concerts with Don and/or Bob.

SRS

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 07:00 AM

As I said before, Don Firth is a treasure and we're blessed to have him with us at the 'Cat.

Years of hard work but years of loving it. Years of practice while enjoying every moment. Years of listening to and assimilating the thoughts of others. All that combines with true passion and above all an homage to the reality of each song, treating each with the respect it deserves so that honesty shines through...........All of this comes together to get reviews like that.

And you Wav? Please.......Don't even try to defend your lame positions. Try taking the advice and say thanks.

Otherwise have a Coke and a smile and shut the fuck up.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 06:27 AM

Here's a quote from a review of one of Don's concerts:

'One song struck me in its beauty of form and execution: a simple, sad Scottish ballad of longing sung by Don without accompaniment. His great voice rose and rumbled up in mourning to haunt the rafters of that fragile church with the memory of a love now centuries dead; the beauty of the ballad and of his steady voice struck me with a kind of pure sadness that is all but impossible to find in modern music- for a moment I felt as if I, too, were wandering the hills and valleys of Scotland singing a hopeless plea for companionship. I had always liked folk music, but never really pursued it- after seeing Bob Nelson and Don Firth perform, I have no choice but to seek it out whenever possible.'

When you get one review approaching that WAV I will take you seriously.

Listen to the voice(s) of experience.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 06:04 AM

The RECORDING quality is acceptable, but that just means that there are no splutters, coughs, scratches, hisses and glitches, apart from the actual singing.


Why don't you want to learn how to sing well? That is not inconsistent with singing in an 'earthy timbre' as you like to put it.

Don's advice about singing with church choirs is very helpful, it's helped me a bit. Plus, it's traditional. I woudln't be surprised to learn that many of the trad singers got their start through singing in church.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:52 AM

If the recording sounds like you sound, then the recording quality is acceptable. If you sound how the recording sounds then the singing is suspect.

When you have any credentials in music you may criticize others; I look forward to hearing Don's recordings in the expectation that I will enjoy them and probably learn from them.

I am sure however that if I were to offer suggestions as to how his performance could be improved he would listen to the comments carefully. If they had validity he would I'm sure accept the comments in the spirit offered. If not he would say why not.

You are in no position to offer anyone musical advice WAV. Really.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:31 AM

". . . because that's how the majority of English trad. song and music has been performed over the centuries." (me)...Really? Where did you get that idea?" (Don)...short memory - you WERE involved in the "Chords in Folk?" thread.
And some advice for you Don - even my strongest critics have said that my recording quality is acceptable, and it was done on an old second-hand computer, with freely-downloadable software, and an inexpensive mic...so why don't you pull your critical finger out and finally give recording a go? I, for one, certainly will give them a listen - even though my favourite/Top Friend American music remains the chants, drums, and flauting of Amerindians.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 10:30 PM

You need to be here on a Thursday for that :-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 10:25 PM

Thaks, Smokey. We have a similar tradition of assimilating newcomers in the US deep south, only our tradition involves a banjo, a tree stump, a jar of Vaseline, and squeelin' like a pig.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 10:21 PM

That's one possible interpretation.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 10:20 PM

It's an old English tradition, BWL.
Immigrants have to be assimilated, and this is how we do it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 09:59 PM

This is the first time I've looked at this thread. To quote John from Hull, "Waht's this all about?" Looks like the principle objective is to harangue some poor, delusory, masochistic, low talent schmuck. Am I warm?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 09:26 PM

The boy stood on the burning deck;
He wished he'd never been born.
His father told him he wouldn't have been
If the condom hadn't torn!
                                       —BurmaShave?
                                          (probably not. . . .)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:52 PM

"Brace y'self Skippy!"

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:40 PM

What I'm waiting for is some new poetry - if he found himself a girlfriend we may be blessed with a few sonnets.. imagine that..

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:13 PM

Well, and the audience...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:29 PM

None of my relatives, Smokey. (Well . . . there is my drinking uncle, of course. . . .)

Yeah, Little Hawk, it must be all in the delivery.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:04 PM

Yeah. After all, if Shane were to do that among a group of his...peers...I'm sure it would draw raucous and enthusiastic applause.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:58 PM

"standing in the middle of the room wearing Groucho glasses and a lampshade on his head and farting bird calls is not really what one might call "high-class entertainment. . . ."

Surely it's all relative, Don....?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:03 PM

". . . because that's how the majority of English trad. song and music has been performed over the centuries."

Really? Where did you get that idea?

"- another strong aspect of our tradition...agreed?"

Well, yes, I guess one could say that committing the tune to memory before trying to sing a song is kind of "traditional," yes. I believe that is what most people actually do. Kind of basic, really.

####

No, I don't think so, Little Hawk. I've spent far too much time already on what is obviously a lost cause. I've wasted too much time and too many words on David.

Back to working on my book, setting up my home recording studio, and practicing.

There are a couple of people around here who already have the equipment and want to record me, but I'd rather do it in my own time and in my own way. I will, of course, follow my own advice, and when I've recorded enough songs for a CD, I will have others, whose opinions I can trust to tell me the brutal truth if necessary, listen to what I record before I start burning CDs and/or posting stuff on sites like MySpace. I like Paul Burke's fable (above, at 29 Oct 08 - 08:49 a.m.) about Kieran and the leprechaun. I've been told that I'm hypercritical of my own performances, but I'd rather be that way than to put something out that that reeks.

I think this will be far better use of my time than trying to convince some half-wit that standing in the middle of the room wearing Groucho glasses and a lampshade on his head and farting bird calls is not really what one might call "high-class entertainment. . . ."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 03:52 PM

Don (and LH - with his mind off Winona!) - "And that's IT from you, David? No comment?"...for what it's worth, I read every word, as usual, and agree with some, as usual. E.g., if I stuck to playing just the tunes for the rest of my days, as a folkie that would NOT be a bad thing, because that's how the majority of English trad. song and music has been performed over the centuries. Also, I think your drills would do some good but (with my limited time and, yes, capabilities) I'm better playing a line, singing a line, playing a line...because that also aids me with committing the tunes to memory - another strong aspect of our tradition...agreed?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 03:12 PM

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Gawd...devastatingly memorable verse there, WAV. That should shut them up for a bit, right? ;-)

But will Don Firth be able to resist another in-depth attempt to reach your soul with a sincere and serious 1000-word essay and get you to see the light? That is the question. I'm on tenterhooks here.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 01:47 PM

And that's IT from you, David? No comment? Just another one of your "poems?"

Well, okay. I tried.

I don't know why I bother, but I just went to David's MySpace site and, once again, listened to the songs he posted (how's that for masochistic!??) and came to the conclusion that he simply doesn't have the ear and / or the discrimination to judge his own singing and playing. He obviously doesn't have a clue about just how painful listening to him really is! If he had, he would never have put his efforts up on MySpace for all the world to hear. And writhe at!

He must be unembarrassable.

Well, no. That's not right either. He just doesn't know!

If others found what I posted above to be of value, then it was worth doing. I'm particularly fond of those two quotes. They pretty much delineate my approach to folk singing.

Thanks, guys!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:04 AM

That first verse should be in a textbook as an example of the very worst attempt at poetry one could ever dream.

Your poetry sucks Franks, just like your Mommy........

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:35 AM

You've got to start writing poetry again - this stuff is valueless. I mean priceless.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:41 AM

From fleas in the Bible, thanks IB, to...

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

Poem 116 of 230: MOSES GATE - SUMMER 2000

Bordering Bolton
    Lies land with lodges -
Grassed and paved around,
    With decking built on.

As well as these lakes
    Of human-made kind,
Croal, Irwell, canal
    Meet there like three snakes.

There's 'paths for horses,
    A birdwatching hut,
An info. centre,
    Plus walkers' courses.

And, surrounding these,
    The woods have grown thick,
So, viewed from afar,
    Form a sight to please.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:11 AM

Hear Hear.

A well written piece that anyone who sings could learn from. This is a well considered post, researched and linked to valid sites. Please recognize that this is an attempt to help a learner: no petulance; no 'getting one over'; Please read it WAV. You don't get such good advice often in your life.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:49 PM

Admirably put Don. My hat is off and the remains of my forelock is duly tugged. You have a level of tolerance, restraint, patience and wisdom that I do not possess.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:18 PM

Hey, c'mon, this is getting a bit ridiculous—not that it has ever come close to being anything but.

Under the assumption that David is sincerely interested in folk music and isn't just a troll, and that despite the silliness of some of his assertions about who should be allowed to go where and why, and who should be allowed to sing what and how they should be allowed to sing it, I will put on my genuinely serious face and make one more attempt to bring order out of chaos.

Okay, David, listen up.

If you are truly interested in folk music and you enjoy it and you want to perform it, that's great. I'd say more power to you. Keep at it.

But—if you want to perform for other people, unless you are content just to drop in on folk clubs and merely be tolerated out of politeness by the other people there, and especially if you have ambitions of performing the songs you sing for a wider public, then you owe it to them, at the very least, to learn some basic skills, one of which is to sing in key and on pitch.

Playing a line on the recorder and trying it duplicate the pitches with your voice is better than nothing. But it would be better if you were to play the line and try to sing it at the same time. You can't do it with the recorder, obviously, but you say you play keyboard? Okay, you should be able to do it with that. So do it.

And your idea of not accompanying English folk songs with chords as you sing is counter-productive. When you are learning a song, once you have the tune in your ear (by repeatedly playing the melody line), sing it while playing the appropriate chords. This doesn't have to be a fancy accompaniment, just "block chords" will do. If you wander off-pitch, the clash between your voice and the chords will let you know. Once you know the tune solidly and can sing it without wandering off-pitch, then try singing the song without accompaniment.

If you have a cassette recorder, or, preferably, a small digital recorder (which, I presume you do have, since you've posted recordings on MySpace), record your singing, then play it back and listen to it carefully with a critical ear. Do this as a regular part of your practice (I mean, you do practice, don't you!?). Once you think what you hear when you play it back is just fine, then have someone else listen to it; someone whom you can trust to give you an honest evaluation—even if it hurts.

I'm not suggesting that you take voice lessons, although this would be the best approach, because good singing teachers are expensive, and I assume that if you are unemployed, you couldn't afford lessons. But—do you attend a church? If so, talk to the choir director. My local Lutheran church has a superb choir director, and he conducts free classes (in addition to regular choir rehearsals) one evening a week for choir members and anyone else who wishes to attend. In any case, you could ask the choir director to listen to you sing and give you an evaluation and make some suggestions. Perhaps you might even volunteer or audition to sing in your church choir. If accepted, this is a good way to get a bit of free vocal coaching and do some solid practice singing a variety of songs under fairly stringent conditions (not wanting to draw glares from the director or your fellow choir members).

And as I tell people (particularly singers of folk songs) who are nervous about taking singing lessons, or getting any kind of vocal coaching, all a voice teacher can do is teach someone correct vocal technique (how to use breath support, to sing without damaging their voice, to project, and help develop their ear so they can sing on pitch—unless they are just hopelessly tone-deaf). Taking singing lessons or coaching will not make you sound like an opera singer. Believe me, there are lots of young singers out there aspiring to sing opera who wish it was that easy; that all they had to do was take a few lessons and, voila! next stop, Covent Garden or The Met. Ain't gonna happen!!

One well-known singer of folk songs said the following:

"The value lies inherent in the song, not in the regional mannerisms or colloquialisms. No song is ever harmed by being articulated clearly, on pitch, with sufficient control of phrase and dynamics to make the most of the poetry and melody, and with an instrumental accompaniment designed to enrich the whole effect."

So don't think that because you want to sing folk songs, you don't have to at least try to sing well. The source singers, from whom these songs come—even if they don't have very good singing voices—at least try to sing as well as they are able.

Show them some respect by doing the same.

And as to the manner in which the songs should be sung, regarding matters of interpretation, vocal mannerisms, accents and such, another fine singer of folk songs said this:

"The most ticklish question still results from that awful word 'Folk Music,' which gives the erroneous impression that there is one body of music with one standard texture, dynamic, and history. Actually, the term today covers areas that are only connected in the subtlest terms of general feeling and experience. A United States cowboy song has less connection with a bloody Zulu tale than it has to 'Western Pop' music; a lowdown blues fits less with Dutch South African melody than with George Gershwin.

"Most of us agree in feeling as to our general boundaries, but more and more we search for our own particular contributions as musicians within these variegated provinces. There doesn't seem to be much point in imitating. What, after all, is the point of doing Little Moses exactly like the Carter Family? Yet it seems vital to convey the massive, punching instrumentals and the tense driving, almost hypnotic voice of the Carter Family performances.

"On the one hand, there is the danger of becoming a musical stamp collector. On the other, there is the equal danger of leaving behind the language, texture, and rhythm that made the music worthy of our devotion in the first place. So we have arrived at a point where in each case we try to determine those elements which make a particular piece of music meaningful to us, and to build the performance through these elements. By continuing to learn everything possible of the art form—techniques, textures, rhythms, cultural implications and conventions, we hope to mature constantly in our individual understanding and creativity in this music."

Read these two quotes carefully and think about them.

The first quote comes from a singer who was born in England and was a descendant of the peerage. He was educated in England, in Germany (prior to World War II, where he first developed an interest in singing folk songs), in Canada, and in the United States. He learned some of his first songs from fellow students in Germany, and early in his career was greatly inspired by Swedish lute-singer Sven Scholander to follow the tradition of the ancient minstrels. His singing attracted the attention of impresario Sol Hurok, and he has sung at both Carnegie Hall and Town Hall in New York, and regularly sang some fifty concerts a year during his active career, along with club appearances and American School Assemblies programs. He has many, many records out under various labels , including a dozen under his own label.   He had a repertoire of over seven hundred songs, mainly from the British Isles and the United States, but also from Germany and France.

The second quote comes from an immigrant to the United States. He was a German Jew who escaped from Germany when he was a teen-ager, just prior to or during World War II. He became interested in singing folk songs and taught himself to play the guitar. He was particularly interested in American blues, but eventually sang songs from a wide variety of sources, including the Appalachian Mountains, the Caribbean, and the British Isles. He was also a fine flamenco guitarist, and occasionally played for Spanish dancers. He was one of the finest, most subtly creative musicians and singers of folk songs I have ever met. Think of it, David:   a German Jew who sang American blues and played flamenco! And did both very well indeed!

The first quote is from Richard Dyer-Bennet. The second from Rolf Cahn (on the left, with guitar and kazoo, playing a bit of jug band music with Jim Kweskin and Debbie Green).

It's good that you want to honor your own culture. But—what "your own culture" actually is seems to be a bit ambivalent at this point. And your understanding of what English culture amounts to is severely limited and greatly flawed. Even I, an American, can see that. I don't think you have lived in England long enough to really know what English culture truly is, beyond your limited preconceived notions.

And as far as folk music is concerned, you've only been at it for four years. You are a neophyte. A beginner. Rather than trying to tell people who have been involved in folk music for many years, and some for many decades, how they should be doing it, you should be listening to what they have to say, learning from them, and thinking about it. You do have a great deal to learn. Far too much for you to be trying to tell others what they should or should not be doing.

Download these pages and print them out. It is a PDF file containing seven pages altogether, three pages of vocal exercises and four pages of instructions. I use them myself and they help keep my voice in good shape. Follow the instructions and practice them.

Vocal Exercises.

And again, record them as you practice them, then listen to them carefully. Keep the recordings so you can compare them and check your progress.

Go. And sin no more.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:12 PM

Liking your singing is a universal NO WAV.

There are some kind people who perhaps pretend to like it.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:03 PM

Don & IB - We just fell, for his little attention-seeking ploy, didn't we?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:28 PM

where does the Bible mention fleas, please?

Check it out : Flea in the Bible.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:14 PM

I know I did..

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:09 PM

It's a JOKE, David!!

SHEESH!!

But think about it: do you think you could run around naked in a primitive garden with nothing on but a fig leaf and not pick up a few fleas?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:04 PM

Exodus 8:16-19
Psalm 105:31

As any fule kno.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 05:13 PM

Don - where does the Bible mention fleas, please?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 11:05 PM

Wavy has no meat to speak of and no women speak of it of course.

Its unkind to speak of male cranks
In the presence of young David Franks
His tiny tool is so small
Women laugh til they fall
And to offers of sex say, "NO THANKS!"


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 10:25 PM

"I said whether folks happen to like particular piece can be subjective...one man's meat..."

Well I subjectively don't like your stuff because it's horribly out of tune. Forget 'intonation problems' - you're tone deaf and you'll never be a singer while ever there's a hole in your arse.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 09:04 PM

From the Archives:

There was an inventor named Gene
Who invented a sex machine.
Concave or convex
To please either sex,
But, man! What a bugger to clean!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 08:59 PM

Dirty Limericks? We can do dirty Limericks now? Oh, boy!!

There was a young fellow from Kent
With an organ so long that it bent.
To save himself trouble
He inserted it double,
So instead of coming, he went.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,His Brother's Brother
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 05:04 PM

Poetry
What
Is
It
Good
For.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 04:05 PM

A jaded young lady named Jill
Tried a dynamite stick for a thrill
They found her vagina
In North Carolina
And a bit of her clit in Brazil

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 04:01 PM

Poetry you want? Okay.

Note on the Antiquity of Fleas

Adam
Had'em.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 03:55 PM

Enough!!!

Give us more poetry.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 03:37 PM

Said by YOU.