BS: Reasons for being a Conservative

Subject: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 05:55 PM

There are a multitude of reasons to be a Liberal posted here, and a multitude of definitions of what it means to be one - big or little "C".

Do you call yourself conservative?

why?

What is it about your views that puts you in that category?

Thatcher - Cameron - Bush - Putin ...

Are those even fair examples?

My mind is open and willing to learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:03 PM

Its interesting, Eric Alterman called Eisenhower and Nixon and even Joe MaCarthy self described liberals. That doesn't leave much room on the right.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:05 PM

I was hoping to read definitions from conservatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:25 PM

Well, if you look over on the "Why We Are liberals" thread, one of our recent conservative arrivals listed a bunch of reasons. Maybe it is unfortunate that he just borrowed my own statements about the liberal tradition and took them as his own, but it does say something.

I wish we could get clear propositions from the right side of the aisle in their own words and their own thoughts. It would be more believable.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Conservrative
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:27 PM

I am conservrative because Rush tells me.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:31 PM

I did read it and that was the inspiration for asking the question.

We're pretty swamped in liberal politics on this site and I had hoped to create a forum where Cons might feel comfortable setting out their own philosophical stalls as it were.

I can of course check up on wiki etc, but I was curious about what it means to mudcat cons, and to see what different perspectives they take.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:35 PM

One problem is distinguishing between Classic Conservatism, which is generically liberal in many ways, and "NeoConservatism" which warps the definition and is actually some sort of radical imperialism or some such.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM

The only definition that counts in the US is talk show conservatism, which is just an ego-stroking way way of saying selfish.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:53 PM

I've got a vicious wit when I want to use it.

Many of us here are pretty articulate and capable of turning a phrase so sharp it could cut godzillas toenails.

I generally tend to lean towards political left out of loyalty to my priorities and my long held views on how best to achieve a reality where they are best served.

If you see yourself as a conservative, what are your priorities and how would you see them met?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 07:05 PM

Lox,

They are afraid of this thread. With good reason.

Here is a staring point for them.

Rules of the MudCat Conservative.

1. Only argue where you think you can win!
2. Stick to the negative.
3. Do not say what your candidate is for only why you hate the other guy.
4. Don't express an opinion until you get the consensus of the opinion leaders.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 07:11 PM

You want reasons? Here're some good reasons...

1. Keep society from gettin' taken over by wimps and bleedin' hearts!
2. Keep up the old classic styles in quality clothing instead of the dumb and vulgar stuff I see bein' marketed lately. Fedoras, yes! Backwards baseball caps, no!
3. Protect the sanctity of the Tree House.
4. Stop the greasin' of grapevines by liberal saboteurs.
5. Stop givin' guns a bad name.
6. Stop givin' self-defense a bad name.
7. Stop givin' slimy little jerks like Woody Allen money for inflictin' their whininess on the rest of us.
8. Give Dirty Harry back the respect he deserves. He gets the job done.
9. Move jobs back to America! We need to make more stuff here, not buy it from Asia.
10. Promote small business. There was once a couple hundred unique car companies in America. Now ya got the Big Three. Ya know what I call that? Corporate Communism, that's what I call it. That ain't real competition, it's a virtual monopoly, and you notice what a lousy and overpriced product they make?

There are a lotta phony conservatives out there and the government right now is full of 'em. They ain't real conservatives at all. They are traitors to real conservatism.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 07:17 PM

"Maybe it is unfortunate that he just borrowed my own statements about the liberal tradition and took them as his own, but it does say something."

Amos,

Never, at any time, in the other thread, did I claim those thoughts as my own. I was simply trying to make the point that the thoughts that you listed could work for both liberal and conservative. I was actually trying to keep the conversation civil and thought provoking. I've had those types of conversations with you before.

But since you posted the above statement and made me look like some type of plagiarizing village idiot, I think that the point has been made, by you, that if you call yourself a liberal, then you must be quick to judge motives and prey upon those who you consider inferior because of their soft spokeness and evident lack of access to the latest edition of Roget's thesaurus.

Or maybe you're just too smart. Maybe all of that knowledge is just loosely compiled in the wrinkles of your grey matter and you just skim over the subtleties that evidently a few other people in the room caught.

Whatever the reason is, it is now evident, to at least this conservative, that you have no interest in trying to at least understand the opposing side.

That's what wrong with congress now. On both sides.

Oh....and by the way....

"one of our recent conservative arrivals"

It hasn't been recent.

I've been here since Feb. '05.
I dropped off for a while and when I returned, I couldn't remember my password. After trying several and variations of what I thought it could be, I emailed Joe Offer. I never received a response from him. Go figure.
I mean with the name of Susu's Hubby, why would Joe, a man who I know doesn't agree with me politically, want to help me?

So I see that you haven't changed a bit. Sort of flies all up in the face of the term "liberal" doesn't it.


Hubby...

er...YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 07:26 PM

Why don't you post as GUEST, Susu's hubby?

Why don't you answer Lox's initial question?

By the way, I still don't consider Bush/McCain supporters to be conservative.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:02 PM

JTS
I don't post as Guest because then I can't send or receive PM's.
And by the way...I really don't care what you consider.

In answer to Lox's question....

What good would it really do to answer the question? Just go back and read some of my posts as Susu's Hubby.

That's really such a broad question and can be answered in very broad terms.

In the other thread, I pressed for an answer because I knew the same thing about "liberals".

They're both impossible to put an exact definition on because of the nature of all of the beliefs surrounding each issue. Besides, with the preconceived ideas that everyone has in their heads about what the terms mean then this thread is doomed to lapse into a meaningless argument between the few that just hang around to find chinks in the other's armor. Just look at the "Why we're Liberals" thread.

Look at the oil issue.

In just that one issue, you have the opinions of people in Texas who say drill, drill, drill. But you also have the people in Washington state saying no drilling for the good of the spotted owl. But then you have the Gore dominion screaming about global warming because of the burning of those same fossil fuels. But if you look at the alternative energy such as wind, electric, and biofuels, you have people still screaming because of the emissions of steel plants that make the windmill towers or the environmentalists screaming about the cutting down of trees for the poles to string of electric lines or you have the middle class soccer moms screaming about the cost of corn or other foods because of the demand put on those items in the interest of making biofuels.
You see, with just that one issue, it opens the door for thirteen other ones that tie in and connect.
We can go by dictionary standards all day long but in the end, will it make it any clearer to you?

I think you know the answer to that.


YES!!

By the way the following link helps to make my point.


I'm in total agreement with this.....

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:05 PM

Blues a nicer colour.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:18 PM

Thanks for the link. V. interesting.

But you didn't read my question.

Nor how I qualified it.

"What is it about your views that puts you in that category?"

"If you see yourself as a conservative, what are your priorities and how would you see them met?"

"I can of course check up on wiki etc, but I was curious about what it means to mudcat cons, and to see what different perspectives they take."

Are there any others?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:22 PM

Oh and WLD - I had meant to ask - what about brits?

My daughters eys are blue.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:39 PM

That doesn't really help me either

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:40 PM

I am a conservative because I believe in the Constitution as ratified and amended. Any branch of government overreaching its enumerated powers is doing wrong.

I am a conservative because I believe the Federal Government should be responsible for the defense of the country, entering treaties with foreign governments, moderate as between the states, and assist in major projects that benefit the country as a whole, but should largely leave everyday life decisions to local governances and the people.

I am a conservative because I believe that individuals, families, private secular and religious organizations should work ameliorate the problems of the commonalty to the extent possible, with as little governmental intrusion as possible. Governments should be the last resort, as it were.

I am a conservative because I know that living is dangerous. I don't need or want any governmental group abridging anybody's right to do things that may be bad or harmful for them. I want people to exercise the right to make their own mistakes, learn from them and go forward.

I am a conservative because I believe that individuals should be held accountable for their actions, and should so hold themselves accountable as well. If people make informed decisions--or uninformed decisions where information is available-- which harm them, they should accept the consequences. This includes social, financial and health decisions.

I am a conservative because I believe in the following hierarchy of controls in one's life: self, local (city, town) ordinances, state laws, federal laws…with less control the farther away from local control one gets.

I am a conservative because I believe that Conservatism generally makes decisions more in keeping with what I believe. [And as I have said 'generally' that means I don't believe that Conservatism always lives up to those ideals.]

I keep seeing the term Neo-conservative (Neo-Con) pop up here at Mudcat. I have asked what this means, because it isn't used, from what I can see here , as what it meant from the 1970s when it first gained currency.   So allow me to close with an analogy (this is tome is already a page long):

Many Jews 'keep Kosher', meaning they follow food rituals, and eat only foods so prepared. But for some Jews, Kosher isn't good enough, so they follow 'Glatt Kosher' ritual, which I lovingly call "More Kosher than thou." As many liberals don't think the term conservative accurately connotes the meanness of us as is, I believe they have co-opted the term Neo-Con to describe conservatism as really venal.

JotSC

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: fumblefingers
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:44 PM

Asking a conservative to explain why he's conservative in here is a bit like inviting a young girl into a whorehouse and asking her to explain why she's still a virgin.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:46 PM

From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:34 PM

Was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:52 PM

Now there's a big plate to chew over!

Amy other cons care to add their tuppence?

I note with interest that without Obama in the mix the discussion another minority group concerned about prejudicial discrimination.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:54 PM

*edit*

I note with interest that without Obama in the mix the discussion *reveals* another minority group concerned about prejudicial discrimination.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:54 PM

I use Neoconservative to refer to a specific group of US leaders, starting with William Kristol, who have self identified as such.

But this definition seems more complete.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:03 PM

The main reasons for being a conservative? Selfishness and greed.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:10 PM

Its generally a veneer for self interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:24 PM

I found this definition in the Urban Dictionary under "I'm Alright Jack". It fits my idea of conservatism.

"Attitude of "every man for himself, survival of the fittest, devil take the hindmost", ... but also, that all the possible advantages (however gained), success (however won) and satisfaction (whatever the cost to others) belong to me first!" Narrow-focus, narrow-gauge pseudo-Darwinian selfishness glorified as a sensible philosophy of society and life."

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:29 PM

And what exactly is wrong with self-interest? I mean, look, you gotta have some self-interest if yer gonna be conscious at all. Everybody has some self-interest. That don't mean that yer gonna be antisocial. I figger that my own natural self-interest depends on bein' reasonably in tune with other people's self-interest too, right? It is in the self-interest of all of us to get along with each other and prosper, ain't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:43 PM

William Kristal is not a US leader, anymore than, on the other side say, Chris Matthews; he is a conservative commentator. He does pretty much hold to that idea, among many others, but the Wiki definition seems pretty narrow,

It seems, though you have chosen to comment on my definitional observation of Neocon, but have chosen not to engage my reasons for being conservative, as called for in the thread tile.

Richard Bridge and you have reached inanely simplistic reasons. What is it about some liberals that they can't engage in dialogue, but do bumper sticker very well?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:13 PM

Keep in mind that Richard Bridge, as a non-American, may hold a different definition of liberal as well as conservative...

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:42 PM

Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others.

                                              Ambrose Bierce

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:56 PM

John,

I have no problems wit most of your reasons. I will say that most are not uniquely conservative. No doubt we could have discussion on the practical application of them.

for example...

>>I am a conservative because I believe that individuals, families, private secular and religious organizations should work ameliorate the problems of the commonalty to the extent possible, with as little governmental intrusion as possible. Governments should be the last resort, as it were.<<<

I am not a Liberal but I would think that most liberals would say the government help should be a last resort. Speaking from experiences of what I have seen, it usually is. You think that people are saying, to families and churches "Don't help me. I'd rather go on welfare?"

Of course Kristol is a leader and Matthews is not. Kristol pronounces and people listen. Matthews is a disorganized clown.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:57 PM

JotSC provides a thoughtful list. In fact, on the face of it, it is hard to disagree with most of the 'sentiments' expressed. I do see, however, some unspoken implications buried in those 'reasonable' ideas, relating to methods of implementing them.

I would like to see some other input before I say any more, though....as this IS supposed to be a thread asking conservatives for their feelings.

(Yes, I realize that they are in the minority at Mudcat...but several have often had opinions. Perhaps they can elucidate the basis for their positions)

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:58 PM

When I read definitions of conservatism, I find that I'm quite conservative in many of my political beliefs. But how do any of those--fiscal responsibility, accountability for actions, belief in the Constitution, belief that the Federal government shouldn't interfere with individual and family affairs--apply to the present Administration?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:04 PM

Hubby:

My apologies for not recognizing you.

And also for misinterpreting the way you borrowed my words. I have had my own words used against me a number of times in similarly clever ways before, but with less polite motivations. You might understand that it can be irritating to see your own composition twisted, but I understand that is not what you meant to do,.

I am not sure I agree with your fundamental point that all those thoughts could define conservatism as readily as liberalism, though. I think the term conservative is not well defined in these conversations.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:15 PM

It seems to me that both of these terms have become so twisted neither one of them mean much of anything anymore.

                   Look at Ronald Reagan, for instance. The right wing praises him for being conservative, but all he ever did was conserve the right to be stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:31 PM

I always thought I was a conservative, but not in terms of any Republicanism I have witnessed in my adulthood, coinciding with the "neoconservative" period. If you read the wikipedia entry for neoconservative, it does describe something venal. Reactionary social intolerance, aggressive foreign policy with preemptive war, and a cold-hearted approach to social safety nets, with corporate influence in government seemingly unchecked (last observation mine). Sorry - but if "neoconservatism" is as described in wikipedia, it's no use to pretend that it's just a different approach to the same objectives all citizen should hold dear.

(Not helpful, Lox, I know. Sorry.)

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 12:04 AM

Actually, heric, it sounds to me like what Wikipeia is describing in fascism.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 12:39 AM

Amos,

You are a true gentleman.

Thank you.

I, too, apologize if my reaction was overblown.



YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:20 AM

Where is Martin Gibson when we need him.

Say what you want about Martin, he could always be relied upon to state the conservative point of view in the most objectionable way possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:33 AM

Chongo Chimp for president!

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 06:03 AM

""There are a multitude of reasons to be a Liberal posted here, and a multitude of definitions of what it means to be one - big or little "C".

Do you call yourself conservative?

why?""

Define Liberal......US or UK definition?
Define Conservative.......US or UK definition?......Large or small C (Conservative or conservative)

When you have done so, we will know something about the intent of your question, specifically which of us is the intended target of the s**tstorm of personal abuse which our responses will inevitably provoke.

One look at the comment below, which came, predictably, from Jack the Sailor, will tell you what the rest of this thread will be like.



""1. Only argue where you think you can win!
2. Stick to the negative.
3. Do not say what your candidate is for only why you hate the other guy.
4. Don't express an opinion until you get the consensus of the opinion leaders.""


If you are really interested in MY reasons, PM me and I'll answer.

Meanwhile, I'm sure you will forgive me if I decline to join your Tory bashing session.

HAVE FUN!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Cats
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 06:17 AM

Having just had a meeting with David Cameron where I asked him about state education..... [I know, name dropping], I am now even more determined never to vote conservative. 'Change in education stops teachers being complacent.'

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Cats
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 06:19 AM

Sorry, forgot to add, Mike Gibson, aka Cllr [a genuine Consevative councillor] is in Sidmouth this week so is Mudcatless.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 09:34 AM

"I keep seeing the term Neo-conservative (Neo-Con) pop up here at Mudcat. I have asked what this means, because it isn't used, from what I can see here , as what it meant from the 1970s when it first gained currency."   

Hi, John. I'd like to point out that the term "neo-con has been closely connected in thought with the term New World Order, and that goes back to the very late 1800s. I posted a link to the article done by a prof at Harvard--I don't think of Harvard as being any better than many other universities; that's just where the guy worked--a few years back.

Hope you've been doing well. Good to see you posting again.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 10:36 AM

Peace, I understand that Neocon and New World Order have often recently bee been used conjunctively. However, most conservatives I have heard use NWO as a pejorative, just as liberals use the N word to cast conservatives in the worst possible light.

It is interesting to me, if true, that the word Neocon has been used for as long as you say. I googled 'Neocon + 19th century'. The closest i could find, were some book reviews and commentaries whic apply the use of the term ex post facto to 18th and 19th century British and French colonialism, and to American actions against the likes of the Barbary Pirates. But I found no contemporaneous use of that term; have you a citation for its use?

If you are correct, then Irving (not William) Kristol, Norman Podhoretz, et. al. have been classified (or self -classified) with a designation which was erroneous.

Hope your Summer is going well--it seems so, viewing the activity about you in the music section. Good-o!

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Stu
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 10:45 AM

I was once in the Young Conservatives, about 25 years ago and I actually patted Thatcher on the back once; I was co-opted onto the committee (it was in a well-to-do commuter village) by the then Chairman, who is now a very respected political commentator and helped run the branch. In truth, although I thought I was a Tory at the time (my father is and was a true blue), it became obvious my heart wasn't in it, and here's why.

We had a succession of debates in between the drinking bouts, where we would invite people from opposing views to come and give their side of the story and engage in some robust discussion. I always really enjoyed these, and one day we had a chap come in from Shelter, an organisation that helps the homeless. He set his stall out early on, saying he was a Socialist and when we'd finished talking about housing (some of the member's parents had lots of money and very big houses - we all came from financially well-off backgrounds) he'd be happy to discuss anything with us. As the debate (which was heated but never nasty) wore on I realised this chap spoke my language - he was articulating what I thought in a way I never heard anyone before. That got me thinking.

Later in 1983, the year of the general election the last major political event before polling day was a big rally at Wembley Conference Centre. We were promised lots of celebs, rousing political speeches etc. On the coach on the way down to London we pulled over at Watford Gap services on the M1. That week, the people's march for jobs had made their way to parliament to protest the massive cuts Thatcher was inflicting on the various manufacturing industry in the North East. Several of the members from our bus went and plastered their coach with Young Conservative stickers and when the marchers came to protest they were treated to a tirade of abuse. I was sickened to the core - I almost got off the bus and went back North there and then. The disrespect shown to people trying to save their communities was nothing short of pathetic - I realised these privileged little oichs were utterly contemptuous of these people who were protesting peacefully, and I was ashamed to have been with them.

The rally went ahead, the usual sort of bollocks you get at any of these events regardless of political party and when Thatcher walked round I patted her on the back - I now wish I'd have twatted her round the head.

When I got back I was charged with liasing with the senior association's local branches, and part of that job was sitting on on committee meetings where strategy was formulated, campaigns planned and events organised. It became clear they were not interested in anything but their own little club. When a new member in his early 40's arrived from Chelmsford and suggested a disco they said there was no demand for "that sort of thing" and "people here prefer garden parties"; when I countered my mum and dad went to discos with their friends and they would be interested I was pretty much told to shut up.

I realised here were the people who ran the Tory party - the grass roots activists were generally sixty-something, well-off and suspicious of anything that would rock their little world. They were clueless and cared less about the plight of people who were struggling under the new economic realities of Thatcher's monetarist Britain. After several more events showing the workings of the party, resigned from the committee and left on political grounds (possibly a first for a Young Conservative).

This is why Cameron is popular in the short-term - an Eton toff will appeal to this demographic, but in the long run I think it spells trouble for him. There are plenty of old Thatcherites left in the party and these people are the ones running the party at grass routes level, and reform is not on their agenda. If the tories get back in, it'll be the early 1980's all over again and that is bad news.

I eventually found the political and philosophical creed which made the most sense to me: Marxism, and today I'm still finding my way through this most thoughtful and interesting of ideologies, which like socialism is a broad church with much to consider beyond the basic Tory desire to put the interests of oneself before all else in society.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 10:58 AM

Of course in England, Conservative is a political party.

There are some pretty decent Conservatives, as there are in all the parties - some nice people.

Trouble is, there are some total bumholes in all the political parties and fortune does seem to favour the complete bumhole.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 11:08 AM

I've always understood the defining principle for anything that could count as genuinely conservative would be that change should only be welcomed when it can be shown that it is not going to make things worse, and is likely to make things better. As such there is nothing intrinsically right-wing about the position.

Many people (and all parties) who call themselves "conservative", do not in fact appear to hold to that principle, but rather to one of welcoming changes which brings advantages for people who are relatively well-off, regardless of the impact they are likely to have on society as a whole.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 12:09 PM

Neo-conservatism is the latest reincarnation of fascism.

As for traditional conservatism, that is a philosophy with many good points, as is traditional liberalism.

Either conservatism or liberalism can turn quite sour, though, when taken to extremes.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 12:16 PM

On some issues I am very left-wing. On others very right-wing. On others very center-of-the-road. Something I am NOT and never will be is a member of ANY political party. When I am asked for my political affiliation I usually just tell the pollster "Marijuana Party--the ultimate in GREEN".

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 01:03 PM

Little Hawk, you make my case--liberals often use Neo-Conservatism as a pejoritive. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 01:06 PM

I'll *cough* to that, LH...

Other than that, I've allready stated many times that most folks who say they are conservative are clueless about what it means to be conservative and are just loyal partisan Republicans who go along with, and vigorously defend, whatever the Republicans tell them with no real regard to one's individual values or philosophies...

But that is the way the system works... Or in the case of the problems that the country faces today, doesn't...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 01:29 PM

From the dim recesses of my fading memory-- a poem

The Perfect Conservative
(Anon)

As I was sitting in a chair
I knew the bottom wasn't there
Nor back nor legs. But there I sat
Ignoring little things like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 01:42 PM

>>Little Hawk, you make my case--liberals often use Neo-Conservatism as a pejoritive. Thank you.

For one thing, people calling themselves Neocon have done some very bad things. Even if Pax Americana is a good thing in your eyes. To many of us it is the vending of America's soul for the illusion of peace and for empire. Even if it were to bring about all that Bill Kristol and Cheney and Wolfowitz and Feith promise. The cost is way too high.

Te Neocons are a very specific group doing nasty things. What would you have us do? Try to be politically correct and not offend them? Do I detect some liberalism in your point of view?

On the other hand "liberal" is a broad term with a grand history and some wonderful leaders as its paragon, including Eisenhower. Self identified "conservatives", not you that I remember, use that word as a pejorative pretty much every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 01:56 PM

"New Labour" is a pretty pejorative term too. Especially from looking at it from the left. Or from the centre for that matter.

Surely the reason why people use "Neo-Conservative" pejoratively is as a way of distinguishing them from conservative minded people, who distrust unnecessary and dangerous changes which threaten social cohesion - the kind of changes that Neo-Cons are associated with.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:12 PM

My last post disappeared.

In it I said that, yes, I use "Neoconservative" as a pejorative. I do not, however, use "conservative" as a pejorative.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:17 PM

John on the Sunset Coast has brought up an interesting point.

Is Neocon a pejorative or is it simply a name for something that some of us don't like? Is it a perjorative when it is an honest description?


In the interest of disclosure.
I have to admit that two weeks ago I called Andrea Mitchell a neocon. I didn't mean it as a pejorative. I meant it as a short hand for a group of values. I must say that it was an exaggeration. So really, I used "Neocon" the way that DougR uses "liberal" which was at the very least a tactical error, because I could have used the word "conservative" not offended anyone, made my point and been factually correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:18 PM

The unfortunate thing that has occurred is that many of us use 'politician' as a perjorative term. Rightfully so, but sad nevertheless.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Alice
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:24 PM

The term neo-conservatism in the US is explained in this wikipedia page.

Scroll down that page to "usage and general views" for the different ways neo-conservative term has been used since 1883 to 2008.

quote
"John McGowan, professor of humanities at the University of North Carolina, states, after an extensive review of neoconservative literature and theory, that neoconservatives are attempting to build an American empire, seen as successor to the British Empire, its aim being to perpetuate a Pax Americana. As imperialism is largely seen as unacceptable by the American public, neoconservatives do not articulate their ideas and goals in a frank manner in public discourse. McGowan states, 'Frank neoconservatives like Robert Kaplan and Niall Ferguson recognize that they are proposing imperialism as the alternative to liberal internationalism. Yet both Kaplan and Ferguson also understand that imperialism runs so counter to American's liberal tradition that it must... remain a foreign policy that dare not speak its name...'"

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: heric
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:43 PM

>>Surely the reason why people use "Neo-Conservative" pejoratively is as a way of distinguishing them from conservative minded people, who distrust unnecessary and dangerous changes which threaten social cohesion - the kind of changes that Neo-Cons are associated with. <<

That nails it down pretty well. I've said it before on the McCain thread and I'll say it again here: I do not understand why Straightalking McCain is not brave enough to expressly distance himself from this crowd. He has done it in deed but he won't do it in words. It is for that reason that he loses my vote and I am willing to take the longshot on Mr. Unknown. I am sure I am not alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:51 PM

Thank you, Alice for that lead..

From Wikipedia:
"In the early 1970s, democratic socialist Michael Harrington used the term in its modern meaning. He characterized neoconservatives as former leftists — whom he derided as "socialists for Nixon" — who had moved significantly to the right. These people tended to remain supporters of social democracy, but distinguished themselves by allying with the Nixon administration over foreign policy, especially by their support for the Vietnam War and opposition to the Soviet Union. They still supported the welfare state, but not necessarily in its contemporary form.

Irving Kristol remarked that a neoconservative is a "liberal mugged by reality," one who became more conservative after seeing the results of liberal policies. Kristol also claims three distinctive aspects of neoconservatism from previous forms of conservatism: a forward-looking approach drawn from their liberal heritage, rather than the reactionary and dour approach of previous conservatives; a meliorative outlook, proposing alternate reforms rather than simply attacking social liberal reforms; taking philosophical or ideological ideas very seriously.[32]"

These paragraphs largely comport with my understand of American Neoconservatism. I find little if any relationship to the way most liberalsm posting here have used the term. And I certainly don't see Geo. Bush, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove et. al. as subscribing to the philosophy embodied in those paragraphs.

I reiterate, most of you have been using the term Neoconservative in a generally pejorative, erroneous way to further your own agendas.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: heric
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:59 PM

Hey I AM invisible. I already discussed the same "lead." I reiterate, everyone, including progressives, liberals, traditional conservatives and libertarians, views that term unkindly. And the 1970 meaning of the term is not today's meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:00 PM

Didn't Neoconservatives invent the term themselves, which serves to distingish them from more traditional conservatives, whom they see as no more than a variety of liberal? (eg in the States, Eisenhower)

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:03 PM

Well, John, that's interesting. What I am opposed to is an aggressive imperial policy aimed at building a world empire, and one that sanctions wars of choice and various types of hostile takeovers. I would be opposed to it regardless of what nation or group was doing it. So what do you call that sort of a policy?

I am also opposed to excessive militarism and moves in the direction of establishing a police state. Again, what do you call that sort of policy?

I wouldn't call it "conservative", that's for sure. Neither would I call it "liberal". My impression is that Bush, Cheney, Rove, et al have been in general pursuing the sort of imperial policies I described above. They are generally referred to as being "neo-conservatives", but perhaps it is a misnomer?

What about the people in the PNAC? (Project for a New American Century)

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Alice
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:05 PM

John, you have to read farther than the quote of Michael Harrington to see what neo-conservatism was in the 1990's and then post Sept 11.
Just that reference to what it was in the 70's is not the accurate picture of what neo-conservatism is now.

Neo-conservatives post Sept 11 urged the "pre-emptive" attack on Saddam and Iraq. It is currently the Dick Cheney form of neo-conservatism that we see in America.

You have to read to the end of the page, which is why I wrote, scroll to: "usage and general views" for the different ways neo-conservative term has been used since 1883 to 2008.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:07 PM

Agenda?

People have agendas? Do you have an agenda? I simply thought that you were opinionated. What is your agenda?

I use the worn Neocon because I am aware of this conspiracy PNAC.
Most of the world call the PNAC's adherents and founders Neocon's. But if you don't want to that's up to you. But it makes communication more difficult. Why don't you just use the word as most everybody else does?

I don't have an agenda. I'm just talking on the Internet. I like the give and take and find that when I am challenging and provocative, I learn things.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:11 PM

John you use the Wikipedia definition for Neocon. Taking that as being definitive, here is their definition for PNAC.

The Project for the New American Century (PNAC) was an American neoconservative think tank based in Washington, D.C., co-founded in early 1997 as "a non-profit educational organization" by William Kristol and Robert Kagan.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM

Self identified neoconservatives

Elliott Abrams        Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for Democracy, Human Rights, and International Operations (2001–2002), Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for Near East and North African Affairs (2002–2005), Deputy Assistant to the President and Deputy National Security Advisor for Global Democracy Strategy (2005-) (all within the National Security Council)

Richard Armitage        Deputy Secretary of State (2001-2005)

John R. Bolton        Under-Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security Affairs (2001-2005), U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations (2005-2006)

Dick Cheney        Vice President (2001-)

Eliot A. Cohen        Member of the Defense Policy Advisory Board (2007-)[82]

Seth Cropsey        Director of the International Broadcasting Bureau (12/2002-12/2004)

Paula Dobriansky        Under-Secretary of State for Global Affairs (2001-2007)

Francis Fukuyama        Member of the The President's Council on Bioethics (2001-2005)

Zalmay Khalilzad        U.S. Ambassador to Afghanistan (11/2003 - 6/2005), U.S. Ambassador to Iraq (6/2005 - 3/2007) U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations (2007-)

I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby        Chief of Staff for the Vice President (2001-2005)

Richard Perle        Chairman of the Board, Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee (2001-2003)

Peter W. Rodman        Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security (2001-2007)

Donald Rumsfeld        Secretary of Defense (2001-2006)

Randy Scheunemann        Member of the U.S. Committee on NATO, Project on Transitional Democracies, International Republican Institute

Paul Wolfowitz        Deputy Secretary of Defense (2001-2005)

Dov S. Zakheim        Department of Defense Comptroller (2001-2004)

Robert B. Zoellick        Office of the United States Trade Representative (2001-2005), Deputy Secretary of State (2005-2006)

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:16 PM

I posted a link to that document about four years ago. It is very scary reading, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:26 PM

Alice, I purposefully did not mention the earlier discussion of Neoconservatism because it has nothing to do with the American neoconservatism of the Harrington/Kristol definition (I also didn't note that notwithstanding Wiki, I had always thought the term originated with IK). I did address the Cheney/Bush thing.

The fact that some neoconservatives urged or supported a preemptive strike, does not make that a neoconservative tenet. My wife, who is a pretty liberal Democrat (you'll have to take my word for that) also supported the Iraq invasion (until, at least, it went south), but that doesn't make the invasion a liberal policy.
                     
                      -----------------
Heric, if you came to that conclusion before I, I salute you for your sagacity. You are correct the definition now used has sweet nothing in common with the 1970 term.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:34 PM

So John, are you saying that you use the 1970 term and I use the 1997 to now term?

That seems about right to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:38 PM

'There's glory for you!'

`I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.

`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- that's all.'

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. `They've a temper, some of them -- particularly verbs: they're the proudest -- adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs -- however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!'

`Would you tell me please,' said Alice, `what that means?'

`Now you talk like a reasonable child,' said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. `I meant by "impenetrability" that we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you'd mention what you mean to do next.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: heric
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:51 PM

Believe it or not, I have that little excerpt hanging in a small frame.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:25 PM

Heric

I choose to believe you.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: heric
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:27 PM

Okay then, I'll vote for Obama for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: heric
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:35 PM

So let's move along to the next discussion, about seal puppies.   ;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:53 PM

>>>So let's move along to the next discussion, about seal puppies.   ;~)

For some reason Heric, those discussion only seem to coincide with the fundraising drives of "animal rights groups" in the spring.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 05:30 PM

This is an interesting thread and I am pleased to see that defining what it means to be a conservative, from the horses mouth as it were, is as hard as defining what it means to be a liberal.

I've had a good hunt for some Tory bashing but couldn't find any so I'll ignore Dons cynical egotism and pay attention to the conservatives who have bothered to read. It's up to you to join in if you want. If you don't thats fine - interesting how you posted at such length to explain why you wouldn't be posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Naemanson
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:44 AM

I used to pay attention to the political run around and kept abreast of all the latest arguments. Then I realized that there is no end to it. One party wants something one year and then screams when the other party achieves it in the next. Nobody has any attention span longer than the next election and none are truly interested in doing any good, just in winning the next contest.

As such there is nothing positive that can come out of it. They go round and round and round until everyone falls off the merry-go-round. Whenever I listen to the news I just get pissed off at how often things repeat. I once went two years ignoring the news, just catching little snippets here and there by mistake. When I finally had to listen to another newscast I realized it was almost exactly the same news I'd heard two years previously.

Let me give you the headlines for 2012. First up - Trouble in the Middle East. Israel and ____ are fighting again. Afghanistan and Iraq are once more run by ultra conservative Muslim extremists. Then we have the election. The latest white boy from the Republican party is running against whichever woman or black person manages to get the votes. When the votes are counted the Republicans win because they have once more frightened the nation at the prospect of having one of "them" in the white house. Plus Nader stole a lot of voters. Let's see, oh yes, the infrastructure of our "great" nation continues to crumble with repairs being made only after more people get crushed or drowned. Drilling for oil is proceeding in all areas including wildlife sanctuaries. Species are going extinct at an alarming rate. ExonMobile and Shell are racing to pump the last ounce out of the ground so they can sell it to Japan and China. In this country people are complaining that they cannot afford to get to work. The Government once more undertakes a study to evaluate the cost of providing mass transit. And once more it proves impossible.

Anyone want to keep track of these in the next election year?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:59 AM

Sounds like you're starting to catch on... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 05:03 AM

Nope.

By 2012 either McCain has balanced the budget and dropped the price of gas to thirty cents a gallon by drilling in SeaWorld. Or Obama has switched us all to electric scooters powered by moonbeams and unicorn farts. And the only thing standing in the way of these things is White, Catholic voters in the rustbelt. At least that's the impression I get watching MSNBC.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:19 AM

Conservative or (neo)conservative... Don't much matter 'cause both have run their course in American politics... Even a John McCain victory can't change that...

The conservatives have long held the belief that the Governemnt is evil and the free market is all that is wholesome and good... Problem is that this little 30 year experiement hasn't worked for the good of the country...

Yes, it has been very good for the upper 10% but the lower 90% have had to carry not only a heavier tax burden but also the risk of the upper 10%...

I think Katrina woke everyone up to the fact that the conservatives, while holding power and fully responsible for the actions/inactionms of the government, have not made US safer...

And "deregulation", once the darling of the conservative movement has come hauntingly back to bite US...

Yeah, the conservatives tried to "starve the beast" but didn't realize that "the beast" is waht make US a civilized and compassionate nation and it is now apparent that people don't want the beast starved but corrected so that "the beast" will better protect and serve the people...

So, regardless of the outcome of the upcoming election, you can put a fork in this phase of American history because it is done...

(Well, Boberdz, then why do you think that McCain might win in November if the conservative movement is DOA???)

Simple... A lot of folks will not vote for a black person... Period...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:59 AM

Bobert - I agree with everything you say above, but there were conservatives that go back beyond the 30 year mark. I think that's the point where they went off in a direction that was unsustainable.

                   Eisenhower considered himself to be conservative, but he, a five-star general, was the first one to warn the American public about the Military-Industrial-Complex.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:05 AM

Being Conservative is not of and by itself a bad thing. Nor is being Liberal. Both types of parties (Rep/Dem in the US and Cons/Libs in Canada) have done stuff their respective party members should be and sometimes are ashamed of. Labels help ya find which cans have beans. Opening the cans and tasting the beans let ya know if they're any good.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:19 AM

We are indeed bombarded with the same bad news all the time.

When we are young we are new to the world and we feel a strong impulse to do something to change things.

We don't really know where to start so we rant at the older generation who seem blithely uninterested and whose understanding smiles are nothing short of frustrating.

As we get older we see the same cycles repeating and our optimism in the possibility of change wanes and in many people dies.

The age at which this happens seems to be getting younger and younger to the point that there are 14 year olds out there with all the fatalistic resignation of 70 year olds.

We think to ourselves - hey what the hell - nothing changes, I may as well try to make the journey as painless for me and my kids as possible.

I may as well just accept that the world is full of bad people, poverty, war etc and take the realistic approach which is to ensure that if the world is going to hell that a least I've got a comfortable safe seat with a minibar where I can be away from all the sad/bad experiences.

I feel the lure to live that way drawing me in like a vortex.

Build me a substitute womb in which to dwell.

Let me be numb and blind to the plight of the world cos there's not much I can do about it.

The problem is that being human I have a nerve in the pit of my stomach that is ill from the pain of humankind.

I'm not a martyr - it's natural.

It's also an intelligent survival instinct as I am informed enough to know that human kind cannot live in isolation, but need each other to survive. And bein so informed I can't ignore it - though I would love to.

That's why I'm a sucker for a guy like Obama.

He takes the last glimmer of a spark that will not die and breathes life into it.

Naive maybe, but life is better when there is hope.

I am a happier person when I'm honest and when I believe in the possibility of change.

Now here's a question to put the cat among the pigeons ...

Is that line the line that seperates cons and libs?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:43 AM

I'm kinda interested in why people want to 'belong' to political parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:48 AM

Because people like david cameron, Gordon Brown, George Bush are models of decency and humanity and we want to model ourselves on them

al

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 10:45 AM

"Republicans

Republicans approve of the American farmer,
but they are willing to help him go broke.
They stand four-square for the American home--
but not for housing. They are strong for labor--
but they are stronger for restricting labor's
rights. They favor minimum wage--the smaller the
minimum wage the better. They endorse educational
opportunity for all--but they won't spend
money for teachers or for schools. They think
modern medical care and hospitals are fine--
for people who can afford them. They consider
electrical power a great blessing--but only when
the private power companies get their rake-off.
They think American standard of living is a fine
thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the
people. And they admire of Government of the
United States so much that they would like to
buy it."

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 10:45 AM

Sorry. That quotation was from Harry S Truman.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM

"I'm kinda interested in why people want to 'belong' to political parties."

I think if you want something done, you need to accept that on your own you are effectively powerless.

So you need to look for an organization that reperesents your interests the best and is most likely to be able to get something done about them.

For most people in the UK and the USA that means voting for one of two main political parties.

For some it means joining one or other of them to try and influence the outcome of elections to a greater extent than a single vote allows by campaigning.

For less, it means joining and trying to influence the party of their choice to be more representative of thier views.

For a very few, it means seeking to lead the party of their choice and using the party to become elected into positions of political power.

I know what I think, and you might sometimes have the patience to read about it, and on occasion even care. ;-)

But my voice is a drop in the ocean of ones and zero's that constitutes our virtual global consciousness and the chances of me being the social butterfly who created the political storm are infinitesmally small.

If I had the motivation I would join a party, but for now I content myself with using my vote as intelligently as I can.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 01:31 PM

In the UK third and fourth parties are viable and do get a voice in government.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 01:44 PM

I think that political parties are the problem, not the solution, and I will never belong to one.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 01:49 PM

I think a greater diversity of views would be more fairly represented if the first past the post electoral system were scrapped and replaced by PR.

But till then, I feel that the other parties, who should have more of a voice when their overall support base is taken into account, will continue to sit in the margins while the two big parties continue to slug it out.

And yes I should qualify my point by making it specific to England as opposed to the UK in general.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 01:54 PM

>> replaced by PR.

Isn't that what causes the gridlock in Italy?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 02:20 PM

People lived for millenia without political parties. In some cases they managed to have fully democratic systems without any political parties, and that is what I'm recommending. In my opinion, political parties are the worst thing that ever happened to democracy and they are destroying it.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 02:24 PM

LH

There's never been democracy without those with common interests or enemies banding together. Political parties are just cliques with names.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 02:27 PM

Whether there are formal parties or not, under pretty well any system there will be the Ins and the Outs.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: pdq
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 02:30 PM

"...there will be the Ins and the Outs."

Are we talking politcal parties here or belly buttons?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM

"Isn't that what causes the gridlock in Italy?"

No - that would be corruption.

Otherwise the same would be true in Ireland, Germany, New Zealand ...

... Austria, Belgium, Greece, Denmark, Israel, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland ...

... etc etc etc etc ...

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:08 PM

My Grandad used to go the Conservative club to play dominoes.

I see the 'game of dominoes' motive has not been touched on by anyone else

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:10 PM

Hmmm ...

The domino effect eh?

The plot thickens!

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:21 PM

They all have corruption Lox. But I think that PR has been a larger cause of gridlock and all the collapsing governments in Italy.

Canada has the same system as Britain. Its not perfect. But a lot of good ideas get introduced by fringe parties and then incorporated into main party platforms as the ideas become popular. Often the main parties do this to keep the fringe parties from gaining ground. Another way fringe parties gain influence is in a minority government.

On the other hand, in the words of Van the Man!

Dont want to discuss it
I think its time for a change
You may get disgusted
And think Im strange
In that case Ill go underground
Get some heavy rest
Never have to worry
About what is worst and what is best

Oh oh domino
Roll me over romeo
There you go
Lord have mercy
I said oh oh domino
Roll me over romeo
There you go
Say it again
I said oh oh domino
I said oh oh domino

Theres no need for argument
Theres no argument at all
And if you never hear from him
That just means he didnt call
Or vice versa
That depends on where ever youre at
And if you never hear from me
That just means I would rather not

I said oh oh domino
Roll me over romeo
There you go
Lord have mercy
I said oh oh domino
Roll me over romeo
There you go
Say it again
Oh oh domino
I said oh oh domino.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:22 PM

A true conservative would not allow those in the White House to increase the National Debt.
A true conservative would (like Eisenhower) not allow the Military Industrial Complex to
rob taxpayers.
A true conservative would question the value of foreign incursions by pre-emptive means.
A true conservative would allow for small businesses not to be buried by behemoth corporations (in a so-called "free market").
A true conservative would embrace fiscal responsibility in government.
A true conservative would protect individual freedoms by not allowing the Telecomms
to spy on American citizens.
A true conservative would embrace education to make responsible citizens.


Hence: There are no true conservatives today include Insane McCain, Bushites or the
Neo-cons.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:35 PM

Thanks, Frank. I was wondering who would reclaim the language as it was supposed to be used. I am sick to death of these phonies trying to paint us with cliche'd politics and revisionist language. As always, your wisdom and the miles you have travelled come shining through.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:50 PM

It has always struck me as curious that those who claim Conservative ground on the basis of "individual responsibility for one's acts" were so ready to pursue the invasion of iraq as a consequence of 9-11, instead of targeting those actually responsible.

Is it just me? Or is that some kind of logical inversion?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:52 PM

Selective Conservatism, Amos, Selective Conservatism.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:58 PM

You mean I should select it? Or that it is being selectively applied?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 04:03 PM

I have a problem with conflating fiscal conservatism with issue like abortion. I don't think combining the two issues helps the resolution of either.

On the other hand in principal I am against abortion but I think that it is the individual's decision.

My tax money and how it is pissed away is certainly my business.

I am a strange kind of conservative for this country.
I like spending on infrastructure and many kinds of social spending because they are investments in the community and the tax money comes back as taxes through the multiplier effect and economic stimulus.

I am not in favor of subsidies and tax breaks to large international corporations or to people who own a lot of capital because that money is often taken out of our economy or invested in ways that create Real Estate or market bubbles.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 04:05 PM

I made up the term in another thread Amos. It means people who are ideologically conservative only when it suits them.


As far as I can see, its the fastest growing political affiliation in the country. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 05:29 PM

Sure thing! Why, I'm a member of that group myself!! For example, I get very conservative when W starts wanting to inject narrow-minded moral strictures into the Constitution of the United States, start wars of pre-emption, and undermine the Bill of Rights. Positively anal!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 05:38 PM

I get pretty upset when I see him spend money. That medicare prescription boondoggle was astounding.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:50 PM

"Cafeteria Conservatives"?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:54 PM

LOL good one!

You can't call them "A la Carte." They hate the French!

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 02:53 PM

"I've had a good hunt for some Tory bashing but couldn't find any"

You aren't looking very hard. I copy pasted the first one in my post that you were responding to.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 03:02 PM

Don!

That was my post you copy pasted!

It certainly was not aimed at Tories!

It was aimed at Rush Limbaugh's ditto heads and their kind in this country.

I actually like Tories.

Sorry for the confusion. I'll try to be more specific this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 03:06 PM

sorry...


...next time.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 03:34 PM

There's one thing I've never understood. In my personal life, if I'm careful not to spend more money than I take in, that's being "conservative" with my money. And I think I'm very conservative that way - the last time I took out a loan other than a mortgage, was 1978. I pay all my bills on time, and I pay off my credit cards in full every month. I have a good amount of money in savings, and I'm able to give generously to worthy causes. That's what I think being "conservative" should be - and I think that kind of conservatism is a virtue.

These American "neoconservatives" are a different bunch, though. They always seem to want to cut income (taxes) and increase spending and borrowing. The say they want to decrease spending, but they never seem to get around to any cuts other than cutting taxes for rich people and cutting benefits for poor people. So, we end up with a huge chunk of our taxes going to pay interest on loans. Saving money for emergencies or worthy causes, isn't on their agenda at all.

I don't get it. Who's "conservative" and who's "liberal" in this equation? In my lifetime, the only Republican Presidents who were fiscal conservatives were Dwight Eisenhower and Gerald Ford (and George H.W. Bush wasn't half bad, either). If the Republicans had more honest conservatives like Eisenhower and Ford, and fewer cowboy conservatives like Reagan and W., I might become a Republican myself.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: heric
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 03:56 PM

My dad just got his economic stimulus payment -- in Canada! Bless you neocons. These checks are going all over the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 03:59 PM

Congrats to your Dad. But that sort of misses the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 01:15 PM

Conservatives are fiscally so. They don't like waste in money such as the billion dollars
the US Government lost in Iraq that we taxpayers paid for.

Conservatives don't like pork such as "bridges to nowhere" in Alaska.
Conservatives believe in paying their bills when they come due and not going into
debt like the US is doing under Bush.
Conservatives want to conserve energy, not squander it.
Conservatives want freedom from becoming spied upon by government agencies.
Conservatives want larger corporations to pay their fair share of taxes and not put
smaller businesses into bankruptcy.

Remember that the root of the word is "conserve" not squander as Bush and his criminal
buddies have been doing. I think a legitimate point can be made for this true conservatism.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: DougR
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:13 PM

Conservative mudcatters are NOT afraid of this thread, JTS. I think many of us here know that there is no point to posting. If Lox wants to know the conservative view, he/she would be far better off reading "Conscience of A Conservative" ghost written for Barry Goldwater by Brent Bozell, Jr. than anything he/she would find posted on the Mudcat.

Conservative mudcatters are not going to convert the liberals on this site to our philosophy, just as they are not going to convert conservatives to their view.

It's just a waste of time.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:31 PM

JTS it's me that should apologise for not being aware by now that you are on the other side of the pond.

My mistake mate.

Anyone who says he likes Tories is OK with me. This side of the pond these days even Tories don't admit to THAT, unless they are stubborn old gits like me. It's just not worth the abuse you get.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 01:52 AM

Doug,

From what I have read about Goldwater, he would not approve of GW Bush or the most recent Republican Congress. You have seemed to have any problem sticking up for either of them. I'd have to say that if you were to tell us where you differ with Bush, McCain and those folks who gave us that prescription drug plan, which certainly had Goldwater spinning in his grave. I'd be interested.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:34 PM

The late Paul Goodman - New York poet, anarchist and thinker - used to describe his politics as "Neolithic Conservatism", and I think that label fits my politics as well. These modern inventions like governments and armies and money are a real pain, never to be trusted

Paul Goodman deserves a lot more attention than he gets. He always did.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:45 PM

"The conditions of American society do not encourage manly responsibility and moral courage in men, and we simply do not know how to use the tenderness and motherliness of women. The present disposition of the radical young is to treat males and females alike: in my observation, this means that the women become mere camp-followers, the opposite of the suburban situation in which they are tyrannical dolls. I do not know the answer."

~ Like a Conquered Province, 1965, chapter 2: "Counter-Forces for a Decent Society"

"It is by losing ourselves in inquiry, creation and craft that we become something. Civilization is a continual gift of spirit: inventions, discoveries, insight, art. We are citizens, as Socrates would have said, and we have it available as our own. "

Goodman (source not noted)


McGrath, thank you for reminding me of Goodman. I had clean forget in my long journey into Bobohood what a clear and poignant voice he had.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:52 PM

Amos

The first one is satire?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: DougR
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:56 PM

There is an awful lot of talk about neo-conservatism. What do you liberals believe is an appropriate "handle" for neo-liberals?

JTS:Since Barry Goldwater is dead, I really don't believe anyone can hazard an accurate guess of what he might think of modern conservatism.

William F. Buckley, in his recent book about Barry Goldwater's 1964 campaign and the months leading up to it quoted a noted conservative (wish I could remember who it was) as saying, "Any person age 21 who is not a liberal has no heart. Any person age 41 who is not a conservative has no brain." Sounds good to me.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 10:52 PM

Oh I think we can hazard a guess.

We can compare the values he talked about to what those people have done.

Doug,

You told me that Goldwater's book described your conservative philosophy. You should know what he would think about Bush and his boondoggles. That you don't shows that you are not as conservative as you claim to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 07:44 AM

I think that quote was probably Churchill - describing his own political record of switching party allegiance.

I don't think it's actually all that true, if those words are used as political labels. And there are plenty of examples of it working the other way round.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:33 PM

McGrath,

Its doubtful that he would have applied it to modern American Conservatism's definition of the words.

It would be saying that
When you are young you should appoint "activists judges who want to vacuum out babies heads and when you are old you should want to give tax breaks to people who would turn up their noses if you walked into their country clubs.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Amos
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:07 PM

JtS:

No, not exactly, but still in the anteumbra of chivalry and Victorian regard. I think there is something to be said for the difference in nurturing power between men and women, just as there is somethign to be said for the use of larger muscles in men.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:17 PM

From what I remember of 1965 that was pretty spot about how the way women tended to be seen in "Movement circles", and see themselves even - "the women become mere camp-followers."

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 06:33 PM

A neo-liberal, Doug? ;-) Well, here's what I envision: One of those really pestiferous individuals who wears Birkenstocks and only natural weave clothing, drinks nothing but organic soya smoothies, grows wheat grass in their kitchen, is aggressively pushy about gay rights, women's issues, Native American issues, Anti-semitism issues, any and all racism issues, and affirmative action-type stuff...and just WON'T shut up about it...and lets you know by their whole contemptuous attitude to you that they are sooooo more righteous and in the know about all that kind of stuff than you are that they really can't be bothered even dealing with you at all, because you'd be better off dead anyway.

If male, the person is skinny and artistic, has a well-trimmed Van Dyke beard and glasses, speaks with a slight lisp, drinks lattes at Starbucks, and is really into modern art and jazz in a big way. He also NEVER stops talking about himself and gossiping savagely about all the other people he knows, who are clearly hopeless idiots. Most of them are neo-liberals quite similar to him, but they're still idiots.

If female, the person has a brushcut (or else she has really curly blond or brown hair in an afro) and she has round wire-rim glasses and wears clothes that look like something a trucker would wear...aside from the sandals. If she's hardcore, it's not sandals, it's old work boots or Doc Martins. She doesn't talk to people like YOU or ME at all because she doesn't even regard us as a form of life...nor does she regard most men as a form of life, in fact. She only votes for the Green Party and she may even be a charter member of Greenpeace. She is organizing a "Take Back The Night" parade for next week. Chances are about 50/50 that she is Jewish. She can spot a single molecule of antisemitism or male chauvinism in an entire acre of freshly mown grass. She makes her own bread, and lots of it. She owns three Burmese cats and lives in an apartment with a skylight.

Am I on the right track here?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 06:40 PM

Am I talking about the right quote? If you are a Conservative when you are young you have no heart.....?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 06:46 PM

There aren't any "Neo-Liberals" LH. DougR has been smoking Ann Coulter's Conservative crack.

The people you describe call themselves "progressives" now I think.

That Canadian kid with the blog calls them "white people." Stuff White people like.

I call the people you describe "Most Mudcatters" ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 08:27 PM

Yeah, Jack. ;-) I know.

"Progressives" for sure. But I'm talkin' about the real hardcore ones...

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: John Hardly
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 09:52 PM

In an interesting wrinkle, the very things that make me conservative are making me look to the Democrat Party as a possible way to voice my conservative views (particularly if Obama has the good sense to pick Evan Bayh as his running mate). The Republican Party has nearly completely shown an unwillingness to enact conservative policies and plans. The Democrats just might be forced by history and timing to become the actual conservatives. Life's funny that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: pdq
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 10:07 PM

Stange how that works, ain't it John Hardly?

Democrat Bill Clinton enacted NAFTA, welfare reform and other "conservative" legislation because he could. The Republicans would have been excoriated by the mews media for proposing the exact same things.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 10:24 PM

Yeah, it's hilarious, ain't it, pdq? ;-) Democrats can get away with enacting conservative fiscal legislation, because their partisan supporters and the media don't scream in protest when they do it.

Likewise, Republicans can get away with doing foreign policy things that the Democrats aren't allowed to do by the public and the media.

Example: Nixon could get away with opening friendly relations with Red China. No Democratic president could have done it...he'd have been accused of being "soft on Communism" and of "abandoning our allies in Taiwan".

It works exactly the same way on either side of the divide, pdq, only in the opposite fashion...mirror image...and I'll tell you why it works that way. It's designed to.

Your society is run by an elite oligarchy. That oligarchy controls your two major parties by controlling their funding. It uses them both to fool you into thinking you have a real choice when you go to the voting booth. It makes you think you still have a functioning democracy, which you do not. If the one party cannot slip some dirty piece of work by you or some radical new policy by you, then the other party can. So they switch places at strategic intervals when the oligarchy wants to push a change in policy...and the dirty work goes forward.

That's the name of the game. The controllers win. You lose. The Democratic and Republican parties are merely two phony football teams who play the game out on the field to keep you all mesmerized and entertained. The oligarchy owns the league, owns the stadium, and sells the tickets. The oligarchy makes the profit.

Now the two teams...they both want to win like hell, of course. Why? Well, winning the phony football game provides perks and glory to the winners. They get to party and live high for the next four years while the other team plans for the next playoff.

You will not get loose from it until you all see how badly you've been had by your corrupt partisan $ySStem...and you dump it once and for all.

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: pdq
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 10:32 PM

Well, Liberal Squawk, I think I agree with you on that post.

Not sure because I have a short attention span and nod-off during long posts, but I think you are correct.

At least let's declare a truce, OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 10:42 PM

You betcha, pdq! (grin) A truce it is.

Now, what the heck are we gonna do about the danged situation? (regarding those two parties, I mean)

Subject: RE: BS: Reasons for being a Conservative
From: pdq
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 10:53 PM

"...heck are we gonna do about the danged situation?"

May I sugest beer (in moderation, of course).