BS: War in Georgia (2008)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 11:39 AM

Where do the 2 presidential candidates stand on this issue ??

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:12 PM

"The USSR set the boundaries of both Georgia and Ukraine." ~ Teribus

Well, I wasn't sure until I read that post, but now I would say that Russia should go home and let Georgia make peace with its various ethnic groups. Russia wants to be able to threaten the very important oil pipe line and it is also unhappy at the prospect of Georgia joining NATO. Attacking a NATO member has more consequences. George W. Bush seems to be championing the move for membership. The only leader who is quoted as sayng "Russian troops must leave immediately" seems to be Dick Cheney while most others put a wet finger in the air.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:30 PM

McCain calls for diplomatic effort with Russia

Monday, August 11, 2008 3:42:51 PM
By CHARLES BABINGTON

Republican presidential candidate John McCain on Monday called for a multi-pronged diplomatic effort to force Russia to withdraw from Georgia, saying Moscow's actions could have long-term implications for its relations with the rest of the world.

Speaking to reporters in Pennsylvania, McCain said Russia appears intent on toppling the Georgian government rather than simply restoring the status quo in the pro-Moscow province of South Ossetia, which Georgia is trying to keep from breaking away.

"NATO's North Atlantic Council should convene in emergency session to demand a ceasefire and begin discussions on both the deployment of an Other international peacekeeping force to South Ossetia and the implications for NATO's future relationship with Russia," McCain said. He also urged NATO to reconsider its decision to withhold a "membership action plan" for Georgia, saying it "might have been viewed as a green light by Russia for its attacks on Georgia."

McCain said Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice should go to Europe "to establish a common Euro-Atlantic position aimed at ending the war and supporting the independence of Georgia."

He said the United States "should coordinate with our partners in Germany, France and Britain, to seek an emergency meeting of the G-7 foreign ministers to discuss the current crisis."

"Our united purpose should be to persuade the Russian government to cease its attacks, withdraw its troops and enter into negotiations with Georgia," McCain said. "We must remind Russia's leaders that the benefits they enjoy from being part of the civilized world require their respect for the values, stability and peace of that world."

He declined to take questions from reporters.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:34 PM

'"We must remind Russia's leaders that the benefits they enjoy from being part of the civilized world require their respect for the values, stability and peace of that world."'

Wouldn't hurt for him to sat that to Bush, also.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:38 PM

Thanks BB ... now, now what is Obama saying.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:45 PM

McCain and the US media are using weasel wording to try to frame the issue in a way that will serve their agenda (oil). The status quo in South Ossetia is that it broke away successfully in 1992 and has been operating autonomously ever since. Georgia is the one that is trying to upset the status quo and force South Ossetia to be a part of Georgia again.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM

I'm not surprised that the Russians are perturbed about Georgia wanting to join NATO.

How would the USA feel if Quebec left Canada, let's say, declared independence and stated its desire to join a re-established Warsaw Pact, allying itself with Russia?

Or what if Mexico did that? What then? What would the USA say about that?

Georgia borders on Russia. Don't forget that. Now put yourself in Russian shoes and imagine their strategic concerns.

They are playing normal great power politics.

The Georgians are playing normal small power politics and doing the standard thing when an enclave (large or small) decides to leave the nation and declare its independence. They're saying "You can't go, and we will happily kill you by the thousands to prevent you from doing so."

That's what the Serbs said to Kosovo, isn't it? That's what a central government usually says to separatists.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM

Obama vs. McCain on Russia vs. Georgia
Candidates Speak Out on Growing International Crisis
By JOHN HENDREN
Aug. 10, 2008
For Russia and Georgia, the conflict in South Ossetia is now a long-simmering war.

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., left, and Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz.
(ABC News Photo Illustration)For Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., and Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., it is the first chance for the presidential candidates to demonstrate their response to an international crisis.

McCain has called Russia's Vladimir Putin many things, few of them good. He's called Putin "a totalitarian dictator" and famously said he looked into his eyes and saw three letters "K, G and B," a reference to Putin's former employer, the Soviet spy agency. And when hostilities erupted along the Georgia-Russia border, McCain was characteristically bold and quick to act.

He spoke by phone to Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili and White House National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley, then quickly rearranged his schedule to make his statement on the crisis his first event of the day. And he didn't mince words.

"Russia should immediately and unconditionally cease its military operations and withdraw all forces from sovereign Georgian territory," he said in a morning statement.

Obama also condemned the Russian invasion. But he cast a wider net for advice -- including Hadley, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, and his foreign policy advisors. When he spoke, he was characteristically circumspect.

"I think it is important at this point for all sides to show restraint and to stop this armed conflict," Obama said. The candidates' responses reveal a stark difference in governing style, and both seem carefully calibrated to appeal to American voters.


"John McCain is going to be saying, 'I know what I am talking about foreign policy, and I'm tough enough to lead," said Norman Ornstein, a political analyst with the American Enterprise Institute. "Barack Obama is going to be saying, 'I know what I am talking about in foreign policy, and I'm nuanced enough that I am not going shooting from the hip the way John McCain does."

The bitter battle over who's performed best has already begun. A McCain aide calls Obama "bizarrely in sync with Moscow." Obama's campaign suggested McCain had a conflict of interest because his foreign policy advisor, Randy Scheunemann, had lobbied for Georgia.


Speaking out carries other risks.

"They must be very cautious in being used by a party in this very explosive situation," said Stephen Hess of the Brookings Institution. "The initial McCain statement seemed very overheated, as not one of extreme caution."


Nevertheless, McCain and Obama, alike, seem to be betting their response to the crisis will help them most in November.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:51 PM

Obama's the only one who is calling for both sides to stop. Everyone else seems to think the government of Georgia should be allowed (with the help of the US), to massacre civilians in South Ossetia unhindered. Perhaps it's ethnic cleansing of the South Ossetians that Georgia (and the US) has in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:02 PM

The primary issue here is not oil, it is power. Russia does not want it's greatest rival right on it's doorstep. Georgia, confident that they have USA backing, decided to reassert it's territorial claims when they thought the world would be busy. Russia seized on the chance to teach Georgia a lesson, namely- that the West can't garauntee their safety. Not only Georgia, but the Ukraine too.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:05 PM

"This weekend's fighting was provoked by Russian-advised South Ossetian separatists; Georgia foolishly responded to the provocation; and Russia was ready to roll in with a large armored force. Does Russia now want to advance further into Georgia? Or does it want to keep Georgia's democracy in a perpetual state of tension? Neither is acceptable, and the West should be formulating policies for either possibility.


In the longer term, the West will have to decide whether to continue its effort to soothe and placate Mr. Putin, as if he were a petulant child who could be bought off with candy and words of praise, or whether to rise to the geopolitical challenge his regime poses. Separate European nations (especially Germany) have thought that they could save themselves by cutting separate deals with Russia for oil and gas. They have tried to avert their eyes as Russia cut oil supplies to show its displeasure with European Union members such as the Czech Republic or Lithuania. Will they now unite to strengthen their position?

Meanwhile, as nations on Russia's periphery such as Georgia and Ukraine have turned west for help in safeguarding their independence, the West has responded ambivalently, offering sympathy but often little else. Russia's theory no doubt is that its aggression in Georgia will scare the West further away. Will that theory, too, harden into ugly truth, or will the West understand that it cannot buy peace by tendering the sovereignty of vulnerable nations? "

from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/10/AR2008081001840.html

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:06 PM

That sounds dead right to me, Volgadon. As you say, it's about power. It is also about regional spheres of influence.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: kendall
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:12 PM

What ever happened to minding your own business? We haven't tried that lately.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:15 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/10/AR2008081001870.html

Exactly what happened in South Ossetia last week is unclear. Each side will argue its own version. But we know, without doubt, that Georgia was responding to repeated provocative attacks by South Ossetian separatists controlled and funded by Moscow. This is a not a war Georgia wanted; it believed that it was slowly gaining ground in South Ossetia through a strategy of soft power.

Whatever mistakes Tbilisi has made, they cannot justify Russia's actions. Moscow has invaded a neighbor, an illegal act of aggression that violates the U.N. Charter and fundamental principles of cooperation and security in Europe. Beginning a well-planned war (including cyber-warfare) as the Olympics were opening violates the ancient tradition of a truce to conflict during the Games. And Russia's willingness to create a war zone 25 miles from the Black Sea city of Sochi, where it is to host the Winter Games in 2014, hardly demonstrates its commitment to Olympic ideals. In contrast, Moscow's timing suggests that Putin seeks to overthrow Saakashvili well ahead of our elections, and thus avoid beginning relations with the next president on an overtly confrontational note.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:21 PM

Latvia, Lithuania an Estonia border Russia. Aren't they in NATO? Should they be worried?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:28 PM

"Everyone else seems to think the government of Georgia should be allowed (with the help of the US), to massacre civilians in South Ossetia unhindered." ~ CarolC

Bunk

"They're saying 'You can't go, and we will happily kill you by the thousands to prevent you from doing so.' That's what the Serbs said to Kosovo, isn't it?" ~ LH

Bunk rides again.

Kosovo was taken from historic owners the Serbs (Orthodox) by Muslims who had slowly but intentionally moved into Serbian territory as an expansion move, both by ethnic Albanians and Muslims. Pure expansionism.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM

Carol, I have said for many years, and from the beginning of this thread, that Georgia's actions were wrong, but Russia is using Ossetia as an excuse to further it's own goals, which are quite obvious even to people who have never been in Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM

The Washington Post is also using weasel wording to promote its hidden agenda. South Ossetia was already separated from Georgia, and was functioning independently from Georgia (since 1992). Georgia started the fighting by bombing and shelling civilian population centers in South Ossetia in order to undo what had already been done more than a decade before.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:01 PM

Certainly the Russians have their own agenda. But calling for the Russians to leave South Ossetia while Georgia is still massacring civilians there is quite obviously wrong. And saying that Georgia had a right to separate from Russia, but South Ossetia does not have a right to separate from Georgia is also quite obviously wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:09 PM

"Carol, I have said for many years, and from the beginning of this thread, that Georgia's actions were wrong, but Russia is using Ossetia as an excuse to further it's own goals, which are quite obvious even to people who have never been in Russia."

Dead right again, Volgadon. Like I said, it's normal great power (and small power) politics.

Both Georgia and Russia have acted entirely in their own self-interest...just as the USA always acts entirely in its own self-interest. It is facile to endow any of these national participants with a halo of righteousness, because they are all simply pursuing pragmatic ends to what they imagine to be their own benefit. You listening, pdq? ;-)

The Georgians miscalculated, that's all. They underestimated the dangers of a massive Russian response, and they have probably overestimated the extent to which the West will go to help them out.

I would certainly not start a Third World War with Russia over Georgia or South Ossetia, I'll tell you that. To do so would be idiotic, not to mention futile.

Have the Russians ever started a Third World War over the many USA interventions in Latin America? Nope. The one time there was a real danger of that was in the Cuban crisis, but that was because Russia had installed nuclear missiles in Cuba. The West has not installed nuclear missiles in Georgia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:23 PM

"...Moscow's timing suggests that Putin seeks to overthrow Saakashvili well ahead of our elections, and thus avoid beginning relations with the next president on an overtly confrontational note." ~ bb

At least a few people here are thinking clearly.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:39 PM

That would be a good strategic move on the part of the Russians. Typical great power politics, as I've said.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:40 PM

Carol, I don't think anyone here is saying that Russia should get out of South Ossetia, but they should get out of the rest of Georgia, if the issue truly is about Ossetia. I think the biggest issue here is actualy the UKRAINE. What do these terms tell you:
Donbass. Crimea. Kharkov.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Leadbelly
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:42 PM

Thinking of the massacre in South Ossetia for which Saakashvili has to take resposibility it reminds me of another "vili" aka Stalin.
He was a Georgian, too.
Seems to be some kind of tradition to act like this.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:44 PM

"they should get out of the rest of Georgia, if the issue truly is about Ossetia."

True enough.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:45 PM

On a pedantic note- shvili. A lot of the blame for the current problems in South Ossetia can be laid at his door. Despite the friendship of the nations policy, he turned a blind eye to replacing the latin-based Ossetian alphabet with a Georgian one, to their efforts to replace Ossetian culture and identity with Georgian ones.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM

"Georgia started the fighting by bombing and shelling civilian population centers in South Ossetia in order to undo what had already been done more than a decade before. "


Glad to know that CarolC is a witness to all of this. The reports I had heard were that, IN RESPONSE to the South Ossetian shelling of Georgia, the Georgians responded by the shelling and occupation of South Ossetia, until driven out by the Russians, who are now well into Georgia ( as well as occupying the other enclave).


All tha must be wrong, since it is not what CarolC says is happening.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM

"Kosovo was taken from historic owners the Serbs (Orthodox) by Muslims who had slowly but intentionally moved into Serbian territory as an expansion move, both by ethnic Albanians and Muslims. Pure expansionism."

This is pure, ignorant, prejudiced rubbish and shouldn't go unchallenged! There have been ethnic Albanians in Kosovo for centuries and they have just as much right to be there as the Serbs! If you don't believe me read Noel Malcolm's book, 'A Short History of Kosovo'.

Many ethnic groups in the Balkans have nationalist myths, all of which should be taken with a pinch of salt. A particular Serbian myth is that, at the end of the 17th century, after Kosovo Serbs were defeated by the Ottomans, they were forced to flee to Hungary and Albanians 'flooded' into Kosovo. Dr Malcolm shows this narrative to be largely mythical. And even if it were true, it is no excuse for the vicious practice of 'ethnic cleansing' 300 years later!!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:58 PM

Georgia claims Russians have cut country in half
Monday, August 11, 2008 6:34:56 PM

Georgia's president says Russia's troops have effectively cut the country in half by seizing a strategic city that straddles the country's main east-west highway.

President Mikhail Saakashvili made the statement in a national security council meeting on Monday, about an hour after officials claimed Russian troops had captured Gori, about 60 miles west of the capital Tbilisi.

The news agency Interfax cited a Russian Defense Ministry official as denying the reports of the seizure.

But a top official at the Georgian embassy in Moscow, Givi Shugarov, said Russian troops appeared to be moving toward Tbilisi and he alleged Russia's goal was "complete liquidation" of the Georgian government.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:04 PM

This ain't nuthin' more than Putin-head doing in Georgia what Bush has tried to do in Iraq...

Colonialism/inperialism is alive and well these days...

I blame this 99% on Bush setting the example with his war of choice and not engaging Putin and Russia diplomatically on a consistent basis...

This war could have been avoided but now looks as if the next president is going to have another Cold War on his hands and I would hope that whomever it is isn't stupid enough to think it can be won with guns 'casue it can't...

Just more reason for US to get the heck outta Iraq and be a better role model...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Leadbelly
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM

Just found this which was written more than 3(!) years ago.

Source: www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1335682/posts

"The Saakashvili Stalin-like grip

Posted on Freitag, 04. Februar 2005 09:25:20 by Rezo

The Saakashvili Stalin-like grip

The Saakashvili Stalin-like grip of power is getting tighter with each passing day. The independent observers are comparing the personnel shifts in Georgia to sheer repressions and pointing to the already established dictatorship and obvious signs of authoritarian regime in Georgia. Not only the Saakashvili crusade on non-loyal to him Georgian businessmen testifies to the effect. This is also political and judicial harassment of the ex-officials not supportive of the nationalistic ambitions of their new strongman. This is also lack of any tolerance towards the journalists praising the 'revolution of roses' and the presidential command at every corner. Journalists are taking it for serious that freedom of speech is gravely endangered now. Mass media staffers are banned for instance from zones of disputed status in the framework of Georgia-Osetia and Georgia-Abkhazia stand-offs. Their reports on Georgian soldiers' slaughter towards people belonging to ethnical minorities and articles on human rights abuse in Adzharia are usually shelved. TV outlets' coverage of Armenians of Javakhetia being oppressed is absent at all. Generally, it makes the impression that Georgian revolution forced the country on the totalitarian way. The president of Georgia has got the false idea of his own importance. He is thinking of himself as of the almighty Stalin. The people of Georgia paved the way for Saakashvili to occupy the presidential chair a year or so ago. He doesn't care about that people any more. There is only power he is really after. Saakashvili is intoxicated with power. While most Georgians are hardly making both ends meet he is constantly threatening former autonomous regions with militant statements. But the budget of Georgia is too slender both for wars and social payments. Saakashvili is not on the message. He is crazy with the idea of completely subduing the autonomies. He is after power only and not after control. Power unlike control doesn't entail the responsibility. And again Saakashvili is talking of repressions. According to his voiced plans, when subdued Abkhazia will be left without 70% of Abkhazians destined for other places of living to make 'favorable living conditions' for the local Georgians. But Mishiko seems to be unaware of the fact he is only a puppet in the hands of some far more influential figures towering him. If the new Georgian leadership stays under Soros or Miles influence it'll be unable to secure the integrity of Georgia. The repressions in no way can't solve the problem."

As has been said: more than 3 years ago. Everbody could/should have known...

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Leadbelly
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:36 PM

Last but not least, that's the new "hero" of George W.,his vice-president and all other people in hate with Russia???

Source: The Guardian,UK. www.guardian co.uk/world/2004/.....

".......In an interview with a Dutch magazine, Sandra Roelofs, the Dutch wife of the new Georgian president and hence the new first lady of Georgia, explained that her husband aspires to follow in the long tradition of strong Georgian leaders "like Stalin and Beria". Saakashvili started his march on Tbilisi last November with a rally in front of the statue of Stalin in his birthplace, Gori......"

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:38 PM

I think that Putin is doing this now because he is running out of time to stick it to Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:22 PM

Bush couldn't care less, Jack... You see the piture in this morning's paper... He has reverted back to his ol' collage drunk frat boy/cheerleader self... Hey, everyone knows he is in way over head with foriegn policy... Problem is that today he cares alot more about whether or not the kid gets 8 gols medals in swimming than what Putin is orderin' up 3000 miles to the east...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:39 PM

In all of the accounts I've read, it was Georgia that started the bombing, and not South Ossetian separatists.

Why would the South Ossetians want to bomb Georgia? They would have nothing to gain by doing so, and everything to lose. They won the civil war with Georgia in 1992, and have been living independently from Georgia ever since. Georgia, on the other hand, which wants to reabsorb South Ossetia (against the will of the South Ossetians), is the only party with a reason for wanting to bomb anyone. The people who are trying to make it look like Russia and South Ossetia started this are lying.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:45 PM

And by the way, everyone in power in the US (including the media) is calling for Russia to leave South Ossetia. The reason it looks like they are saying Russia should only get out of Georgia (and not South Ossetia) is because when they say "Georgia", they are also talking about South Ossetia. They aren't recognizing South Ossetia as a separate entity.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:46 PM

Actually, I think it is quite easily possible to put the blame squarely on George Bush. He thought he could play the big man, and pump up Georgia against Russia, and now that the bill has come due, he doesn't have the ability to do anything about it. Another diplomatic triumph for the Bush administration.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:57 PM

(agree)   (Cheney/Bush)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:23 PM

Yeah Heric, Peter, I think it is Bush's Hubris coming home to roost.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:23 PM

Just heard Bush on TV. He's aware that Georgia is in Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:36 PM

Well, that's a start!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:01 PM

Good. Atlanta will breathe easier tonight. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:06 PM

Yeah. But it's also in Asia, too.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:41 PM

Well, I just watched McCain mispronounced Saakshvili's name three times. So, it's a given. He'll be elected. (Hey, it worked for Bush!)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: skarpi
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:52 PM

well saakasvílí started this war , and attacked the russian
peace soldiers , so he gets what he asked for , and who said any way
that Russia cant be like the Americans ??


well I hope it will end soon

ATB Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 08:41 PM

"so he gets what he asked for"

The Georgian people get it, not him. Unfortunately, these bastards that start wars send other people's kids to get killed. They seldom do themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:30 AM

Next step- hope there's not a cold winter, because the Russians will almost certainly "accidentally" turn off the gas pipeline to Ukraine and probably Europe.

As I said before, it serves us right for getting dependent on them. We've already had 35% increases in gas prices announced in Britain- it could reach 100% or more as this develops. Thank you to the far- sighted British politicians who used our North Sea oil and gas reserves to crush the unions and fuel a feelgood economic boom.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:50 AM

Teribus--

I deduce from your tone that you don't think that self-determination for the South Ossetians would result in their choosing a similar status to that of North Ossetia.

From Google:   "Before the Georgian-Ossetian conflict, roughly 2/3 of the population of South Ossetia was Ossetian.   25%-30% was Georgian." according to the Permament Committee on Geographical Names for British Official Use".   This is before the current hostilities--that is, before any ethnic cleansing as a result of the 2008 crisis.

"By August 2008, more than 70% of the South Ossetian citizens had Russian citizenship.`'--again, Google.

Obviously the South Ossetians want as much autonomy as they can get. They have seen how much Georgia is willing to give them.

It's time for you to provide some actual evidence and logic that the South Ossetians would not now voluntarily choose a similar status to that of North Ossetia, which is officially a part of Russia, rather than the status they now have within Georgia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:14 AM

Looks like a cease fire.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:19 AM

Would be nice if Saakashvili could be taken for a walk in the woods before the Russian troops leave.