definition of a ballad

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 05:02 AM

'John Barleycorn' tells a story but because it is clearly a fictitious analogy it doesn't feel like a ballad any more than (for me) Marrowbones or Molecatcher. Perhaps the story has to feel as though it did once happen? But then there's my favourite Tamlane.

The world of John Barleycorn is very different to Tamlane; one is, as you say, a fictitious analogy; a personification of the agricultural year with respect to a quasi-religious morphology which many might assume to be somehow archetypal, and might well be! As a contributor to the John Barleycorn Reborn CD (volume two in the offing!) I'm aware just how broad opinions are on this one. John Barleycorn - archetypal pagan hymn or parody of Church orthodoxy? Anyway, it is certainly not a ballad.

Tamlane is a ballad, and like many ballads it deals in the supernatural, as oppose to the allegorical, though I dare say there are any amount of allegorical readings of it. As for the element of believability, in the world of supernatural narrative, we do believe, simply because such things continue to scare us, for whatever reason. Traditional tales of the supernatural are told not as allegory, but as truth; ghost stories, first hand accounts, and related Forteana all exist with quite vivid immediacy to which we're never quite immune, which is why such films as The Sixth Sense give us such significant pause for thought.

I like to think of myself as a materialist; however, I do allow that there are more things in heaven & earth, and that supernatural ballads such as Tamlane are effective because of our capacity to take such things quite literally - especially now that the nights are drawing in, and summer, such as it was, is officially over...

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 05:35 AM

"that is a personal attack."
It wasn't intended to be.
It is an observation that a ballad which has gone into 100 plus versions, not counting the 'Billy Boy' parodies, is a little more than
"a piece of tedious drivel" with "an inferior tune".
I merely suggested that you might have missed something that many others have recognised.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:01 AM

Green and yeller! Green and yeller! Mother be quick I got to be sick and lay me down to die.

A musical highpoint of my life (thus far) was a recent trip to The Moorbrook Folk Club in Preston where Greg Butler and Tom Walsh sang this in roaring duet from opposite corners of the room. Oh to be in the company of such giants!

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:12 AM

I have not missed anything,including your patronising remarks
I consider it an inferior ballad, plot wise to say Thomas the Rhymer,or Tam lin,or willie of the winsbury,or Lord Bateman.
[ Not an easy ballad to sing and make work, I'll grant you - obviously above his head. There are certainly some magnificent tunes for the ballad.
He'd be probably be well advised to stick to something as simple to follow as Marrowbones]quote Jim Carroll.
that is patronising,and casts aspersions on my singing ability
here is my version of Willie of the winsbury,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0zAr1t6nTE
if you can do better,Jim,put a recording of yourself on youtube.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 07:14 AM

Cap'n
The suggestion I made are similar to that I have heard given at many CCE competitions.
You are a strong advocate of competitions, yet you respond to criticism of yourself as personal attacks.
It's hard to know where to go with this Cap'n - so let's leave it there.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 07:15 AM

To hear some tedious drivel, click here

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 08:27 AM

Brian,I have never heard your version of Lord Randall ,my remarks were: the tunes and versions I have heard to date .
I stand by my remarks the plot is thin,and the tunes I have heard to date uninspiring.
in due course I will listen to your version.
JimCarroll it was completely unnecessary to bring my singing into this discussion.
BB felt like that about Prickly Bush.WLD Sheath andKnife,and Tam linn.
yet you chose to make a snide remark about me,now #### off.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 08:50 AM

Cap'n,
Didn't mention your singing - just your judgment of a ballad.
"now #### off."
Tsk-tsk - language!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: GUEST,JHW in the library again
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 09:25 AM

Another one bites the dust I see. Just as I was going to suggest that the more parameters a ballad is deemed to require to be one, the more will thus be excluded.
I'd previously thought the offering that a ballad should not contain comment was perhaps relevant, especially as it was an angle I hadn't considered. But while not even thinking about songs 'Woe be to the little foot page and an ill death may he die' came to mind so that idea goes the journey too as Musgrave is certainly a ballad.
John

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 10:26 AM

my judgement of aballad is being questioned.
ok lets analyse the plots
thomas the rhymer.thomas is lying asleep,he,is abducted by the queen of the elves,told not to kiss her lips,or he will never return from the elfin kingdom shown three different roads the road to hell, the road to heaven, and the road to the elfin kingdom.he is warned never to tell what he is seen,or ever speak in the Elfyn land.
15.oh they rodeon and farther on.
and they waded thru rivers aboon the knee.
and they sawneither sun nor moon
.but they heard the roaring of the sea.
16.it was mirk mirk night,and there was nae stern light
and theywaded thru red blod up to the knee.for all the blood that shedon earth
runs thru the springs of that countrie.
17.soon they came to a garden green
ans she plucked an apple from atree
take this for thywages true thomas.it willgive the the tongue that can never lie.
18.my tongue is mine own
a goodly gift ye wood gie to me.
Ineitherdought to buy or sell
at fair or tryst where imay be.
19 now hold thy peace the lady said.for asI SAY SO IT MUST BE.
20.he has gotten a coat of the elven cloth
and a pair of shoes of velvet green
and till 7 years were gane and past
true thomas on earth was never seen.
this is an interestsing story,ans some wonderful poetry,compared to Randall bleating on about his poisining,that in some versions is done by his sister.and in some by his stepmother.And some by an anonymous well wisher.
neither does RandallS PLOT compare in complexity or subtelty to Tamm Linn,Willie of Winesbury,Lord Bateman.Barbara Allen,OR jean ritchies version of the lass of loch royan.
as far as I am concerned the plot of Randall is no more interest than watching a blank television screens.,or reading Pincher Martin

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 10:31 AM

"....as far as I am concerned the plot of Randall is no more interest than watching a blank television screens.,or reading Pincher Martin"

Ah, 'Pincher Martin' - a brilliant piece of work. Perhaps this explains why we differ over 'Lord Randall'. I'm not so fond of blank TV screens, though.

Remind me of the number of times 'Lord Randall' and 'Thomas Rhymer' have been collected in tradition. 'The folk' don't seem to agree with your judgement.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 11:02 AM

Pincher Martin,brilliant ,I have to disagree.
lord of the flies, yes.
why is the number of times something collected in the tradition of any relevance, why does popularity=good.
Collectors also play apart,making decisions as to what they think is worthy of collection
if popularity=good,tie the yellow ribbon,which is sung by ordinary people [the folk]is better than Lord Randall,andThomasThe rhymer,BarbaraAllen.
in that case present day folk music/ football chants are good ,because they are sung by the folk,but we know they are not
if popularity = good ,lord of the Flies is better than Pincher Martin,because it has sold more and been made in to a film.
remind me, how many times, Lord Randall has been collected compared to Barbara Allen.
no that argument wont wash,Because something is popular with the folk,it doesnt mean it has any merit,if it did you and I would be singing LILY THE PINK.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 01:04 PM

Why, oh why do people insist that a definition should be based on their personal likes and dislikes?

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 02:24 PM

I dunno, Dick. Is defining by likes and dislikes any worse than basing a definition on one's personal opinion? Seems to me that defining something like a ballad is futile. It's necessary to set agreed definitions for such things - but the essence of the definition is in the agreement, not in the essence of the song itself.

So, could you people just sit down and agree on what you're going to define as ballad? Don't waste too much time crafting your agreement, because you could just as well define it differently. There is no correct definition of ballad - a ballad is whatever people generally agree it is. So, perhaps, the essence of the definition is the consensus.

And there is no such thing as consensus among folk musicians, so then we get back to futility.

-Joe-


And I came to this thread because I was asked to determine whether something was a "personal attack." In this case, it's as debatable as the definition of "ballad." But do try not to insult each other, willya?

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 03:41 PM

Joe-
That's epistimological nihilism! THe fact that people misuse existing definitions instead of creating new ones for things that don't really fit the original definition (like "folk") doesn't mean that it's impossible to develop a useful definition. Or that such a definition isn't useful.

An analogy: What's the definition of a car? Well one could quibble about whether or not it has to have four wheels,or whether it must be powered by an internal-combustion engine, or whether it must operate on public roads; deciding to exclude Fords from that simply defined class because one doesn't happen to like Fords is plain semantic balderdash (also poppycock and tommyrot).

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 04:10 PM

Hopefully avoiding the childish squabbles....

JHW..You misunderstood the characteristic here. Comment by the characters is actually one of the most important characteristics, it's comment by the narrator's voice that is deemed to be uncharacteristic, BUT even then whilst it does not exist in the earlier ballads of the 16th century it gradually crept in during the following centuries as the people became more aware of the wider world and their own place in it. The lack/presence of narrator comment is one of the parameters Child used to determine whether a ballad was old or quite recent.

Confession...this is not off the top of my head, I have just been rereading Willa Muir's excellent 'Living With Ballads'.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: JHW
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:48 PM

I thought in Musgrave it is the narrator who says 'and woe be to the little foot page' Who else could it be?   At this point in the song Musgrave and Lady Barnard are ensconced together so are blissfully unaware until Barnard's arrival?
I haven't looked at this thread for a while. When discussions or squabbles get to full screen postings I stop looking.    I'll try the library to find me 'Living with Ballads' though.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 06:03 AM

I think with all these songs. Its down to the performance.

If you want poetry - read poetry. Its a diferent sort of pact - between you and the poet.

With ballads the pact is definitely between the performer and the ballad. not even the writer of the ballad. the performer selects the bits he can make work. brian for example leaves those bits out of ships capenter about the hills of hell, and the hills of heaven - presumably cos it slows down the action.

I didn't always feel that way about Sheath and knife. i used to like Tony Rose singing it.

i've heard other pretty good singers have a shot - paul downes and martin carthy and not really liked it. In fact I was sorry when I heard paul and phil were planning it as one of the trax for their reunion recording. I just think its a waste of effort by talented people.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 06:32 AM

With ballads the pact is definitely between the performer and the ballad

Interesting stuff, WLD. However - as a storyteller & singer who tells & sings only traditional tales, folk song & balladry (especially), I believe that such material carries various & richly complex levels of meaning & experience that ultimately only the listener might ever become aware of, and even then not necessarily on a conscious level. I see this as something of a collective meme however so subjective the experience; a hidden something or other that is very often the catalyst for a more eldritch communion.

I always make bloody sure the hills of heaven & hell are in there on account of the beauty and power of the imagery. Here the ballad crosses that point of actuality into the explicit realms of otherness which has been implicit throughout the rest of it. It's the juxtaposition of the natural & the supernatural that makes it work - the human experience that suddenly faces the consequences. As an atheist I don't believe in heaven or hell, but as a Neo-Gnostic Marxist of a particularly dualistic bent, I feel it is the dialectical moral tension that drives these ballads along irrespective of the action per se.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 06:21 PM

Insane,
As your name suggests, you are obviously on a different plane to the rest of us. As a story-teller you have a vivid imagination, and so you should, but traditional ballads tell a simple straightforward story and any powerful imagery is often an interloper inserted at some point by someone like yourself. No doubt your tales contain 'various & richly complex levels of meaning & experience that ultimately only the listener might ever become aware of, and even then not necessarily on a conscious level.' but the vast majority of traditional ballads do not! The Duke's daughter in 'The Cruel Mother' meets up with the ghosts of her 2 murdered infants and without any surprise or narrator's comments she accepts their condemning of her to hell in compliance with contemporary beliefs.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:05 PM

it's a song based on a story-legend that has variants. Barbara Allen comes to mind and was almost extinct until it appeared in pring.

A ballad-style or ballad-type can be composed but is not really an authentic ballad
because it doesn't have the historical precedent of a story-line passed down through ages.

You can call something a ballad but a real one has to have withstood the test of time and have variants.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:55 PM

Frank-
You're talking about the "traditional" part of "traditional ballads". and wotinhell is an "inauthentic" or "unauthentic" anything if it doesn't claim authenticity?

I think that the definition of as ballad as a song with an explicit narrative is a useful one--if you wish to split out specific classes of ballads (broadside, popular, modern, cowboy, whatever) that's what adjectives are for.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:29 PM

Keep repeating it, Dick. It might hit home eventually.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: curmudgeon
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:49 PM

I think we've come full circle here. A (choose your own modifier) ballad is still just a song that tells a story - Tom

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: JeffB
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 07:00 PM

"I think that the definition of a ballad as a song with an explicit narrative is a useful one - if you wish to split out specific classes of ballads (broadside, popular, modern, cowboy, whatever) that's what adjectives are for."

Err ... yes. I was trying to say that in my first post of 28th last month. You can't compare "ballads" such as "Tamlin" and "Leader of the Pack" because all they have in common is the narrative element. The cultural differences are too great - apples and oranges. If you can't compare them then you can't give them a common definition. What you can do is define categories of narrative song. This might involve the time periods in which they were composed; technical features such as rhyme and verse structure; geographical areas of composition; and (referencing WLD's post of 16th) the expectations of performer, audience, and professional agent.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:24 PM

JeffB-
Oddly enough, it's quite possible to compare apples to oranges. Oranges are generally rounder; apples are less juicy. Oranges are a better source of vitamin C. etc.

Similarly, I see no reason why one can't compare vastly different ballads. There are some fundamental differences between Tamlin and Leader of the Pack; there are also fundamental differences between Tamlin and Our Goodman.

What you're saying is basically what I'm saying--except that I find "ballad" a more convenient term than "narrative song". I'm all in favor of sub-classes.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 05:27 AM

Insane,
As your name suggests, you are obviously on a different plane to the rest of us.

A different planet evidently, Steve. Still, I wasn't aware there was any consensus on sanity - certainly not on Mudcat anyway, where cranky idiosyncrasy seems very much to be the order of the day. Still, if you feel the need to hurl around that sort of abuse just to show how normal you think you are, then I'll take that as a fair indication of the contrary. Welcome to the club, dear boy!

As a story-teller you have a vivid imagination, and so you should, but traditional ballads tell a simple straightforward story and any powerful imagery is often an interloper inserted at some point by someone like yourself.

As a storyteller I don't have an imagination at all, vivid or otherwise; in fact, I would say that's the very thing a storyteller should not have, especially one (such as myself) who only tells and sings traditional material. Traditional ballads tell any amount of stories, in any amount of ways, but seldom are any of them so simple or indeed straightforward at any level that they would require the sort interloper you suggest.

No doubt your tales contain 'various & richly complex levels of meaning & experience that ultimately only the listener might ever become aware of, and even then not necessarily on a conscious level.'

Ultimately, the experience of any narrative (traditional or otherwise, but let's assume traditional here) is essentially subjective; the role of the singer or storyteller is mediumistic to this end - their job is not a creative or imaginative one, but simply one of a performer. Whatever empowers them in this respect, they do not determine the nature of that experience for the listener, nor yet are they themselves aware of the inherent layers that exist within any given narrative, any one of which might set off any amount of triggers within the mind of the listener. Thus do I say complex levels of meaning & experience that ultimately only the listener might ever become aware of, and even then not necessarily on a conscious level.

but the vast majority of traditional ballads do not!

Oh but they do, Steve - they all do. Apart from anything else, in balladry, imagery and narrative coexist in a poise of intimate union; they are part and parcel of the self same purpose, the one thing carrying the other in perfect accord. The experience is, therefore, at that point whereby the subjective mind is inseminated by the objective image, a process which isn't just limited to the experience of traditional ballads, but all levels of narrative (which might include a play by Edward Albee or a mother-in-law joke by Bernard Manning). The ballad imagery, as with traditional folk songs & stories, is borne from a collective process, and shaped, accordingly, to the requirements of such material in terms of pure function - which is to say, there is a very definite reason for each and every one of them, no matter how essentially unsayable that reason might be.   

The Duke's daughter in 'The Cruel Mother' meets up with the ghosts of her 2 murdered infants and without any surprise or narrator's comments she accepts their condemning of her to hell in compliance with contemporary beliefs.

Well, there's any amount of versions of The Cruel Mother - so perhaps a comparative study is in order here? In the version I'm most familiar with, she doesn't accept her punishment at all Welcome, welcome, bird on the tree / Welcome, welcome, fish i the sea / Welcome, welcome, eel i the pule / But oh for gudesake, keep me frae hell! - which is, in any case, as rich a piece of imagery as you'll find. An interloper? I hardly think so. In fact if anything's an interloper with respect to The Cruel Mother it is the conception set up which does feel extraneous to the sense of the song - only 5 of the 13 featured in Child feature this scenario, and maybe the same is true of versions elsewhere. Otherwise, I'd say the whole ballad operates on a level of pure imagery, all the more apparent in the version one may hear superlatively sung by Mrs Pearl Brewer of Pocahantas at The Max Hunter Folk Song Collection - this is reduction to the pure essence of the thing which even on a conscious level carries a richness of imagery as to be quite breathtaking.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 06:15 AM

PS - Regarding images & folk songs in general; I'm currently working on a number of things I was drawn to by image resonance alone, including Cob-a-Coaling (...up a ladder, down a wall / a cob a coal will save us all...), Leg of a Mallard (...I've ate and I've ate and what have I ate? I've eaten the leg of a mallard - leg and leg, thigh and thigh, foot and foot, toe and toe, toe nibbins and all - the beautiful leg of a mallard...) and The Sheep Stealer (...the children will pull the skin from the ewe...). The resonance is entirely subjective; these foolish things as might thrill me in the balls and make me glad to be not only alive, but receptive to such imagery as can only ever be objectively traditional. I get the same thing when I look at old misericords; in the parish church at Whalley at the weekend we came across This - the text of which reads Whoso melles him of that al men dos, het hym cum hier and shoe the ghos (whoever meddles in the ways of man, let him come here and shoe the goose). Maybe there's a lesson in that somewhere...

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:00 PM

Unreserved apology for stooping to such a wisecrack and freely admitting to my own insanity. But to produce such an interesting response it was worth the dig.

I apologise also for accusing you of embellishment without any evidence. I agree that the stories and ballads need little help from us lesser mortals.

However I still disagree over the idea of multi-layered ballads. For me they tell a simple straightforward story and I love them for it. I think we are using different definitions of 'imagery'. I was using it in a literary sense, e.g., similes, metaphors, allegories.

Yes meanings in ballads can alter from version to version, that's part of the folk process, and listeners can make slight differences in their interpretations, but by and large the story is simple and straightforward.

How you can say that the 'conception set up' part of the ballad is an interloper certainly beats me. It was there in what I take to be the original, i.e., the 17th century broadside. The Scots additions from Child 21 are certainly embellishments if not interlopers. Some would say an improvement. We are all entitled to our opinions here. Like you I go for the stark simple versions pared down to the bare bones, like the version I sing.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 03:46 PM

'whoever meddles in the ways of man, let him come here and shoe the goose'

on the face of it, complete bollocks. but someone seems to have gone to a lot of trouble to say that. what CAN it all mean....?

On the subject of miserichords, in the ones in Boston Stump - there is a picture of a schoolboy being birched. this tended to confrm to all us kids receiving instruction at Boston Grammar School, that making their kids lives miserable has always been a top concern over there in the flatlands.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:24 PM

to shoe the goose - to waste one's time in a fruitless or trivial activity. Thus - whoever concerns himself with the ways of man is wasting his time (and by implication) better concern yourself with the ways of God. Personally, I'm all for shoeing the goose myself.

Another detail of the Whalley misericord Here.

Must check out Boston Stump. I tell kids about the sort of punishments our generation had to endure as part of our education and they think I'm having a laugh.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 03:39 AM

I think we are using different definitions of 'imagery'. I was using it in a literary sense, e.g., similes, metaphors, allegories.


Heavens no; I'm a complete literalist when it comes to traditional narrative - ballads in particular - even the most supernatural of which (an especial favourite right now is King Henry) operate on a non-allegorical level.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:53 PM

Mr Beard,
Whilst 32 is undoubtedly of great ancestry as a story, its existence as a ballad in Scots is rather suspect as far as oral tradition goes. The single source is from a well-to-do lady, Mrs Brown (other versions having been worked over by poets). Some of its components exist in other ballads, some of these ballads also suspect. The whole subject of the provenance of much of the Britiah ballads is a thorny one. Both Jamieson and Scott have had their fingers in the pie and they are hardly reliable sources. Of course if one isn't worried about the provenance of a ballad none of this matters one jot, it's a fine enough ballad/story.

Steve the Skeptic

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:59 PM

"Ultimately, the experience of any narrative (traditional or otherwise, but let's assume traditional here) is essentially subjective; the role of the singer or storyteller is mediumistic to this end - their job is not a creative or imaginative one, but simply one of a performer. "

Absolutely academic nonsense. There is a role of creativity when the ballad becomes a vehicle for performance and additions are made over the years. Academics in general have a propensity for downgrading the role of creativity in almost everything.


"Whatever empowers them in this respect, they do not determine the nature of that experience for the listener, nor yet are they themselves aware of the inherent layers that exist within any given narrative, any one of which might set off any amount of triggers within the mind of the listener."

This makes no sense. They are not academic robots for some grey-bearded pseudo-analyst to come along and set up a false standard.

Balladeers are aware and that's why they choose to sing these songs. It would make
no sense otherwise. As for triggers within the mind of the listener, this can only be
set off by an inherent understanding of what they are doing.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:02 PM

"The main aspect in which I strongly disagree with Professor Child and his ilk is the claim that a folk song had no individual author--ever.
Not just that the author was unknown, but that there was none. Folk songs, by their lights, as I understand it, sort of spontaneously appeared. That seems like so much bushwah, to me

The role of the scalp collector in academia is to set a standard by which his/her theory
has to be tested.

Child is one of those who believe that ballads start on paper with certain copyright dates that are identifiable in books or documents.

The "communal theory" of folk music transference assumes that there is a starting point by which the folk music changes. This starting point doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:03 PM

Here's a metaphor. Bach created music that established rules for musical composition taught in musical academies. He broke every rule that he created.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:06 PM

Jim, what Funk and Wagnall leave out is that a folk ballad is in transition. Academicians don't like this because it upsets their social order. It has to be pinned down like a collected butterfly.

"This is the start of a six page definition from Funk and Wagnall's Standard Dictionary of Folklore - fairly comprehensive, but doesn't suit everybody, especially those who don't hold withnew-fangled gadgets like dictionarie"

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:08 PM

Kendall, let's take that statement to the next level.

"Do you read books?"
"Not enough to hurt my thinking".

"Horses don't sing it".   How do we know?

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:13 PM

Don,

I think Jean Ritchie and Woody Guthrie knew something about ballads.

As a result, the wrote some songs that could possibly go into the ballad lexicon.

they say the same about Dylan but I'm not sure here. Dylan to me appears to have written songs that would be received by those in the "folk scare" community because he reflects
their political mindset at the time. Dylan, himself, has disowned the value of his song's
"political" content. This means to me, he wrote because he thought these songs would have commercial value. The question I have is that if this is true, did the motive taint the
intent of the song?

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 05:29 PM

Frank-
I'm afraid that you're putting a value judgment onto the word ballad. A ballad doesn't have to be non-commercial. Or "folk". Or traditional. Or in English, for that matter. Why complicate things?

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 04:41 AM

Whilst 32 is undoubtedly of great ancestry as a story, its existence as a ballad in Scots is rather suspect as far as oral tradition goes

I'm aware of that, but there's a quality in the language / imagery I find entirely beguiling; and so beguiled I am oddly, if not entirely, convinced that, whatever the actual & or dodgy provenance, here is something that, in modern parlance, kicks ass in the ballad stakes. As I once wrote of 32 - a rollicking yarn of the supernaturally grotesque with strong comedic elements suggestive of parody.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 03:39 PM

'there's a quality in the language / imagery I find entirely beguiling; and so beguiled I am oddly, if not entirely, convinced that, whatever the actual & or dodgy provenance, here is something that, in modern parlance, kicks ass in the ballad stakes'

I'm guessing you are partial to some of Peter Buchan's more imaginative effusions then? I've seen the word 'parody' used to describe some of his contributions.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: glueman
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 04:39 PM

Ballad - definition: "song performed by boy band or aspiring member on Saturday evening reality television programme. Intended to generate sentimental scope to encompass wide market, including lachrymose teenagers and maternal dowagers by virtue of strained facial expression and imploring hand gestures. Pejorative term, prefixed by er, a or ooh, a.
See: opportunity for vocal virtuosity/replacement by wholly different tune and unmotivated octave shifts"

Gluester's Dictionary of Apocrypha, XL5 edition.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 01:07 PM

Hi Dick

I think that I'm talking intent, Dick. You don't compose a ballad to make money.
You make a pop tune for that.

A ballad does serve another function. It recreates a legend in different forms.

There is a creative aspect to this. It gets changed by individual performers.

No two ballad singers do it alike.

There's nothing in my view that is complicated about that.

Frank

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:27 PM

The kids at the school where I teach always write 'Ballard'.

I teach that a ballad is a narrative poem, often from the oral tradition, usually anonymous. I also teach that a ballad should have a certain form.

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 07:14 PM

Not to be confused with a thing that traffic drives round....

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 11:18 AM

Most Americans who have been addicted to MTV and the pop music dance movement
wave are not conditioned to sit quietly and listen to ballads. The narratives of arcane
legends are beyond their interest. I have always been partial to them because of the story they tell. They carry the resonance of antiquity and as a result fall prey to academic
meandering and stultifying analysis.

The Bardic aspects of the ballad are apparent when you hear them and not necessarily when you read them off of a page. There is a universal aspect that transcends any country when you consider the stories of the Griots of Africa, the legends from Europe and the Middle East, the Mexican "Corrido" or the Anglo-American singing narratives. This may be stating the obvious but the point it, it's an experiential thing. It requires the same attention as if you were listening to so-called "classical" music and is not meant to be a motor distraction while doing other things. It doesn't really require being dressed up for public consumption through cute arrangements or irrelevant musical divergence.

So much of music today is made for the background. That has its function but is not
the province of the ballad.