BS: Ralph/Raife

Subject: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Mrs_Annie
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:03 AM

This came up a lot on Saturday at Cecil Sharp House.

WHO exactly decided that Ralph now has to be pronounced Raife? And WHY on earth? It's so pretentious and doesn't suit old men. The presenters obviously had issues with it from some of their comments.

Do we know what RVW's family think about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: GUEST,LSM
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:14 AM

Ralph was a common enough name around Manchester when I was growing up. Always sounded like a dog barking I thought.

Ralph Ralph !

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:16 AM

Apparently that's how the family pronounced it, and also how he pronounced it.

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:16 AM

My old Music Master at school (He could talk, his name was Fr Carroll!), insisted on calling me "Rafe"
(Didn't like it then, don't like it now,and made me the object of ridicule by several Neanderthals in my class).
As I am an old man myself now, "Rafe" still doesn't suit me!
But, like you, are there any etymologists out there who can help?

I much prefer my middle name "Cuthbert" ....decent bloke by all accounts.
Bit of an Abbot apparently. Somewhere Oop North.
Not that I've ever been that far North Me'sen.
Seriously, how did my noble name become bastardised?

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:48 AM

His widow, Ursula, was apparently VERY clear that it was, and should always, be pronounced "Rafe".

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:49 AM

But apart from the pronunciations, Mrs Lincoln, what did you think of the show? :)

(There's another thread up in Music).

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 09:17 AM

My father was named Ralph and it wasn't pronounced "Rafe". My nephew is named Ralph and it isn't pronounced "Rafe" -- I wouldn't give him a hard time about it, since he's an ex-Marine (one of his sons is named Xavier, and don't call him "Eksee" or he'll bite you).

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 09:20 AM

I think it's largely an English thing, and specifically amongst those of a particular social class.

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 09:23 AM

case in point:

Ralph Nathaniel Twisleton Wykeham Fiennes

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Grab
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 09:33 AM

Or "Fiennes" pronounced "fines". Or "Menzies" pronounced "mingis". Or "Featherstonehaugh" pronounced "you fat upper-class waster".

For that matter, from our American friends there's Co-Lan Powell. And we haven't even started on personal names derived from town names like Kirkcudbright (Kir-ku-brie) or Happisburgh (Hays-bra).

I guess if that's how your geographical and social influences tell you it's pronounced, and that's how you introduce yourself to people, that's how it'll get said.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Mrs_Annie
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 10:04 AM

Oh I see. I knew it was a clss thing, but I thought it was quite recent. Didn't realise it went that far back. Showing my iggorance of all things upper class now. ;)

(Mrs Lincoln?)

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 10:31 AM

Sorry, Mrs Annie: there's a Tom Lehrer quote Americans sometimes use - "Apart from that, Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 10:46 AM

It doesn't sound right to be when Ralph is pronounced 'Raife' but if that's what the man called himself that's up to him I suppose. I also hate when people pronounce Anthony with a 'th' sound in the middle. I know some drop the 'h' but should we have to spell names incorrectly to get them pronounced right?
Jane (and no it doesn't have a bloody 'y' in it!)

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 11:06 AM

I have also heard Rafe as short for Raphael. Yes I DO know someone with that name and he ain't no turtle!

Cheers

Dave
(Who also happens to be an Antony with no added aitches in the spelling)

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 12:53 PM

Akansas/Kansas City, Stoufville, and many more (we pass on Mobile)

Names are personal - that's why.

Raife V-W it is, and in Rouge Towers is always has been. For the reasons stated.

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Surreysinger
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 02:17 PM

As with many names there can be more than one pronunciation, and quite often its a matter of era, and fashion. Owners of my given name, Irene, who were born in the 1920's would have pronounced it I-Ree-Nee (some others still do) - I personally loathe that pronunciation. Neither pronunciation is actually more correct than the other.

In the case of Ralph ... Raife would have been the correct pronunciation for someone of RVW's age/date of birth and social status ... I suspect he would have found the current more common pronunciation just that .... common!

Out of interest, a particular Gilbert and Sullivan opera uses the name, and uses it to rhyme with the word "waif" ... but at the end of the day there's no correct way of pronouncing ANY name ... it's down to how the owner wants it pronounced (or even spelled ... cf Clare, and Claire ... both equally correct). So in this instance, not pretentious, just the correct way of pronouncing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Surreysinger
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 02:19 PM

And here's the quote from HMS Pinafore..

"In time each little waif
Forsook his foster-mother,
The well born babe was Ralph--
Your captain was the other!!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 03:20 PM

Don't confuse the Virginian Talliferros (pronounced "Tolliver") with the Talliferros or pistols at dawn will ensue!

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 03:57 PM

I have a friend who actually is named Raefe.

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: DougR
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:09 PM

Don't know if anyone has seen the BBC Television series about Churchill starring Albert Finney as Churchill, but there was a character named Ralph in the series which was pronounced Rafe.

My mother in her infinite wisdom gave me Rayford as my first name. I went to great pains to conceal it while in high school but somehow some classmates found out (probably from my mother). The rest of the year, to my classmates, I was Rafe instead of Doug.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:16 PM

Then you're actually RDoug.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:18 PM

Mr. Red mentioned "Arkansas".    AR-kan-saw, right?

That's fine if you mean the state. But if you're talking about rivers, it's the Ar-KAN-Zus River.

Go figure.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Acorn4
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 06:19 PM

I always find "sinjun" (St John) particularly irritating, as in Norman Sinjun Stevens.

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 06:22 PM

Sir Ralph Richardson, the actor, was another high-profile example of Rafe.

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: DougR
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:25 PM

WYSIWYG: Well, yes, I guess I could have been.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:55 PM

I recall a review of that Gilbert & Sullivan when they were wondering whether the British didn't know how to pronounce Ralph, or didn't know how to spell Rafe...

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Gurney
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 11:55 PM

Ralph Vaughn Williams pronounced his name Rafe Vorn Williams.

I suspect a considerable amount of the language is designed to confuse the foreigner.

Just as it should be. They live next door to France. Try to pronounce that language working from the spelling.

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: meself
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:57 AM

Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:47 AM

RVW was actually raif, unlike the Bucket woman and her pretensions.

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:53 AM

I think, broadly speaking, people should be credited with the knowledge of what their own name is. However some people would like him to have pronounced it,RVW was Raife. And he should know.

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:08 AM

At the Philharmonia Orchestra's RVW Study Day at the British Library earlier this year, a number of intelligent and erudite questions were raised by the audience. Funnily enough, the last question of the day was from a chap who said to the (impressive) assembled panel, "Can you just clear up the one thing that's been bothering me all day: You lot keep saying Rafe. Is it Ralph or Rafe?" To which Michael Kennedy - surely the RVW expert if there ever was one, replied succinctly, "It is Rafe." At which point the chasp in the audience protested, gesturing towards the display area in the foyer, "But it says Ralph everywhere out there!"


Clearly not just confusing for the non-British...

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:51 AM

Rafe McTell? Don't think so! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 07:21 AM

I think I'm going to cry.
Please leave my name alone!
What did it ever do to you?
Yours
Rafe (Oh Bugger) Ralph

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: lady penelope
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:54 AM

Mmm, this is something that's always bugged me. If it's Raif then why can't they spell it that way? And if Colin Powell wants me to call him 'Kohlin' then why can't he change the spelling??? There are accepted phonetic values to letters and groups of letters, if you want your name to sound a paticular way there is nothing to stop you from using the approriate groups of letters! Or is it more enjoyable to whine every time someone mispronounces your name becaues, well gosh, they've said it the way it's spelled??

My name is a case in point. It's pronounced (currently) Pehnehlowpee. But you'd be accurate pronouncing it Pennyloap - if it were an even vaguely english word instead of greek. Many people do call me that - well, when they find out that that's my full name (it's amazing how many people think I'm named after a coin....), but still it's no reason to stamp my feet and whinge on about people getting it wrong.

As for stuff like Sinjin (Saint John) that's sheer lazyness of pronunciation, it's literally the two words slurred together. Sinclair's the same (Saint Clair). As for Fanshaw (Feather-stone-haugh) how the snetting heck did that happen??? And Chomoldeley, how on earth does that work out as Chumley????

Urrgh...I think I should go away and lie down till the red mist fades....

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 10:32 AM

From an etymology website:

"RALPH
Gender: Masculine

Usage: English, Scandinavian, German

Pronounced: RALF (English), RAYF (English), RAHLF (German)   [key]

Contracted form of the Old Norse name RAÐÚLFR (or its Norman form Radulf). It was apparently introduced into England by Scandinavian settlers before the Norman conquest, though afterward it was bolstered by Norman influence. In the Middle Ages it was usually spelled Ralf, but by the 17th century it was most commonly Rafe, reflecting the normal pronunciation. The Ralph spelling appeared in the 18th century."

The pronunciation pre-dates the current spelling, it would seem.

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: GUEST,Cool Beans at a new computer
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 10:56 AM

What about that place in Canada, Newfin-LAND?

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:24 AM

RVW collected his first folk songs in the village of Ingrave in Essex. I have read that 'Ingrave' roughly translates as 'Ralph's (Rafe's) people' - spooky!!

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: GUEST,Raife/Ralph
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 04:12 AM

OK.
So I'm either an Old Norse, or a Norman. (hopefully not Tebbit)
Woop-Di-Doo!
Time to break out ThorsHammer methinks.
Excellent stuff.

Any other Ralph/Raifes in history?

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 08:07 AM

Ralph Cholmonderly-Mesne of
Barnoldswick.

pronounced

Raife Chumley-Main
of Barnick.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Joseph P
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 08:29 AM

My cousin's dog is called Raife, mind you they do live near Tunbridge Wells!

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 08:53 AM

Anthony Trollope's 'Ralph the Heir' is, in my opinion, one of his best novels.

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Rowan
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 05:56 PM

When in Rome....

Pronunciation is one of those wonderful markers that we can use to unite or divide, at will.

Having been brought up in Oz at a time when the influence of British cultural ancestry was being challenged by American culture I thought I was adept at identifying idisyncracies like the Ralph/Rafe one. And then I met a (rather famous) concertina player from the Geordie part of Pommy Land, who was touring Oz.

I was introduced to him and I said "I'm Rowan", pronouncing the "Row" as in in "row your boat" and the same as the "cow" part of "Moscow" as pronounced in most parts of the English-speaking world outside the US. He commented (kindly, I might add) that "Rowan", as a name coming from the Gaelic world where he lived, was more correctly pronounced with the "Row" as in "Having an argumentative row" and the same as the "cow" part of "Moscow" as pronounced in the US. BUt he subsequently pronounced it (in my hearing) the way I did. Nice man, as you'd expect of a concertina player.

I've since had Scots from much further north pronounce it both ways and it doesn't affect me much. either way; having been called Rowan, Roland, Robin, Robert, Brian, Warren and a few others I forget, I don't care so long as you don't call me late for dinner.

But I suspect RVW may have had different thoughts.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: fat B****rd
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 03:52 PM

Aferbet anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 04:21 PM

There's Ralph Wiggum, from the Simpsons... but I doubt if he's famous. His cat's breath smells like cat food.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 11:23 PM

Yesterday I had lunch with a woman who had taught English in Japan. She became very hot under the collar over the pronunciation of 'Hiroshima.' She said it is 'Hi-ROSH-i-ma' and wanted to know why the hell the world doesn't say it that way.

I wanted to tell her it was because the world has heard this pattern many times:

NakaMURa
MitsuBISHi
FujiYAma
WataNAbe
MatsuMOto (friends of mine)

In our language we follow patterns and try to use logic. If Hiroshima breaks the pattern, we don't know unless someone tells us.

However, conversation moved on to other topics before I could verbalize all that. She enjoyed being angry, anyhow.

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Rowan
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 12:19 AM

The same pattern you exemplified, leeneia, also applies in Oz. But I've only heard Hiroshima pronounced here with the accent on the second syllable, as specified by your "friend".

I suspect some people are 'deaf' to what they actually hear and only register something that is already filed in their brain. I have occasion to frequently introduce a person whose name is Naomi, pronounced with the accent on the first syllable; I'm told, but can't verify, that this is an English habit. I've lost count of the number of people who immediately then pronounce the name with the accent on the second syllable. And it really grates if they pronounce it with the lazy version of Ozspeak, so that even I hear it as "Nigh-OH-mi".

Sigh! Naomi, however, manages to accept such speakers with remarkably good grace.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 02:50 AM

Well, my dog Ralph insists it's ROWF!!

He's named after Ralph Cramden, so he's a bit different....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 03:57 AM

HiroSHIma is the way Americans say it - which doesn't necessarily equate with "the world". :)

Subject: RE: BS: Ralph/Raife
From: Gurney
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:25 PM

Lady Penelope, I think your name would be more properly pronounced
Pee...knee...low...pee, or Penny...lowpy.

Peeneelowpee would be best, as it lends itself more readily to limericks.


How about Michael? Mi chay ell. Not Mykal
Thomas       Tho mass/thom ass. Not Tomass, anyway.
Peter       Pet er. Not Peeter
Matthew      Matt hew. Not Mathew, unless spelled that way.
Luke         Lukky/luhkh. Not Loouk
Everyone's name has certain recognised pronunciations, the spelling notwithstanding. Ralph is just one with a specifically English pronunciation.