BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:17 PM

Now I've seen everything!!!
Lay off the sauce!!

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:27 PM

Dave, since every single person serving in the government is a person who came out of the ranks OF the people....how is it then NOT a government BY the people?

Does one stop being a "person" when one becomes a politician?

Hmmmm? (!) That would make for an interesting discussion, wouldn't it? LOL!

As long as you're set on picking nits, though, could you stop by and help Chongo out this weekend? He has some.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:17 PM

G from S asked,

'WE THE PEOPLE' ARE SUPPOSE TO Be the GOVERNMENT.....RIGHT??????

Uncle DaveO replied:

No, wrong.

To which G from S replied:

Did you read any further, oh bright one. 'Government OF, FOR, AND BY.

"Government OF" is a cognate of "management of a campaign". In this sense, you could say that an equestrian governs his horse.

"Government FOR" is a statement of the target of the benefits, that the object of government is to benefit the people.

"Government BY", however (despite Lincoln's great oratory, which is not the Constitution) is a misnomer. Under the Constitution, the United States is a republic, not a democracy, popular as that word is. The United States is not, never has been, and was never intended to be a democracy, where the people actually governed. "Democracy" is a form of governance appropriate to say a small town, where decisions are made at a town meeting, on vote of the actual citizens. It's not at all a practical form for (probably) even a county government, and certainly not a State.

"The government" refers to that set of chosen or elected officers and civil servants which creates and carries out the administration of the laws, in order to govern the people. As one might say that the CEO, CFO, board of directors, and officers of a business provide (as opposed to "are") the management "of" a business, "for" the stockholders, at least in theory.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 11:35 PM

"virtues of freedom are worth fighting for"

Ah - but freedom for WHOM? ... :-)

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 11:21 PM

Lying through her teeth:

"Barack Obama had supported cutting off funding for our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and I see the Blue Star Moms out there also. My heart is with you also knowing that when an action like that is taken it makes us question what is the mission there? What is the intention there?" Palin said, "Someone who would desire to be the commander in chief and yet would be willing to cut off funding for the troops with a vote that he took. No John McCain understands the mission. He understands that the virtues of freedom are worth fighting for."

(A quote from a Palin speech)

Barack Obama voted to fund troops in Iraq and Afghanistan at least ten times, before voting against once because there was no date for withdrawal from Iraq in the legislation.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 10:55 PM

"For lies to be believed all that is necessary is:

1. Issue them from an official and authoritative "source"
2. Repeat them over and over again in the national media
3. ...and soon they are gospel, common knowledge, believed by most people
4. MOST important of all...the lies of ommission. Simply don't talk about it, and people won't know about it, will they? They can't know what they don't hear."

Really mate! You should have attributed your source - Goebbels! :-P


And Remember "Tall Jan is Malicious!" .... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 08:27 PM

Olbermann and Obama's counter-attack against vote suppression.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:32 PM

From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:18 PM

G from S asked,

'WE THE PEOPLE' ARE SUPPOSE TO Be the GOVERNMENT.....RIGHT??????

No, wrong.

Did you read any further, oh bright one. 'Government OF, FOR, AND BY.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:18 PM

G from S asked,

'WE THE PEOPLE' ARE SUPPOSE TO Be the GOVERNMENT.....RIGHT??????

No, wrong. We, the people, are supposed to be the sources of the power of government. "The government" in a republic is a set of people who are elected to use their abilities and judgment in our behalf. In modern times, with modern communications, it has gradually become more possible (and therefore thought by some to be more desirable) for those representatives to be guided by the shifting desires of the electorate.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 10:40 AM

There are no absolutes. Even absolute liars tell the truth sometimes, and truth tellers... are known to hedge their bets.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 10:27 AM

All my life I watched the best liar or best liars win the elections, build the most expensive churches or become the most lauded pundits. Only the voice of humor or satire seemed to be telling the truth to me.

Slowly I discovered the best truth tellers. Many of them had to keep their head down in this small town mass society. Slowly I saw their numbers grow. With each Purlitzer and Nobel Prize I grew more hopeful that the most deserving would be heard, heeded and respected.

Then a dark age spread across my country as hope and enlightenment grew darker with each passing war of attrition and despondency.

The short term heros are invariably the best liars. The greatest truth tellers give hope to long run victories and solutions. We are still asked to choose between great liars of powerful emotions and schemes and the meek truth tellers.

There is a place for both the short term liar and the long term truth teller but the greatest truth tellers are the only heros that earn my respect. Some do it with science and some do it with art.
Some do it naturally because they have a good heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 02:10 AM

Words...I used to believe in words.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:37 AM

A tradition o flies about vote fraud as a mechanism for suppressing votes.

These particulars lies come from McCain, and earlier, from the Bush campaigns.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: CamiSu
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 12:28 AM

Perhaps I am not reading carefully enough, but I have not seen the other danger of paying attention to polls. If you think that your person is doing so well that you don't need to vote, you and everyone else stays home. Dangerous!

BTW, have you heard that one Irish bookie is already paying out on an Obama win? Interesting thought.

CamiSu

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 12:04 AM

Jesse Jackson Jr, Steven Rosenfeld, Digby and Marc Ambinder on the GOP's race-baiting and smear job against ACORN's massive registration efforts.

Jesse Jackson Jr. from the Huffington Post: What the Republicans are Really Afraid of"

"The Republicans tried to make fun of Barack Obama as a community organizer at their national convention in Minnesota, which I guess just goes to show how little Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert have to fear from right-wing "humor."

Now they've gone further: Now they're attacking ACORN (Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now), one of the strongest, hardest-working, most dedicated community organizations in both Chicago and in 40 states across the U.S.

Why are they after ACORN? Well, I'm sure they're going to come up with a lot of "reasons" in the coming days. But the real reason is obvious: Because ACORN, along with Project Vote, just announced that they had successfully registered 1.3 million poor people this year.

Get that? 1.3 million, including 148,000 in Pennsylvania, 152,000 in Florida, 217,000 in Michigan, and 238,000 in Ohio. No wonder the GOP is up in arms. They're scared of too many poor people preparing to vote this year.

In the last week, the right wing has tried to blame ACORN for the collapse of the globalized financial system--yeah, that's a viable argument. They got excited because they found a some possible fake registration forms in Florida, which predictably led to a bunch of whining from the party that stole an entire presidency from Al Gore by blocking vote counts, mischaracterizing voters as felons, refusing to recount entire counties, sending congressional staff down to riot and intimidate volunteer vote-counters, and topped it all off with the most partisan, badly-reasoned, illegitimate Supreme Court decision since Plessy v. Ferguson. A decision so illegitimate that the partisan majority, to their eternal discredit, themselves damned by writing into their own decision that it should never be used as a precedent for any other court ruling.

This week, the right-wing is hyperventilating because apparently Democratic election officials raided an ACORN office after they found the names of some Dallas Cowboy football players among the 80,000 new registration forms that ACORN helped to get done in Nevada.

Obviously it's not right for a fake "Tony Romo" to be registered in Las Vegas, so someone was probably playing a not-very-funny joke, or trying to pad their registration numbers to get paid a little more money rather than doing the hard work in the hot Nevada sun that helping voters to register requires, or maybe a provocateur was setting up ACORN for some bad press. But remember the basic point--it's not voter fraud unless someone shows up at the voting booth on election day and tries to pass himself off as "Tony Romo." And who would try to do that? No one is going to be that stupid.

The truth is, the main voter fraud efforts going on in my lifetime--and I was born the week of the Selma march in 1965--have been repeated conservative attempts, far too many of them successful, to demonize and suppress the vote of African-Americans and Latinos in election after election, a history for which former RNC Chair Ken Mehlman actually apologized a few years ago, while promising the GOP would no longer engage in such tactics.

So they stole an election from Gore, made the Department of Justice into an outfit for partisan hacks, allowed New Orleans to drown, lied us into a war against a country that did not threaten us, replaced science with bad ideology, indebted our grandchildren to China, and turned our banking system into a deregulated casino--but thank the Lord that "Tony Romo" will not be able to sneak in to vote in Nevada next month.

This time, there are already fake flyers mysteriously appearing on the streets of minority areas of Philadelphia, illegal voter purges in numerous states, "caging" tricks, threats of using home foreclosure lists to strike voters from the rolls, and "black box" electronic vote-counting systems under the control of private companies--and we haven't even gotten to election day!..."

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:11 PM

typo in the other one...Joe!..Joe, get it!! Zap it now!!!

And 99% of all forest fires are caused by trees.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:09 PM

..and 99% of all forest fires are caused by tree.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 10:32 PM

FOX poll after last debate:
McCain 87%
Obama12%

"The election is going to be within 1 percentage point"
Fox pundits



True, if 10 million votes are sucessfully challenged by the Republican party and newly appointed Federal attorneys and courts.

Remember if you don't vote, the judges will have nothing to adjudicate.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 10:03 PM

Do what your heart of hearts, recognizes to do....just one of us at a time...beats being controlled by fear, greed,pride,lust for everything you don't need etc. etc...At this time in our lives, we have the gift of having experiencing what is true, and isn't..what works and doesn't. Why pursue things while waiting for a good reason to stop? We already have one! We know! Share your wisdom. Might as well....what are we waiting for? This is what THEY fear!!
And you younger pups, True wisdom begins when you hear some one wiser than you, and you listen to them, the way you wish someone would listen to you.

Love, and it will create your circumstances!..When loving comes to giving, some people stop at nothing!*






*Used by permission by me. From original script. Copyright 1991

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 09:48 PM

Well, that's kinda difficult, though I think I know what you're alluding to when you say that.

But every time I buy gas or pay the utility bill or go shopping and use my money and pay the sale tax and all the other hidden taxes that are built into everything, I am participating, whether I like it or not.

What I do is I simply try to live a good life anyway, regardless of the fact that the machinery of the ruling $ySStem is inescapable. Millions of other people are trying to do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:17 PM

Then, don't participate in anything 'they' are.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:07 PM

"We the People are supposed to BE the government."

Yes, we're supposed to be. But we aren't. Anyone who thinks we are probably still believes in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. ;-)

The government is a consortium of the richest people in the country, working through corporate executives, bankers, and a relatively tight group of highly wealthy and old family lines who are essentially the same group of people who were running things for the last few thousand years. They used to control the monarchies, churches, goldsmithies, and the larger guilds. Now they control what remains of those or what those have mutated into, plus they control the media, the military-industrial complex and the science and medical communities.

Their control is not a conspiracy, it's merely a natural coming together of people who share common financial/power interests and who wish to maintain and improve their already very favorable position at the top of the pyramid (just above the All-Seeing Eye of domestic surveillance...find it on your dollar bill). They compete ruthlessly against each other all the time, those people, but most of all they work toward a commonly shared policy that maintains their privileged position, which is at the top of the "food chain". They are predators in expensive suits.

It is they who run the government. The government is run by a privileged elite of millionaires and billionaires.

The political parties are their handmaidens....or their whores, to put it less politely.

Genuine efforts were made in a number of past social revolutions to put the government in the hands of the ordinary people, and this resulted in some definite improvements in the lot of the common man, it resulted in some very progressive documents like the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights, but it would be the height of naivete to think that we the People in the 21st century are in control of our governments.

To the contrary, we are at their mercy. They tell us what we can do and not do...we obey or we suffer the consequences. Try opposing your government in any significant way on behalf of the rights of "the people" and you will find out very fast just how much you are at its mercy.

You cannot change this situation through the existing political parties, because they are among the foremost tools of the ruling $ySStem itself, and it's a closed circle.

It's like the One Ring in Lord of the Rings. You cannot turn it to a positive purpose, because it wasn't made with that in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 06:30 PM

Now, Now Boys!..You're quibbling over symptoms of another problem, and that,..is of trust...Why??..Because WE ALL KNOW, that politicians, government, and the media have lied to us all about important things, a well informed public should know, being as 'WE THE PEOPLE' ARE SUPPOSE TO Be the GOVERNMENT.....RIGHT??????

Perhaps, if more time was spent on morals and integrity, instead of offering manipulated 'solutions' to problems resulting in the wake of other lapses of integrity, and moral conduct, then liars could be so very easily detected, and not paid attention to. Nor would we feel helpless to clear our own lapses, so the bullshitters couldn't have a hold, on your weaknesses...which, when they do, empowers their power over you.

Some day, God willing, Honesty, morality, integrity, compassion will be the currency of mankind

O.K....I'm done

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:58 PM

I'm tempted to reverse myself. Women have that privilege, I've been told, so why not men in this age of equal rights?

It occurs to me that, as a stock investor, or other kind of investor, or even a businessman whose line of business is prospectively to be benefited by one set of candidates, or threatened by another, I might want to hedge my bets depending on what I came to see as the likely result of the election.

The point is, adjusting one's choice of voting is not the only possible use of poll advice.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:02 PM

Accurate poll numbers ~ or, at least, poll numbers whose results can be interpreted or adjusted to bear some resemblance to reality ~ are useful to candidiates on both sides, since they gain knowledge upon which to base decisions about where and how to spend their resources.

Now, exit polls on Election Day, that's another matter. I absolultely support a total gag order on any hint af actual voting results or "trends" before the last polling places close in the westernmost time zone. But that's not the same thing as these post-debate polls under discussion here, and other research conducted during the long drawn-out campaign season.

I do agree that it is extremely unfortunate if and when individuals base their vote upon who they perceive as likely to win, instead of upon who represents one's own interests best among the candidates.

It's one thing for "vested interests" to study the likely winners and adjust their corporate-giving policies accordingly ~ that's probably unavoidable ~ but there's no reason for private individuals to follow that same mindset. Private individuals are not going to be in a position of influence in the same way as giant corporations and their lobbyists.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:49 PM

As a matter of personal druthers, I like the idea of prohibiting the publishing of political polls during election campaigns. (Note the first six words.)

But I doubt that it would fly, legislatively, and I further doubt that it would fly Constitutionally. And you know that it would go before the Extreme Court, and that it would be struck down.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:37 PM

"Every organization of any meaningful size would chime in against your suggestion."

Yeah, I just bet they would. (grin) That and several of my other suggestions too. They know what side their bread is buttered on.

I am not suggesting prohibiting polling, per se. I am suggesting that the results of those polls during an election campaign be available privately to only the politicians themselves and not be made open public knowledge all the time in the media. That way it wouldn't be a means of manipulating the public in terms of who they decide to cast a vote for...or whether they decide to even bother doing so.

The rest of the time...have all the published polls you want. No problem. Just don't do it during an election campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:40 PM

I am not pretending anything. If you were to field a motion to prohibit polling you would be flying square into the teeth of the First Amendment, and it is completely disingenuous to tie all your other concerns about our antiquated methods to that uissue. Every organization of any meaningful size would chime in against your suggestion.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:28 PM

"polls are a free exercise of dialogue between people"

Oh, please. You are pretending to be defending free speech, Amos, but what you are really defending is entrenched media and party power structures and blind, unquestioning, habitual behaviour. You are defending sheer ruthless pragmatism, devoid of moral principle.

I think that if your founding fathers had envisioned what would happen in the future they would have written in your Constitution that there shall be no public polling results published in regards to elections as it would unduly prejudice the minds of the public and thereby interfere with the democratic process.

They were quite concerned with the "pure metaphysical abstract view" of society and they attempted as best they could to create a document with that in mind...but they just had no idea how badly things could get perverted over a couple of centuries of social and political and technological development.

Your Constitution is probably no longer adequate to deal with what is happening now, because it was worded in the terms of a bygone age when people thought differently and were dealing with a very different situation.

This continues to be a problem. In a way, it's a bit comparable to the problem that fundamentalist Christians get themselves into when they give modern and literal interpretation to stuff that was written several thousand years ago in a completely different social order.

The words and intentions become badly misconstrued. The original ideals and intentions fall by the wayside.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:09 PM

LH:

Don't be intentionally naif. WHile your argument makes sense in a pure metaphysical abstract view, in the matter of the real-life clumps and tides of humanoid thought that passes for the democratic process, polls are a free exercise of dialogue between people. It might theoretically make the elections "purer" if the polls were not allowed, but it would undercut major, serious primary principals to makie such a rule, notably the consitutional guarantee of free association and free speech.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:05 PM

"The idea that polls should not be allowed is ridiculous."

Is that right? Well, tough. Your entire party-based system is considerably more ridiculous.

I see nothing useful whatsoever that polls contribute to an election process, I see many ways that they damage it.

They are simply an attempt to sway large numbers of people into abandoning a ticket (whichever one) in a lemming-like rush to avoid voting for "a loser". This is a form of manipulation that should not be brought into an election process.

Politicians would undoubtedly continue to privately conduct polls if the polls were not published in the media, because it would give them an ongoing guide as to whether they needed to change their campaigning tactics or their platform. That would be fine with me, but I see no reason why polling results should be publicly announced day by day in the media. It is an attempt to influence people and it has no legitimate justification, because it's not based on any legitimate policy or position.

What the hell does MY choice of how to vote or YOUR choice of how to vote have to do with how a whole bunch of other people say they are going to vote TODAY? It doesn't. And it shouldn't. We should not cast our votes under the influence of polls, we should cast our votes purely on the basis of the candidates and the policies we believe in (if we can find any such...). Let the politicians worry about the polls, let they conduct them quietly and privately without media coverage, let them look privately at the results, adjust their own campaigns accordingly, leave the public alone to make up their own minds who to vote for without this kind of daily crass manipulation through announcing polling results.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 02:35 PM

Hell, I have posted all the polls I could find, my dear dweebs. I generally look for polls datra at Real Clear POlitics, because they aggregate all the polls they find.

The idea that polls should not be allowed is ridiculous. The problem is all polls should include their selection process and their margins of error. This does not often happen.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 01:49 PM

The general rule in political propaganda is only to talk about polls that favor one's own candidate, isn't it? ;-)

(and such favorable polls can always be secured if one simply goes to the proper "source")

Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. But it seems to work.

That's why I say there should be no polling allowed, period. It should be illegal to publish polling results in the media, because they in themselves artificially manipulate and alter the process...which is really just what they are intended to do by those who publish them.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 01:40 PM

No, I wasn't being sarcastic....this time....I only saw a couple of polls, I knew Amos would post more(only if they were pro Obama, though)...but no,.... thank Amos

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:24 PM

Until all the polls flopped in 1948 (predicting a Dewey win over Truman) the classic poll disaster was when th then-famous Roger Babson, of the Literary Digest, did an extensive poll that showed Landon would bear Roosevelt. Problem was that it was done by telephone, a gadget that only the well-off possessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 05:14 PM

I assumed that GfS was being ironical or sarcastic (rolling his eyes) when he said that, PoppaGator. Perhaps I am wrong, but that's what I assumed.

It is clear that the so-called polls conducted by most media outlets simply end up reflecting the views and presentation of the network itself, since those views will be typical of the majority of people who bothered to watch that network. People tune into what they agree with, not what they despise. That way they will be sure to have all their favorite ideas reinforced.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 05:08 PM

I abstract from your interesting remarks, PG, that one of the places lies comes from is cohorts of mutually-reinforcing, self-selecting "like thinkers", which points to the interesting human fallibility of finding comfort in numbers in order to safely borrowed canned thought from the plurality of individuals in the cluster who have done some or all of the work for one, thus saving the thinking effort. In short, one source of lies is mass belief.

It raises the question as to why thought seems painful to folks, such that htey prefer low-quality answers instead of engaging in their own efforts.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 04:08 PM

The various TV networks conduct polls of their viewers, which of course consitute basically self-selected populations.

I watched the first of the three debates on PBS, the second on CNN, and last night on MSNBC. While the broadcast of the debate itself is identical on each network, the accompanying commentary is of course different in each case, giving each core-viewer audience pretty much what they expect. I would characterize the PBS audience as educated-elite, the MSNBC audience as left-leaning cynical, and CNN as about as mainstream as possible.

When, shortly after the debate, the audience is offered the opportunity to send a text-message vote or to log on to the network's website to express an opnion, it's not hard to predict how the results may or may not be skewed. However, despite the basic distinctions between the general characteristics of each audience-group, they are all TV audiences and therefore, HUGE numbers of people representing at least a LITTLE diversity.

In the first hour or so after the debate, MSNBC was reporting the results of various different polls, not only their own, and pointed out more than once that "even the FOX News poll" showed Obama as the winner. That must have been a different poll than the "Fox News text message poll" in which McCain got such overwhelming support ~ or maybe it was just an earlier count of that poll.

It should be no surprise that Fox News viewers would produce the most right-wing-favorable results. The early results of a Fox poll, any Fox poll, producing results favroable to Obama ~ THAT'S the anomaly!

I can't imagine how Guest from Sanity can assert, in relation to the FOX-viewer demographic, that "That'd be a pretty random cross-section of the population." I couldn't imagine any media outlet whose loyal viewers are less representative of a cross-section of the public than the rabidly neoconservative Fox.

My nominees for the most inclusive and therefore least biased of the post-debate polls would be:
AOL
CNN
the CBS poll of "undecideds only" (however they're able to identify and isolate undecided voters).

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 03:39 PM

Yeah, as far as they are concerned people in the other parties (outside of the big 2) don't even exist. They aren't "newsworthy". Well, that's a pretty neat way of maintaining the duopoly, isn't it?

Kucinich wasn't "newsworthy" enough to pay much attention to either, and so he was blocked from participating in the later debates. Why? Because his presence and his policies would have seriously embarrassed the $ySStem-sanctioned homogenized candidates who were allowed into those debates. Anyone who they don't decide is "newsworthy" gets blacked out of the dialogue...except on the Internet. The Internet is the one chink in the propaganda $ySStem's armour. I wonder what they will do about that? At this point the Internet allows free expression, genuine free speech. TV certainly does not, because the programming is controlled and orchestrated from the top down. You might get to speak freely and honestly once or twice about some of the real issues...but that's about it. Then you won't get on the air anymore.

For lies to be believed all that is necessary is:

1. Issue them from an official and authoritative "source"
2. Repeat them over and over again in the national media
3. ...and soon they are gospel, common knowledge, believed by most people
4. MOST important of all...the lies of ommission. Simply don't talk about it, and people won't know about it, will they? They can't know what they don't hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 01:42 PM

Agreed, with Little Hawk. Let's not forget that ALL of these media 'news' outlets are big corporations, who have a vested interest, in limiting our choices, and completely NOT covering the other parties.
Hold on to your hats.........Thanks Amos, for posting the other polls....*wink*

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 11:30 AM

I notice that media polls seem to mysteriously mirror the attitudes of whichever media are doing the poll. LOL!

This is true of Fox. It's true of CNN. It seems to be true of most of them. Their polling results usually match their desires.

So how the hell do they conduct these phony "polls"? Do they go around the newsroom and ask their staff? Or do they call up a pre-selected list of numbers of people who love watching their show?

It's pathetic. Things would be better if we had no polls. The polls are just more propaganda to get people to run around like a herd of lemmings and vote the way some special interest group wants them to.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:25 AM

A summary of post-debate polls:

The CNN focus group voted 15 to 10 in favor of Obama over McCain.

A CNN poll of viewers (40% Democrats, 30% Republicans) voted Obama the winner 58% to 31%. McCain's unfavorable ratings rose during the debate. Obama was rated more likable.

Independents in the CNN poll rated Obama the winner 57% to 31%

MediaCurves.com reported a poll of 1402 people. Republicans thought McCain won 70% to 18% with 12% undecided. Democrats thought Obama won with 81% to McCain's 10% with 9% undecided. Independents thought Obama won 60% to 30% with 10% undecided

Fox News' unscientific poll (web based) with 46,341 responders: Obama 67%, McCain 33%.
(This result makes me wonder whether Obama supporters are flooding the site.)6:30 a.m. update: I could not find a poll update at the Fox web site. I'll keep looking.

AOL's unscientific poll (web based) with 376,408 responders showed Obama winning the debate 48% to McCain's 46%.

MSNBC's unscientific poll (web based) showed Obama winning 83.9% to McCain's 12.9%.

An MSNBC focus group in Kansas City voted that Obama won the debate 20 to 7.

A CBS rationally representative sample of 638 debate watchers who identified themselves as uncommitted indicated that 53% thought Obama won the debate, 22% thought McCain won the debate, and 25% judged the debate a tie.

An unscientific (web based) CBS poll showed Obama winning 84.7% to McCain's 13.06% with 2.06% judging the debate a a tie.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:14 AM

Fox's effort to preempt the "winner's circle" is kinde of pathetic.

The actual survey results tend to give it to Obama. In fact we should make a notre that Fox is one of th eplaces lies come from. MediaCurves independents: Obama 60, McCain 30.

CNN poll from the TV: Obama 58, McCain 31.

CBS poll of undecideds:

Who won the debate?

Obama 53
McCain 22

Lies also seem to come from bitter people, I woudl suggest.

SOMething about all that suppressed rage makes for an anti-turth filter.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 05:26 AM

From: John O'L
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 04:44 AM

Fox News 'text message' vote has McCain the winner of the debate, 87to 11%.

That'd be a pretty random cross-section of the population. What about the one-eyed one-legged bald necrophyliacs? What did they think?

Ask Amos!

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: John O'L
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 04:44 AM

Fox News 'text message' vote has McCain the winner of the debate, 87to 11%.

That'd be a pretty random cross-section of the population. What about the one-eyed one-legged bald necrophyliacs? What did they think?

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 04:26 AM

From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 01:22 AM

In tonight's debates, a number of direct lies came out of John McCain's mouth.

Fox News 'text message' vote has McCain the winner of the debate, 87to 11%. Myself, who has not liked either candidate(an understatement) thought Obama did pretty well, when the healthcare subject was on the table, though some may disagree,..but on the overall he was like a boxer on the ropes the rest of the time. I think he may have been damaged tonight..though I'm sure you may disagree. Also. I think McCain could have done far better, had hepressed some of his points, to closing. Toward the end, I thought he just pooped out.....but I think he 'won' the debate..I think that seems to be supported by most the polls(MSNBC excluded, I didn't check theirs)...Do I think it will translate into actual votes??...Well, it shouldn't, if Obama supporters were more sure, and independants, bought into it. McCain impressed me as just being too old, and worn out, though. <<<<<<<<< I think that is a fair assessment, of the debate, as a whole.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 01:22 AM

In tonight's debates, a number of direct lies came out of John McCain's mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 11:37 PM

Obvioulsy, G, you are built upside down and have your vectors out by 180 degrees.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 11:34 PM

Hey, why have cradle to grave socialism when you can have cradle to grave graft, poverty, ghettos, gated communities, gang wars, and corruption, right? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 09:02 PM

Jeez!...Speaking of lies, the 'debates'(?) are on..in a few..believe it or not

That was the 24th pster, from the third to the last poster, before the 5th one, before my other post, which replied four up from the lady with the pimple, who was commenting on cradle to grave socialism, where our efficient government changes your diaper, then uses it to wipe you nose!

Mommie-e-e-e!!!!!