BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words

Subject: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 11:49 AM

In English, there's loads of words which include the combinations of:

'ph' as in 'elephant', 'telephone' etc

'th' as in 'this', 'moth' etc

'sh' as in 'shop', 'fish' etc

plus other combinations of consonants with th letter 'h'

For native speakers, its easy to know how these are pronounced, but less easy for foreigners.

I've heard several of these mispronunciations, 'uffolstery', 'shithed'

more?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 11:55 AM

Of course, the "nightmare" combination of letters for foreigners is "ough".

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 11:57 AM

TH as in "then" and "thorn"

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 12:15 PM

This week a computer tech earnestly informed me that the "grap hics" capabilities of a certain operating system are better than that of another.

And he is a native-born Amurrican.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 12:20 PM

This thistle.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 12:23 PM

The jury is still out on Dishevelled.

I lived in Eltham (ell..tam)some posh folk called it Elth...am. Mind you, the genteel folk of Burpham seem always to put the ph together to make 'ff', while in devon Topsham as Top...sam or Top...sham seems to divide the populace equally.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 01:28 PM

There are other combos which cause similar confusions, just to widen this discussion of anomalies of English spelling & pronunciation a bit. I have known several educated people who had never realised that 'misled' is the past tense of 'mislead' ['to lead astray'], and pronounced it something like 'my zuld'].

And some word processors with obscenity checks refuse to print the name of the town Scunthorpe. (I am told that in the US graduates of the Notre Dame University have trouble with their CV's, as 'Dame' is held to be non-PC. Is that true or a folktale?)

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: jeffp
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 01:50 PM

I'm pretty sure that's a folktale. Notre Dame is pretty well known and respected. Of course, there's also the one in Baltimore.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 01:55 PM

Reminds me of the sad story of the Young Lad who came to London to improve his Englis , particualrly all the words with different pronunciation and same spelling .
He gave up and went home in despair when he saw , outside a Theatre in the West End " CATS !! Pronounced Success"

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 01:59 PM

Of course, using impenetrable English phonetics, "fish" can be spelled "ghoti"






think; cough, women, nation

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 02:05 PM

The Spanish and some other Latin root languages have simplified ph words that come from the Greek; philosophy becomes filosophie, elephant is elefante, etc.
Psaltery becomes Saltario, etc.
In many German words, the h in th is silent, e. g., thaler is pronounced taler.

Non-English speakers are stuck with learning native English usages of these words from friends and teachers- there are some rather variable rules, but they are not taught in ESL (English as a Second Language) courses. The origins of these words and their evolution are given in the complete Oxford English Dictionary, but most of us learn them by ear.

Thorn, them, thee, come from Old English, old German, Norse, etc.; many non-English will silence the h, thus torn, tem (dem), tee-

As the King said. "'Tis a puzzlement" ("The King and I").

Proper names of people and places are 'a whole nother ball game'.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 02:39 PM

I've never heard of the graduates of the University of Notre Dame du Lac (a/k/a "Notre Dame") being descriminated against because of PC. There are hundreds of "Notre Dame" high schools and colleges around the world -- 'twouldn't be sensible.

The problem with English is that it isn't a "pure" language -- it contains words from languages from Andalusian to Zulu. This causes spell checkers (but not decent dictionaries) to have fits and it gets worse with job-related jargon, slang, and lingua fraca.

"Just a skosh more makli, mama-san, and I'll deedee out of here" as we used to say in Korea.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 02:55 PM

I didn't say Notre-Dame graduates were discriminated against by people: only by word-processors programmed to block non-pc language — including the word "dame". But, as I said, I always suspected this of being a sort of Urban Myth.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 03:13 PM

Ghoti can never ever be fish. Gh would have to be at the end , rather than the beginning, and ti would have to be medial. TYhis that famoue irishman GB Shaw's joke.....he wanted to simplify English orthography, little realising that its morpho phonemic nature allow us to see the difference between our many hohophones. Carol Chomsky declared english orthography to be just about the optimum means of deriving meaning ( rather than sound) from writing. |Losing the 'history' of the word by systemysing spelling is dealt with in the following cautionary tale

A proposed plan to gradually update the way to spell things in english. In Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling,so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all. Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y"and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez -- tu riplais"ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli. Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: HuwG
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 03:30 PM

Underneath a hanging bough, sat a man with a hacking cough.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 03:37 PM

So, is that "Noter Daaame" or "Notruh Dom"??

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 03:50 PM

More consonents to every vowel is what we need, as in Polish, Klingon, and my name.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 04:07 PM

I'm sure that 'dame' would not be blocked by spell-checkers in the UK; Dame Edith Evans and others would lose the 'onorific.
In any case, these systems can be programmed to add or delete a particular word.

Joe, I have heard 'Notruh Dom' only from those trying to be pedantic. Maybe different back East, I dunno.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Rowan
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 05:51 PM

I do like GB Shaw's joke.....he wanted to simplify English orthography, little realising that its morpho phonemic nature allow us to see the difference between our many hohophones.

It's not yet the end of October but I wondered if Santa really uses hohophones.

I have heard 'Notruh Dom' only from those trying to be pedantic. Maybe different back East, I dunno.

Before I learned American pronunciation, the only experience I had with this name was on the outsides of various churches in Melbourne, where it was pronounced the way we were taught in French class; Notr Darm. But I guess we're almost as far "back East" as you can go.

And I'd written this before I realised that many from the US pronounce "Dom" the way we'd pronounce "Darm"; "Dom" has a very short "o" here.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 05:59 PM

Why is the letter L in words pronounced as a W by the "W People" - footbaw, horribaw etc? I wonder how they would pronounce trawler

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 08:58 PM

Thank you Rowan, that'll teach me to proof read. Mind you, Im quite proud ti have invented ( albeit inadvertently) Santa's patent communication device.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 09:31 PM

The correct name of the dominant university in South Bend, Indiana, is pronounced as the French would -- the founder, after all, was of French extraction and the religious order there is abbreviated CSC -- for "Congregation de la Sacre Coeur" or however the French spell it.

But it's bastardized into "The University of Notre Dame du Lac", and there is an ongoing discussion among pedants there that it SHOULD be "des Lacs" since there are TWO lakes and not one and so...and so I ignore it and have another beer.

But, of course, everyone just calls it "ND" or "Noter Dame".

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Gurney
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 01:45 AM

A couple of years ago, a member posted a treatise on the uses of 'ough' in English words. It was by a Dutch scholar, I think!
I'm sure Tunesmith among others would find it interesting, if anyone can remember the thread header.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 04:20 AM

In our church choir, we've had a problem with multiple sibilants at the end of phrases, and it sounds like a snakes' beer party, or something.

I've started replacing final "s" sounds with "th," so now I know I'm not the guilty one.

Said Joe, lithpingly

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 06:05 AM

Phenolphthalein is the acid test.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 06:33 AM

Is that also a cunning joke, since it is used for testing whether things are acidic?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 07:05 AM

As far as I am aware, Feenolf thaleen (NB - 'eth', not 'thorn' )is used,

in volumetric analysis, to determine the alkalinity, rather than the acidity, of a material in solution ?

I am led to believe by my daughter (a qualified Chemist) that Feenolf thaleen is a jet-propelled shit-quick (laxative).

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 08:08 AM

"As far as I am aware, Feenolf thaleen ..."

I would have gone for Fee-nol-thar-lin, myself, but that lin/leen could easily be a Northern UK accent thingy.

You are right about the alkalinity, but no-one talks about something being the alkaline test!

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 08:32 AM

Similar to 'misled' aka 'mizzled' above, there's the past participle [who thinks up these convoluted names in grammar?] of the verb, 'to mope'.

'Moped' ? [aka Lambretta?]

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 08:35 AM

Then there is the lung disease -

PHTHISIS.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 08:51 AM

Maybe urban leg end that the painter Turner would sometimes spell his name as 'Ptholognyrrh'!

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 08:54 AM

An anonymous pronunciation poem, only slightly drifty... try reading this one out loud!

I take it you already know
Of tough and bough and cough and dough?
Others may stumble, but not you,
On hiccough, thorough, lough and through?
Well done! And now you wish, perhaps,
To learn of less familiar traps?
Beware of heard, a dreadful word
That looks like beard and and sounds like bird,
And dead: it's said like bed, not bead --
For goodness sake don't call it 'deed'!
Watch out for meat and great and threat
(They rhyme with suite and straight and debt).
A moth is not a moth in mother,
Nor both in bother, broth in brother,
And here is not a match for there
Nor dear and fear for bear and pear;
And then there's dose and rose and lose --
Just look them up -- and goose and choose,
And cork and work and card and ward,
And font and front and word and sword,
And do and go and thwart and cart --
Come, come, I've hardly made a start!
A dreadful language? Man alive!
I'd mastered it when I was five!

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 09:22 AM

In "standard English", the diphthong (!) "ph" is pronounced as in "f" :

the diphthong "sh" as in "shit" - sorry - couldn't resist that one ; and "th" as either 'eth' or 'thorn', as the case might be.

I think I have read, somewhere, that in Classical Greek (Katharevousa) it is believed that "ph" might have been pronounced "puh huh" ; "sh" as "suh huh" ; and "th" as "tuh huh".

This, I think, might beg the question as to why Greek has one character for "ph" (phi) ; one for "th" (theta).

Can anyone enlighten me further, please ?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 10:02 AM

'...................phings ain't wot dey used to be.....?'

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 10:07 AM

In addition to the 'soft' th as in thin (thorn)
and the 'hard' th as in then (eth)
there is also th as in weather which is neither one nor t'other.

Phlegm - now there's a proper word ;-}

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 10:07 AM

Bryn, they are digraphs, not dipththongs, which are compound vowels.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 10:21 AM

Sminky, I don't hear a difference between the "th" in "then" and the "th" in "weather".

This is in Midwest General American. It may be different in the dialect you speak.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 10:53 AM

This is true, TtC.

Who led the Pedants' Revolt ?

Which Tyler.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 11:06 AM

LOL!!

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 11:58 AM

I don't hear a difference between the "th" in "then" and the "th" in "weather".

Dave - if you say then slowly, you'll notice you're actually saying dthen (notice that your tongue starts behind your top front teeth).

It's different from thin where the tongue starts between the front teeth.

However you don't pronounce it weadther (or I presume you don't!).

Maybe it's me 8-)

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 01:05 PM

tin
tan
wedder
'y not?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 02:58 PM

Sminky, after much cogitation and trial-muttering to myself, I have to deny (as to myself, at least) your premise as to "dthen".   There are probably a very few circumstances in which that little turn before "th" occurs, but far from normally.

After a little silence, and with a fresh breath at the beginning of a new sentence, there is sometimes a tiny puff of air preceding "then" to begin a sentence, which might answer to your "d". Sometimes, I say. I haven't identified any other circumstances, although there may be some.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 05:33 AM

Dave - the 'voiced dental fricative' (hard) th usually occurs at the start of a word (the, this, that, then).

The 'voiceless dental fricative' (soft) th can occur at the start (thick, thin) or end (myth, path), or very occasionally middle (methinks).

I still maintain that the th in eg weather, father is different from both.

Maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Jos
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 05:52 AM

I've not heard 'misled' pronounced 'mizzled', but I have noticed 'implement' becoming 'impulment' and 'diplomat' turning into 'dipplemat' - and I blame George W. B. for the ubiquitous 'nucular'.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 08:15 AM

And thanks to The Bill, we now have burgawry instead of burglary! I had an interesting conversation with someone who does voiceovers and talking book recordings, who said that "natural English" is starting to be used for that formerly known as received pronounciation, or what the oiks and lefty pretend working class as "posh"

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Tootler
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 08:35 PM

some word processors with obscenity checks refuse to print the name of the town Scunthorpe.

This reminded me of a website devoted to British Birds a few years back being blocked by an obscenity checker because it had a page devoted to Tits - Blue Tit, Coal Tit and - horror of horrors - Great Tit!

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 08:52 PM

There is the American robin (a thrush) whose name is Turdus migratorius.

I have used several spell-checkers and have never seen proper names or technical words of this kind blocked. Spelling questioned, but not blocked. I doubt that such exist although a school, etc., may program them to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 08:33 AM

We wil be dining in an Argentine restaurant this evening, where thank goodness they speak Spanish with a BA accent which is perfectly understandable - no hideous th th th th th!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: melodeonboy
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 08:45 AM

"he wanted to simplify English orthography, little realising that its morpho phonemic nature allow us to see the difference between our many hohophones."

Am I to assume, TtC, that a hohophone is a homophone with a sense of humour? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 08:55 AM

"Hallo, my name's Jack Chumley", said Jack Cholmondeley.

"And mine's James Fanshaw", said James Featherstonehaugh.

Good old English!