BS: £800 fine for low school attendance

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Smedley
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:11 AM

Sorry, Ruth, I must have overlooked those points. All of that seems reasonable.

Though I still think fining & causing such a fuss is an over-reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:12 AM

If it was a week or two I would agree as well, Smedley (Shock, horror, gasp!) but, taken from the article linked to -

The court heard her son had an 80% attendance rate at Bideford College between February 9 and June 26 last year.

80% attendance is somewhat more than taking him on holiday for a week or two. Assuming 20 weeks for the period in question it looks like he was missing for 16 of them:-(

Not judging either way but thought I had better put it in context!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:27 AM

No, that would be 80% non-attendance. He was missing for 4 weeks out of 20 and there for 16.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:57 AM

His parents should be hanged, drawn and quatered and the boy sent to Australia to be 'schooled' 24/7.....eh, Richard?

(and yes, I am joking, for those with no humour)

Tell me, when did so many of you become brainwashed into giving your children over to the State, to have them loaded down with pressure, to have them tested, examined...and sometimes brought to within an inch of suicide, if not actually carrying that out, simply because you were sold the belief that the *only* way to educate a child is in a rigid school system?

Would you tell you child, at home, to sit on a hard wooden chair for 8 hours and study, giving him just a few breaks? Would you then tell him that when he'd done that, he could sit on a softer chair and do his homework...but to be sure to get up early to go to school early for his breakfast club...and to not forget to put his name down for his after school club...

And since WHEN did you all believe that those who have the word 'teacher' on their passports are the ONLY people who are able to actually teach children?

Some teachers damaged my children.

As I have said so many times, I have the utmost respect for anyone who can teach a child well, be they official teachers or simply natural ones. They literally can inspire a child for the rest of their lives.

I have the utmost disgust for bullies and inadequates, many of whom dislike children, who dare to hide behind the name of 'teacher' purely because it's a steady job with lots of holidays...and like it or not, there are plenty of teachers who are in it for the holidays.

Yes, teachers these days are also snowed under with pressure. Many of them, sadly, put that onto the children. The good teachers would never dream of doing such a thing..and often burn themselves out trying to protect and help their stressed out pupils.



Emma...thank you for your usual bitchy comment, but when I spoke of Russia, I meant that the population has now become so controlled, so amenable to being told what they can or cannot do.

There are only 2 compulsory things in my life...being born and dying. Everything that happens to me, or my children, inbetween that time has options and is my decision. And my children are free to live their own lives now as they want to. They do not, and never have belonged to The State.

To start fining parents for anything is madness.   

As Crow Sister so aptly pointed out, they should be looking into the reasons that children aren't attending schools in the first place

But of course, they won't, because they don't want to hear the answers.

The next thing on the horizon will be to shut down Home Education, regulate it, restrict it as much as possible...

When they do...and they will...you should all shudder in horror, because then, the STATE really will own your children.

No-one owns their children, we are the Keepers and the Guardians of them.

School is not compulosry....but soon, I fear it will be...and then the Age of the Individual will start to sink over the horizon with ever increasing speed.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 09:25 AM

School IS compulsory Lizzie. Unless you make approved arrangements for home education, which you know about. Then you are required to send your child to school.
Pity is that you are not obliged to send a well brought up, and behaved child to school.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 09:48 AM

to sit on a hard wooden chair for 8 hours and study

Are you seriously telling us you know about education and you write total garbage like that?

That maybe what you did with your children when you took them out of school, it does not happen in state schools anywhere that I am aware of.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 09:49 AM

School is Not Compulsory - Youtube

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 09:49 AM

Should have read:


to sit on a hard wooden chair for 8 hours and study

Are you seriously telling us you know about education and you write total garbage like that?

That maybe what you did with your children when you took them out of school, it does not happen in state schools anywhere that I am aware of.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 09:58 AM

Sorry, John....big problems with my computer at the moment..keeps shutting down.....

It is Education which is compulsory, not school. Legally it is the parent's duty to educate their children either through school or 'otherwise' . That's where the name 'Education Otherwise' comes from. They are the people who were so incredibly helpful to us a few years back.

Dave, when my children were at school they had hard wooden chairs to sit on. And they went to a few different schools too. All were the same. My daughter was in school until she ws 15, you know, so yes, I do have a good idea of what goes on. And yes, I helped out in BOTH my children's schools, teaching the children...so believe it or not, shock horror, I DO know what goes on.    Even today, I have friends whose children are in school, and I patiently listen to all their worries and anxieties about their stressed out children...

Turnips. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 10:00 AM

"Tell me, when did so many of you become brainwashed into giving your children over to the State, to have them loaded down with pressure, to have them tested, examined...and sometimes brought to within an inch of suicide, if not actually carrying that out, simply because you were sold the belief that the *only* way to educate a child is in a rigid school system?"

Well, maybe those of us with a more balanced view have also read a bit of history, and realise what life was like before state education - when being educated was the preserve of the wealthy. Personally, I would not want my child disadvantaged by the haphazard education that I, alone, would be able to give her. She learns languages that I can't speak and maths that are utterly beyond me. She studies photography and science with equipment that I neither possess nor could afford. She is educated by dedicated people who have spent years developing their subject knowledge and their teaching skills. She also has the social environment of school, where she develops her friendship groups and learns to navigate difficult social situations, just as she will have to do later in life.

This might not be the only way to educate a child and prepare them for the rest of their lives - but I certainly believe it is the best one we have. And in many cases it is infinitely preferable to leaving kids to the haphazard attentions of parents who might not be particularly well educated themselves, do not have any skills or training in teaching, and who provide a limited and limiting social environment.

"Would you tell you child, at home, to sit on a hard wooden chair for 8 hours and study, giving him just a few breaks?"

This is a fantasy. The school day is about 6 - 6.5 hours long, and includes about an hour for lunch, a 20 minute morning break, PE, and numerous lessons where kids work in groups or move around the classroom. "Studying" includes time at computer terminals, watching videos and DVDs, practical activities like arts, crafts and textiles, and drama. Rigid lessons where kids sit quietly studying on "hard wooden chairs", looking straight ahead at the teacher, are few and far between both at primary and secondary level these days. Interactive whiteboards and classroom internet access means that teachers have far more resources available than just the bog-standard textbook, and even in Year 7, activities in Geography and History include a fair bit of cutting stuff out, sticking it down and colouring in, to make the material accessible and less rigid.


"And since WHEN did you all believe that those who have the word 'teacher' on their passports are the ONLY people who are able to actually teach children?"

Well, those people have taken years to develop their teaching skills, so it isn't just a question of having the piece of paper with "teacher" ion it, it's having learned HOW to teach.

"Some teachers damaged my children."

That is genuinely very sad, Lizzie. But you have been taking out your anger at those people on the entire teaching profession for far too long.

"I have the utmost disgust for bullies and inadequates, many of whom dislike children, who dare to hide behind the name of 'teacher' purely because it's a steady job with lots of holidays...and like it or not, there are plenty of teachers who are in it for the holidays."

Working in schools, I have not seen anything I would identify as teachers bullying their pupils - but I am quite appalled by the number of children who bully their teachers, clearly because they have never been taught any manners or respect at home. Yesterday, I took a bottom-set RE class which was about morals and ethics. The class had to come up with a list of 10 rules that they thought would make society better. This class includes some of the school's real hard-nuts, and their little group came up with rules such as "no drinking age", "bring back smoking in pubs", and "get rid of all the Pakis and immigrants". God help us if the people who have dragged these kids up were also responsible for educating them.


It may be "a steady job", but it's one that requires at least four years of study and training. And marking, lesson planning and administration take up an enormous amount of time - the perception of a teacher's "free" time far outweighs the reality.


"Yes, teachers these days are also snowed under with pressure. Many of them, sadly, put that onto the children."

As I say - I don't really see this happening.




"No-one owns their children, we are the Keepers and the Guardians of them."

I could not agree more.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Wesley S
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 10:00 AM

"School IS compulsory Lizzie"

And so is work if you expect to make something of yourself in this world.What employer is going to keep an employee that shows up as often as these kids?

Who would want to be married or have a relationship with someone who only showed up when they felt like it? What child would want to have a parent that was only there for them 80% of the time?

If you don't the the state of "THE STATE" then you can do two things. Join it and change it from the inside - or cut and run. But life is easier for the people who "suit up and show up".

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 10:11 AM

As Dave suggested earlier, Lizzie: if you have teaching experience, schools are crying out for TAs, SENs learning support and cover supervisors. The pay is not fantastic, and there are no paid holidays, but you could make a difference. You might need to do a bit more training, but why not get involved in making things better instead of more impotent ranting about the system on messageboards?

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: MikeL2
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 10:19 AM

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Sorcha - PM
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 04:24 PM

Hi sorcha

<" Another day, another Rant Thread. Will NONE of you learn? ">

This is the most sensible message on this thread !!!!

When will they ever learn......when will they ever learn...

Regards

MikeL

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Royston
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 10:26 AM

I have to echo Emma B in pointing out that Lizzie normally argues strongly that parents don't take responsibility, that parents are the source of the problems with "kids today" and that parents are primarily responsible - the bad ones - for whatever collapse of our social fabric might be happening. To some extent I agree with those sentiments

So it is odd, but not altogether surprising, to see her attitude towards this story.

It begs the question; why, if someone clearly believes nothing in any sort of consistent or reasoned way, do some of us bother to react to every uttering made by that person?

Better just to ignore it?

May I say that this family appears to be the very model of feckless, anti-social malingerers? That something needs to be done to salvage these kids, that maybe they ought not to be in the care of their mother? That the vicious circle should be broken? I sound like one of Lizzie's manifold personalities. I should lie down for a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 10:33 AM

Quite right Richard - That'll teach me to read the quotes properly. Must by why you are a solicitor and I clean flies out of computers...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 10:45 AM

"Must by why you are a solicitor and I clean flies out of computers..."

Do you?! There's been a thunderfly inside my laptop screen since last summer. Care to pop round?

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: paula t
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:07 PM

Hi Smedley and MtheGM,

Sorry it has taken so long to answer your question (been a bit busy). The trouble is that the official ruling hasn't changed. No government is brave enough to change it, but pressure is put on headteachers not to grant the leave. Any headteachers granting the leave find that they have to justify this to OFSTED and the Education authorities. It is almost seen a negligent to allow "poor attendance" because of term time holidays. If they follow the ruling they are given by OFSTED and the authorities they alienate the parents, they still go on holiday and the time off has to be officially marked as unauthorised absence (truancy). The school is then marked down by OFSTED because of an unsatisfactory attendance rate. They can't win.Parents think it is the headteacher being unreasonable because they believe that the government thinks it is Ok to have 2 weeks off.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:24 PM

Paula t ~ then the rule HAS changed: I repeat that in my time the head had no discretion to refuse the fortnight off, which was a STATUTORY ENTITLEMENT**; so he did not 'grant the leave', but could not refuse it; and so had no need to 'justify' so doing to anybody. If he is now required to do so, by any alteration either of convention or regulation, then it can no longer be so** described, can it?

He could, I suppose, in my time, have urged that it was a bad time, too near exams, or whatever. But I do not, in my 12 years as Head of Upper School, remember an instance where there was any sort of dispute: parents knew when exams were perfectly well, and always had the good sense to avoid such times. I remember one policeman ringing me up at home, expressly to apologise profusely to me because he had no option when to take his leave and he realised it might interfere with rehearsals for the school play I was directing, in which his daughter had a leading part; I was happy to reassure him, with thanks for the adequate notice he had so courteously given, that I could easily adjust the rehearsal schedule.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: paula t
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:40 PM

Hi MtheGM,

Yes, according to the information the parents have, the rule has not changed but they are merely asked to try to avoid taking the time off. It's just the "behind the scenes goalposts" which have been moved. An example of politicians wanting to take credit for improved attendance without being the ones seen to be making life difficult for parents.That would lose lots of votes. Much easier to make headteachers try to discourage poor attendance and seem unreasonable eh?

Paula

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:49 PM

School is NOT compulsory over here in the UK, Wesley. Education is. And I think you may find it's the same in the US, as there, Home Education has been going on for far longer and is encompasses far more children than over here, although our numbers are increasing every single year..



"Well, maybe those of us with a more balanced view have also read a bit of history, and realise what life was like before state education - when being educated was the preserve of the wealthy."

I am well aware of history. Please do not talk to me in such a condescending manner. School has only been around for a relatively short time, in the scheme of things. Mankind still managed perfectly well without it.

Is the 'average' child of today that much better off, despite all his education and material items? Like his forebears, he'll still struggle to find a job, particularly one that will last his whole life long, or own a house, He will, more than likely, be in debt most of his days, live his life according to the rules of the Corporate Bastards who control the consumers that schools so often turn out...

"Personally, I would not want my child disadvantaged by the haphazard education that I, alone, would be able to give her."

What the fuck makes you think my daughter is in any way 'disadvantaged'????

For fuck's sake woman, what part of 'she had almost given up on life' do you not understand???????????????? And she had come to feel that way purely because of **school** and what was happening to her inside it!

Geez Loueeeze!!

Have you never heard of libraries, musuems, the internet, videos, BOOKS, discussion, living life?????!!!!!!!!!


"She learns languages that I can't speak and maths that are utterly beyond me."

Well, bully for her! My daughter paints in a way I've never seen anyone else paint before!   Your daughter has skills in languages and maths, my daughter struggled, from Day 1 with maths, because she was constantly tested on mental arithmetic and it made her panic! She struggled because one day, her headmaster (yes, the prat who made me assertive!) ridiculed her for getting 2/10 in her test, and he told the entire class, kept on about it.....That fear never left her, that humiliation! The man was a bastard who had NO right to be a teacher, let alone a fucking headmaster!!!

"She studies photography and science with equipment that I neither possess nor could afford."


She is educated by dedicated people who have spent years developing their subject knowledge and their teaching skills. She also has the social environment of school, where she develops her friendship groups and learns to navigate difficult social situations, just as she will have to do later in life.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 01:50 PM

Darn this compoooter! Post too soon again, it's all buggered up lately..AAArGH! Back shortly..

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 02:07 PM

"What the fuck makes you think my daughter is in any way 'disadvantaged'????"

Umm, I don't believe I said that. You many be happy with the standard of education you were able to provide for your daughter. I would not be satisfied with the standard of education that I, as an untrained individual whose own knowledge in certain areas is extremely limited, would be able to provide for mine.

"School has only been around for a relatively short time, in the scheme of things. Mankind still managed perfectly well without it."

It also managed without indoor sanitation, without antibiotics, without the NHS...just because we "managed" doesn't mean we should wish those days back. Ignorance is NOT bliss.

"Your daughter has skills in languages and maths"

Actually, she is not particularly gifted in either of those areas - she has to work hard at them and needs the support of teachers who know the subjects well and can help her to understand them in a way that I never could. Consequently, school is giving her opportunities which I, as a parent, would be incapable of. I do not want my daughter limited by my own limitations. That's the whole point.

You seem to think that, by explaining my reasons for thinking that state education is generally A Good Thing, I am having a dig at how you educated your own children, but I was simply responding to your earlier accusation that all of us in an early diatribe, accuse all of us who send our kids to school of being "brainwashed into giving your children over to the State, to have them loaded down with pressure, to have them tested, examined...and sometimes brought to within an inch of suicide, if not actually carrying that out..."


Well, my daughter is getting a good education, has lots of friends and, so far as I can tell, is not suicidal. I'm sorry that you can't accept that other people might be perfectly happy with the choices they've made, that don't happen to be the same as yours.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 02:17 PM

Continued from above.....

"She studies photography and science with equipment that I neither possess nor could afford."

Well ladeedadeeda! My daughter goes off everywhere with her camera, then comes back and turns those photos into paintings! She doesn't like science, so never feels she's lost out..It ain't her thing.

Your point is??????????????


"She is educated by dedicated people who have spent years developing their subject knowledge and their teaching skills."

Mine was educated by people of a similar background, but many of them didn't give a flying fuck about her. In Tavistock College her teacher didn't even know her name, read out someone else's file to us, told us how badly she was doing...Ha!!! WE had to point out her mistake!


"She also has the social environment of school, where she develops her friendship groups and learns to navigate difficult social situations, just as she will have to do later in life."

Well, again, ladee fucking da!   So what???????? My daughter deals with people of ALL ages, all the time!   She has good friends that she goes out with all the time. She also has two jobs, is doing a flaming Open University Degree and is learning to drive. She pays for her driving lessons herself and has bought her own car. She has money in the bank and is NOT in debt!

Is that OK for you??????????????????????????

Holey Mother of Munchkins!


"Working in schools, I have not seen anything I would identify as teachers bullying their pupils - "

Then, you have your eyes wide shut!


"but I am quite appalled by the number of children who bully their teachers, clearly because they have never been taught any manners or respect at home."

Maybe they're also sick fed up of being so controlled, so stressed out with workloads that they don't want and often couldn't give a toss about??????????????? Hmmmmm???????



"Yesterday, I took a bottom-set RE class which was about morals and ethics. The class had to come up with a list of 10 rules that they thought would make society better. This class includes some of the school's real hard-nuts, and their little group came up with rules such as "no drinking age", "bring back smoking in pubs", and "get rid of all the Pakis and immigrants". God help us if the people who have dragged these kids up were also responsible for educating them."

There are good and bad home educators, just as there are good and bad teachers! OK? Do not paint all home educators as bad. I, at least, state, over and over, that I have UTMOST respect for great and brilliant teachers...but I also realise that you do NOT have to have had studied for years to be such a teacher. You can actually be a bloody wonderful natural teacher.

I had a friend who taught for years. She hates children. Can't bear the little buggers. Now WHY would someone who feels that way become a teacher? She was hopeless with my children, no maternal instinct whatsoever. She loved facts though. She wanted to impart those facts, but she couldn't bear all the emotions that came with children...She didn't remain a friend for long.


"It may be "a steady job", but it's one that requires at least four years of study and training. And marking, lesson planning and administration take up an enormous amount of time - the perception of a teacher's "free" time far outweighs the reality."

I am well aware of what a teacher's life is like. Thanks all the same. Teachers do however, even after lesson planning and marking have more free time during holidays...and yes, I know that they have to plan for the next term during those holidays. Personally I think it's shite the amount of paperwork teachers now have to do, and the amount of stress they're under to meet 'targets'. It all stinks, as does the controlling way in which this Orwellian Government controls how they teach, what they teach and the way they're supposed to teach it...It's crap!


And Joan, you have seen my daughter's myspace page, so you damn well know that she is a very intelligent person. This is not a 'my daughter's better than your daughter' situation!

Home Education is damned hard, and you get no help whatsoever! You literally learn as you go along, but you soon learn that when the rules and regulations are removed, the children WANT to learn again, just as they always used to.

My Education Welfare Officer thought the absolute world of my two children, and he did all he could to help us. He was a former teacher, of many, many years, as was his wife, before she was paralysed from the waist down, in a car accident. Richard looked after her and helped people like us, and he looked after the kids who were expelled too. They of course, got 25 hours free education a week, and I think this may now have gone up even more. We got nothing, as we had chosen to leave The System. Richard knew The System inside out, and he used to despair of what was happening inside it.

Don't tell me it's all hunky dory and bloody marvellous, 'cos it ain't!

The System nearly killed my daugher. It turned my son OFF from learning. I turned them both back on....so don't go talking to me in your usual condescending manner, thank you, because in this instance YOU are the one who hasn't got a clue!

And the fact your daughter is going to Japan means zilch to me. Life is not about trips abroad. There is a whole lifetime ahead for those trips. They are not a necessity. My friend struggles financially to send her son on those kind of trips, and quite frankly, I don't think school should be asking parents to pay out vast sums like that. I realise that your daughter had to raise some of the money herself.

My daughter went abroad for the first time in her life, last year. She went to Florence, along with her brother. She'd read up all about it, before she went, although she already knew heaps, because of all the art history there. She planned where they'd go, she took photographs, she had the most bloody wonderful time. Why? Because her enthusiasm had not been dulled by endless trips abroad with her school. It was all so new to her, so terribly exciting!   She loved every single minute of it, as did her brother...

So please, don't patronise me, nor my two children.

I am very glad your daughter is so happy at school. Many children thrive there, as I've said countless times. Many do not.

Go listen to the music of your new pals...and you may learn a little more..I'm off to talk to my 'thick' kids now and explain to them what a terrible life they're going to have because they were home educated...

Holy Jumping Elephant Fish!


Oh..and by the way, what the fuck makes you think that I would EVER want to be part of a system that nearly killed my child?????? I have a job, I have TWO actually, being a Carer as well.

So,you do your job, and I'll do mine.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 02:24 PM

"Well, my daughter is getting a good education,"

Likewise. My daughter said to me when she was just a little girl, "Mum there is so much to find out in the world. I want to know everything, I want to learn everything. There's not enought time."

She will never **stop** educating herself!


"has lots of friends"

Likewise!

and, so far as I can tell, is not suicidal. I'm sorry that you can't accept that other people might be perfectly happy with the choices they've made, that don't happen to be the same as yours. "

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 02:30 PM

Bloomin' keyboard!


"and, so far as I can tell, is not suicidal."

Count your blessings...each and every day, count them.



"I'm sorry that you can't accept that other people might be perfectly happy with the choices they've made, that don't happen to be the same as yours. "


Excuse me???? I have ALWAYS said that for many children school is great! They thrive on it. They love the competitive situations, of being 'best' getting high marks etc..I have always understood that and said so, too. Education Otherwise also understands that.

Where we differ is that we, home educators that is, realise that school is NOT right for ALL children...and THAT is where the School System stinks.

Ed Balls is aptly named for being the Edukashon Minister.

It's like Happy Families ain't it...

'Mr. Balls, the Edukashon Minister'


Oh, and if you think it's all so rosy, you'd better ring my friend Kim up and explain to her why both her children are stressed out beyond belief because of doing their A Levels and GCSEs! It's almost breaking her family apart....but heyho....

And now, I have to go lie down and recover from Condescension Overload, so if you'll excuse me..........

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 02:54 PM

Thanks Lizzie, you just gave me my best laugh of the day. "Condescension Overload".
I love it.
Trouble is my friend, there is an awful lot of it on Mudcat, and it starts at the top.
Enjoy your lie down.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:33 PM

"Well ladeedadeeda!"

My point, Lizzie, is that these are the opportunities that EVERY kid gets who goes to state school. Schools provide resources, learning support and expertise which most homes and parents simply cannot. That's the whole point.


"Excuse me???? I have ALWAYS said that for many children school is great! They thrive on it."

But, didn't you say, only a few posts ago...

"Tell me, when did so many of you become brainwashed into giving your children over to the State, to have them loaded down with pressure, to have them tested, examined...and sometimes brought to within an inch of suicide, if not actually carrying that out,"

You do what you like with your kids, Lizzie. Just stop telling us how we're abusing ours by simply sending them to school.

"Life is not about trips abroad." Well, my daughter has been going abroad since she was three months old. Her passion for travel has certainly not been "dulled" through this. She has slept in a mud hut with village children in Zambia, learned to ski in Switzerland, been on safari, learned to scuba dive, camped with bedouins and visited the Valley of the Kings in Egypt - and all of this during the school term, just to come back OT. She loves travel - which is why she's raising the money to go to Japan. Have these experiences broadened and enriched her life? I think so. I am really glad, as a parent, that she has had these opportunities. Just as, I am sure, you are happy with the opportunities you have given to your children. If you find that condescending - well, sorry. But you never fail to shoot from the hip when you tell us how miserable and suicidal our kids are, as a result of us sending them to school.


Re kids who bully their teachers:

"Maybe they're also sick fed up of being so controlled, so stressed out with workloads that they don't want and often couldn't give a toss about?"

Spend a week in an inner-city secondary school. Then tell me that the really bad kids, the ones who bully their teachers and run riot through the school, are "controlled" and "stressed out with workloads". They don't DO any work, so they have no workloads, despite the schools bending over backwards trying to create tailored programmes of work and classes that might interest them and that are pitched at their level. And no one controls them. No one. Leastwise their teachers.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:44 PM

Fuckit Lizzie - hard work yields improvement.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Bert
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:56 PM

Lizzie says ...my daughter struggled, from Day 1 with maths...

My Sister was just the same, and in her case it was bad teaching as well.

Mathematics is probably the worst taught subject in schools. I don't recall ever hearing of a maths teacher who taught his students that maths is a game. It is a game of 'let's pretend'.

Let's pretend that we can separate number from quantity. Then we can PLAY with the numbers and see what happens.

So let's take a poll here. Did anyone of you ever have a teacher tell you that?

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 05:23 PM

Some people around here are suffering from a severe case of double standards.

Everyone else's children = out of control (see 'rape victims' thread)

Their own children = can do no wrong.

Doesn't surprise me but I am amazed at how many people fall for it...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:27 PM

"Fuckit Lizzie - hard work yields improvement."

Yes, Richard, it most certainly does. And that is why my daughter has improved so much since she came out of school, because she decided *herself* to work hard, feeling that she wanted to, as she was finally free to study what she was interested in, to do two jobs, study for her degree, learn to drive and put money in the bank, all at the same time.

The trouble is, many children will not work hard when school expects, wants or demands that they do.

Our children have very little childhood any longer. Their innocent world grows smaller, faster, every year...and inbetween that they have to spend many hours AFTER school and during holidays and weekends slogging away at subjects they have absolutely no interest in, for homework. Why?

As far as inner city schools go, you need radical thinking, as in 'beyond current belief' thinking to bring those children in, and you will not bring them in with a National Curriculum that demands they MUST do this and that, and be tested at every given opportunity.

I actually have to admire some kids, because they've outwitted the control freaks and their demands. How? Simply by refusing to learn any longer. You cannot FORCE a child to learn. It is a natural instinct, and school is actually turning that off.

Do they ask why?
Do they ask the children why?

Nope, because they cannot take their feet out of the concrete that was poured into their buckets so long ago, and they are still doing things the same old way..."We teach. You learn. And YOU learn what we demand you learn, in OUR way!"

It no longer works.....

And there was a campaign about this a while back, I saw the posters and smiled, as their spelling was almost the same as mine...
Educashun Isn't Working! they screamed from billboards...trying to get people to ask why it's not doing that.

All the money that's poured in, the millions and billions and yet never have so many children dug their heels in and said 'NO!' before.

Many children do not have the capacity to concentrate for long periods anymore. The computer age has blown the way we learn apart.

It was interesting the other day, watching a programme about the internet revolution and how it's changed the way people think, gain knowledge etc. How it's actually changed the way our brains WORK.

They interviewed one of the tutors at Oxford University and he was saying how one of the first questions new students ask him is "Is there much reading to do, Sir?" and when he tells them there is a GREAT DEAL of reading, they groan and ask how long the books are.....then, they groan even more, saying how they don't read much, hardly ever...They do eventually knuckle down to read, but he almost has to teach them how to do that first.

Now, you and I will mourn the passing of reading books, mourn the loss of magic that goes with that, but the kids don't feel that way, because their magic comes from another source. Hopefully, they will discover the joy of reading at some point in their lives....

Maybe they'd discover it if they were simply allowed, for two hours a day, to curl up in large beanie bags in school, in brightly coloured classrooms, which felt like comfy, cosy rooms, with a coffee bar in the corner, serving soft drinks, some music playing, just softly..and they were actually trusted to be left to read, to read *whatever* they wanted, un-interrupted, with no worry of being asked questions on it later, just being able to experience the pure joy of reading...or even listening to a book being read to them via headphones, able to chill out, lie on the floor, feel at ease.

Maybe if they were allowed to learn EVERYTHING without the constant worry of being tested...?

Many children now think, feel and learn very differently to how we did. Their brains do not understand the 'old' ways, just as ours do not understand the 'new'....but somehow, somewhere, in some way, we have to learn to meet in the middle, instead of demanding that 'these bad children' do it 'our' way. They are not bad, merely bored and pissed off.   They already have shite home lives, and they don't want to spend the majority of their day in a shite school environment being tested, assessed, weighed and measured.

Perhaps, for the first time ever, teachers are going to have to start learning the 'new' way, from their pupils.

Many teachers have always had much to learn from their students, but perhaps have been too long on 'transmit' Perhaps now has come the time to switch to 'receive'.


Bert, my daughter always wanted to count on her fingers for math. The class wa never allowed to, getting told off severely if they even dared to think about it. This confused her brain totally because she could no longer 'see' the quantity of the sum. Then the mental arithmetic tests started with five seconds per answer being allowed and well...that was it..chaos and anxiety in her head...

Years back I read a great book written by a math teacher from the 1970s. He told of a day when he had to address a meeting of fellow mathematicians. He was doing some calculations on the board, and used his fingers to work it all out. He was laughed at by his companions. He then told them he had no problem with anyone using their fingers to work things out. Indeed, he thought it eminently sensible and part of what fingers were for! He also believed anything which helped to make maths easier was a great way forward. His audience went very quiet.

Yes, to make mathematics a game, fun, is a great idea.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 07:27 PM

Where we differ is that we, home educators that is, realise that school is NOT right for ALL children...and THAT is where the School System stinks.

Nope. I agree with Lizzie. Some pupils need special care, sometimes they need it in the community. And sometimes they get it outside their community.

Some people get it on message boards.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: GUEST,Guest - Ellie's Travel Expenses
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 07:38 AM

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 10:06 AM

Liz, have you ever thought of seeking professional help? Obviously some serious issues, phobias and delusions you need to work out.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 10:51 AM

He also believed anything which helped to make maths easier was a great way forward.

There was nothing which made maths easier or any fun when I was at school; thankfully it didn't turn me off the subject but it didn't help a lot of other people. My experience of schools these days is that things have changed. Children do count using their fingers if it helps and there are a lot more fun things to do, games and maths days.

I can see what Lizzie is saying that school does not appear to be for every child but a lot of parents would not have the time or ability or even inclination to home school their child. There are now special schools where school refusers can be taught very successfully.

There is no doubt that a few schools and a few teachers are poor but they are in the minority. The majority of schools and teachers make the educating process a good experience for most children. Sweeping generalisations about all schools and all teachers are just not fair.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Bert
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 11:24 AM

That's the thing lizzie, you don't have to make it a game. It IS a game, it isn't real! And so many math teachers confuse their kids by treating it as reality.

How many poor little sods have agonized for years 'cos they are trying to assign a value or a meaning to zero. Zero is nothing. That means "There is no such thing as zero". You have math teachers all over the world telling kids that it is a number, when they should be telling them "Let's pretend that something is there when it isn't"

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 03:32 PM

There are only 2 compulsory things in my life - 3 surely, what about paying tax??

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:24 PM

Here we go....one that Sam and I made, earlier....as they say on Blue Peter... ;0)

Rainbow Chasers - New Blue Stockings, and other songs..


Made it a long time back now, just recalling how long it took me to type all those lyrics out...but it was worth it, because that's a lovely CD...and a GREAT song.


(and they went off seething into their folkie socks, that once again, she'd shown 'em up for being some pretty pratty prissy potties) ;0)

I told you guys that I'm into LEARNING, not Edukashon and that's why I used to enjoy making those sites with Sam, because they were laying down learning paths for folks to find.   The gap betweeen Learning and Edukashon is the same as lies between Faith and Religion.

One we are born with inside our Souls.
One is man made and so often used to control, create fear, stress and obedience.





Bert, couldn't agree with you more over the math thing.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 01:21 PM

I guess Lizzie thinks Birmingham Council had the right idea:

Khyra Ishaq and other untraced truant children

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 02:10 PM

A tragic example Jack for which the blame cannot be totally placed on the employees of the LEA or welfare services

Despite recommendations of a recent report
Review of Elective Home Education in England June 2009 discussed in another thread (***see below) here, while education is compulsory for children in the UK, going to school is not, and it is believed between 20,000 and 50,000 children are educated at home, but the exact figure is unknown.

There is no legal requirement for home educators to update the LEA on the child's progress, to have any teaching qualifications, to give their children lessons or even to follow any kind of syllabus or the national curriculum.

There is also no automatic right of access to the parent's home, parents may refuse a meeting in the home

Similarly, the LEA has no legal obligation to investigate parents who don't send their children to school, unless there are very real and justifiable concerns for the child's welfare


*** in which it was completely inaccurately stated that -

"They're also making it more and more difficult to home-educate (no surprises there then)...and of course, every single child in the country is now on a registar from birth to 18, to which police, teachers, social workers and medical staff have instant access....PARENTS have no access to this at all.
Any child considered 'at risk' has a flag by their name.
My son does. Why? Because he's home-educated....and ALL home-educated children are now considered 'at risk'."

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=123900#2732609

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 01:53 PM

How Can A Poor Man Stand Such Times And Live?

Oh, the schools we have today ain't worth a cent
But they see to it that every child is sent
If we don't send every day we have a heavy fine to pay.
Tell me how can a poor man stand such times and live?

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 10:30 AM

My son does. Why? Because he's home-educated....and ALL home-educated children are now considered 'at risk'."

Lets get rid of this hideous government then!

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 11:11 AM

Bonzo3legs

- as I pointed out the statement that all home educated children are considered 'at risk' never mind on a 'register' has NO ELEMENT OF TRUTH IN IT WHATSOEVER apart from the fact, that in the tragic case referred to by Jack, removing a child from school for the purpose of unmonitored 'home education' could, and did in that instance, disguise the appaling neglect and starvation she was subjected to out of the notice of the authorities.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 05:56 PM

- as I pointed out the statement that all home educated children are considered 'at risk' never mind on a 'register' has NO ELEMENT OF TRUTH IN IT WHATSOEVER apart from the fact, that in the tragic case referred to by Jack, removing a child from school for the purpose of unmonitored 'home education' could, and did in that instance, disguise the appaling neglect and starvation she was subjected to out of the notice of the authorities.


What a complete load of Ed Balls, Emma.


Here is what you call the No Element of Truth register.....It is called CONTACT POINT and was brought about because of the tragic death of Victoria Climibie. She died, not because of home education, but because of two vile people who were supposed to be caring for her, and because Social Servcies messed up, YET AGAIN.

So now, to cover their bloody downright disgusting behaviour EVERY SINGLE CHILD is now on a 'register' at Contact Point..and Home Educated children are deemed to be at higher risk and are now being tracked, along with other children who have simply 'disappeared' off the radar.

Contact Point


I would also point out that nNON home educated children also get murdered, killed, poisoned, treated horrifically and a whole lot more.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 05:58 PM

The Guardian on Ed Balls recommendations

Database Unsafe

Education Otherwise - Government Policy

Open Letter to Ed Balls





Taken from here.


>>>ContactPoint database to track children not in school
September 17th, 2008 by irdial
We expected this to happen:

1.2.3 Section 436A requires all local authorities to make arrangements to enable them to establish (so far as it is possible to do so) the identities of children residing in their area who are not receiving a suitable education. In relation to children, by 'suitable education' we mean efficient full-time education suitable to her/his age, ability and aptitude and to any special educational needs the child may have.

And here is the true purpose of this entire exercise.

This is the way they are going to get every child in England into and justify the existence of ContactPoint.

.....

The goal of these guidelines is to create a way to sweep up all the home educating children in the UK, identify them, categorize them and put them on a database, together with the names of their parents, siblings, ethnicity and other details. See below. Once again, children who are being educated at home, privately, or in alternative provision should not be subject to being identified for this purpose, since they are being educated quite legally.


And now its even worse than we thought it would be:

By Lauren Higgs
Children & Young People Now
17 September 2008

The national database of everyone who is under 18 in England is to be used to identify children missing from education.

Monthly reports created by the ContactPoint database will be sent to local authorities listing the names of children not recorded at an education setting.

The School Census for state schools and pupil lists from independent schools and pupil referral units will be used to complete the relevant field on ContactPoint. Children not accounted for will feature in the reports, which are intended to help children missing education teams focus their work.

But Fiona Nicholson, chair of home schooling organisation Education Otherwise, said the reports will mean councils target home-educated children. She said: "ContactPoint should not be used for this."

But Richard Stiff, chair of the information systems and technology policy committee at the Association of Directors of Children's Services, said the reports would not change the way councils treat home-educated children: "It is unlikely this will be a tool in the armoury of the state."<<<

Another Invasion of Privacy - The Guardian

And from there (in case the link disappears)..oh, and please note that Jenni mentions that children remain on this site until they are TWENTY THREE YEARS OLD:

Another invasion of liberty. And only the Tories are alertThese databases are like weeds. ContactPoint will overburden professionals –and put vulnerable children at greater risk


Jenni Russell guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 15 September 2009 21.00 BST

It shows what public outrage can achieve. The government has been forced into a swift though partial retreat over its plans to monitor and license adults' relationships with children through a giant database. Good. But these databases are like weeds. The new children's databases, due to go live in the next few months, are just as intrusive, just as alarming, and, so far, just as little understood.

Imagine that, as an adult, a health problem or argument at home means you are not working effectively. You or your boss decide you need help. Then you find that before you can be offered a counsellor, physio, or executive coach, you must submit to an intensive interrogation about every aspect of your life, from your sexual experiences, early attachments, friendships, peer groups, fears, motivations, drug use and relationships with parents and siblings, to your family's income, spending, history of illness, and its size, culture and routines.

That's only the start. The account of this interrogation is to be held on a national database, and the fact that it exists can be shared with every public service you use: doctors, hospitals, educational bodies, social workers, or the police. Indeed, if you want extra help from any of these services you'll be told it's in your interests to allow all these professionals to read your interrogation, because it's only if they have a holistic understanding of your problems that they'll be able to help you. And to make it easier for them to discuss you if they need to, someone has set up a handy computer file that they can all consult, giving your address, where you work, and contact numbers for everyone else who deals with you.

This is not a distant fantasy. Only one element of this scenario is inaccurate, and that's that it applies to adults. This is the system of intrusion and surveillance which will be imposed on all England's schoolchildren later this year. While we have been worrying about ID cards, the government has been quietly using its statutory powers to collect an unprecedented range of information on every element of our children's lives.

All 11 million children are going to have their contact details, with links to the public services they use and the individuals who treat them, held on the hugely expensive and insecure Contact-Point database. Then, to add to the breadth of knowledge the state makes available on a child, it's estimated that for a third to a half of children there will be depth: the eight-page interrogation known as CAF, or Common Assessment Framework. That's now what the government recommends carrying out for any child who isn't flourishing, and who has additional needs – perhaps due to dyslexia, hearing problems, depression, bullying, or disability.

This information will not be safe, because the systems on which it is housed are too large, need to be accessed by too many people, and are too complex; 390,000 individuals will have access to ContactPoint. Just as the police, NHS and tax credit databases have all been exploited by hackers, criminals and vengeful individuals, so ContactPoint and CAF data will leak.

This move into wholesale tracking is being done with the aim of spotting children's problems early, co-ordinating support for them and improving their life chances. The intentions are admirable. The means – mass databases, a focus on systems and not people, the holding of data on children until they are at least 23 – are not. Most children don't have major problems and don't need this blunderbuss of an intervention. Monitoring all of them is a massive distraction.

Collecting all this data is a huge diversion of people and resources. It discourages individuals from responding to the real child in front of them, and forces them instead into the frenzy of information-gathering which the system demands. In May, a head told the National Association of Headteachers how he went to the home of a pupil in distress and found an alcoholic single parent passed out on the floor. When he rang social services for help, they refused. He was told to carry out a CAF before they would respond.

The campaigner Terri Dowty, who runs ARCH (Action for the Rights of Children), says many teachers find the CAF process so invasive and cumbersome that it makes them less likely to inquire into a child's wellbeing. Where before a head who was worried about a child's exhaustion might have asked a social worker to drop by the house, the prospect of starting a lengthy, open-ended official inquiry into a child's life is deterring them. Meanwhile, social workers and other services are being overwhelmed by data. In that process, the children who really do need the scarce help – those at risk of harm and abuse – no longer stand out. As Dowty puts it, the ratio of noise to signal has gone badly wrong.

At Cambridge, Ross Anderson, professor of computer security, is equally scathing. He says the government is attempting mechanised compassion. The databases are a darkness at the heart of state; a belief that if we could just know everything about everybody, everything would work.

Labour will not reverse this; only the Tories might. They promise to review CAF database, ditch ContactPoint for a small, targeted database, and invest in strengthening people's relationships instead. It's depressing that Labour supporters who believe in liberties, privacy and humanity should find themselves having to cheer the Tories on this issue.<<<<

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 06:08 PM

Just another example of failing to understand legislation and confabulation of totally different reports and recommendations - not to mention twisting the much despised and ridiculed 'facts' to fit a personal 'fixation'.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 06:25 PM

And when you've got over the embarrassment, Emma...you can read this...the NEW and LATEST Orwellian Register!

Hate Register to log UK children's taunts from 5 years old

(I would have linked to the Daily Mail's article on that, which is a little better, but of course, you'd have kittens about that, being a Paperist. So I thought this one would calm your shattered nerves a little more)

Great ain't it!!!

A little 5 year old, says something in complete innocence, not knowing what it means. He's told by his teachers, and they then log his words on to the new fun register, where those words remain until he leaves school so that he is privately 'branded' a nasty little shit by 'those who know all about these things'

You truly couldn't make it up really, could you?   

Cool Britannia is Rocking with Insanity, folks.


"Settle down, children. It's time to call the Register."

"Ooh, Miss, wot one are we 'avin' today?"

"We're having The Hate Register, Jimmy, that's the one I like best, because it gives me the chance to not only let you children know what a nasty bunch of little shits I think you are, but for me to prove it!! Yes, Jimmy, I can now PROVE it, you see, because I've been writing down every word you've ever said that upset me!"

"But, Miss....I only said you looked like a Russian Shot Putter, 'cos you do, Miss!"

"Be quiet, Jimmy! I have you now! I have you on The Register, and I'll make damned certain that it follows you to your GRAVE! Do you hear me?"

"Yes, Miss"

Jimmy sighed and whispered to his mate, "I suppose this is still better than when she takes 'The Home Educators Register' because that one makes her froth at the mouth and all those muscles in 'er arms stand out, almost as much as the ones on 'er neck"

Alfie tried not to laugh.

"'Ere, Jimmy, wot you like, eh!"

Jimmy winked...

Miss B was frothing quietly at her desk...and her lips curled up into a sick smile as she addressed the little boy..

"Jimmy James, did you, or did you not, tell Miranda Posethelwaite that she was a Lesbian, last Tuesday morning?"

"Yeah, Miss, course I did. She looked just like that girl on Eastenders, Miss, that's why..and she was a Lesbian, Miss. See?"

Miss B smirked, picked up her pen and wrote "Sexist Bigot!" beside Jimmy's name....and her mouth curled up, ever so slightly at the corners....

Jimmy was thinking about watching Blue Peter when he got home and whether his Mum would give them fishcakes and chips for tea....He loved those. His mouth began to water at the mere thought....

And behind the desk, Miss B's mouth was watering, for very different reasons...

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 06:33 PM

"I would also point out that nNON home educated children also get murdered, killed, poisoned, treated horrifically and a whole lot more."

Actually, a report on BBC radio only this week (following the murder of another child who had been taken out of the school system to be "home educated") said that there are twice as many children on the government's At Risk register who are being home educated than there are in the general population. This is clearly not a denigration of people who home educate their children for legitimate reasons, it is an acknowledgement that some very abusive parents/guardians take advantage of the relative lack of monitoring which exists in the home education sector to make their children "disappear".

I would have thought any registers and monitoring which would make this more difficult, or prevented it from happening altogether, would be welcomed. I'm happy for my child to be on a government register, if it means some poor abused kid is less likely to slip through the cracks.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 06:33 PM

Emma, I understand far more than even you do. I particularly understand far more about Home Education. (Miss 'Archer' dashes off to become Head of Edukashon Otherwise and take over the world) ;0)

I also....helllloooooeeeeee....READ, as in READING type READ the report from Education Otherwise, in their monthly magazine, where they informed us all that Home Educators would be having a flag beside their child's name on this new register (see Contact Point link above) because they were deemed at greater risk than school educated children.   They knew this because they had been at the meeting where it was discussed. Ring them up, if you don't believe me.



Oh, and by the way, I only accept public apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 06:36 PM

"And behind the desk, Miss B's mouth was watering, for very different reasons..."


What an odd little scenario. You live in a very sick world inside your head, Lizzie. I'm just glad it's not the one that the rest of us inhabit.