BS: £800 fine for low school attendance

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 06:19 AM

The information provided by Joe Offer was very interesting; I had not heard of Charter schools before.
The use of a mentor and facilities, that would not normally be available in the home, sounds like an excellent idea.

I can appreciate however his comment that their popularity may further diminish the effectiveness of local public education provision. in some kind of downward spiral

In attempting to find out more about this system I discovered that it is subject to strong criticism from some homeschoolers such as Eugene Newman, president of Christian Home Educators of Michigan and father of ten homeschooled children,
on the basis that -

'Public education isn't necessary and it is destructive of our society'
'A home-based charter school will bring the government into the home.'
and
'Home-based charter schools would affirm in a new way the illegitimate role the state plays in education. Dependency, any dependency on state programs, in any area, will always be at the expense of the private moral duty of citizens."


It is this aspect of registration and a minimum of monitoring recommended in the Badman Report that seems to have inflamed home educators in the UK

However, the report also recommends that local authorities should work in collaboration with schools and colleges to offer more support to home educated students, including access to libraries, sports facilities, music tuition and work experience and also must provide support for home educating children and young people to find appropriate examination centres and provide entries free to all home educated candidates who have demonstrated sufficiently their preparedness through routine monitoring, for all DCSF funded qualifications.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 06:26 AM

Home educating children varies from country to country and is illegal in some countries. It is growing in the UK and there is help available for those parents who would like/need it.

For the majority of parents it would be impossible for them to educate their children properly at home - time constraints, confidence etc. If a child becomes a school refuser through, for example, bullying then there are special, qualified and sympathetic teachers provided by the education system who will go to the home and tutor that child. A parent/guardian has to be present in the home to protect both the child and the tutor. If a parent/guardian cannot be present because of work commitments then there are other 'safe' places where the child can be taught - not necessarily at a centre but it could be the local public library for instance.

Many parents are not able or even willing to home educate their child. Those children are catered for by the many good/very good/excellent teachers in the many good/very good/excellent schools that we have in the UK.

There are systems in place to identify poor teachers/poor schools and to address those problems.

As for fining parents who keep their child off school at the drop of a hat with no substitute education in place then there has to be something to discourage this because every child is entitled to an education.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 07:31 AM

As for fining parents who keep their child off school at the drop of a hat with no substitute education in place

You know I was just thinking about that! This thread started in support, apparantly, of parents who keep their children off school with NO substiture education. The parents who are fined, usualy as a last resort, because their children are not being educated at all. While I agree with many of the posts on home education and can see how it works well for some I cannot understand why anyone would support children not being educated at all. Perhaps it's all to do with returning to those old fasioned values we keep being told about:-) Keep the riff-raff out of schools. Education is just for the middle classes driving around the countryside in their Austin 7's whilst bemoaning the youngsters who show no respect...

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 11:14 AM

I forgot to mention this bit in my amazement at how twisted things can get...

From Lizzie -

David, I tried to help you last night, out of concern for your grandson.

I was wrong to do this, because even THAT you have used to belittle me.


I find that deeply disturbing.


I will not bother again.

Does anyone apart from me remember HOW that help was offered and how ironic the 'deeply disturbing' remark is?

Well, I can show you. This is how the 'helping me' post was phrased -

David, forget this fucking stupid game you like to play and listen!! I've just turned the computer back on to come and tell you this, because it's worrying me.

"I realy do appreciate your concern. Apparently everyone in the world is expected to get the rotovirus before they are two years old! That is something that realy does concern me!"


Whoever told you that was talking rubbish. Yes, it's common, but it's not THAT common. Also, it can be really awful, and I mean mega AWFUL.
My son slipped into unconsciousness for near on two days when he had it. He was utterly and completely dehydrated. I have never seen a little soul go downhill so rapidly and so frighteningly.

So, in a nutshell, to 'help' me, she began with a personal attack (forget this fucking stupid game etc.) It then went on to state that my verifyable statment about everyone getting it was rubbish. Well, OK - That was part right. It was not everyone before the age of two, but everyone before the edge of five. Rubbish though? I think not. It then went on to Lizzie's favourite subject, Herself. No matter what has happened to anyone it has always happened to Lizzie, worse, more often, differently and with knobs on.

How was any of this suppose to be helping me? For anyone to even imagine it would is what is realy disturbing...

I am getting heartily sick of it all.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 11:21 AM

Then stop taking the bait Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 11:39 AM

I can't BWM - I use it on my own rod:-) Besides, I like to do my bit to help the attention deficient...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 11:55 AM

It was not bait, Backwoodsman, so please, back off!

It was not a personal attack, Dave!!!

It was ANGER and CONCERN!!!!!


It took me TWENTY bloody minutes to turn my computer back ON. It was late, I'd already gone to bed! But I got back out of bed, came in here...

WHY????

Because MY SON had that virus...and he was in Derriford Hospital, touch and go, for the first few days, as his whole body started to close down with the shocking dehydration he suffered!

I got through the ENTIRE vast linen cupboard on that ward in ONE night, David! You've seen rotovirus in its mild form, well trust me, in it's worst it is shocking, absoulutely shocking!!!

I was helped by the nursing staff who were themselves worn out and overworked...

That is all irrelevant really, but it came out because my mind was filled with the horrors of that terrible ordeal when I thought I'd lose my son. My mind takes me write back to that time, runs the whole film through again in every minute detail!

I was worried sick that your grandson may of started to go down the same road, so I wanted to tell you what the worst case scenario was and not to take any shite from anyone.


I AM tired of the fucking stupig 'games' you all play with me, to while away your hours, throwing the most incredibly unfeeling, uncaring remarks my way, about my children, my intelligence, my family, my personal life.

There are some fucking nasty people in here, some of whom follow me round the internet. Why? What the fuck for?????????????? WHY THE FUCK would they put down little 'secret codes' to me to tell me, in secret, that they know something else about me?????

Come on, Folkiefuckingdave, come out here and fight like a man, you creep! Stop creeping round the internet, then telling your buddies about it, so that they too put down their coded messages...eh, 'ruth'.....

GEEZ, you people make me sick!

And Show of Hands think that *******I******* am unpleasant??????



NEVER again, Dave, will I take the trouble to do something like that. I was deeply concerned for your grandson, NOTHING else!! But here again..here you go with the Oh, Lizzie's had this, Lizzie's had that and she's had it worse..."

Well, YES I DID!! My son was incredibly ill! So make of that what the fuck you want!

And don't go crying into your cup about this message, because you have been baiting and baiting me for message after message!!




Here...another way of looking at things!

"Dear Lizzie,

Thank you so much for telling me about your son. I realise, after having been such a total shite to you for so long in here, that it was a big step for you to overcome your anger. But you did, and you did it for my grandson.

Thankfully, he is now OK, but I realise he could well have taken a turn for the worse, and your message may well have then proved invaluable.

I hope that from now on we can be friends and I am backing right off, as of this moment, from constantly belittling your words, your children, your life, your intelligence. I am no longer going to be part of this disgusting Witch Hunt...

I have judged you so wrongly, and I apologise.

Best wishes
Dave"



Hah! Fat chance, eh!



Oh..and if Chris Murray is in here, or out there, someone tell her, and John Freeman that I am NOT on the BBC board, and whoever started the Reg Meuross thread was NOT me.   BUt again, out they come with their pompous "We KNOW it's you, Lizzie!" Well, it fucking wasn't, so didn't all of you look dumb!   

Leave me alone, get out of my life, out of my face.


Oh...and could someone please explain to me why, if school is so fucking wonderful, my country and the USA, where the National Curriculum started, are now both SOOOOO dumbed down to the point of total disbelief????

Thank you.



And Joe, I'm sorry, but these people drive me nuts!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 12:03 PM

"Leave me alone, get out of my life, out of my face. "LC

Good God! You could do the same thing by just leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 12:07 PM

Lizzie, please get some professional help before its too late.

I say this out of concern, not out of anger.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 12:07 PM

Has she gone?
Is it safe to come out now?
Only asking....

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: jeddy
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 12:17 PM

lizzie,
i have waited a little to reply to you.
i think my last post was a little harsh, i am sorry if you feel this is some kind of conspiricy. it isn't.

when you shut down your FB page, it would have been nice if you had posted thats what you were going to do. even just the day before then shut it down. but it seems as though you cared nothing for the friends you did have and how they would take it.

personal feelings aside.
i see why people get so angry and frustrated talking to you. take the worry about dave. rather than making him feel better, you probably worried the hell out of him.
sometimes too much info is worse than not knowing.
where you could have said my son had it, it is very nasty, so please be watchful and be ready to phone an ambulance. you went on about your experiance, i can only imagine how scary that was, but may have just scared the bloke senseless needlessly.

i think the problem is that you don't relate your feelings to anyone else.maybe if you could be abit more empathetic it would help you communicate?

i know you feel victimised and there is a way to stop this happening. if you wanted it to.
it often comes across as you want and need the attention that being controversial brings.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 12:23 PM

And don't go crying into your cup about this message

How about laughing my socks off?

I have no doubt that your lad was very poorly indeed. I have 5 kids and now 1 grandson. I have had my share of nasty disieses and life threatening situations.

Diabetes
Pnemonia
Bronchalitus
Asthma
Rotovirus
Depression
Stress

I could go on (and on and on) but I prefer not to make every thread about me. I prefer to listen to the advice of EXPERTS and, up to now, they have generaly done well by us. This latest incident was well controlled and did not develop into a serious case of dehydration because we followed the advice given.

Had I followed the advice of the greengrocer or the man who sells newspapers I am sure our poor little lad would have been a lot worse as well. Or maybe I should follow your advice?

You've seen rotovirus in its mild form

Judging by a few comments on the internet, never having seen me or my grandson and having no medical training at all you have diagnosed my grandson as having a 'mild form' of rotovirus? And you wonder why people shake their heads in disbelief?

Get a grip on reality before you do some serious damge to someone daft enough to believe you.

Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 12:27 PM

I really do not think that this thread or any of the comments in it are worth getting upset over; it just is not worth it!

Home education is right for some children and school is right for others. Some parents do a wonderful job educating their children at home and others don't. The same applies to schools. It's as simple as that.

As for the fines - it is the right of every child to have an education. Something has to be done to ensure that each child has that opportunity. I've forgotten everything that was said at the start of the thread so this could already have been answered but presumably it works the same way as some other fines in that people are means tested to determine how much they can afford to pay or to determine if there is some other more appropriate action that can be taken. If there was a blanket fine then some already disadvantaged child could be even more disadvantaged and that would be unfair.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 12:57 PM

Actually Ralph, you should worry about sending your children to school in Sidmouth,because my daughter was taught by a paedeophile, as I've said many times before. He was sent to prison for it, put on suicide watch.

The allegation that someone is a paedophile is a very serious one. Especially when the writer says it has been repeated on a number of occasions. But even more especially when it isn't true.

"The judge, who said Toye did not represent a threat of serious sexual harm to children, ordered destruction of the photographic equipment, and ordered him to go on the Sex Offenders Register."

The allegation that someone was sent to prison is a very serious one, especially when it isn't true. He was sentenced to a supervision order.

The story is here.

I will also point out that the daughter in question was either home educated or taught in this school.

I will also point out to Joe Offer before this is moderated off the board that by allowing this allegation to remain on the Mudcat, and because of the peculiar nature of the English libel law - Mudcat is equally liable for this false allegation.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 01:14 PM

I agree.
Home education can be the best way to go for some children, but (as in the US apparently) it has to be monitored, and criteria have to be met.
Just hoiking your child out of school and not teaching them anything worthwhile, achieves nothing.
Which is why (UK) we have built an education and health system that is still "Free at the point of need"
Yes, of course it's imperfect, underfunded, etc, etc.
Isn't any government run institution guilty of that?
But here are my thoughts.(Worth nothing, obviously!)

I'd rather have health and education run the way it is here (however rickety the system) than in other countries I could mention.
Back to the origins of this thread 800 pound fine for low school attendance? I'd make it 8000 pounds. (and a jail sentence for child abuse)
Let's just leave parenting to parents, and teaching to teachers.
And lets just hope that teachers and parents do their jobs correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 01:17 PM

BTW -

It took me TWENTY bloody minutes to turn my computer back ON.

Ever thought of taking a computer course? It should realy take no longer than two or three.

Just being helpful - honest.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 01:20 PM

From the link:
"Defence counsel Michael Brabin said Toye had been so worried about his behaviour that he had sought help, but the person from whom he sought counselling was without qualification in that sort of work and it was an ineffective exercise."

It would have been nice if the person from whom he sought counseling had competent training in the subject, nicht wahr?

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 02:44 PM

The man, whose name I have NOT put into this thread, by the way..was held in prison, on remand. Whilst there, he was put on suicide watch.

He liked little girls in underwear. He took photos of young girls in their underwear. He had rigged up cameras under desks and in other places, for this purpose. He then put them on the internet.

He is apparently NOT a danger to children, sexually (yeah, right) according to the judge, who, for some strange reason, then put him on the Sex Offenders Register and banned him from ever working with children again. Despite him saying the man was not a danger to children..makes sense, huh?

I knew that man. I used to walk past him every day. I spoke to him at Parents Evenings, I spoke to him in passing, I knew where he lived...In fact, folkiedave, I know a helluva lot more about him than you do. He was one of my daughter's teachers. He used to tell me how much he liked my daughter..(yeah, right) Luckily, she always wore trousers to school, so her underwear was never on show, and therefore, I'd assume he never took photos, but who the hell knows, eh?

So, stick that up yer 'I know everything better than you!' jumper...folkiedave...

And while we're at it, shall we ask that same judge to pass sentence on creepy men who follow women around the internet, folkiedave??????? Shall we show him the **evidence**??????????

Because if you don't stop fucking stop doing what you're doing, I'm going to be bringing charges against you, mate...and the evidence is all here, on Mudcat...of the way you stalk me!

David, thank you for your sarcasm. I'm sure it made you laugh. My computer though, is old. So is my brain, but that is not yet old enough to not be able to work out how to turn a computer on. I went through the boring machinations of my old computer for your grandson.
I will never bother again.

Jade, stop lecturing me. You're really getting up my nose! I can whatever I fucking well want with my Facebook page, as can every other person on the planet! I do not have to explain to ANYONE why I am closing it down, or even THAT I am closing it down. The fact you took it so personally shows the craziness of the power of Facebook, where people become so stressed out because of something so utterly insignificant.   I have said on here many times, that I don't like Facebook and have closed various pages I've made, down.

And I will write as *I* want to, not as YOU want me to. I have never told you how to write, nor what to write, nor commented on your writing in any way, other than to say I'm fair fed up with your behaviour towards me.   You are completely free to behave that way though, but do NOT tell me how to write, or try to analyse me all the time. My brain is mine, not yours, and ONLY I know how it works, because ONLY I have the key to it. I have been told by the Moaning Minnies, for over 6 years that I should write in a way they like, they want, they demand. I've told them all, at different times, to fook off and leave me be. If you don't like what I write, you don't have to read it....it really is that simple, just see my name and stroll on by...

Interesting, Ralph, that now Joe has come forward about home education, you've become a changed man....Hmmmmmmmm


"Back to the origins of this thread 800 pound fine for low school attendance? I'd make it 8000 pounds. (and a jail sentence for child abuse)"

There are many teachers who are guilty of child abuse...It is mental abuse that very often lasts a lifetime. They should be fined FAR more than £8,000 for it...and lose their jobs too.


"Let's just leave parenting to parents, and teaching to teachers."

Why?

Parents are teachers also. We teach our children to feed, to crawl, to walk, to talk, to dress themselves, to eat, to cook, to look after their belongings, to read, to sit, to listen, to bathe, to brush their teeth, to wash their hair, to mend their clothes, to have a bank account, to read, to add up, to take away, to times their tables, to garden, to plant seeds, to find their way on public transport, to use libraries, to shop, to use the internet, to love music, to love, to tolerate, to read maps, to pack their suitcases, to do their washing, their ironing, to be polite, to be kind, to be thoughtful, to be empathetic...

What the fuck makes you think we can't teach them about any other subject under the sun????????

With computers we can travel to The British Museum, the British Library, we can look at any subject under the sun, and find out amazing things about those subjects!

ALL parents are teachers, even if they are bad parents.
Not ALL teachers are parents..

Confirm in a child's mind that they never have to Conform!

School restricts, rules and regulates.

Home Education brings Freedom of thought, lessons, speech, time, life.

I have seen the results, many of you have not. I have seen BOTH sides of the coin, and I know in which method of learning my children have flourished.

They do not learn to anyone's criteria, other than their own, and that is what has made them the fascinating, magical and intelligent young people that they are.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 03:03 PM

Oh Dear.....

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 03:19 PM

Actually Lizzie. I have changed not one jot. Joes information about the education system in the states was very welcome and enlightening, honestly stated in a calm and considered way. I agreed with him that the US way of home tutoring could teach our government a thing or two.
Your problem being?
At least in the US, there are checks and balances when it comes to home tutoring. Somebody in their education system keeps an eye on what the parents are doing.
Obviously that doesn't happen here. Does anyone from the local education authority check up as to how you are progressing as a home tutor?
Unlikely. Which is not a good thing.
I just hope that none of the people supervising you as a home tutor are reading this.. You might not have any children left to teach. Apart from your antagonistic attitude, your language would not be permitted in any classroom I know of.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 03:29 PM

Frankly I wouldn't leave the parenting to 'some' parents let alone the teaching!

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 03:34 PM

I was not being sarcastic, Lizzie. Just trying to help! How come it is OK for you to do that but not me? Even an old computer can be made to speed up with the right care and attention. Look at the start-up, the registry, disk fragmentation. All that sort of stuff would be covered in a computer course. What is wrong with suggesting it?

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 03:53 PM

Well I am not permitted to talk to Lizzie, nor about Lizzie but I trust I can quote Lizzie: -

"Confirm in a child's mind that they never have to Conform!"

Well in that case - no comment.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 03:55 PM

"....Somebody in their education system keeps an eye on what the parents are doing..."

Oh yes, because we mustn't EVER think that parents are capable of looking after their children, let alone teaching them, must we?...


"Obviously that doesn't happen here Does anyone from the local education authority check up as to how you are progressing as a home tutor?"

I have stated, SO many times, Ralph that I have an Education Welfare Officer....a former teacher of long standing, who has 'checked up on me' and my children ever since they came out of school. He comes once a year. If he was worried, he'd come far more often. He has NEVER been more than once a year, because we have always been given the highest grade the Corporate Education Bastards will give you, which is a mere 'Satisfactory', no matter how well you are doing.

This man is also a grandparent now and he is worried sick about his grandchildren. The stress that his own children are putting on their children to achieve, achieve, ACHIEVE, is driving he and his wife to the brink of deep worry. They have extra tuition, they moved schools to go to the one with the best grades, they demand high results...and their children are so little..around 6 and 8. It depresses both of these wonderful people.

They asked us round to tea, I've told you this before...and I sat talking to his wife for ages. She was paralysed in a terrible car accident 20 years back. She was a maths teacher. People have tried to get her back into some form of educating again, but she wants nothing to do with it, because she highly disapproves of the rigourous and constant testing, the workload so many children have and the fact that now, so many children are not judged on WHO they are, but ONLY on their exam results.

Her husband made my kids feel wonderful about themselves..praise, praise and more praise. He brought his National Geographic magazine collection round for them to have, masses of magazines. He brings music, classical and jazz, he shares his photographs, as he's a wonderful photographer..and he tells them stories that inspire...

He's distraught about what is happening inside The System..utterly distraught.

He teaches the children who are expelled. He gives them his very soul to try to inspire....and he does the same with my children..did, as my daughter is now in her 20s. We were so very, very fortunate. Many home educators have EWOs who are like a lot of the people in here, Little Hitlers who demand they do things their way...which of course, they have no right to do.

I do not have to let any EWO see my children. I always have done. They used to bake cakes for him, which he'd gobble up happily, whilst he told us about his life, spoke to my children..all the while cleverly finding out information on their education...

No, Ralph, my abilities as a teacher for my children were NEVER brought into question. I was praised, as much as my children were..


"...Unlikely. Which is not a good thing."

See above, and yes...I accept public apologies.


"I just hope that none of the people supervising you as a home tutor are reading this.. You might not have any children left to teach. Apart from your antagonistic attitude, your language would not be permitted in any classroom I know of."

In most classrooms, it is commonspeak, if you are a young person...because they, like me, are fed up to their back teeth with the fucking Edukashon System. It is that system, and you lot in here, who made me swear as I do, when I write. I do not swear in front of my children..they do not swear at all. I will, however, use some great anglosaxon words when confronted with complete plonkers, be they politicians, teachers, or messageboard users...I particularly will swear when confronted with perverted stalkers who follow me round the internet giving me 'secret signs' on here...because they truly are utter scumbags, in my opinion, of course.

And my EWO would more than likely join me in the use of language because he is as angry as me about what is going on...and why so many people are sticking their heads into Ostrichland, whilst dashing out to make sure Little Johnny is the best in his class, so they can tell all the other Ostriches...not seeing that Little Johnny may well be falling apart, because he doesn't want extra tuition, he simply wants to be.........a child.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: jeddy
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 03:59 PM

thanks for the chuckle lizzie.

i am not telling you to change how you talk, merely trying to help you feel less like a victim of stalking. only i think you love it.

good idea to skip your posts, i used to until i realised how dangerous some of your posts can be.

ok, reality check time.
so it is ok to meet a boyfriend online, to be totally in love and have a soul connection, but not to care about people you have never met as friends online?????

DOUBLE STANDARDS or what?

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 04:02 PM

I wonder where Dan Brown get's his inspiration from?

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: jeddy
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 04:02 PM

thanks richard for finding this gem!!!!

"Confirm in a child's mind that they never have to Conform!"


rape thread anyone???
thats the reason i am, not exactly angry, but amazed at some of your attitudes.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 04:07 PM

To call someone a paedophile when they are no such thing is libel.

To say they were sentenced to prison when they were not is libel.

No matter what you say.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 04:08 PM

And to be honest I still haven't worked out what your daughter was doing at school when she was being home-educated.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Melissa
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 04:21 PM

LC: "It is that system, and you lot in here, who made me swear as I do, when I write."

Does that mean you aren't Responsible for the choices you make while posting?

If you're swearing because others 'made you', does that mean you swear in order to Comply with their wishes?

Maybe the big water between us means I just don't understand..

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 04:34 PM

"In most classrooms, it is commonspeak, if you are a young person..."

No, it isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 04:45 PM

I have also known several Education Welfare Officers, personally and through my job.

Their role is a professional one and they are required to carry out a number of statutory functions on behalf of the Local Education Authority (LEA)

They are required, like all such professionals, to work within a legal framework
This could include giving consideration to applying for Education Supervision Orders under section 36 of the Children Act which empowers local authorities to apply to the courts for an order in respect of any child of compulsory school age who is not being properly educated suited to their age, ability aptitude and any special educational needs

For this reason it is extremely critical that, while supporting parents wherever possible, the relationship always remains on strictly 'professional' terms - certainly not the one described in a previous post.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 05:11 PM

Good grief- it appears that I'm going to "attack' a certain person again. But I just don't want to let this go:

"It is that system, and you lot in here, who made me swear as I do, when I write. I do not swear in front of my children..they do not swear at all. I will, however, use some great anglosaxon words when confronted with complete plonkers, be they politicians, teachers, or messageboard users...I particularly will swear when confronted with perverted stalkers who follow me round the internet giving me 'secret signs' on here..."

Would your daughter, who is now in her 20s, be surprised at the language her exemplary mother uses online? Why not advise her to dip into Mudcat so that she can see how mistreated her mother is?

More to the point, no one makes you swear, OK? That mindset is the same one that many ne'erdo-wells- and I don't want to enumerate them - use to excuse their own behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 05:22 PM

"And to be honest I still haven't worked out what your daughter was doing at school when she was being home-educated. "

Then look up your notes on my family. You'll find the entire story there.

Our EWO was not a cold, calculationg person, who sat there ticking off tick boxes. He's the most inspirational man I have ever known, as a former teacher and as an Education Welfare Officer. He knew there was nothing he could give us apart from his support, so he gave us that in bucketloads.

You will find, if you read Education Otherwise, that many people have a tough time with cold, calculating, suspicious EWOs. Not all though, because some are lucky and meet magical people who support and inspire as much as possible.

"For this reason it is extremely critical that, while supporting parents wherever possible, the relationship always remains on strictly 'professional' terms - certainly not the one described in a previous post."

Luckily, Emma, neither you, nor the folks you know, were assigned to my children. I was blessed with someone who cared about them, deeply. He cared about all the young people in his care. He cared about the parents too, because he knew how hard it was to go against a system that has brainwashed so many, for so long.

And Jeremy Paxman is about to host 'Newsnight' shortly, where he'll be discussing the state of our Education System....and what can be done to improve it..

I do not know you, jeddy...and after your recent posts, I have absolutely no plans to know you.   With regard to the 'confirm' and 'conform' comment, being 'non-conformist' has nothing to do with not being responsible for your actions or behaviour.

Melissa. Excellent point. I hereby take absolute and full responsibility for using the f word, because I am so incensed at some of the people in here and their behaviour. They however, do not MAKE me do it, I choose to do it myself, because to use any other words than the ones I do would be doing some of them a gross injustice.

Oh..and jeddy, I am nobody's 'victim' but some people's prey. There is a huge difference.   

Personally, internet stalkers give me the creeps..and with regards to the 'rape' thread, I'm extraordinarily surprised that it doesn't give you the creeps as well, because in my opinion, men who become so obsessed with women are more than a little worrying. Women who also become obsessed with other women are equally as worrying, as are those who take the side of the internet stalker...

But heyho, you alls pays yer monies and takes yers choice..

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 05:25 PM

"Would your daughter, who is now in her 20s, be surprised at the language her exemplary mother uses online?"

Nope, because she knows about the pack mentality on here.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 05:27 PM

'Luckily, Emma, neither you, nor the folks you know, were assigned to my children'

At last something I can actually agree with :)

I thank you :)

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 05:36 PM

"To call someone a paedophile when they are no such thing is libel.

To say they were sentenced to prison when they were not is libel."



Noun 1. paedophile - an adult who is sexually attracted to children

The guy likes to look at little girls in underwear. What does that make him in your eyes...He went from looking at photos, to taking his own....to putting them on the internet...

Noun 1. paedophile - an adult who is sexually attracted to children


So, you're defending this man?   

I mean...come ON, I know you STALK me on the internet..but now, are you defending a man who is sexually attracted to children, as in a PAEDOPHILE?


He was sent to prison, on remand and whilst there he was put on Suicide Watch.


And now, I have to watch Jeremy Paxman talking about the school system

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 05:38 PM

Ooh, just listening right now...We're 17th in Reading and 24th in Maths...in some poll or other..We're behind Estonia!

Wow!

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 05:46 PM

Lizzie please PLEASE read your local paper again it says

"Voyeur teacher awaits sentence"

NOT Paedophile - voyeur - the man was sentanced to a 3 year suervision order after being found gulty on 'five charges of voyeurism'

You talk (at great length) about 'personal responsibilty' have you no sense of any responsibilty at all by asserting again this man is a peadophile on an internet site when we know that illiterate vigilantes are quite capable of attacking even the home of a female hospital pediatrician?

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 05:48 PM

Ooh...a secondary school headmaster is busy telling us how stressed out the children are with all the examinations! And the teacher sitting next to him is agreeing! WOW!

He's saying how respect for teachers has definitely gone down and that 7/10 teachers believe standards in the classrooms have gone down, because kids are REALLY WEARY of being constantly tested, which New Labour has insisted upon doing.

He's saying how teachers have been drilled into getting children to pass tests, to get results...

Well, well.......well...

I have to go listen to a little more of this progamme...

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 05:52 PM

The judge says he was not a paedophile.

You are correct he was held on remand - that means he had not been proved guilty of anything. You said he was sentenced to prison - he wasn't.

That is what the newspaper reports of the day say. You told people to read them.

I did.

I am not defending him, I am pointing out that what you wrote is libellous and that under the laws of this country, not only you but by publishing it Mudcat is equally guilty.

That's all.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 06:46 PM

7/10 teachers believe standards in the classrooms have gone down

Ermmm... Are these the good teachers who are in a minority or the bad teachers that, according to you, are in the majority. You have already said that you belive that the majority of teachers are bad so why the big deal about 7/10 of them saying standards have gone down. I would guess, if they are bad teachers and they don't know what they are doing, then them saying things are getting worse must be a good thing?

Funny how 'facts' can be changed at will to suit the circumstances isn't it. But even if you now say the teachers DO know what they are talking about a 'drop' in standards is very subjective anyway. No indication what they are measuring against for instance. Not that that mens too much to some people.

I think I have just fallen down a rabbit hole.

`I don't know what you mean by "glory,"' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice objected.

`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

Not that I am attacking anyone by quoting stories at them...

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 06:58 PM

One cannot improve standards of education by removing children from education and encouraging them to learn less, or to ignore the subjects they do not like.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 07:08 PM

Working in schools very regularly, I have seen no evidence of kids being stressed out by too many exams. None. Most seem not particularly bothered about them, to be honest.

The thing I have observed, through working in a whole range of secondary schools, is that some schools are better than others. On the whole, this isn't necessarily down to catchment, or how well resourced the school is, or how much the kids are being tested. It is down, in my opinion, to how well structured the school environment is. The more slack the school, the more unstable the learning environment and the more stressed the kids generally seem. Any parent will understand this: kids feel secure when they are given consistent boundaries. A lack of structure and boundaries makes kids feel more stressed.

Structured environments can mean all kinds of things. It is not simply about kids sitting quietly and rigidly in rows at desks. The best schools provide clear guidelines for different kinds of teaching and learning, and provide the resources that allow these to be utilised. But what it does mean is that kids know and understand the rules, the rules are enforced, and the environment is managed and supportive. The schools where kids are expected to turn up on time, where uniform policy is strong, where there are very specific means of dealing with unacceptable behaviour, where policies about racist and bullying behaviour are clearly set out and enforced...these are the environments where kids seem the happiest, the most productive. There is a positive buzz from the minute you walk in the door.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 07:29 PM

"I am not defending him, I am pointing out that what you wrote is libellous and that under the laws of this country, not only you but by publishing it Mudcat is equally guilty."


Then I look forward to *you* removing ALL your libellous posts about me.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 03:52 AM

Just another bit of advice. I am sure it will be ignored or attacked but I will try anyway.

To be libellous, or slanderous in the case of spoken word, the statement needs to be both defamatory and false. Just defamatory will not do so you really need to prove the falsehood of the claim in any defamation case. Things, for instance, like 'The majority of teachers are bad' is both defamatory and untrue. Of course in this case as it is not against one specific person libel would not be found but I think it describes the situation. The addition of 'in my opinion' may help but I am not at all sure it removes all culpability.

All academic anyway. As we all know, we cannot remove our own posts. I would suggest a note to the moderation team with specific instances of libel would be the best way to get such posts removed. Of course it may be better to leave them there if you are considering legal action.

Again, just trying to help and I am sure that Richard would be better placed to give legal advice. He is another of those experts I keep going on about.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: MikeL2
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 04:56 AM

hi

I don't wish to take sides in what appears to have become a very personal topic but two articles in today's press do appear to be very pertinent to the didsussion.

1. Tesco, Britain leading private employer states that school leavers today " can't read, can't write and have attitude problems."
They go on to say " that in six out of ten schools fewer than half of the pupils gained Grade C in English and Maths".

2. OFSTED have classed one in ten schools to be in the lowest class compared with one in 25 in their previous last inspection. They also said " only 9% are considered outstanding compared with 19% in the same review period".

Perhaps Lizzie does have a point ???

cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:05 AM

This is not solicitor-client legal advice, merely general discussion. No duty of care to any person arises. I am not acting for any client in this post.

Actually DeG that is not correct. Truth is a defence rather than untruth being part of the cause of action. If material is defamatory it is up to a person seeking to establish "justification" as a defence to prove the truth.

Here is a website http://www.website-law.co.uk/resources/website-libel.html that is superficial but mostly not wrong, although fails to recognise the recent trend to treat ephemeral internet writings as slander rather than libel.

It does not deal fully with the question of who is liable for hosted material.

It is incomplete in its treatment of Reynolds privilege but that will not affect us in this case.

It fails to deal with "mere vulgar abuse".

It does not deal with the fact that a person responding to defamation of him has slightly more latitude in what he can say.

It also fails to deal with the fact that English libel law although in my view based on correct principles in most cases is regarded in teh USA with such hostility (in my view as a result of an incorrect approach to what the US constitutional position was intended to mean about "laws restricting freedom of speech") that there is a risk that the USA may enact legislation preventing the enforcement in the USA of UK defamation judgments.


"Most teachers are [insert epithet]" is not actionable because there is no identifiable plaintiff, unless there is other material that identifies a person about whom it is said. Also, it would be a form of trade libel to which other rules apply in that the words disparage a person (if spoken about a person) in his profession trade or calling.


The limitation period for defamation is one year, but in England that period runs afresh from each "publication". That is correct in my view but it is an unpopular rule with the media and intense lobbying has meant that it is likely to be changed some time so that limitation runs from first publication.

There is no form of what is commonly called "legal aid" for any form of defamation proceedings.

The conditional fee lawyers generally only take on big cases and they are unlikely to be interested in this microcosm unless they see it as a chance to get famous by breaking new ground on moderator liability, site operator liability, ISP liability, host liability, or the strained UK/US relationship over defamation law.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:11 AM

Like Dave said - go to an expert. Thanks for that Richard.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:11 AM

Of course, I fully expect that we will soon be treated to a display of expertise about defamation law from the resident heart surgery specialist/dog trainer/relationship counsellor/style guru/disability discrimination adviser/musicologist/etc.