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BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Mar 10 - 05:50 AM I don't realy think Ralph needs to explain his shop worker comment. It was not a slight on any of those remarkable, patient and long suffering crew that have to put up with the mad rants of the few day in, day out. Did I tell you my first two jobs were in retail? I actualy rode one of the last few grocers bikes (Granville of 'Open all Hours' style) making deliiveries for Redmans in Salfard. I also worked in Eccles market hall - On the handbag stall of all things! Anyhow - back to the point. It was obvious to anyone with a modicum of sense that Ralph was not having a go at shop workers. He was simply wondering why, with all the obvious skills some people have, they were not running the country instead of working in a shop. Maybe it is me, but if I ever wanted advice on what to buy, I would go to a shop assistant. If I wanted advice on how the education system is being run I would go to a teacher. Stupid I know, but that is me... :D (eG) |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Emma B Date: 08 Mar 10 - 05:53 AM 'but if I ever wanted advice on what to buy, I would go to a shop assistant.' Obviopsly you've never shopped at Dixons Dave :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: GUEST,Derecq Date: 08 Mar 10 - 11:04 AM I think you are all wrong about Lizzie and she needs to be congratulated. As well as working in a shop, doing open-heart surgery for Paul McCartney, making sure the whole dog population of South West England gets walked each day, advising parents with dyslexia on how to handle their teachers, giving her mother-in-law 24/7 hour attention, looking up everything anyone needs to know about autism and dyslexia so she can argue with people about it, making up web pages with a bloke from Canada, looking after American visitors and making sure their needs are met whilst in the UK, following up conspiracy theories, and posting replies to them, running a Show of Hands website, a Reg Meuross fan magazine, and a Bruce Murdoch fan club, She still manages to post on here and educate her son. Why not give one of these things up Lizzie? Preferably posting on here. Go look after your son. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 08 Mar 10 - 11:59 AM Well said Derecq, (Didn't I see you in a film last year?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 08 Mar 10 - 12:03 PM No, but I expect you listen to his radio show, Ralph. It's run under his other name, of Folkiedave. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 08 Mar 10 - 12:14 PM "Maybe it is me, but if I ever wanted advice on what to buy, I would go to a shop assistant. If I wanted advice on how the education system is being run I would go to a teacher. Stupid I know, but that is me..." I can assure there are very many shop assistants who haven't a clue about what they sell, nor an interest either. They are not bovvered at all. EXACTLY the same can be said for many teachers and 'their' education system. There are also excellent shop assistants who know their stock, their companies, inside out, who put their heart and soul into their jobs and do all they can to help their customers. EXACTLY the same can be said for excellent teachers who care about their pupils in the same way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Mar 10 - 01:07 PM Very sensible comment. So why insist on lumping them all together by condemning the whole 'edukashun' system? But my point is not about the good and bad, it is about the average or norm. I GENERALY ask shop assitants for advice because GENERALY they know what they are talking about. Just in the same way as MOST teachers are GENERALY good. Neither excelent or terrible. Just getting on with the job and making a pretty good job of it while some people insist that 'they' are ruining our children and not making the distinction between good and bad! Sorry but there are too many polar opposites here for me to make any sense of what is being said. DeG |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Mar 10 - 01:07 PM I just re-read that and realised that there can only be TWO polar opposites! Well - it is still one too many for me:-) D. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 08 Mar 10 - 01:22 PM I was referring to the film. "Morris a Life with bells on" A satire on an abstract Morris side. The lead character's name was Derecq. Who's Folkiedave? |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 08 Mar 10 - 01:24 PM "Very sensible comment. So why insist on lumping them all together by condemning the whole 'edukashun' system?" Dave, I have always said that I support brilliant teachers who care about their pupils. So many of the excellent teachers have left though. They have left because of 'The System' and the way they are no longer able to teach as THEY want to, in a way they KNOW works. Our Education Welfare Officer, a former teacher himself, of long-standing, as was his wife, before she was paralysed in a car accident, used to almost weep at what was happening inside The System, and believe you me, he KNEW! He knew that Home Education was growing on a rapid scale and he knew the reasons for most of that growth too. He dealt not only with the likes of us, but with the children who were expelled too. He used to turn up at their house, five days a week to deliver 5 hours of edukashon to a child that had no interest in learning. He was a wonderful man, understood kids inside out. He soon had them working alongside him and enjoying doing that work, because he'd used different methods to bring the children over to his side, to make them interested, to inspire them. They were entitled to 25 hours free home education a week. I think that may now have increased to full time hours, along the same hours as ordinary schooling. We, as home edcators, got nothing from the system, other than a yearly inspection (6 monthly if they were worried, but we never needed extra visits) and the top mark of 'satisfactory'. They never awarded anything higher to home educators, than 'satisfactory', no matter the calibre of the child, no matter their intelligence, the work they'd covered, the examinations, the degrees achieved, nothing, but NOTHING went above 'satisfactory'..which shows you the mean minded, mean spirited, narrow minded prats who are in The System, because they couldn't BEAR to think that ANY home educated child was better educated than if they had been at school. So bloody insulting! And I disagree with you about good teachers. They are NOT, imo, 'in general' but 'in the minority'. Most people only remember the good teachers, and they only remember a very few of those. They tend to stick in our minds because they were the ones who were kind, gentle and understanding to us, who made us laugh and feel good about our work and about ourselves. There are now more Factory Farm Schools than ever before in this country, vast souless places where thousands of children spend their secondary school life. Smaller schools have been closed down and centralised. Bit like Russia..? They were saying in the paper the other day that pupils and teachers alike are struggling in these mega schools. They breed trouble and fear, more often than not. I know. My daughter went to one such school and now, it is even BIGGER than it was then. Totally nuts! |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Mar 10 - 02:03 PM And I disagree with you about good teachers. They are NOT, imo, 'in general' but 'in the minority'. And there we have it. The point of disagreement. In my opinion they are, in the main, good. Like all other walks of life, apart from politics where they are all idiots, I believe the majority of people are good at what they do. The fact that you chose to believe the worse is pretty significant. In other things you tell us that you are optimistic, 'half full', positive. You frown upon people who are nay-sayers and yet, over this one point, you have decided that the majority of teachers are bad. Why is that? I am no psychologist so I will not even attempt to find out but one thing I will say. If you do not know one way or another, do not argue about it. Get the facts first. Argue from a solid standpoint. I am not going to quote any facts and figures but I am pretty sure that any survey will support the view that most people are good at what they do, enjoy it and give their all to make sure other people benefit. Whether they are shopkeepers or teachers. Give it up Lizzie. We are never going to change your mind. What makes you think you are going to change anyone elses? DeG BTW - I remember every single one of my teachers at secondary school. All but one were brilliant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 08 Mar 10 - 02:14 PM Then you were, imo, very lucky, David. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Mar 10 - 02:24 PM So, a very simple answer to all this fuss then. Lizzie believes that the majority of teachers are bad. And I disagree with you about good teachers. They are NOT, imo, 'in general' but 'in the minority'. The rest of us disagree for various reasons. It's very easy to prove or disprove I guess. Without getting emotional, particularly if you are a teacher or if someone close to you is, can anyone provide a guidline for what is a good or bad teacher and whether the majority of teachers are above or below that line. Nothing anecdotal please. Just the bare facts. Seemples. DeG |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Mar 10 - 02:27 PM BTW Lizzie - Don't take this so personaly. No-one is getting at you. There is no need to justify to anyone here or anywhere else that you made the right decision in taking your children out of the system. It was right for you. It was right for them. Other peoples experiences are different, that's all. D. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 08 Mar 10 - 03:16 PM Dave, many people are 'getting at me'...I am their prey, always have been, and you are friends with one of those folks. The whole point you have missed is that Home Educating families so very often know that school is absolutely wonderful for many children, as I've said so many times before. We do not have a problem with others sending their children to school. What I have a problem with is being told that home educating is bordering on the criminal, when 'the system' nearly made my child give up on life. She is far from alone. If you read home educating magazines you will read the same story, over and over again, of children who cannot cope with factory farm schools, tick boxes, exams, tests, pressure, being bawled at, being bullied. They are so often deeply sensitive children who need quiet lives, who WANT quiet lives and they are sent into places that literally drive them half mad with fear and worry. I would NEVER expect, let alone *force* a child to learn something they have no interest in, because I know that a child won't learn it. Why the hell should they? Who decides what a child learns in 'The System'? What makes them think they know what is best? "YOU MUST LEARN TO READ AND WRITE!" Some people can't. Yet they are able to build their own houses, be your builder, your plumber, whoever... "YOU MUST LEARN MATH!" Some people can't. Yet they get by OK, with simple sums that are needed for everyday life. "YOU MUST LEARN SCIENCE!" Some people may never want to. They love the magic that lies inside things, without ever wanting to know the scientific facts. Some adore History, some Geography, some are born Mechanics, some are Healers, some are simply wonderful at listening to others...They are artists, musicians, writers, potters or poets.. Everyone has something they are wonderful at, no matter how small the wonder might be. It is how nature has designed us, as a species, to have different skills, different interests, different brains which light up in different areas... The National Curriculum seeks to destory these natural gifts, turning off many children from their natural love for YEARS. Some never recover it, some do. Some adore the National Curriculum. They love to be told what to do, what is expected of them, and they thrive on achievement. That is right...for them. It is not right for all. You educate your child your way. I will not stop you. My children learnt their way, eventually, when they were free of The System, which was a System that poisoned their souls for a while. They are now free of that poison. Thank God. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 08 Mar 10 - 03:31 PM And Dave, I'm intrigued. A short while back you went bananas over a post of mine. It was the story of Jimmy James and The Hate Register. That Reigster is due to be brought into schools. Above here, at 11.04am, there is a post from someone who has come in as 'Guest' to post a deeply personal message about me. It is incorrect, it lies, it is deeply abusive, it is highly unpleasant, bullying and unkind... ...and yet, you have made no mention of it whatsoever. Why not? Why would complain about a story highlighting the dangers of a Hate Register, in the wrong hands, and yet you are perfectly happy to let that post about me stand, and to let others agree with that post, whilst not jumping to my defence in any way at all? I am not shouting 'victim' here, I'm merely puzzled about what I perceive to be deeply varying attitudes over some messages. There is no need to answer. Just a need for some thought, perhaps. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Mar 10 - 04:37 PM No need to be intrigued, Lizzie. Quite simple - I take no notice of guest posts. All the rest you have posted is aside to the main issue. You believe that the majority of teachers are bad. Other people, including myself, argue that the majority of teachers are good. Seeing as it is you that are making the argument it is generaly accepted that the onus of proof lies with you but I am quite happy to accept proof either way and I would also add that you could be right. I doubt it but never let it be said I am not open minded. In a nutshell - I am quite happy to accept PROOF that the majority of teachers are bad if you are willing to supply the hard evidence rather than the hearsay and anecdotes you usualy give. Either prove conclusively that most teachers are bad or stop saying it. Of course you don't have to provide proof but would that not make people wonder about your credibility? Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 08 Mar 10 - 04:54 PM OK, dave...you prove the majority of teachers are good. Off you go....it works both ways... "No need to be intrigued, Lizzie. Quite simple - I take no notice of guest posts." My, how convenient for you. Of course, had a 'Guest' posted wonderful, beautiful, magical, sparkling things about me, I've no doubt they'd have been shot to smithereens then 'enlightened' about the 'truth about Lizzie' Good job this thread isn't about Hypocrites, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Mar 10 - 05:09 PM OK - No problem even though it is the wrong way round. It is usualy the proposor of he argument that gets to start but fair enough, we will work to your rules. This should make you happy. It is a 2009 Ofsted report that states that inadequcy is 'soaring' in our schools. 1 in 13 schools, and their teachers I suppose, are now considered inadequate so I guess you are right. Oh, hang on, maybe my maths is wrong. Does 1 school in 13 being inadequate equate to the majority being bad? I realy must try harder. Back to you to provide this proof of the majority of teachers being bad I suppose:-( I realy don't know what you are on about in the second bit. I would have had no idea if the guest would have agreed with you either. I repeat once more. I take no notice of guest postings. What has hypocracy got to do with bad teaching or the price of fish? Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Mar 10 - 05:27 PM BTW - I should be at Swinton Folk Club but I am stuck on the computer 4 feet from the bathroom because my 11 month old grandson came back from London with rotovirus induced gastroenteritis. It is particulary easy to pass on as those who have had children know. For those that have no kids I'll spare you the details:-) I think it is the fault of someone else, probably a teacher, but I take full responsibilty for my actions because if I had not had a grandson I would not have got it. :D (eG) |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Emma B Date: 08 Mar 10 - 05:31 PM The problem with 'headlines' with emotive terms like 'soar' is that it is necessary to actually read the full report to read what is really behind such attention grabbing headlines The article posted by Dave points out that the increase in schools judged to be 'inadequate' in some way (not necessarily the standard of teaching) have increased to 7.5% of all schools inspected, compared with 4% six months ago However an explanation for this apparent 'increase' is also given by Ofsted "it is important to note that the new inspections have been focusing more on weaker schools and THIS COULD BE EXPECTED TO HAVE AN IMPACT ON OVERALL OUTCOMES" "Under the new arrangements, outstanding and good schools are now only inspected once within a five-year period, satisfactory schools are inspected every three years, and inadequate schools are visited regularly until they make the improvements necessary. We have also made it clear that every time an inspection framework is revised, expectations are raised too." My apologies for introducing despised facts Thank you |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 08 Mar 10 - 05:50 PM "Back to you to provide this proof of the majority of teachers being bad I suppose:-( " The headmaster who did SO much damage to my daughter and many within her Year Group, those who'd come before her, and those who came after, was finally ousted by the parents of that school. He got a new job....as an OFSTED inspector. So you'll excuse me if I don't believe the word of OFSTED. I have seen, with my own eyes, bad teachers, Dave. My daughter was messed up by them, as was my son, as was I when I was at school. Most of the people I know only remember a very few teachers with fondness. Rotovirus? My son was in hospital for nearly 10 days with that, when he was just 3 years old. It is the only time in his life he was in there and he was very poorly indeed. I hope your grandson makes a swift and full recovery. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:13 PM He seems fine now, thanks Lizzie. I realy do appreciate your concern. Apparently everyone in the world is expected to get the rotovirus before they are two years old! That is something that realy does concern me! Now, back to the point. You have asked for proof that the majority of teachers are good. I have provided it. You refuse to believe that proof. Where do we go now? If we are to rely on hearsay and anecdotes instead of concrete evidence where will it end up? I am not doubting your experience but why should I believe that yours is typical and not mine or Freds or Berts or anyone else's? It is only hard evidence that cuts the mustard. Where is yours? Dashing to the loo again Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:21 PM Oh - BTW, the OFSTED report was quite damning. When you say So you'll excuse me if I don't believe the word of OFSTED do you think that their findings are better or worse than they report? And what basis do you have for that view? What proportion of schools do you believe are inaequate and why? What, in other words, are the reasons you expect us to believe that the majority of teachers are bad? Just made it back:-) Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 08 Mar 10 - 07:17 PM David, forget this fucking stupid game you like to play and listen!! I've just turned the computer back on to come and tell you this, because it's worrying me. "I realy do appreciate your concern. Apparently everyone in the world is expected to get the rotovirus before they are two years old! That is something that realy does concern me!" Whoever told you that was talking rubbish. Yes, it's common, but it's not THAT common. Also, it can be really awful, and I mean mega AWFUL. My son slipped into unconsciousness for near on two days when he had it. He was utterly and completely dehydrated. I have never seen a little soul go downhill so rapidly and so frighteningly. IF things should start to get suddenly worse, then do not waste ANY time, do not take any crap from any GP who tries to fob you off, just get him to hospital FAST, because he'll need to be on a drip. They were deeply concerned about Josh, to the point where when I questioned if he'd get better, they just stared at me and looked awkward. That was it. From that moment on I didn't leave his side, other than to use the bathroom. I slept right next to him, held his hand 24/7, changed his bed hour after hour after hour with the sweet nurses who helped me as much as they could. Rotovirus can be **very** serious, so *please* read this and remember, because my son was quite a bit older than your grandson, but still it layed him out for that length of time. Afterwards, he was extremely weak, taking well over a week to recover enough to leave hospital. Forget everything else to do with this thread, and just make sure you keep a very close eye on him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: GUEST, Poxicat (NB perfectly consistent ID) Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:01 AM The actual facts about rotavirus, not that that will matter to some: - http://en.wikipedia.org/wi ki/Rotavirus
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator- |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:06 AM Sorry - my bad memory. It was by the age of 5, not 2. From the article kindly linked by Poxicat - By the age of five, nearly every child in the world has been infected with rotavirus at least once You see why people begin to doubt you, Lizzie, when you rely on anecdotes and one-off experiences rather than the confirmed facts? When most things you say go against what is actual fact and against most other peoples experience is it any wonder that it seems you are a lone voice? The important thing is that he was under the doctor and not 'fobbed off' by the GP. The doctor took it very seriously and confirmed that if he was to get any worse or show no signs of improvement bu last Thursday he was to go to hospital. Fortunately he did improve dramiticaly within the specified week and he is fine now. But the legacy lingers on in us carers! Oh, and btw, what is this fucking stupid game you like to play. It is now my turn to be intrigued. Do you mean the game of finding facts that do not fit your theories or simply the game of accepting real life? Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 09 Mar 10 - 07:36 AM The threshold in teaching was introduced about 10 years ago. You only have to look at how many teachers have crossed the threshold in teaching and are now on the post threshold pay scale to see how many good teachers there are in our schools today. Each step requires 2 years of assessment for each teacher including observations of classroom teaching and evidence from Performance Management Reviews. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 09 Mar 10 - 07:48 AM Thanks eanjay. I guess that means that the majority are classed as good? The excelent ones get a higher pay, the poor ones get less and the worst get the sack? |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 09 Mar 10 - 08:13 AM It is much more difficult for poor teachers to survive for long in schools these days. There are some very good teachers around whose expertise, commitment, professionalism etc. give many children a good experience during their school life. The pastoral side of teaching is just as important as the academic and there are some excellent form tutors and year heads. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 09 Mar 10 - 08:22 AM Thanks again eanjay. It is much more difficult for poor teachers to survive for long in schools these days. sort of says what I believed all along. Like I said before, the argument is simply about whether we believe Lizzies statement that And I disagree with you about good teachers. They are NOT, imo, 'in general' but 'in the minority'. or whether we belive that the majority of teachers are good. I know which I believe and I am not likely to be swayed, unless someone comes out with verifyable proof, and Lizzie is not likely to be swated even if proof is provided. You are perfectly entitled to your opinions, Lizzie, but no matter how often or how loud you proclaim them, they will not become facts I'm afraid. Sorry Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 09 Mar 10 - 08:37 AM I have a lot of experience in education and good teachers are most definitely not in the minority; there are some unsatisfactory teachers but these are the minority and they are soon discovered and things are put into place to change that. In all fairness to Lizzie she did say that it was "in her opinion" which she is entitled to have, but there isn't any actual evidence to support that opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:14 PM David, I tried to help you last night, out of concern for your grandson. I was wrong to do this, because even THAT you have used to belittle me. I find that deeply disturbing. I will not bother again. Sorry, eanjay, on this one, I am not with you at all. I have had exactly the opposite experience of teachers and I have dealt with many over the years at various schools. There are only two that I would refer to as 'teachers'...the rest were a complete waste of space, as far as I was concerned. They did not inspire my children in the slightest, in fact..the exact opposite. This is still going on with my friends' children who are having very similar problems with the 'I'm in charge' brigade. Brilliant teachers are born, not made. And they do a huge amount of good in this dumbed down world, changing children's lives around, inspiring them, often, for life. THAT is the role of a teacher, in my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:27 PM We'll agree to disagree then Lizzie. It's a shame that you and some of your friends have had bad experiences and I can understand your opinion based on those experiences although I do not agree with it and I think it is unfair to make sweeping generalisations about the whole teaching profession and education system based on those experiences. My opinion is based on my experiences too, but it is also based on facts and evidence ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:46 PM "My opinion is based on my experiences too, but it is also based on facts and evidence ;-) " So is mine, eanjay. The facts are that my children had to endure one helluva lot from teachers who should have known better. The evidence was plain to see in the deep unhappiness caused to both my children because of what had happened to them at school. Facts and Experience don't get much more personal than that. I always support excellent teachers, but I damn The System, because I have personally seen way too many children who have been damaged by it, heard too many parents deeply anxious about their children, their exams, the way it's affecting them all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:28 PM Lizzie, they may be facts - but those facts are still based on your experiences; you cannot judge the whole of a profession and the education system on those experiences. I'm not saying that what you are saying, based on your experiences, is wrong but your experiences do not represent the majority of experiences throughout the country so you cannot condemn the whole system. I am a qualified teacher with a lot of experience. I have taught in different schools, on temporary contracts, on permanent contracts, I have worked as a supply teacher, I have taught in a Young Offenders' Institution and I have been a REOTAS (Re-integration and Education Otherwise Than At School) tutor. I have held positions of responsibilty in schools and I have been an ITT (Initial Teacher Training) mentor - in other words I have been part of the teacher training process. I am also a mother. I have seen many wonderful teachers during my teaching career and many happy children. I have had a lot of experience and success teaching children with learning difficulties ~ in maths too :-) I understand what you are saying about teachers being born to teach but there are many wonderful teachers out there who have worked hard to become good teachers and I am sorry that your experience has been so poor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:35 PM Well, we should all be very grateful to Lizzie for one gem of information. Be Warned. Don't send your children to school in Sidmouth! (note to eanjay....It's not worth it. she doesn't and won't listen to reasoned arguement. It's been tried for years to no avail. My partner is a teacher, as is my sister, and many friends) |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 09 Mar 10 - 06:07 PM Lizzie - where did I belittle you? I did nothing but point out that you were wrong. Which is not belittling someone. It is what people do when involved in serious discussions and should it be proven that I was wrong I hope I would be grown up enough to accept it without rancour or cause to develop any conspiricy theories. Let us go back to the shop assistant analogy again. I know very little outside the narrow fields of music and high availability computing. If I want to buy something I ask a shop assistant. If I want to be educated I ask a teacher. If I want to avice on health matters I ask a doctor. I am 100% sure that you are a wonderful shop assistant and that shop keeping is indeed a noble profession. Was it Napoleon that called us a nation of shopkeepers? He meant it as in insult but it made everyone proud to be British - rightly so! Anyhow, I would ask your advice and believe it wholeheartedly, on any concern I had over the fitnes of purpose or merchantable quality of my purchses. But you must excuse me if I take not the slightest bit of notice if you offer unsolicited advice on matters as important as childrens health and education. Crazy though I may be I would rather trust the professionals. Oh, and those plumbers and builders that you mentioned that cannot read or write? Rememeber? I would not trust one of those to know the vital life-saving safety regulations on the latest gas or electrical equipment. If you chose to risk it then that is entirely up to you. Good luck. Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 09 Mar 10 - 06:15 PM BTW - Forgot to ask before. Which of the 'wolf pack' hunting you down am I supposed to be friends with? I have only met two of them. One once and the other twice. I do have a fond regard or everyone I have ever met here but I have probably communicated with you as much as anyone else on the mudcat! And I still don't know what 'game' I am playing. I would love to as I am usualy crap at games and only play the ones I know I can win! Let me in to the secret. Please! Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Mar 10 - 06:20 PM Actually Ralph, you should worry about sending your children to school in Sidmouth,because my daughter was taught by a paedeophile, as I've said many times before. He was sent to prison for it, put on suicide watch. His mate, another teacher, KNEW what he was doing, yet he did not tell the headmaster for a very long time. He simply told his mate he shouldn't be doing it. What this teacher was doing was getting young girls to reach up to a particular shelf, those girls who had skirts on...and of course, he had a camera built in there. The photos were then loaded up on to the internet. Luckily, someone found some of the photos and alerted the police. I don't know how they found them, but the whole story can be checked with The Sidmouth Herald, if you don't believe me. I'm not going through the many incidences of bad teachers again, as I've put them down here in Mudcat many times over, but I had those exact circumstances happen to me too, of teachers belittling me, yelling at me, getting cross because I did not understand...and it wasn't just me, but some of my friends as well. "...Take children out of school and "educate" them your way and you will produce the useless and incapable." And YOU call ME 'stupid'? That remark is so beneath contempt that it is barely worth replying to. Tell me, O Arrogant 'Poxi' One, what is it in your mind that has so brainwashed you into thinking, into believing that the ONLY way a child can learn is through school? Open your mind. "Anyone who thinks that children don't need to learn grammar, spelling, arithmetic and mathematics and the general need to obey rules is condemning those children to failure and misery.." My children know to question rules. They know to question those who make 'the rules' too. They are intelligent, kind, compassionate human beings. All the employers my daughter has worked for have asked her to stay on, told her there is always a job open for her, because they know she is intelligent, reliable, honest and hardworking. She does not need your approval, nor the stamp of 'THIS CHILD HAS BEEN SCHOOLED AND IS THEREFORE A PROPER HUMAN BEING' upon her head. And..for your information, had she decided to study Art at Exeter College, they'd have taken her without any GCSEs or A Levels, because they are deeply open-minded to Home Educated children these days, knowing them to have a love of learning and to not want to be destructive or abusive in class. My daughter chose an Open University course instead though, after the Head of Art had warned her that if she was expecting the College to be any different from school, she had to let her know that it wouldn't be, because there were still young people there who did not want to learn, who disrupted lessons and who were only there for the money they now get paid to stay in Further Education. My daughter has been there, done that, got the scars and is fed up to the back teeth of kids who don't want to learn. You choose your way. I'll choose mine. And I can assure you, that mine, is probably even better than yours, because the child learns what they have a love of. It starts with giving them a love of reading, a love of learning...and letting them understand that the world of books, the world of the internet, gives you an open library of thought, feelings, discoveries... So, 'Poxi' may I suggest that you take your 'STUPID' and shove it where The Turnip People live. Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 09 Mar 10 - 06:31 PM Lizzie, being taught by a paedophile is not the norm; you have been so unfortunate in your experiences. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: GUEST, Poxicat Date: 09 Mar 10 - 07:08 PM I'll lay you odds. If you understand how statistics work. Take the two populations - one the children who were school educated and the other the children who were home educated (or the idiots who bunked off). Now figure out (if you can) the proportion of the first population who are in the top decile of earners and the proportion of the second population. Now reverse it. Of the first population, what proportion are in the bottom decile of earners, and of the second population waht proportion are in the bottom decile. Quod erat demonstrandum. Or if you like, what proportions of the first population and the second commit suicide. Or what proportion of the first populations and the second are imprisoned at any time, or convicted of any offences at any time (juvenile or adult). It's a no-brainer. Rubbish finishes up at the tip. bottom |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Ebbie Date: 09 Mar 10 - 08:50 PM I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I do have some opinions on home schooling. In the US I don't believer it is considered odd nor that it puts children 'at risk'. Rather, in my experience, a family that homeschools tends to be considered 'hands on' parents with a great interest in seeing that their children do well without the distractions of problem children in the public schools and with the hope of getting the children safely past the peer pressures. The children that I know that were homeschooled are almost invariably ahead of their age groups in class levels and with higher grades. My daughter (in public schools all the way) homeschooled - in California - her three children for the first three grades then went to a dual set up, where she taught at home three days a week and they went to charter school for the other two days. My daughter does not have a teaching degree (She majored in English) but for those two days each week she taught as a teachers assistant in the same charter school. When they reached high school age, all three children went to parochial high school, I think it's called. One child now is in her second year at Arizona State, her twin is attending Community College, getting some of the required courses out of the way and working part time, the youngest child is a senior at high school. My niece and her husband in Oregon also homeschool their brood. Their two biological children attended public schools all the way: one is a young man who today doesn't seem to know what he wants out of life, the other is a young woman who will always do well. She is a Nurse Practitioner/Midwife who teaches several nursing courses annually at a local college; she got married several years ago and they now have a year old baby. When their children were half grown my niece and her husband started taking in foster children; they ended up adopting nine of them. All of them Fetal Alcohol affected, to a greater or lesser degree. They homeschooled every one of them. The first three - all about the same age - are about 22 years old now: two are now married and one just had a baby a few months ago. My niece and her husband's remaining children range in age from 8 to 14 or so. Oh- neither my niece nor her husband attended college. My whole point is that every case is different, but - at least in the US - home education does not trigger a black mark against the student, and that it needn't entail an either/or situation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Emma B Date: 09 Mar 10 - 09:53 PM The differences between the legislation relating to home schooling in America and in England has been discussed in a previous thread. As outlined in wiki "Homeschooling laws (in the US) can be divided into three categories: 1. In some states, homeschooling requirements are based on its treatment as a type of private school (California, Indiana, Texas, for example) In those states, homeschools are generally required to comply with the same laws that apply to other (usually non-accredited) schools. 2. In other states, homeschool requirements are based on the unique wording of the state's compulsory attendance statute without any specific reference to "homeschooling" (New Jersey, Maryland, for example). In those states, the requirements for homeschooling are set by the particular parameters of the compulsory attendance statute. 3. In other states (Maine, New Hampshire, Iowa, for example) homeschool requirements are based on a statute or group of statutes that specifically applies to homeschooling, although statutes often refer to homeschooling using other nomenclature (in Virginia, for example, the statutory nomenclature is "home instruction"; in South Dakota, it is "alternative instruction"; in Iowa, it is "competent private instruction"). In these states, the requirements for homeschooling are set out in the relevant statutes. While every state has some requirements, there is great diversity in the type, number, and level of burden imposed" However in the UK the number of children not attending school is not even known but is 'thought to be' between 20,000 and 50,000 ! Parents have to tell a local authority when they remove a child from school, but not that they are home educating, and local authorities can only insist on seeing children when there are very specific welfare concerns. A website that is aimed at home educators admits "Many new home teachers are surprised to find that ... in order to provide a child's education at home, parents (or any other home educator figures) are not required to have a teaching qualification, or in fact any subject or other qualification. Many home teaching parents are very surprised to discover the lack of rules or regulation monitoring the home educator. Again, new home educating parents may be surprised to find that they are not required to follow any curricula, including the National Curriculum, with their home school child, the teaching timetable (or indeed, a decision to learn without any kind of timetable or teaching structure) is open to the home schooling family to determine. Nor do home schooling families have to learn for or participate in national tests like Key Stage tests or Standard Assessment Tests - these are all non-compulsory. Home educators are not subject to any kind of formal assessment that might occur in schools, such as inspection or testing of pupils to check the education is being aptly provided." A recent independent review of elective home education in the UK looked at on the one hand, the absence of prescription in relation to home education and the ability of home educating families to refuse contact with their local authority, and, on the other, the duty on local authorities to ensure that every child in their area is receiving a suitable education and concluded that - All children and young people are entitled to a good education. This doesn't necessarily mean children have to go to school: many parents choose to educate their child at home but suggested closer monitoring of home educators, including a compulsory annual registration scheme and that that home educating families should provide some form of statement of their intended approach to their child's education. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Ebbie Date: 09 Mar 10 - 10:58 PM I agree, Emma B. I can't imagine not having to show results. In the US - at least in the states with which I'm familiar - parents/children mail their papers to a central body. In Alaska, it's a 'school district' that serves all communities. One Mudcatter that I know used to work for one such school district. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 10 Mar 10 - 02:36 AM Thanks Emma B. So, in the US, home schooling is allowed, with differing checks and balances between states, but the progress of children is monitored on a regular basis so, that the child can be seen to be getting a decent level of education. But, in the UK, no such system is in place? If so, why do people train to be teachers. Why not just have a child and say. "That qualifies me to teach"..... Personally, I would say I know about the sciences and music, but, I'd be rubbish at languages or literature.. I'm intrigued as to how a full time Mother (or Father obviously) with all the jobs that running a home entails, can also be an expert in such an array of subjects, up to GCSE standards? Even if it was possible. How many hours are there in the day to provide competent teaching for their children? |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Mar 10 - 03:48 AM I'm retired, so I was able to afford the time to homeschool my stepson through high school. We registered with a charter school that provided books, tutoring, laboratory classes, Rosetta Stone for German, and teaching for subjects I couldn't teach. We had as mentor teacher who monitored our progress and conducted testing. All expenses were paid by California taxes. It worked very well for us, but the mentor teacher complained that a lot of parents did not have the time or ability to give their children a good education at home. I have a friend who's a college professor (and sometime Mudcatter). he and his wife are homeschooling their children independently, without help from a charter school. Even though he's a professor, he gets hassled. I don't know if it's law yet, but there has been a proposal to require homeschooled California children to be taught under the supervision of a credentialed teacher. There are three homeschool charter schools in my area, and they seem to be quite popular and successful. The elementary schools in the area are low in enrollment and struggling financially, so charter schools can have a very bad effect on the regular schools. Still, I'm very glad I homeschooled Josh. He had problems all through grade school and hated going to school. Now he's in college, getting good grades, and really enjoying himself. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 10 Mar 10 - 04:14 AM Joe. Thanks for that insight from your side of the pond. Sadly, I don't think that the same checks and balances apply over here in the UK. And I think it is dangerous to allow parents to make such a (potentially) life changing decision about their childrens future education, without explicit counselling and support from experts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Mar 10 - 04:49 AM Ah well. I guess we just need to agree to disagree once again. I get no particular pleasure from banging my head on a wall but I feel it right, every now and again, to try reason and logic. It is obviously never going to work but I will probably try again in a week or two. And be accused, once again, of victimisation or bullying or some other such nonsense. I will add one thing to my list of experts to ask For advice on purchases I go to a shopkeeper For education I go to a teacher To get well I go to a doctor For a headache I go to one of these threads... :D (eG) |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Mar 10 - 05:31 AM Well, seeing as no-one else has claimed it - 200! |
