Vatican makes peace with Beatles

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 11:01 AM

Religious institutions should never ever write about art, other than their sacred art. Same with politicians and about science. Art and science are about freedom and "truth", institutions are about cohesion and organization.

"We are more popular than Jesus" was the scandalizing quotation in 1966. My own view is: a pop star should be popular, a religious leader should make unpopular demands. If Lennon had said "we are wiser than Jesus", Christians would have had a reason to be scandalized. (Besides, if I had to spend some time on an island with either Jesus or Lennon, I'm not sure whether I'd choose the latter, even though I would have a lot to talk about with him.)

The Vatican and other churches should have just withdrawn their criticism of the Beatles, nothing else. To top it all, the "Top 10" are anglocentric, a shame for a worldwide paper like the Osservatore.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 10:13 PM

I noticed that someone said they don't understand or like the beatles,
but one day they might understand their music. I'm not particularly
fond of their music either. I know it sounds like quasi-blasphemy.
It's not because I'm young, and don't care about the 60s and the
counter-culture, as someone else mentioned. I mostly like traditional
folk music, and other styles of music I like tend to be more complex
theory wise. Like Jazz music, for example. In fact, there are a lot of young people who do like the beatles.

I don't see why the church wouldn't make peace with them. I think that
if they originally said "we might be just as popular or even more
popular than Jesus", and laughed, then there might not have been
such a big fuss over it. But, we can say "coulda, woulda, shoulda,"
all we want, it doesn't change the fact that the Vatican gave them
the cold shoulder all those years.

I don't know a lot about young people who are Catholic, but I did notice that in my hometown, a lot of the Catholics similar to my age seemed to have stopped practicing their faith on a regular basis. (It could be the new choir, because they were just awful. The beatles sound better than they do.) I say that jokingly, because that's just
my opinion. I was one of the last to go to church on a regular basis before I converted to paganism. I'm considering going back to the church. We'll see within the next few months.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 06:53 PM

Well, you see Rowan

- re the pill, most Catholics that I had any contact with (well, the woman, even if the Husband never 'officially' knew - and then of course the 'unattached' were certainly not abstinent either!) - were on the pill anyway. As I said, not being one of that flock, it worried me not - NMP. After all Lutherans had reached a degree of accommodation over the centuries, having given up sending in armies and burning each others churches... :-)

It would have been nice, for more fuss to have been made over the 'anti-war' proclamation, but as to be expected by the cynics, earthly greed won out about money.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Rowan
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 06:36 PM

not being an RC myself, I didn't really give a sparrow's fart... :-)

At the time I saw a lot of despair around me, both from those in the church who thought the encyclical substantively dehumanised them and from those churchgoers who were in the anti-conscription movement (and against Australia's military involvement in Vietnam) who thought the church should have supported them rather than the govt.

But, neither has much to do with L'Osservatore Romano's current views on music. The editorials at the time might have been quite fulminatory.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 02:41 PM

"How do you get them to turn their IPods off long enough to listen"?

I suspect you have to make an impression on them before they get to the IPOD stage, or after...when they ar on to something else? Possibly this period in life is not a good "listen to what I have to say, from my experience" point?

I seem to remember having my ear to my transister radio alot during the Beatle period...I suspet many parents may have been thinking similar thoughts about that device at that point in time (?:)

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 02:49 AM

Well Rowan, not being an RC myself, I didn't really give a sparrow's fart... :-)

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Rowan
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 02:25 AM

(the CC was supporting the Vietnam war, not condemning it!)

This may be thread drift, but I guess there's already been quite a lot of drift.

My memory of this aspect of the late 60s and early 70s is now dimming but I suspect Foolestroupes' view may be coloured by his being in Brisbane, Queensland, while mine is certainly coloured by being in Melbourne, Victoria during the relevant period.

I do recall the relevant Pope issuing, at different times, a pair of documents. One was an Encyclical and the other was a Papal Bull; I have no idea of the relevant status of either, in regard to how "authoritative" they are. The earlier one dealt with contraception (De humanitas vitae?) and the local church hierarchy threatened hellfire, damnation and excommunication to any Catholic who dared even question its premises, contents, or pronouncements. There was thunder and lightning in most parishes and even the secular press.

The second document exhorted all governments who had troops in Vietnam to withdraw them (as I recall) as the Pope proclaimed they had no business being there. The Australian Catholic hierarchy's reaction to this latter document was complete and utter silence; to all extents and purposes it had not even been issued. At the time I put all the silence down to the fact that the Australian govt had introduced conscription to service its desire to send troops to the war in Vietnam and the Catholic hierarchy didn't wish to invite a public reaction to the then recent passage of State Aid to non-govt schools, whereby Catholic schools received seriously large amounts of money from the Commonwealth Govt.

Certainly, there was almost no dissension from the pulpit over the introduction and maintenance of conscription (those in the US would call it "the draft"), which would appear to support Fooles' comment I've quoted, but I suspect this was an interpretation by the Catholic hierarchy in Oz rather than a "universal view promulgated by the Universal Church", as I believe it has described itself.

Best of luck with the hierarchy's view on the Beatles.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Allen in Oz
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 01:48 AM

I see that " Achtung Baby" is listed as being in the Vatican Top 10 Albums..the Pope wanted it in for old times sake ( ah memories of those halcyon days )

AD

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 12:45 AM

"My generation held social justice as a primary concern - civil rights, feeding and housing the poor, working for peace, opposing capital punishment, and working for immigration reform and farmworker rights. The newer generation seek something else, the same thing they seek from the megachurches: self-affirmation and moral certitude."

Yep Joe, so this generation is just more self centred - or to put it less politely - selfish. They want to Look Good, not Do Good. Funny, but I remember some put downs of such people in the New Testament....

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 10:28 PM

Ed T posted a very telling quote: Slowly but surely, the beatnik hippy culture is becoming the stuff of grannies and geezers...In many ways, the practicing Catholics of generation x, y and z have more in common with their grandparents than their parents. The solid moral compass of the 1940s and 50s seems far more appealing than the peace, love, 'rock and roll' philosophy of the 1960s and 70s.

I'm quite worried about the newer generation of Catholics. My generation held social justice as a primary concern - civil rights, feeding and housing the poor, working for peace, opposing capital punishment, and working for immigration reform and farmworker rights. The newer generation seek something else, the same thing they seek from the megachurches: self-affirmation and moral certitude. That's probably too cynical a view. Maybe it's better to say that in today's world, there is a loss of a sense of "rootedness," and that sense of solid ground and direction may be what the newer generations are seeking. It's probably good, if it isn't taken to an extreme - but we live in a world of extremes nowadays.

If we can only get the younger people to spend a little time working with the poor, they turn around and see that there's a real need to look outside themselves - but getting them to take that first step is really difficult. How do you get them to turn their iPods off long enough to listen?

Hey, give me the peace, love, and rock 'n' roll....The Beatles make everything feel all right to me.

-Joe Geezer-

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 09:22 PM

QUOTE
The solid moral compass of the 1940s and 50s seems far more appealing than the peace, love, 'rock and roll' philosophy of the 1960s and 70s. . It helps to explain why Catholic beliefs, values and morals are doing well among Catholics, but support of organized Catholicism (particularly in the USA) is falling apart"
UNQUOTE

If that really is the case, then many of those 'publicly professing' to be 'among the faithful' are merely social hypocrites, for they know that unless they behave this hypocritical way in the USA, they will be bullied to conform. As I posted earlier in this thread:

QUOTE
Pam Spaulding, on Pam's House Blend, makes an excellent point, which is that the fate of DMC Pharmacy is a good example of how the Catholic Church makes assumptions about what American Catholics are like:

This is what happens when the Catholic Church overreaches, putting its head in the sand, thinking American Catholics in Chantilly, Va, which has 20K parishioners in the area and four local churches teeming with 30K additional followers of Papa Ratzi: 1) don't use birth control, 2) don't smoke, and 3) don't read porn.
UNQUOTE

The kids may care less, but their current easy lifestyle would not have been possible without the 60/70s generation's activities, fighting those dictating bullies supporting wars (the CC was supporting the Vietnam war, not condemning it!), such as this writer who is espousing exactly the same bullying "do as I say" hype that was current in the 60/70s. This pathetic viewpoint attack by someone blatantly biased, deliberately smears and overlooks the real moral ethics of many of those of that generation, but that sort of selfish brainwashing nonsense is only to be expected from those "who already KNOW all the correct answers, and not only is everybody else wrong, but you must ALL do it MY way". The Buddhists talk about how people often say "Only the view from MY window is correct, everybody else is wrong, so you MUST all come over here and only look through MY window" which is the cause of much bullying and suffering, when the best idea for Man to get along with his neighbour is to accept that they all also have valid views of the world.

I like that attitude better as I get older...

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 08:58 PM

Oh yes...they still are the Beetles to me:)

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 08:57 PM

Please not that this was not the full post/comment of this one person...but, it seems to relate to the topic to me.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 08:55 PM

No hell below us,
Above us only sky.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 08:54 PM

When reading about the Vatican and the Beetles...and read some pro and con comments from "grannies and geezers" (as named below), I wondered this topic, matters at all to young Roman Catholics....and what does...what is the future?   The internet comment below may be one viewpoint, or may represent more? It is from what seems to be a younger RC:


"Most Catholics I know, under the age of 30, could care less about the 1960s and the revolutions that decade inspired. Slowly but surely, the beatnik hippy culture is becoming the stuff of grannies and geezers. The 60s are over, (they have been for nearly 40 years), and America's youth are ready to move on. In many ways, the practicing Catholics of generation x, y and z have more in common with their grandparents than their parents. The solid moral compass of the 1940s and 50s seems far more appealing than the peace, love, 'rock and roll' philosophy of the 1960s and 70s. . It helps to explain why Catholic beliefs, values and morals are doing well among Catholics, but support of organized Catholicism (particularly in the USA) is falling apart"

.Posted by: John | Monday, January 23, 2006:
http://romancatholicblog.typepad.com/roman_catholic_blog/2006/01/the_catholic_ch.html

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 02:25 AM

I have an acquaintance who worked side-by-side with Ratzinger for a number of years. He says that personally, Ratzinger/Benedict is a very nice man - and an excellent pianist, by the way.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 09:08 PM

Well, admittedly I wasn't taking a great deal of notice, but at a glance he seemed like such a nice old chap in his general manner and appearance. Whereas the current Pope looks as though he eats kittens.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 08:35 PM

I still can't figure out how John Paul II was so popular. I didn't like him, and I think he dismantled much of the progress made by Vatican II. But as popes go, John Paul II was a rock star, and the mindless mob loved him.
I can't figure out why.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 05:41 PM

I've often thought JP11 should have been called 'George Ringo 1'. They missed their chance there - they really could have been almost as popular as the Beatles if only they'd listened to me.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 05:24 PM

SW, how about, you are behaving like a prat.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 04:49 PM

Gee, Frank, we have two other active threads on all that. This thread is about an article about the Beatles in the Vatican newspaper. How is that related to child abuse?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 04:31 PM

The Pope has abetted a criminal offense, child abuse. He should be arrested.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 04:40 AM

I think this (click) is the article referred to in the first post. I'm glad to see that L'Osservatore Romano publishes an article on music every once in a while. Hey, and there's U2 here. Gee, next thing you know, it will be publishing pinup photos on the second page, like those English newspapers....
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 03:50 AM

mmm Mousethief makes two interesting assumptions;

1. That I wish to grow up.

2. That I am an atheist.

Well, in answer to 1., I am not grown up, and have not been for 50 years or so. It is less stressful that way. Luckily, I was not a Catholic orphan / alter boy / choirboy.. Otherwise, I may have "grown up" before my time.

In answer to 2., where have you read that I am an atheist? What is an atheist? Be buggered if I know?

I also don't play the trombone, but trombone players don't have a sneering term to refer to me as? Why should superstitious people have a term of hate for me?

I can't be an atheist as I reckon that would mean I have made a pro active stance regarding religion. To be frank, I haven't made a pro active stance about religion any more than I make a pro active stance about needlework. Both being things that I am aware that some people enjoy, but has nothing to do with me.

Oh, and the only things I find "cool" are where I see the local B&Q heaving with people whilst a few paltry souls sit in a drafty old church saying it is wrong that 99.999% of the population don't do as they are told by the other few...

Grow up! Mea Culpa was a medieval control mechanism. If you can't get over it, go to see your GP and get a referral to a trick cyclist...

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 02:29 AM

"Since the Church is less than 2000 years old"

Ah there lies a problem - since a certain cleric centuries ago, stuffed up his sums, AD 0 is actually a certain date BC, as I remember, and of course it depends on when YOUR "Church" began. As I have seen Yahoo Answers questions that ask "Are Catholics Christians?" I despair of the ignorant....


"one wonders exactly when the 'paper trail' began"

The answer to when the paper trail began was in the video I pointed to. As I remember, before 100 Ad....

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: beeliner
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 01:16 AM

'Sex Priests and Secret Codes: The Catholic Church's 2,000-Year Paper Trail of Sexual Abuse', Doyle et al, Volt Press, Los Angeles, 2005.

Volt Press, eh? Sounds electrifying.

Since the Church is less than 2000 years old, one wonders exactly when the 'paper trail' began.

Also, is there a comma after sex in the title? (I always preferred a cigarette).

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 12:52 AM

I would add that I am not an atheist [indeed I think I might take it on myself to say that, in general, WE are not atheists] because I think it in any way "cool", whatever you may have meant by that allegation: but simply because it is the only view that strikes me as making any sort of mature, grown-up, sense.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 12:48 AM

Well, perhaps you think you don't strike such attitudes re atheists, mt; but then how would you describe the comment I am responding to as other than, the word I chose, 'patronising'? And even if you don't, it would be idle to deny that there are many of the 'faithful' who do.

~M~

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 12:20 AM

Michael: I respect your right to persist in your faith, mousethief; but am at a loss as to why you imagine that your holding it makes you in some way more mature [whence your patronsising 'grow up'] than us atheists.

No, it's not that my holding it makes me more mature. It's my not playing silly "I'm cooler than you are because I'm a[n a]theist" games that makes me more mature. I don't go onto threads where a bunch of atheists are talking and make snide remarks about how much better I am than they because I believe in God. You do the reciprocal. I find that kind of behaviour immature whether I find it in atheists or theists. Ergo my comment.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 12:10 AM

===God this kind of smug triumphalism gets tiresome. Grow up, atheists.===

I respect your right to persist in your faith, mousethief; but am at a loss as to why you imagine that your holding it makes you in some way more mature [whence your patronsising 'grow up'] than us atheists.

It is, after all, children who depend on fairy-tales for their moral instruction and their ability to cope. And we regard your fatuous and irrational beliefs (I am not trying to be merely offensive but simply to stress how we see it/them) as no better than fairy tales; entirely dispensable to anyone who wants to fit responsibly and morally into adult human society, where one will be better off without such pathetic props.


So grow up yourself, mate.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 05:15 PM

I think they should have had the sense to not show their new acceptance of the Beatles at this particular moment in history. It looks bad, if nothing else. mg

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 04:54 PM

Gee, isn't it nice that somebody in the Vatican likes the Beatles?

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 04:50 PM

SW: Of course, as I am not superstitious, my view will be dismissed by shallow people who still cling onto the hope there are fairies at the bottom of the garden....

God this kind of smug triumphalism gets tiresome. Grow up, atheists.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 04:42 PM

This is the best thier hindsight has to offer?

I had great respect for the Jesuit order but this emant nothing to the order in Rochester when after a brief inquisition I was judged to be a threat to the community for operating a secular clinical hypnosis practice. They chose a humane way to cause great suffering and economic woe and spent many thousands of dollars to defeat their perceived threat.
To me the Jesuit order of today is resting on the laurels of yesterday. They strive to teach their own to have a conscience, but not feel obligated to obey their conscience.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 05:30 AM

Steam on Willie

L in C

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 05:05 AM

I do sympathise with Joe Offer and others when they complain that anything to do with Catholicism ends up being rendered down into discussions about buggering priests.

However, until the Vatican stops this silly infallibility nonsense and accepts they are not above question, your average Catholic has to put up with being linked to the medieval attitudes of their church bosses.

Either the Vatican doesn't represent the Catholic position or it does. If it doesn't, then flog the paintings and sculptures to pay for aid in poor countries, or if it does, then be prepared to be linked to the incompetent dealings with serious crimes. Hearing the secretary of state say that peodophilia is linked to homosexuality, or the other joker saying that criticism of the church is the same as anti semitism or the other one dismissing it all as rumour and mischief....

It is bad enough that these jokers try telling people how to run their lives, but worse still, they believe things that don't exist, never did exist and never can exist. They use this fantasy as a control mechanism. Silly me... buggering children IS a control mechanism... The church was set up as it was useful to those who wanted the masses to be downtrodden. (Not just Christianity, but the reason for existence of the God concept in general.)

Of course, as I am not superstitious, my view will be dismissed by shallow people who still cling onto the hope there are fairies at the bottom of the garden....

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 03:44 AM

"How much penance do we have to do for the sins of a few of our priests?"

Hmmm... just in case it was missed I requote from an earlier post...

QUOTE
In 2002, according to devout Catholic columnist Ross Douthat, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger spoke the following words to an audience in Spain:

I am personally convinced that the constant presence in the press of the sins of Catholic priests, especially in the United States, is a planned campaign ... to discredit the church.

On April 10, the New York Times—the apparent center of this "planned campaign"—reprinted a copy of a letter personally signed by Ratzinger in 1985. The letter urged lenience in the case of the Rev. Stephen Kiesle, who had tied up and sexually tormented two small boys on church property in California. Kiesle's superiors had written to Ratzinger's office in Rome, beseeching him to remove the criminal from the priesthood. The man who is now his holiness the pope was full of urgent moral advice in response. "The good of the Universal Church," he wrote, should be uppermost in the mind. It should be understood that "particularly regarding the young age" of Father Kiesle, there might be great "detriment" caused "within the community of Christ's faithful" if he were to be removed.
UNQUOTE

??!! Sigh... "Take the bastard out and shoot him" some redneck Aussies might say...

As long as he remains in charge, his sincerity seems suspect (and probably doesn't help ordinary believers look good either), but of course, ordinary believers can't expel The Pope, no matter what he does...

I do feel sorry for honest sincere believing Roman Catholics, even though I was raised a Lutheran. :-)

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 03:25 AM

Fair point Joe, as I said above:

"I have no reason to suggest that on average Catholics are any more or less 'sinful' than the rest of us. However, the 'leadership' of their Church is covering up crimes. The cover up says much more about the 'leadership' tham it does the followers.

Best wishes

L in C "

This thread is about "Vatican makes peace with Beatles" not what rank & file Catholics think about music.

Fiddling whilst Rome burns?

I'm not sure what penance really means. Prosecutions of rapists is what is needed and prosecutions of those who covered up. After that you will all have to decide if and why you want to be part of an organisation that is guilty of all those terible things.

Best wishes

L in C

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 01:50 AM

Les in Chorlton says: "Doesn't it seem strange that in the midst of the biggest moral crisis in a long time the CC is pontigicating about pop music?"

So, Les, since some members of the Catholic Church molested children, does that mean that the rest of us Catholics are not allowed to express opinions on music?

The child molesters and the bishops who protected them, are in deep shit right now, as they deserve to be. But can't the rest of us Catholics be allowed to go on with life? How much penance do we have to do for the sins of a few of our priests?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 01:22 AM

By coincidence:
http://hungrybeast.abc.net.au/stories/beast-file-history-catholic-church-sex-scandal

This page has the video of the show segment,and many links (not given here) to the research material
~~~~~~~~~~
The final Beast File for season two looks at the Catholic Church's response to child sex abuse and the 2000-year paper trail of Church documents showing this first became an issue in the years following Jesus' death.

Over the years, a Vatican officials have blamed child sex abuse by priests on everything from homosexuality to the media. Recently, in a letter of apology to Irish Catholics, Pope Benedict XIV, appeared to blame the abuse on the secularisation and fast-paced change associated with modern society.

But as this Beast File shows, modern society has little to do with it and documents linking priests to child abuse go back almost 2000 years. Most of the information for this story was garnered from the following four books, which are great sources for anyone looking for more information.

- 'The Power and the Glory: Inside the Dark Heart of John Paul II's Vatican, David Yallop, Constable & Robinson Ltd, London, 2007.

- 'Sex Priests and Secret Codes: The Catholic Church's 2,000-Year Paper Trail of Sexual Abuse', Doyle et al, Volt Press, Los Angeles, 2005.

- 'Fallen Order: Intrigue, Heresy, and Scandal in the Rome of Galileo and Caravaggio', Karen Liebreich, Grove Press, New York, 2004.

- Peter Damian, 'Book of Gomorrah: An Eleventh-Century Treatise against Clerical Homosexual Practices', Ed. P Payer, Wilfrid Laurier University Press, 1982.

If you want to have a look around online for more information, here is a quick guide.

There are a couple of good sites that have translations of and commentary on the Didache. As with many of the documents cited in this Beast File, there are a variety of translations and the usual historical debate over exact dates.

If it's information on the Council of Elvira you're after, one of the best places to look is here and this is a great source on the scholar and monk Saint Bede. The last book on the list above is the best source around on the 'Book of Gomorrah', but this article also provides some fantastic background on Pope Leo IX and his response.

The 'Decree (or Decretum) of Gratian' by Gratian of Bologna was the first instalment in a series of important canonical texts called the Corpus Iuris Canonici. You can find lots more information and links here. For those interested in the role played by Pope Pius V's 'Horrendum' this commentary in the Independent, helps put it into context.

The 'Sacramentum Poenitentiae' is considered the definitive Catholic Church document on child sex abuse and solicitation by priests. Plenty of information and links can be found here, and the full Latin text (for those countless people who still learn Latin) can be found here.

The 1917 and 1962 documents we refer to in the Beast File are the 'Code of Canon Law' and the 'Crime of Soliciting' respectively. Information on these texts, as well as former Cardinal Ratzinger's 2001 'Letter of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith' can all be found on the Vatican website. The recently released 2003 guidelines calling for child sex abuse cases to be referred to police can also be found on the Vatican website here.

It should be noted that some of these texts deal with issues such as homosexuality and bestiality as well as child sex abuse. There is also debate in many cases over the exact dates of the earlier texts. We tried to take the most conservative or widely supported dates in the piece but we do recognise that not every historian agrees on the timing.
~~~~~~~~
The show segment showed that originally, the Church writers urged that the offenders be turned over to secular authorities for punishment. The pendulum swung though, and eventually after hundreds of years, the Church began urging that this should all be hidden from the secular authorities, and only handled in secret by the Church alone. Looks it's starting to swing back...

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:19 PM

I don't comment on here by accident, Mr / Ms mg Do you?

L in C

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 03:10 PM

You don't think this is a deliberate diversion? mg

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 03:05 PM

Note to self: Never start any thread about anything about the Catholic Church. It will devolve into the same old wrangling about sexual abuse as every other thread about the Catholic Church. Some people just can't help themselves and have no sense of "context". Note ends.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 09:52 AM

"I think the Vatican — they've got more to talk about than the Beatles" quote Ringo Starr

A related opinion piece...from a Canadian RC journalist:http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/1177065.html

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 09:16 AM

"I also reckon his disdain of the Catholic church would have been at least as strong as Lennons."(sic)

Yeah. Maybe he'll come back and chase the pedophiles and their enablers out of the church like he once chased the moneychangers from the temple. While he's here he can chase anti-science, jingoistic hypocrites out of America's religious community.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 08:24 AM

it's a matter of perspective.

For me, John Lennon is bigger than Jesus. That is because I am in awe of his music and his positive effect on society.

Now, the concept of Jesus is used to good end by many good people, but I cannot get excited about Jesus as he was possibly an abstraction or amalgam of reputations of many political agitators. if you take away the impossible nonsense about defying laws of physics, then any real person called Jesus may have had a few good ideas, but I bet he didn't strum a mean guitar and write wonderful songs full of irony....

I also reckon his disdain of the Catholic church would have been at least as strong as Lennons.

I am glad the Vatican have made peace. As there are many Catholics in Liverpool, it was rather silly not to. After all, they need all the members they can get right now.

Above us only sky.

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 07:39 AM

I suspect the Vatican likes the white album, because of the following song...that may have a number of meanings:)


Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
No one will be watching us
Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
No one will be watching us
Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
Why don't we do it in the road
No one will be watching us
Why don't we do it in the road

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:22 AM

Very clear Mr/Ms Foulestroupe. I have no reason to suggest that on average Catholics are any more or less 'sinful' than the rest of us. However, the 'leadership' of their Church is covering up crimes. The cover up says much more about the 'leadership' tham it does the followers.

Best wishes

L in C

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:08 AM

Aussies safer in a strip club than a church, figures show         
http://www.sexparty.org.au/index.php/news/local-news/688-aussies-safer-in-a-strip-club-than-a-church-figures-show
Written by Brenden Hills | News.com.au   
Tuesday, 13 April 2010 03:17

THEY may be holy places of worship and reflection, but new figures show you may not be as safe in a NSW church as you are at a strip club or in a brothel.

The latest data, compiled by the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research, showed 1600 people were charged with committing a range of 27 offences in the state's "places of worship'' in 2008.

Surprisingly, the figures showed only 282 people were charged in premises classified as adult entertainment over the same offences.

Bureau director Don Wedderburn said the data showed people were just as likely to be assaulted or robbed in the sanctity of a church as they were on the streets.

"Most people would think of churches and synagogues as sanctuaries in society,'' he said.

"But maybe that's naive, because the statistics show they are likely to rob, assault or steal from people there like anywhere else. The figures are genuinely surprising.''

A breakdown of the figures showed that 85 people were assaulted in places of worship, compared to 66 at an adult entertainment premises.

According to the report, places of worship include churches, synagogues, monasteries, mosques, convents, cathedrals and chapels.

Premises listed under adult entertainment included strip clubs, sex shops, brothels, massage parlours, homosexual clubs, gaming houses as well as gambling clubs.

Places of worship were also ahead on sexual offences (16), theft from motor vehicles (33), resisting arrest (seven) and liquor offences (10).

Harassment and threatening behaviour at places of worship (30) was more than double that of adult entertainment (13).

Two people were charged with possessing or using marijuana in places of worship. The figure was a 90 per cent decrease on the previous year, when 20 people were charged with the offence.

Only one person was charged with the offence at an adult entertainment premises in 2008.

Source: http://www.news.com.au/

Subject: RE: Vatican makes peace with Beatles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:01 AM

We Can't Let the Pope Decide Who's a Criminal
http://www.sexparty.org.au/index.php/news/os-news/690-we-cant-let-the-pope-decide-whos-a-criminal
Written by Christopher Hitchens | Slate.com   
Tuesday, 13 April 2010 03:44

In 2002, according to devout Catholic columnist Ross Douthat, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger spoke the following words to an audience in Spain:

I am personally convinced that the constant presence in the press of the sins of Catholic priests, especially in the United States, is a planned campaign ... to discredit the church.

On April 10, the New York Times—the apparent center of this "planned campaign"—reprinted a copy of a letter personally signed by Ratzinger in 1985. The letter urged lenience in the case of the Rev. Stephen Kiesle, who had tied up and sexually tormented two small boys on church property in California. Kiesle's superiors had written to Ratzinger's office in Rome, beseeching him to remove the criminal from the priesthood. The man who is now his holiness the pope was full of urgent moral advice in response. "The good of the Universal Church," he wrote, should be uppermost in the mind. It should be understood that "particularly regarding the young age" of Father Kiesle, there might be great "detriment" caused "within the community of Christ's faithful" if he were to be removed. The good father was then aged 38. His victims—not that their tender ages of 11 and 13 seem to have mattered—were children. In the ensuing decades, Kiesle went on to ruin the lives of several more children and was finally jailed by the secular authorities on a felony molestation charge in 2004. All this might have been avoided if he had been handed over to justice right away and if the Oakland diocese had called the police rather than written to the office in Rome where it was Ratzinger's job to muffle and suppress such distressing questions.

Source: http://www.slate.com/