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BS: Christmas Truce (1914)

DigiTrad:
CHRISTMAS 1914
CHRISTMAS IN THE TRENCHES


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GUEST,Musket 06 Jan 14 - 11:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jan 14 - 10:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jan 14 - 09:52 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jan 14 - 08:17 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Jan 14 - 07:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jan 14 - 07:01 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Jan 14 - 06:41 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jan 14 - 06:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jan 14 - 06:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jan 14 - 05:09 AM
GUEST,Musket 06 Jan 14 - 04:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jan 14 - 04:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jan 14 - 04:21 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jan 14 - 04:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jan 14 - 04:12 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jan 14 - 03:58 AM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Jan 14 - 10:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Jan 14 - 10:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Jan 14 - 08:18 PM
GUEST,Paul Burke 05 Jan 14 - 03:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jan 14 - 03:10 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Jan 14 - 02:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jan 14 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,Musket 05 Jan 14 - 01:59 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Jan 14 - 01:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jan 14 - 12:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jan 14 - 12:06 PM
GUEST,Musket 05 Jan 14 - 11:55 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jan 14 - 11:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jan 14 - 06:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jan 14 - 05:19 AM
GUEST,Musket 05 Jan 14 - 05:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jan 14 - 04:19 AM
GUEST,Musket 04 Jan 14 - 04:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jan 14 - 01:25 PM
Greg F. 04 Jan 14 - 01:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jan 14 - 12:58 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Jan 14 - 12:17 PM
KB in Iowa 04 Jan 14 - 11:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jan 14 - 10:35 AM
Greg F. 04 Jan 14 - 09:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jan 14 - 06:43 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jan 14 - 06:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jan 14 - 05:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jan 14 - 05:24 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jan 14 - 04:47 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jan 14 - 04:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jan 14 - 01:10 AM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Jan 14 - 08:56 PM
KB in Iowa 03 Jan 14 - 07:35 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 11:07 AM

As you seem to be looking at The Independent, (you quoted the wrong person, wrong gender by the way Keith, do keep up..) let's see who else writes in that paper..

Ah! An article defending the butcher of The Somme and saying how well led everybody was, and how the politicians were bang on, didn't have to lie or exaggerate.

You must add the author to your list of credible people who write in newspapers. His name? Oh.. Nigel Farage. Rather odd that you and he share a view? Unless... Oh.

In the meantime, I notice he gave a speech praising Enoch Powell's rivers of blood speech yesterday. You must be rather proud of him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 10:46 AM

Jim.
You've actually produced a tiny minority and ignored the general views

If that is true, where are all the "general view" historians?
In ten weeks, you and all your mates have found...... er, none.
How "general view" can it be?
I found a couple more to add to my "tiny minority" just since yesterday.
I am not even sure how many I have now.


The fact remains, I have produced numerous quotes from many historians contradicting your version of history.

As you can not find any, not even one, to contradict mine, the debate is over, and you lost.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 09:52 AM

The German people also believed that they had no choice but to make a war which they believe had been forced on them, and overwhelmingly supported it.

That may well be true, but our people were fighting a defensive war against their aggression.

Nor is it actually particularly significant what the views of a number of academic historians might be at a particular time.

I strongly disagree.
What is the point of historians and research if their findings can just be dismissed by you.
How do we know what history to teach our kids?

We get our history from our historians, and that history is constantly being refined and improved.
Are you saying, like Musket, that historians should know better?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 08:17 AM

"Why would I claim such shit."
Seems your stock-in-trade
Any lone voice who dismisses argument as "casting pearls before swine" and making statements such as "I am probably the only person in the world who did read all that stuff Jim." is some sort of meglomanic moron
Top of the world ma
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 07:57 AM

The German people also believed that they had no choice but to make a war which they believe had been forced on them, and overwhelmingly supported it.

Whether or not there was support for the war on either side is not the point.

Nor is it actually particularly significant what the views of a number of academic historians might be at a particular time. Such things ebb and flow, and it is doubtful whether there is ever any final and unambiguously correct "verdict of history".

The point is that this was was a catastrophe that has continued to have disastrous consequences throughout the last century, and is continuing to do so. Terrible mistakes were made by political and military leaders which contributed to this. How far it it right to see them as guilty or stupid in making their decisions are interesting enough questions, but not particularly significant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 07:01 AM

Kevin.
The term is confusing because it is the second round of revisionism after Liddel Hart, Clark and co.
You do not describe my view, which is simply this.

Britain had no choice but to resist the German onslaught.
The British people overwhelmingly understood and accepted that.
The British army was not badly led.

Jim.
How could I have produced quotes from all?!
Why would I claim such shit.

The fact remains, I have produced numerous quotes from many historians contradicting your version of history.

If you can not find one to contradict mine, the debate is over, and you lose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 06:41 AM

I note that Keith now appears to have accepted that it is correct at this stage to use the term "revisionist" to refer to those sharing his views.   

These terms do get confusing, as when the term "conservative" is applies to Communists in the context of modern Russia.

One thing I find puzzling in Keith's posts is that he seems under the impression that those who see the Great War as a disaster that could have been avoided, or believe that terrible mistakes were made by those organising the killing also believe that the war was generally unpopular throughout. That is not a view I have ever come across. Sadly the reverse appears to have been the case well into the war on both sides, as is generally the case in wars.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 06:35 AM

"You can discuss whatever you like but the fact remains, I have produced numerous quotes from many historians contradicting your version of history"
Used to be all modern historians - good soldiers never give ground
You've actually produced a tiny minority and ignored the general views - "general - not General - you'd never contradict an officer now, would you)
"You can discuss whatever you like "
That's damned big of you.
It appears that soldiers having a right to expect the promises they were given before they were sent to be slaughtered and our right to discuss the fulfillment of those promises is an alien concept to you.
As you were - and will always be private.
Pip-pip
Jim Caroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 06:16 AM

Perhaps you though Chris. Newton was a she.
He wrote in the Indie yesterday.

"Critics have dismissed this history and military history in general as jingoistic. But if you read the works of Sheffield, Philpott and others, you will find that this caricature misses the mark. Revisionists come from across the political spectrum. Their works are based on years of scholarly archival research. Moreover, revisionists do criticise cases of poor decision-making where they consider that the evidence justifies it."
"The durability and credibility of revisionism is reflected through the fact that this body of work continues to grow. New books will be published this year. And there are large cohorts of First World War doctoral students in British universities, who will be building on this work over the next few years."


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 05:09 AM

If it is on the BBC website, you can not just dismiss it musket.
It gives credibility.
The historians BBC commissioned clearly contradict your version of History while supporting mine.

But then, we have not found one single historian yet who does not contradict you or support me.
That strongly suggests I was right all along, and you lot wrong.
I am satisfied with that and have no more to say.

But wait!
There is one.
"she"

Have you remembered her name yet muppet?
When did she appear in the Indie?
What did she say?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:59 AM

Great that we have found a soldier still alive who was there!

Private Baldrick seems to agree with most of the pre sanitisation accounts.

I reckon it is hilarious that Keith says it must be true because it is on The BBC website. At the same time, his soulmate Michael Gove is saying BBC is a left wing plot. Alan Clark is coming in for some flack mind. I suppose being dead precludes paying him to rewrite history in the same way Hastings & co seem to be these days.

You couldn't make it up...

But many are doing recently, it seems.






Wibble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:24 AM

you are now expressing views that would disbar you from membership of the BNP as being too openly extreme.

"now expressing"
I never have, but the lie you put up was from years ago anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:21 AM

You can discuss whatever you like but the fact remains, I have produced numerous quotes from many historians contradicting your version of history.

If you can not find one to contradict mine, the debate is over, and you lose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:18 AM

Oh no - not the dreaded 'thread drift' gambit!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:12 AM

And he follows the lying, personal attack with several changes of subject.
You are so predictable when you lose Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 14 - 03:58 AM

"True enough attempts to rally the Trades Unions and the left to oppose the war failed. And the same happened in Germany."
That was the line of the left throughout Europe at the time.
The same line was adopted at the outbreak of WW2, when they claimed that workers should not be fighting workers.
I have to confess, until I read Richard M Watt's remarkable book, 'The Kings Depart' I had never realised how near to success the German workers came to overthrowing the system in the aftermath of the war.
Far from returning to "a land fit for heroes to live in" British soldiers returned from the trenches to conditions far worse than when they left.
Disaffected soldiers who couldn't find peacetime employment were sent to Ireland in the form of the Black and Tans and Auxiliaries to suppress the Irish demands for independence
They had been so dehumanised by their experiences in the war that they gained a reputation for brutality that remains today.
In 1926, following the coal-owners policy of cutting wages and increasing hours in the pits, soldiers were sent in to help break the strike - again, the brutality used became legendary - a previously volunteer army had been quickly turned into a conscripted tool of the state - worker against worker.
Coincidentally, last night we watched an extremely moving depiction of the miners strike that followed the General Strike in parts of the North of England and Scotland.
Scenes depicted soldiers brutalising striking miners (some of them war veterans - including decorated heroes) and their families, backed by the newly emerged British Fascist Party, who smashed up the soup kitchens and beat up demonstraters.
The authenticity of the events portrayed were fully confirmed by interviews with members of some of the striking miner's families at the beginning and end of the film.
The film 'There is a Happy Land' was set in Fife, in Scotland and was a BBC Scotland/Scottish Theatre Workshop production - one of the co-writers was Peter Cox, the author of the excellent book on the Radio Ballads, 'Set Into Song' - very highly recommended.
Fascinating to see how recently revealed documents show that Scum Thatcher planned to use the army yet again against striking miners - leopards - spots and all that.
"It is also a nasty lie."
I've yet to hear a B.N.P. spokesman declare in public that "all male Pakistanis.... implant"
Now that's what I call a serious accusation!!   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 10:31 PM

Here is how the words read in German:

Nehmt auf unseren Streit mit dem Feind:
aus sinkender Hand werfen wir Euch
Die Fackel zu, die Eure sei, sie hoch zu halten.
Brecht Ihr den Bund mit uns, die wir sterben
So werden wir nicht schlafen, obgleich Mohn wächst
Auf Flanderns Feldern


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 10:22 PM

The fatal thing was the sentiment so well expressed in the last lines of In Flanders Fields, written in early 1915:

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
   The torch; be yours to hold it high.
   If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
         In Flanders fields.


It's the losing gamblers temptation, the feeling that if you don't carry on all that you have lost in lost in vain. But reinforced by the sense that failing to do so would be to betray those who have died. It repeats itself in every bloody conflict, and keeps them dragging on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 08:18 PM

True enough attempts to rally the Trades Unions and the left to oppose the war failed. And the same happened in Germany.

That's the madness of war fever.

Once a war is declared there's virtually always a surge of support. However Ill conceived and disastrous it turns out to be.

Nothing has changed there really.

The really crazy and criminal thing is that after the Schlieffen Plan failed there wasn't a rapid Armistice. But the fact that at that time the war was popular on both sides got in the way of anything like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 03:42 PM

Why does anybody bother with Mudcat?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 03:10 PM

Jim.
you are now expressing views that would disbar you from membership of the BNP as being too openly extreme.
That is a serious accusation Jim.
It is also a nasty lie.
Whenever you lose , out comes the lying personal attack.

YOU KNOW YOU CANNOT PRODUCE ANY SUCH THING.
YOU ARE A LOSER AND A LIAR.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 02:58 PM

"We appear to attract a commune of them on Mudcat."
In fairness Muskie - there are very few of them on this forum - though they do seem to appointed a leader - by default.
Argument is one thing, inarticulate and repetitive grunts quite another.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 02:37 PM

Musket, if you would share with us who "she" is, we could discuss it.

Are you saying "she" is an historian whose views contradict my three points?
That would be one, and "she" has taken 10 weeks to find!
Will it be another 10 weeks for the name?
Another 10 for a quote?

I have produced numerous quotes from many historians contradicting your version of history.

If you can not find one to contradict mine, the debate is over, and you lose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 01:59 PM

She was living as of the other day!

Dozy cunt.

Look. If you have a mental health issue that exhibits irrational homing in on things, being unable to think things through, then I apologise for laughing at you.

That's the problem with the internet. You can't weigh people up. I find that 20 mins into a conversation I know whether to be upfront or humour them.

Your last statement, coupled with your illogical stance on other threads precludes my being able to shout at you I suppose. If you want me to take you at face value then conceding gracefully would be a good start. Otherwise, Jim's observation might turn out to be on the button.

You see, and I am being sincere here, you are so illogical on so many issues that you are either a compulsive contradiction bod or the observations that your stances support right wing reactionary bullshit are somewhat accurate.

I hope the former. I fear the latter.

There is supposed to be one on every village. We appear to attract a commune of them on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 01:46 PM

"I agree with your first sentence Jim."
Keith - whether you agree or disagree with me is as little interest to me as what Nick Griffin thinks about what I believe - the parallels are obvious, except that you are now expressing views that would disbar you from membership of the BNP as being too openly extreme.
Your mindless repetition of opinions that have been debunked by half a century's education - and here, a library's worth of up-to date evidence is indication enough for me that you have nothing to contribute here.
You started on your own and you remain on your own, offering only sneers as response to real information   
Arguing with you has now become like trying to communicate with an extremely disturbed child with acute learning difficulties - you have admitted as much by confessing that you are unable to understand a simple document (though you have claimed to have made the subject a life-long study - where did you go for for your information - Biggles!!!)
I have set out how I believe those who fought and died in the trenches were thanked for their efforts - not by the left, by the British establishment.
You want to take part in that aspect - feel free - I shan't respond - I'm not qualified to deal with disturbed children and village idiots.
You want to discss the left's attitude to the war - feel free - the left had nothing to do with the way the soldiers were treated - except to take a leading part in the hunger marches made necessary by the inhuman behaviour of the British establishment
You really have shot your bolt here - I hope for the last time, though sadly, I doubt it - you seem totally insensitive to the image you have created for yourself.
Yours as ever
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 12:19 PM

Musket, yes people can read it all.
Presumably you have, but can find nothing.

Are there any living historians whose views contradict mine and support yours?
No.
Discussion over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 12:06 PM

I agree with your first sentence Jim.
Now that it has been fully established that there is a majority consensus on the causes and conduct of World War One

Yes, among historians at least, with NO dissenters yet identified in terms of my 3 points.

The rest of your post is just you imagining you are a historian and passing down to the world the fruits of your knowledge, wisdom and research.(chuckle)

Jim, you are not even familiar with the work of ONE living historian.
You know nothing about WW1.

Please respond to this.
"The British left responded to such fascism by largely supporting the war effort. Appeals by trade union leaders to oppose German aggression, particularly against Belgium, led more than 250,000 of their members to enlist by Christmas 1914, with 25% of miners volunteering before conscription. Typical was John Ward, one of my predecessors as MP for Stoke-on-Trent and the leader of the Navvies' Union. To "fight Prussianism", he raised three pioneer battalions from his members and, commissioned as a colonel by Lord Kitchener, led them to battle in France, Italy and Russia."

Inspired by socialism, not jingoism Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 11:55 AM

Not much point in being highly selective Keith, quoting two or three sentences from long pieces. People can read them in their entirety.

Busted flush.

Does the Secretary of State know the looney fringe support his stance?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 11:46 AM

Now that it has been fully established that there is a majority consensus on the causes and conduct of World War One (which will remain n place until someone establishes another) leaving the jingoist arguments dead n the water - for the present at least, perhaps it's worth putting the aftermath of the war into context - hopefully part of the coming commemoration year anniversary events, should the powers-that-be allow it to happen.
Those who went were promised "a land fit for heroes to live in" - they came back to poverty, unemployment and starvation - hunger marches became the only form of protest possible.
Excessive reparation demands, leading to an even worse situation in Germany, opened the door to Nazism.
Germany was allowed to re-arm and the rise of Hitler was virtually ignored by all but a few of the British establishment, many of whom chummed up with his regime, in some cases giving open support, including a British monarch and the proprietor of The Daily Mail (Max Hasting's present literary source of employment), Lord Rothermere.
Members of the British nobility and hierarchy, notably including Arthur Wellesley, 5th Duke of Wellington, formed support groups for Hitler's anti-Semitic programme, dismissing reports of the persecution of the Jews as "the invention of whingeing Yids".
Even while the WW2 was taking place, some of them where forming the makings of a Provisional Government in order to take over when "Germany was victorious".
(All this has been discussed on this forum before, our resident jingoist passing off these groups as being "harmless".)
The opportunity to stop the rise of fascism in Spain was not only ignored, but those Britons who volunteered to fight there were ostracised as "premature anti-fascists" and many were criminalised - many also lost their religion because the Catholic (Christian) Church backed Spanish fascism.
Hitler was allowed to 'blood' his Luftwaffe on the citizens of Madrid and Guernica.
Even on the eve of war Britain's leadership was still trying to appease German anti-Semitic fascism with little bits of paper calling for "peace in our time".
The fact is that the brave men who fought and died in WW1, won the war, the politicians and big business sold out that victory and lost the peace - "and we started all over again" as the song says.
It will be interesting to see if the BBC project covers this aspect of the war, or will they claim it to be "thread drift" as I'm sure somebody not a thousand miles from here undoubtedly will - not naming names, you understand!!!
Jim Carroll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 06:38 AM

Margaret Macmillan is quoted.
"I did not say, as Mr Gove suggests, that British soldiers in the first world war were consciously fighting for western liberal order. They were just defending their homeland and fighting what they saw as German militarism."


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 05:19 AM

I have the observer piece in front of me.
Neither it nor the Independent piece contradicts my case.
A quotes from the Observer.

" Few on the left would wish to defend Kaiser Wilhelm II against such charges of militarism. "First cow the socialists, behead them and make them harmless, with a bloodbath if necessary, and then make war abroad. But not before and not both together," was his advice to his chancellor, Bernhard von Bülow, in 1905.

The British left responded to such fascism by largely supporting the war effort. Appeals by trade union leaders to oppose German aggression, particularly against Belgium, led more than 250,000 of their members to enlist by Christmas 1914, with 25% of miners volunteering before conscription. Typical was John Ward, one of my predecessors as MP for Stoke-on-Trent and the leader of the Navvies' Union. To "fight Prussianism", he raised three pioneer battalions from his members and, commissioned as a colonel by Lord Kitchener, led them to battle in France, Italy and Russia."


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 05:11 AM

Have you seem the front page of The Observer yet Keith?

Not just me who has rumbled the propaganda drive to sanitise history then.

Add that to the article in The Independent about the historian (she was still alive as if yesterday if you wish to see provenance) who spoke of the dangers of stupidly sleepwalking into war again as we all did for all the wrong reasons in 1914.

Apologies to be directed to the usual place. Here where people can read them please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jan 14 - 04:19 AM

You called me that for quoting historians.
How can it not apply to those historians?
You did say that "historians should know better" like you do.

If it is not all living historians, point out some dissenters.
You have already had two months to find one.
How long do you need?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 04:44 PM

I think if you look carefully , I didn't say historians were stupid, stupid and should hang their head in shame. I addressed that to Keith A Hole of Hertford personally.

Views aren't facts, they are views. Most of the historians you pray to on your knees begin by setting a scene then give their take on it.

When you grow up you too may learn how to read history books in order to form your own view. In the meantime, stop ranting at the grown ups. Precocious children should be seen and not heard. Although in your case, seeing you wouldn't add to the world 's sum of knowledge either.

We appear to have gone from all to some historians. Any advance?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 01:25 PM

Remind us then Greg!


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 01:11 PM

all of you together could not find a single dissenter

Bullshit. As per usual.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 12:58 PM

I am probably the only person in the world who did read all that stuff Jim.
That is how I spotted the wrong name you gave for the person who was not even a historian.
You should read a book by someone still alive Jim.
You lose.

KB, I dismissed nothing.
I chose an extract that reflected the view of the whole piece, and provided a link for anyone to check the truth of it.

Why did you dismiss everything but that one secretary's comment?
Did you even know what CID was?
What about the still to be seen markers to guide refugees inland while leaving roads clear to rush troops to the front?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 12:17 PM

"He put up pages of unreadable tosh"
Only to morons Keith
Read a book
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 11:28 AM

Why did you extract the one comment by that secretary and ignore all the clear evidence that the military considered the threat of invasion as very real?

I didn't so much extract one comment as did a little reading when I went to the link you provided. Just above the quote you included in your post that comment caught my eye. I figured since I got it directly from information you provided that you would not be so quick to dismiss it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 10:35 AM

I never claimed to SHOW that they all did Greg, but all of you together could not find a single dissenter, so I came to believe that, yes.

Musket too.
"As of now I'm officially a historian. Now you don't have to keep saying "the historians" all the time. Because I'm a dissenting one. "

So the only dissenting historian is the Mudcat Muppet.

Likewise Jim.
He put up pages of unreadable tosh and hoped people would believe.

You lose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 09:56 AM

I have shown that a lot of historians say the same,

Gee, Keith, you used to claim that ALL historians thought as you do. Now its only "a lot"?

You're finally headed in the right direction & when uou get to "a few" you'll be right on the money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 06:43 AM

So, are there any NOW who dispute that,

Britain had no choice but to resist the German onslaught?
The British people overwhelmingly understood and accepted that?
The British army was not badly led?

That is my only case, I have shown that a lot of historians say the same, so where are the others?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 06:37 AM

You stupid, stupid little man.
You asked for historians that who don't accept your view of WW1 - you have been given them over and over again, now you have more, along with what they actually said.
I also gave a source to many, many more qualified historians who who are in the process of debate on the war, and as Grishka said earlier, there will be many more emerging later in the coming year.
He also wisely added that it is stupid to pull up historians randomly to back your case.
"Britain had no choice....."
The mindless repetition of your argument, in spite of the evidence you have now been deluged with shows what a flag-waving, agenda driven moron you actually are - something else that will never change.
Game, set and match - over and out
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 05:53 AM

John Clark?
I think you mean John D Clare, the schoolteacher and blogger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 05:24 AM

Thanks Jim.

I am not interested in politics or philosophy.
I am only interested in establishing the truth of these 3 points.

Britain had no choice but to resist the German onslaught.
The British people overwhelmingly understood and accepted that.
The British army was not badly led.

Are you aware of any living historian who contradicts my simple case?
If not, I am done with this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 04:47 AM

The complexity and range of the subject under discussion
I'm afraid it is rather large, which will, I know, cause difficulties for you, but....
Read as book - one of these discussed here maybe!!
Jim Carroll

Jay Winter, Antoine Prost. The Great War in History: Debates and Controversies, 1914 to the Present. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2005. viii + 250 pp. $28.99 (paper), ISBN 978-0-521-61633-1.
Reviewed by Kevin Mason (Department of History, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill)
Published on H-German (April, 2006)
Different Generations' Perspectives of World War I
Jay Winter and Antoine Prost analyze a multitude of books on World War I written by French, British and German scholars in order to show patterns of themes and methods over time. The authors set themselves a daunting task, as their comparative study considers not only the work of historians, but also encompasses literary works, television shows, films and museums. The book's cover page has a picture of a cemetery with books as tombstones, portraying the countless numbers of books already written on the Great War. Even though most of the writings on the First World War focus on military, political and diplomatic history, the authors add social, cultural and economic history. The work presents a multi-disciplinary, multi-national and multi-methodological approach. Prost and Winter argue that books and films on World War I can be grouped into three different generations (pp. 1-5). The book, originally published in French, examines how seven major themes (diplomatic and economic histories and the histories of generals, soldiers, workers, civilians and memory) have been treated within this three-generation framework. Although the authors leave out some works, do not fully state the arguments of each historian, and force the history of memory and that of workers into a slightly uncomfortable framework, they offer an outstanding historiographical study.
Prost and Winter argue that three different generations interpreted the war within "three historiographical configurations" (p. 31). The first, which they have called the "Generation of 1935," understood events in a nineteenth-century context. These scholars emphasized the nation and wrote history from the top down. The second generation, which witnessed World War II, described the Great War as a "tragedy played out by powerful collective actors: soldiers, workers, civilians" (pp. 200, 203). Finally, the third generation has turned toward cultural history and micro-historical analysis. According to Winter and Prost, regardless of which generation historians belong to, three questions reoccur again and again: "Why and how did the war break out? How was it conducted; how was it won and lost? What were its consequences?" (p. 199).
As first-generation witnesses who wrote immediately after World War I until the 1930s, generals, diplomats and historians wrote the history of the war as a political and diplomatic problem. The key issue was "war guilt"--that is, who started the war. Key sources were diplomatic documents published by the belligerent powers immediately after the war. Winter and Prost maintain that the first generation wrote history from above, focusing on generals, politicians and diplomats but ignoring common soldiers. For example, the highly acclaimed French historian Pierre Renouvin, who wrote a thorough account of the Great War during the interwar period and who was himself wounded in combat, stated, "the evidence of soldiers, the consultation of which is important for the understanding of the atmosphere of battle, can rarely give information on the conduct of operations, since their field of vision was too narrow" (p. 14). This approach was also typical of scholars in Great Britain and Germany.
According to Prost and Winter, the second generation (whose members wrote during the latter half of the twentieth century) contributed to a dramatic increase in the number of books and historical reviews published. In particular, three French war veterans in the 1960s--Andre Ducasse, Jacques Meyer and Gabriel Perreux--reintegrated history from above with the experience of common soldiers and history from below. The second generation emphasized social issues and class conflict, as post-World War II events in Vietnam and Algerian influenced writing about World War I. Marxist historians in particular focused on the laboring classes, miners, workers and peasants. Television became a new medium that reached millions of people. In 1964, the BBC produced the first series on World War I in which viewers saw graphic images; a joint production from France and Germany soon followed. In Britain, A. J. P. Taylor's The First World War: An Illustrated History (1964) likewise used images to portray the war as a reckless waste.
The second generation from the 1960s to the early 1980s shifted its focus from the question of war guilt to war origins and war aims. Arno Mayer contended that after World War I governments replaced the old diplomacy of secret treaties and imperialism with a program of "new diplomacy" that included open diplomacy, freedom of trade, popular self-determination, armaments reduction and an international body that could mediate disputes. Critical to the discussion of war aims was the German historian Fritz Fischer, who in the 1960s asserted that Germany wanted and planned for World War I so that it could dominate Europe. James Joll blamed alliances and imperialism. French Marxists blamed imperialism and capitalism.
Prost and Winter argue that the shift from the second to the third generation involved a smooth switch in emphasis from social to cultural history. Winter and Prost use the term "Generation of 1992" to describe the third generation because in that year, the Historial de la grande guerre opened in Peronne. A French museum inaugurated during a conference on war and culture, it contains objects from France, Germany and Britain (pp. 28, 200, 203). The focus of the third generation was also more micro-historical than global; identity and memory became highly important. The transition is exemplified by the 1996 BBC series The Great War and the Shaping of the Twentieth Century, which focused on cultural themes, such as the ideas, behavior, memories and aspirations of soldiers. Scholars of the third generation include Paul Fussell, who wrote The Great War and Modern Memory (1975) and John Keegan, author of The Face of Battle (1976). Instead of considering origins of the war, writers of the third generation focused on problems with the peace settlement that caused another war. They asked, therefore, if the treaty with Germany was too harsh, too lenient or just not enforced. The British economist John Maynard Keynes was an early critic of the treaty, and he had maintained that Germany could never pay the high reparations that the Allies imposed. However, historians of the third generation--such as Gerald Feldman and Niall Ferguson--questioned Keynes's conclusions by arguing that Germany could indeed have paid. In addition, David Stevenson argued that because the Allies could not agree on the treaty enforcement, they severely weakened it. Margaret Macmillan and later Gerd Krumeich have criticized the peacemakers for not giving self-determination to non-whites, which led to unrest in Asia.
The authors also assert that military history fits into the three generations scheme. The central question military historians ask of the war is "who commanded and how?" Prost and Winter distinguish between three periods of military history: a "heroic" phase, a critical history of command and fragmented national histories (p. 59). The "heroic" period (the interwar era), mainly told the story of great men, such as Paul Painleve's book on Philippe Petain (1923), and great battles, like Gabriel Hanotaux's treatment of the Somme (1920). National identity heavily biased many of the writings of the first period. During the second period (1960s-70s), the focus shifted to the history of command. Historians critically analyzed the role of the commanders (Petain, Helmuth von Moltke, Erich Ludendorff) and the political leaders (Theobald von Bethmann-Hollweg, Lloyd George, Woodrow Wilson, Raymond Poincaré). Television series on World War I likewise shifted to a more realistic portrayal of the war. The result was a depiction of anger, frustration and stalemate. The Vietnam and Algerian wars led to a highly fragmented third phase of military history during the 1980s and 1990s and "new" military historians emerged. Some contended that command witnessed a "learning curve," but others asserted that leaders stubbornly repeated the same mistakes (pp. 79-80).
Regarding the military history of the "soldiers," the authors also contend that this particular aspect of military history has changed greatly over time and can be categorized into three main periods. First-generation historians of the Great War, like Renouvin, left out the soldiers and took a top-down approach. Petain had written about the French mutiny without focusing on the mutineers. After the 1960s, works of the second period emphasized the role of the soldiers and relied on soldiers' memoirs and accounts. Gabriel Perreux examined civilian life and Guy Pedroncini studied the soldiers involved in the French mutiny. Keegan's Face of Battle (1976) discussed the battlefield in terms of bombardments, plans and soldiers' behavior. Jean-Jacques Becker analyzed the mobilization of troops. More recent historians, of the third generation--such as John Fuller, John Horne and Alan Kramer, Jean-Yves Le Naour, Anne Lipp and Annette Becker--have examined cultural topics, such as leisure activities in the trenches; the social class of the soldiers; violence during war; the language of the soldiers' letters; sexual practices of the troops; wartime morale; and war culture.
According to Winter and Prost, the economic history of the Great War falls likewise falls into three historiographical generations. In the first period, scholars analyzed the leadership's economic policies. Keynes asserted that Germany could not pay the reparations. Besides reparations, another issue that concerned first generation historians was the legality of the Allied blockade. In the 1920s and 1930s the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace commissioned a series of books that argued that the war had ended the free market and replaced it with state price controls. Carnegie Endowment historians concluded that the blockade was vital in defeating Germany. In the 1960s and 1970s, the second generation emphasized the partnership between big industry, economic interest groups and the military. C. Wright Mills focused on "power elites"-- civilians in positions of power. In the 1960s, historians blamed Germany's defeat on its economic failures, namely its inability to supply its troops and civilians. The Allies won because they had much more efficient methods of distribution. Winter and Prost argue that the first generation of economic history was "public history," while in the 1960s economic history became "structural history" (pp. 115-116). Fischer is characteristic of the new trend in the 1960s in showing how the industry, military and navy collaborated in seeking war aims and influencing Germany's economic and war policies.
Third-generation scholars pursued a research agenda that combines the interests of the first two generations and examined the wartime economy as a complex system for distributing goods to the frontline and home front. In the 1980s and 1990s, the third generation emphasized "economic war aims and their international consequences" (p. 119). Kathleen Burk has examined how American and British global finances were used to fund the Allied war effort. Other third-generation historians have focused on the scientists and scientific advancements that occurred during the war, such as poison gas, Novocain and other new drugs. The French historian Olivier Lepick examined the chemist Fritz Haber and the British author Donald Richter also studied the role of chemists. In regard to the question of who actually won the economic war, historians of the third generation, like Gerald Feldman, maintained that inflation and economic misery occurred throughout Europe and was not restricted to the losers (pp. 119-123).
Unsurprisingly, then, the authors argue that the history of civilian population falls into three distinct generations. First, in the 1920s and 1930s civilians were seen simply as "masses" or pawns "mobilized, protected, or coerced" (p. 152). During the second generation, historians first became interested in the home front, with an emphasis on social unrest and revolution at the end of the war. Jürgen Kocka's Klassengesellschaft im Krieg (1973), on the social origins of German revolution, is one example. During the third phase, focus fell on the cultural history of the civilian population. Third-generation scholars turned to issues such as memory, "war cultures" and gender studies. One of the more fascinating works from the last group is Vejas Liulevicius's War Land on the Eastern Front (2000), which examines the German occupation of Poland and the Baltic during World War I. Liulevicius argues that already during this time a culture war was underway in which "superior" western views were forced onto "inferior eastern" peoples.
The history of memory and the history of workers during World War I have not gone through three fully developed phases and are exceptions to the authors' main thesis. Regarding workers and revolution, the authors state that the shift from the first to the second generation came later and that the third generation "exists only in a sketchy form" (p. 126). During the first generation from 1919-1965, the emphasis was on a political history of labor. In the 1920s, British historian Arthur Bowley wrote on prices, wages and mining. The first generation also examined the history of the Social Democrats in France, Germany, Great Britain and Russia. Marxist views heavily influenced authors writing in the 1960s, who often saw the Social Democrats as traitors to the revolution. Communism was a main focus of the first generation. The second generation (1965-2000) shifted from the politics of the labor movement to social history. Authors focused on new themes, including strike activity, trade unions and women in the workforce. There has been a modest drive toward more cultural history of labor, focusing on such things as mentalities of the workers, workers' pacifism and reformist aspirations.
Furthermore, the history of memory only fits into two historiographic periods rather than three. During the first period from 1918 to 1970, memory was dominated by the veterans of the war. The memory of combatants was a mostly male sphere. Great leaders, like Winston Churchill and Ludendorff, published most of the memoirs. During the second period (1970-2000), most of the survivors of World War I had died and memory work shifted to commemoration. Recent themes of the second period have included the mentality of the troops, shell shock and psychological disorders.
Winter and Prost offer a breathtaking and extensive study of World War I that includes books and films. Even though (as they themselves admit) the authors cannot possibly cover every single book ever written on the Great War, they cover the most important ones. There are some omissions. The authors acknowledge Samuel R. Williamson's argument that no one had predicted the collapse of Austria-Hungary before World War I and that Austrian domestic and foreign policies were closely related, but they do not restate his claim that Austria-Hungary was most responsible for beginning the war because of its preventive war against Serbia.[1] Nor do they discuss Paul Kennedy's argument that economic factors motivated the Anglo-German antagonism.[2] Overall, however, the book is a very well written, well researched, and interesting study--a must read for advanced history students who are interested in a comparative analysis of World War I or preparing for comprehensive exams. This book should serve as a model for a similar study of World War I books and films in Central and Eastern Europe, Asia and Africa.
Notes
[1]. Samuel R. Williamson, Jr., Austria-Hungary and the Origins of the First World War (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1991).
[2]. Paul Kennedy, The Rise of the Anglo-German Antagonism, 1860-1914 (London: Allen & Unwin, 1980; 2nd ed., 1996).


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 04:44 AM

Some of the statements by modern historians regarding the causes of World War One
I don't go into quick-fixes - there is an ongoing debate on the subject, which is vast and complex and will not be resolved by quick dips into the net to prove one point or the other
On thing is certain - nobody, but nobody is claiming the jingoistic causes and effect you are
Read a book
Jim Carroll

Margaret McMillan
'The War that Ended Peace tells the story of how intelligent, well-meaning leaders guided their nations into catastrophe. These epic events, brilliantly described by one our era's most talented historians, warn of the dangers that arise when we fail to anticipate the consequences of our actions. Immersed in intrigue, enlivened by fascinating stories, and made compelling by the author's own insights, this is one of the finest books I have read on the causes of World War I.', Madeleine Albright, former Secretary of State
'Once again, Margaret MacMillan proves herself not just a masterly historian but a brilliant storyteller. She brings to life the personalities whose decisions, rivalries, ambitions, and fantasies led Europe to "lay waste to itself" and triggered decades of global conflict. Hers is a cautionary tale of follies a century in the past that seem all too familiar today.', Strobe Talbott, President, Brookings Institution
'The War That Ended Peace is a masterful explanation of the complex forces that brought the Edwardian world crashing down. Utterly riveting, deeply moving, and impeccably researched, MacMillan's latest opus will become the definitive account of old Europe's final years', Amanda Foreman

Professor Christopher Clark
The consensus since the 1960s has been to see Germany as the culprit. While Clark accepts the dominance of a diluted version of the thesis in which the German Empire deliberately chose war as a means of escaping isolation and making a bid for world power, he comments that "the Germans were not the only imperialists and not the only ones to succumb to paranoia". His Balkan emphasis and sympathy for Austria-Hungary's predicament do move the debate towards Russia's policies and actions, which Sean McMeekin's The Russian Origins of the First World War (2011) has highlighted, but for Clark there are no guilty parties. The search for blame, he argues, leads to an assumption that there were culpable decision-makers who had coherent intentions while, in fact, the problem was the lack of men with the power or capability to make decisions

Niall Fergusson
The next work of Ferguson's to attract widespread notice was The Pity of War which was an attempt to re-evaluate Britain's role in the First World War. Ferguson argues mainly that the destruction of that war, which claimed the lives of some nine million men, could well have been avoided. By his reckoning, the war between Germany and Austria on one side and Russia and France on the other was one thing: it was only through the decision of the British that a local war became a world war.
Much of Ferguson's analysis has to do with the decision that brought England into the war. He argues, for example, that Britain went to war because it misread German intentions: they saw Kaiser Wilhelm as another Napoleon, not understanding that Germany's main interests had always been focused on Eastern, rather than Western, Europe. He further argues that the proponents of sending an English army to France -- which was the trigger that made a wider war inevitable -- were a minority, and that it was only because of the lack of conviction of the rest of the cabinet ministers and party leaders that the fateful decision was made. Somewhat surprisingly, Ferguson argues that war with Germany was not even in England's economic interests, since a German overseas presence would only have worked to France's detriment, not Britain's.
Ferguson asserts that Britains decision to enter into this war was historically speaking the greatest error of the twentieth century. Britain was wrong to cross the channel and fight the Germans in 1914. It cost far too much, in blood and money, for the advantage gained. By the end of the 20th century, after all, the Germans had achieved exactly what they wanted in 1914, economic leadership of Europe.

Ruth Hennig
What really marked out the decade before 1914 was a failure of statesmanship and hope.   By 1912, most European governments had come to believe that a general European war was inevitable and that the problems which plagued them at home and abroad could no longer be settled by negotiation and diplomacy…   In these circumstances, war seemed to offer an attractive way out ...   The balance sheet in 1918 proved how wrong they had been.
R. Henig, The Origins of the First World War (1989)

Paul Schroeder
In a 1972 essay "World War I as a Galloping Gertie", Schroeder blamed Britain for the First World War. Schroeder argued that the war was a "Galloping Gertie", in events escalated out of control, sucking in all of the Great Powers into an unwanted war[3] Schroeder that the key factor in the European situation was what he claimed was Britain's "encirclement" policy directed at Austria-Hungary.[4] Schroeder argued that British foreign policy was fundamentally anti-German, and even more so, anti-Austrian[5] Schroeder claimed that 1914 was a "preventive war" forced on Germany to maintain Austria as a power, which faced with a crippling British "encirclement policy" aimed at the break-up of that state[6] His current research focuses on European international politics, 1648-1945, emphasizing systemic evolution and development.

John Clark
Although most modern historians allocate some or most of the blame to Germany, further studies have revealed that there was just as much 'will to war' in other countries. In 1991, the British historian Samuel Williamson, in his book, Austria-Hungary and the Origins of the First World War, argued that Austria-Hungary was equally to blame for the war, marrying a German expansionism with an Austrian desire to expand into the Balkans.   Other historians cited militaristic/bellicose attitudes in France and Britain.   This led some historians after the 1970s to return to Winston Churchill's suggestion that war came in 1914 because of a general restlessness throughout Europe, in which everybody was turning to violence as a way of sorting out their dissatisfactions (for instance, the suffragettes, the trade unions, and both Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland, started to use force in the years before 1914).


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 14 - 01:10 AM

KB, the massacres obviously were not involved in the decision to go to war and I never suggested such a ludicrous thing.
They did create anger and fear among the population.
I really have been over this many times. Please consider skimming through if you are serious.
Why did you extract the one comment by that secretary and ignore all the clear evidence that the military considered the threat of invasion as very real?
I was not even sure than what CID was.
Presumably you were?

Musket, congratulations on becoming a historian again.
Please name any of your colleagues who are not revisionists.
If there are none, you must be a very lonely little historian.
Poor little historian.
You should not have said they were "stupid, stupid," "should hang their heads in shame," and that "historians should know better." !

Seriously, are there any living historians whose views contradict mine and support yours?
No.
Discussion over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 08:56 PM

All history is to some extent a succession of revisionisms. What is revisionism today is likely to be orthodoxy tomorrow, and what was once the orthodoxy overthrown by rebisionists can often turn up, topped and tailed, as a new revisionism, destined to temporarily become orthodox... And so on.

Among other things, historical study is a career structure. To get on a historian needs to find some new aspect of the past, some untapped resource of information, some new way of analysing the available information. That means there is an inbuilt tendency to revise how the events of history are understood.

If it was in fact true that there was a generation of scholars who viewed the Great War in the way Keith does, you can be very sure that there is another generation in the wings ready to demolish that view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 03 Jan 14 - 07:35 PM

Nice to see revisionism is abhorred by lots of people.

I for one do not automatically abhor revisionism. If it were not for revisionism we would still be reading about what a grand fellow Custer was and how awful those savages were.


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