Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17]


BS: Christmas Truce (1914)

DigiTrad:
CHRISTMAS 1914
CHRISTMAS IN THE TRENCHES


Related threads:
(origins) Origins: Christmas in the Trenches (McCutcheon) (71)
Lyr Add: Christmas 1914 (Cormac MacConnell) (34)
Christmas Truce (5)
Lyr Req: Christmas in the Trenches (J McCutcheon) (13)
The Christmas Truce (14)
WW 1 christmas song (16) (closed)
Lyr Req: A Silent Night (Christmas 1915) (20)
Lyr Req: Christmas in the trenches (9)
(origins) Origins: Song about Xmas & WWI (3) (closed)
Xmas in the Trenches Survivor Dies (41)
Musical Question - Christmas, 1914 (14)
Lyr Req: Christmas day 1960something? / 1914 (3) (closed)
Chords Req: Christmas in the Trenches (20)
Lyr Req: Belleau Wood (Garth Brooks) (23)
Lyr Req: Christmas in the Trenches (4) (closed)


Keith A of Hertford 02 Feb 14 - 03:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Feb 14 - 05:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Feb 14 - 01:34 AM
Greg F. 31 Jan 14 - 06:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 14 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,Musket 31 Jan 14 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,Grishka 31 Jan 14 - 12:01 PM
Teribus 31 Jan 14 - 09:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 14 - 09:19 AM
GUEST,Grishka 31 Jan 14 - 09:03 AM
Teribus 31 Jan 14 - 07:26 AM
GUEST,Musket 31 Jan 14 - 07:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Jan 14 - 05:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 14 - 04:54 AM
GUEST,Grishka 31 Jan 14 - 04:23 AM
Monique 31 Jan 14 - 03:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Jan 14 - 03:17 AM
Teribus 31 Jan 14 - 02:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 14 - 01:00 AM
GUEST,Grishka 30 Jan 14 - 06:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 14 - 03:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 14 - 03:13 PM
Monique 30 Jan 14 - 02:42 PM
GUEST,Grishka 30 Jan 14 - 02:32 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Jan 14 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,Grishka 30 Jan 14 - 12:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 14 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,Grishka 30 Jan 14 - 11:15 AM
Teribus 30 Jan 14 - 02:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 14 - 02:51 AM
GUEST,Grishka 29 Jan 14 - 05:43 PM
GUEST,keith A 29 Jan 14 - 03:45 PM
GUEST,Grishka 29 Jan 14 - 11:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 14 - 10:32 AM
GUEST,Grishka 29 Jan 14 - 10:01 AM
Teribus 29 Jan 14 - 10:01 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jan 14 - 09:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 14 - 08:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 14 - 08:00 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jan 14 - 06:41 AM
Teribus 29 Jan 14 - 06:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 14 - 05:42 AM
Teribus 29 Jan 14 - 05:39 AM
GUEST,Grishka 29 Jan 14 - 05:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 14 - 03:47 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jan 14 - 03:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 14 - 02:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 14 - 02:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 14 - 12:55 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jan 14 - 03:05 PM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum Child
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 03:58 AM

I only felt ashamed of the actions of individuals; the woman who invented an atrocity story about her sister, the man who enriched himself by staging theatrical enlistment events, and the people who attacked German businesses.

Because of this thread, I was gratified that the programme was clear that far from wanting war, the government was distraught at the prospect but compelled to act.
Also that the people overwhelmingly understood and accepted that.

I have been viciously and obscenely ridiculed here just for holding those same opinions.
They may be just opinions, but they are held by people with far greater knowledge than any of us here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 05:39 PM

Watched the Paxman prog last night. Pretty much confirms what I thought. Up to now some stuff to be proud of and some to hang our heads in shame for. Some good, some bad. Certainly proved the point that the interpretation of historical facts is pretty much a matter of opinion. I will continue to watch with interest. The trailers for the next one indicated that some people were forced (as in against their will) to fight. It may create lively debate here but I suspect some will try to capitalise on the suffering of those who were involved to 'win' points. Sad really.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 01:34 AM

I have only put up three stated views on this.
There is one extreme right wing fanatical eccentric historian who has been found who disagrees with one of them.

Of all the "thousands who have written on the subject" how many others disagree with any of those three views Greg?
None so far.
Or have you found some (ha ha ha)
Will you name some (ha ha ha)
Just one? (ha ha ha)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 06:16 PM

my three stated views

HOLY SHIT!! Three whole "stated views" out of many thousands of historians who have written upon the subject.

Hey, its Gotta be true! if .01% say it is.

Apologies; I said I was done with this know-all self aggrandizing asshole, but sometimes the bullshit shit gets so deep one has to say something.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 02:30 PM

It took you 12 weeks to find one eccentric who disagrees with one of my three stated views.

Guardian yesterday.
"Ferguson, no stranger to controversy, is unlikely to worry about coming under fire for his views. Last year he managed to stir up a massive row over a long-dead economist when he suggested that John Maynard Keynes had no stake in the future because he was gay and childless – although he did later apologise, calling his remarks "stupid and tactless"."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 12:42 PM

I don't agree with Ferguson, hence interested to hear his view.

The object of the exercise being Keith's absurd "all historians on The BBC" nonsense.

Ferguson at least hasn't read the revision script presently rewriting history to allow us to celebrate rather than lower our heads to mark 100 years.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 12:01 PM

Teribus, this sounds like a moot discussion to me altogether, both what you quote of Ferguson and your replies.

As we saw many times, e.g. from the article linked by Monique, British and French leaders were afloat in the same boat long before 1914; all plans were designed on that premise. Enthusiasm varied, of course, but the time of real options was from 1900 to 1911, approximately. I think that each single one of the governments involved could have prevented the war then, and should have done so for the benefit of the vast majority of their own citizens, and of the world. Without a WWI no WWII.

If any of them was "less guilty" than the others, we would still be wrong to praise them now.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 09:44 AM

Aw Musket:

The piece in the Independent on Niall Ferguson's views on Britain and the First World War - as reported by Ian Johnston.

Now normally I rate Ferguson but on this occasion I would disagree with him and apart from that the piece of course is written with the benefit of 20 X 20 hindsight and ignores some massive elephants present in the room.

1: "Britain should not have gone to war in 1914 and the decision to do so was the "biggest error in modern history", according to the historian Niall Ferguson.

Doesn't state why, making no attempt to address the issues.

2: The Harvard University professor said that Britain was ill-prepared for the First World War and paid too high a price in terms of the lives lost and the vast debts that were run up during the four-year conflict.

Wasn't prepared to fight the war "as it turned out and developed", yet the British proved to be the best innovators among the combatant powers succeeding as they did in introducing new technology to address the problems faced by their troops.

3: "He also said the UK could have "lived with" an initial Germany victory over Russia and France and dealt with Germany's vast new European empire later.

Ah and of course Niall there would have been no costs in terms of dealing with this new European Empire, no lives lost and no debts incurred. And Britain having ran out on its allies and its treaty obligations in 1914 would have been beset by others all keen and eager to join Britain in dealing with this new European Empire of Germany's – An idiotic assumption on the part of the Professor I would say.

4: "The cost, let me emphasise, of the First World War to Britain was catastrophic, and it left the British Empire at the end of it all in a much weakened state.

Dealing with the new German Empire later would have cost us much more. The costs of the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars in comparable terms were greater than those of the First World War. In addressing the problems later those costs would have been even greater as Britian would have had to have paid for everything – remember this Britain has never fought a major war entirely on its own, it has always fought alongside allies. There would have been no allies if Britain had taken Niall Ferguson's advice.

5: "It had accumulated a vast debt, the cost of which really limited Britain's military capability throughout the inter-war period.

I'm sorry Niall what did Britain need it's massed military capability for throughout the inter-war period? In what way did it limit what Britain wanted to do?

6: Loss of manpower was experienced right across the board in Europe and many suffered more than the British.

7: "Instead of going to the aid of neutral Belgium after Germany invaded, it would have been in "Britain's interests to stay out in 1914,"

Obviously, and fortunately not a view shared by those governing Britain at the time, but there again they were dealing with the actual problem that presented itself at that time and they were more aware of the issues involved.

8: "Britain could indeed have lived with a German victory,"

No it couldn't, as if that indeed was the case then Britain would not have to confront Germany later – so in this Ferguson contradicts himself.

9: "A victorious Germany would have had a "pretty massive challenge on its hands trying to run the new German-dominated Europe and would have remained significantly weaker than the British Empire in naval and financial terms".

Really?? You mean much in the same way that Napoleon was hampered by French domination in Europe in 1808?

10: "Given the resources that Britain had available in 1914, a better strategy would have been to wait and deal with the German challenge later when Britain could respond on its own terms, taking advantage of its much greater naval and financial capability," Professor Ferguson said.

Ah you mean wait until we are totally bereft of any potential allies then instead of sending our troops over on cross channel ferries onto a friendly shore we have to make an opposed landing as had to be done in 1944 (It took us four years working flat out to do that during the Second World War Niall or had you forgotten that). Or perhaps Niall Ferguson meant that Britain should have waited until the entire coast of Europe was under German control along with free and unfettered access to the entire agricultural output of Europe THEN attempted to enforce a naval blockade to bring Germany to it's knees – Utterly ridiculous.

11: "Creating an army more or less from scratch and then sending it into combat against the Germans was a recipe for disastrous losses. And if one asks whether this was the best way for Britain to deal with the challenge posed by imperial Germany, my answer is no.

Well then Professor Ferguson I do not think that you have thought the thing through properly:

a) We would still have had to create a large enough Army from scratch, and then we would have had to have taught that Army all about amphibious warfare before we could ever have thought about being able to use it (No costs associated with that lot then Professor)

b) Now what about the bit that the good Professor has by-passed completely and ignored? What about the colonies of the countries that Germany has swallowed up and defeated, which of course would have become German - their "Place in the Sun"? Had Britain waited as Niall suggests would Germany have been in a position to foment trouble in neighbouring British possessions as they sat, watched and noted our preparations to "address" the problem of Germany's new European Empire? I would reckon that they would have been rather well placed to do precisely that – wouldn't you? - and Britain would have had to have dissipated it's military might taking care of any such trouble - Oh but wait a minute we needed those troops to address our European German problem didn't we Professor?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 09:19 AM

Ferguson.
Gove likes him.
Tried to involve him in the History curriculum.
He is also a staunch Thatcherite.
He is on his own, but yes, you have found one.
Well done!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 09:03 AM

Dave, I wrote (several times) that I do not think that the relevant facts are under dispute at all, so I just want to remind the others of them when needed for my arguments about evaluations from the present-day view. Details about military strategy are not my cup of tea at all, and they are not relevant for the point I want to make.

Teribus: Sir Edward would, wouldn't he, stick to the propaganda story, and the theatrical style of the time.
The Germans were fully aware of the risk involved in invading Belgian territory but they thought that they could advance swiftly enough and deliver a decisive blow against France before Britain could intervene in any significant way.
That is more like the truth; you write it yourself. Hawkish or not, British involvement was clearly seen as imminent.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 07:26 AM

"In fact, Britain entering was anticipated and welcomed by many German voices."

I dare say the more "hawkish" elements welcomed the prospect of Britain entering the war – Four years later they certainly rued the day they voiced such enthusiasm. Being a nation with no experience or reason to fully appreciate or understand the significance of a naval blockade, in the course of the First World War the civilian populations of both Imperial Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire certainly suffered greatly. In Germany it was civil unrest that brought the Kaiser's reign to an end, while the population of Austria was near starvation.

"The famous "scrap" quotation is normally read in the sense of "Of course, that old treaty cannot be the real reason for Britain to enter the war!" - an opinion shared by most."

Well of course Grishka if you had actually printed out the quote in context you would see that the exact opposite was the case.

The official report prepared by the British ambassador to Germany, Sir Edward Goschen, which recounted the events of 4 August 1914:

"I then said that I should like to go and see the Chancellor, as it might be, perhaps, the last time I should have an opportunity of seeing him. He begged me to do so. I found the Chancellor very agitated.

His Excellency at once began a harangue, which lasted for about twenty minutes. He said that the step taken by His Majesty's Government was terrible to a degree; just for a word - "neutrality," a word which in war time had so often been disregarded - just for a scrap of paper Great Britain was going to make war on a kindred nation who desired nothing better than to be friends with her.

All his efforts in that direction had been rendered useless by this last terrible step, and the policy to which, as I knew, he had devoted himself since his accession to office had tumbled down like a house of cards. What we had done was unthinkable; it was like striking a man from behind while he was fighting for his life against two assailants.

He held Great Britain responsible for all the terrible events that might happen. I protested strongly against that statement, and said that, in the same way as he and Herr von Jagow wished me to understand that for strategical reasons it was a matter of life and death to Germany to advance through Belgium and violate the latter's neutrality, so I would wish him to understand that it was, so to speak, a matter of "life and death" for the honour of Great Britain that she should keep her solemn engagement to do her utmost to defend Belgium's neutrality if attacked.

That solemn compact simply had to be kept, or what confidence could any one have in engagements given by Great Britain in the future? The Chancellor said, "But at what price will that compact have been kept. Has the British Government thought of that?"

I hinted to his Excellency as plainly as I could that fear of consequences could hardly be regarded as an excuse for breaking solemn engagements, but his Excellency was so excited, so evidently overcome by the news of our action, and so little disposed to hear reason that I refrained from adding fuel to the flame by further argument."


The Germans were fully aware of the risk involved in invading Belgian territory but they thought that they could advance swiftly enough and deliver a decisive blow against France before Britain could intervene in any significant way. With the French knocked out and defeated the Triple Entente would collapse and a peace could be negotiated by Germany from a position of strength, a grave miscalculation of the part of the Germans.

The "Entente Cordiale " signed in 1904 between Great Britain and France was primarily designed to check German colonial ambitions. This agreement was expanded in 1907 to include Russia and formed the basis of what was known as the "Triple Entente" which became a full blown military alliance in 1911.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 07:01 AM

Keith wants it from BBC history and written by one of his pet historians.

Fair enough.

Niall Ferguson.

Go on Keith, quote his latest. The Independent also published it the other day. As you seem to have problems finding info that makes you look a fool.

For everyone else he notes the recent attempts to gloss over the awful reality and reiterates the lies, jingoism and poor leadership, as well as questioning why we were dragged in in the first place.

It's called balance Keith. Something alien when your general approach is dogmatic and lopsided.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 05:03 AM

I am still unclear what you are saying, Grishka. Is it that you only write facts or that you also repeat hearsay? A fact is a fact. Hearsay is simply what someone passed on to you and may be opinion rather than fact. Glad to see you do not claim to be an expert but if you are only venturing a non-expert opinion you need to expect someone to question that opinion.

D.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 04:54 AM

More detail of the 1904 incident.
"In 1903-1904 French intelligence obtained for 60,000 francs a set of
documents outlining the developing Schlieffen Plan: a massive strike through
Belgium. The circumstances of their delivery invited suspicion. "Le Vengeur"
was presumably an officer of the German General Staff. But he kept his head
swathed in bandages to prevent identification. Only his "Prussian" mustache
was exposed, presumably as proof of his national origins! He had previously furnished useful information. But had that merely been a preliminary to a
massive disinformation plan? The "Vengeur" documents ultimately proved less
useful for themselves than as a spur to study German railway construction along
its Belgian frontier, and the writing of such contemporary military theorists as
Friedrich von Bernhardi. Both of these led French military intelligence to
predict a German invasion through Belgium and Luxemburg even before
Schlieffen himself had made his final decision.22

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a433346.pdf


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 04:23 AM

Dave, I wrote: All I write about facts of history is FWIW (= "for what it's worth" = according to the information I have). I do not have the impression that this information ("The entente leaders were well acquainted to the idea of a German invasion of Belgium since 1906, if not earlier") is seriously under dispute, but if it is, I did not and do not pose as an expert.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Monique
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 03:37 AM

From the "non official source":
>>The Revue historique des armées, the magazine of the Ministry of Defence, is a quarterly specialist technical periodical and the SHD's communication vehicle. It was founded in 1945 and received the Académie française award in 1954 and the Académie des sciences morales et politiques award in 1981. Four issues are published per year, each comprising 144 pages.

The Revue historique des armées is richly illustrated, largely thanks to items from the SHD's picture collections and publishes a wide variety of articles, special reports on different topics, short articles on French military badges, information relating to the department's records collections, various book review features and reports on academic research and conferences and other events relating to military history.<<
Link

The italics are mine. "SHD" stands for "Service Historique de la Défense" (Historical Department of Defence)
I'm out of here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 03:17 AM

All I write about facts of history

I heard it from French teachers

That just about takes the biscuit. How can all you write about be fact when just a few posts earlier you happily admitted that you were relying on hearsay?

Is it just me or do others find that this thread has become really weird?

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 02:05 AM

The plan to attack through Belgium was obvious??

Was it?

Now IF the details of the Schlieffen Plan had been known to the French in 1904, 1905 or even 1906, then the French must have been rather mystified by what the Germans eventually ended up doing in the late summer of 1914 wouldn't they?

Now IF the details of the Schlieffen Plan had been known to the French in 1904, 1905 or even 1906, then the disposition of the French Armies would have been drastically different to those confronted by the Germans in the late summer of 1914 wouldn't they?

WHY??

Because Moltke changed and modified the Schlieffen Plan, and those modifications severely constrained the attack and reduced its chances of success. The Schlieffen Plan as envisaged by Schlieffen in it's original form looked more like the German attack in the West of 1940.

Schlieffen's dying words apparently were, "Remember keep the right strong." i.e. mass your strength on the right flank of the attack. Schlieffen looked at attacking France through both Holland and Belgium.

Schlieffen's original Plan required ALL of Germany's Army to execute the attack. The "eastern front" according to his thinking could be held initially by the Austro-Hungarians because of the time it would take Russia to mobilise it's forces. Moltke was not of the same opinion and took troops originally assigned to the German right flank and stationed them in the East - The Russian mobilisation eventually turned out to be far quicker than anticipated.

Schlieffen wanted to go through both Holland and Belgium because only going through Belgium would cause a bottleneck for the attacking force and severely limit the flow of supplies and reinforcements to the front (Take a look at the limited front afforded by the German Belgian Border). Railway links were far better between Germany and Holland and far better "North-South" between France and Holland in Belgium the closer you got to the coast (Paris-Brussels-Antwerp-Rotterdam). By sweeping down the coast it would effectively cut off the shortest line of communication between France and Great Britain forcing the British to concentrate a disproportionate number of ships from the Home Fleet in the southern part of the North Sea in a defensive posture thus weakening any blockade of Germany.

In the event the German right was not strong enough, the Belgians resisted and suffered the terror the Germans unleashed against the civilian population in their path, but they delayed the advance and further constricted the flow of supplies (Vital to an attacking army on the move). In meeting the six divisions of the BEF the German Army met the only force in the world at the time that were fully capable of fighting a withdrawal against overwhelming odds ("Fire-and Manouevre" tactics work equally well in both attack and retreat) in such a manner as to remain intact as an effective fighting force whilst inflicting serious casualties on that attacking force - again the German ability to bring up reinforcements delayed their progress and if anything the Schlieffen Plan required speed to be successful.

Delayed at both Mons and Le Cateau they were finally stopped at the Marne.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 01:00 AM

Not an official source.
No source is given for the claim.
If the plan was known, why were the allies taken by surprise by the direction of the German thrusts, and why did the French fall into the trap in the centre?
The plan very clearly was not known.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 06:19 PM

Thanks, Monique, for the helpful link to official French resources, which can hardly be suspected to spread lies to denigrate the allied war plans (... even if the current president is a "socialist").

To those who cannot read French, I recommend entering the paragraph starting with "Du 6 au 8 septembre 1906" to Google-Translate. The full scenario already planned in 1906, secretly, but with enthusiasm both from British and French generals.

The general public was not quite as well-informed, but could guess a lot - so did the German leaders. All leaders did what they had planned for years in advance - whether or not they welcomed it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 03:26 PM

If the plan was known, why was none of it anticipated?

"the supposed 'leak' occurred in 1904, at least a year before Schlieffen finished the famous version of his plan. Samuel R Williamson writes in The Politics Of Grand Strategy that :

The story behind French acquisition of these German documents in the winter of 1903-1904 remains confused and uncertain. In 1932 Maurice Paléologue, who had been one of Delcassé's assistants in 1904, asserted that a disillusioned German staff officer had betrayed the outlines of the Schlieffen Plan to French agents. Subsequent studies have cast grave doubts about Paléologue's accuracy both on the alleged betrayal and in his summary of the new information. Certainly there was no question, as the French diplomat implied, of the Schlieffen Plan having been revealed, since the Plan did not go into effect until late 1905."
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=187445&start=375


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 03:13 PM

In Europe as in Britain there was much speculation about how a war might start and how it would develop.
It was just speculation and nothing to do with the totally secret plan.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Monique
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 02:42 PM

The French general staff knew about the Schlieffen plan since April 20th 1904: a German officer sold them the plan. The Belgian government knew about it too Link, note 34 (the whole text is in French)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 02:32 PM

Dave, we are not in court, and I am not posing as a historian. All I write about facts of history is FWIW, and I often would not know how to find the primary sources even if I had to - which I have not. The main dispute is not about facts at all, as you noticed before.

Does anybody here seriously believe that the German invasion of Belgium came as a total surprise (- the fact, not the exact time and tactics)? If it was expected by the French (government, military, and public), but not by the British, would that not be terribly stupid of the latter, far below "donkeys"?

The media will refresh our schooldays memories in the course of this year. I expect that the "kaiser's fleet theory" will once more be discussed, which occurs in the context of "balance of power policy" in the sense I described above.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 12:10 PM

I heard it from French teachers

That would REALLY stand up in court wouldn't it!

:D tG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 12:02 PM

I have never heard of any such thing.
Can you show us something please?
I heard it from French teachers who claimed to have read those newspapers with their own eyes, and from many other sources. Actually the idea of Germans invading France via Belgium and Luxembourg was obvious enough, so that the rest of the world would have been incredibly stupid not to have it. The tactical details are not important for my argument. (Rumours on the net actually claim that these were known to the French military as well.)

If anybody seriously challenges this statement, I can google for support, though I do not know which authority will convince whom.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 11:23 AM

Correction: its approximate content was published and discussed by German and French newspapers

I have never heard of any such thing.
Can you show us something please?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 11:15 AM

Grishke, the Schliefen Plan was never "published for the world to read" !!
Correction: its approximate content was published and discussed by German and French newspapers. In fact, Britain entering was anticipated and welcomed by many German voices. The famous "scrap" quotation is normally read in the sense of "Of course, that old treaty cannot be the real reason for Britain to enter the war!" - an opinion shared by most. Some say it was about "the kaiser's fleet" - I am not quite convinced; anyway, it must have been planned in "entente cordiale", also with Russian and Belgian diplomacy.

There were surprises on both sides in 1914, but nobody seriously expected Germany to spare Belgium because of its neutrality.

I never wrote that "Britain" wanted war; I wrote that all the governments involved gambled with the option of war, being sufficiently confident to win it, but preferring the other side to cave in. Many of the preparations may have been half-hearted and ill organized (and particularly not aimed at minimizing losses of life - the main point of criticism inside Britain), but preparations they were.

The reason why I offer links to Wikipedia is for elementary facts only. I read the French, English, and German Wikis, all offering different interpretations, and different ancient half-truths.

"Balance of power" (/neutrality) actually meant: let all the others be less powerful than ourselves, and busy with each other. A stable peace is quite a different thing. The efforts for the latter goal were definitely not serious enough to be praised from the present-day point of view. That is the crucial point. I am not arguing about the past, but about Iran etc. of nowadays.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 02:59 AM

Ah but Grishka there are those here trying to put forward the argument that the British Government of the day in 1914 put forward and pushed "propaganda" that in fact they had absolutely no hand in, i.e making promises to troops that "It will all be over by Christmas" or that they would "All be Home by Christmas" and the handing out of "White Feathers".

In this discussion Keith A has from the outset argued and maintained three points:

1: That Britain had no choice but to resist the German onslaught;

2: That the British people overwhelmingly understood and accepted that;

3: That the British army was not badly led.

As far as 1 above goes diplomatic efforts were made in an attempt to create a balance of power through treaties that would dissuade would be belligerent powers from fighting - that failed as Germany falsely believed that they could achieve the swift victory it needed. Exactly the same thing was tried in the run up to the Second World War, only on that occasion the Germans pre-empted the British and the French by signing the Ribbentrop-Molotov Non-Aggression Pact on the 23rd August 1939.

As far as 2 above is concerned Britain was bound to honour her treaty obligations and the British people did overwhelmingly accept and understand that and I have seen and read much that supports that contention and have not seen anything that contradicts it.

As far as 3 above goes the evidence, the statistics and the end result massively refutes any charge that they were badly led, by 1918 they were the only army still vigorously attacking the enemy and that army was the one that had started the war with only 80,000 men, ending it after some brutally harsh campaigns and bloody engagements with over 4,000,000 men. Had they been badly led that would simply have not been possible.

"Keith, you may note that the Schlieffen plan was published in 1905/06, for the world to read."

I would love to know in what publication the world could have read the Schlieffen Plan in 1905 or in 1906. Do you honestly believe that the Military General Staffs of major powers publish their war plans for all to read Grishka? It would be a very novel world if that were the case, but I would think that on the contrary they would prize them and keep them as secret as possible just in case they had to use them. However, I would be delighted if you could furnish us with any substantive evidence to support that claim of yours, but I will not hold my breath as my expectation of you being able to provide such is extremely low.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 02:51 AM

Grishke, the Schliefen Plan was never "published for the world to read" !!

It was secret and the allies had no knowledge of it.
The French fell into the trap set for them in the centre, and did not expect the small British force to be heavily engaged.
You should read your own link.

You would also have seen this (my italics)

"Germany hoped that Britain, which was wary of making alliances due to its wish to remain neutral, would not honour the treaty and would not rush to the aid of Belgium. To Germany's dismay, Britain kept to the terms of the treaty and responded to German aggression against Belgium by declaring war on Germany. When Edward Goschen, the British ambassador to Germany, informed German chancellor Theobald von Bethmann-Hollweg that the two countries were now at war, Bethmann-Hollweg famously replied, "The Britons will go to war for a mere scrap of paper?"

If Britain wanted war, it would have prepared an army big enough not to be overwhelmed in the first week, which is what very nearly happened.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 05:43 PM

Teribus:
All sides used propaganda and we were no worse than any other.
Exactly, except for the pronoun "we", assuming that nobody originally responsible posts to Mudcat from the Hereafter. For reasons to be collectively ashamed, we may well stick to the politicians currently in power and elected by ourselves. Reasons to be collectively proud are even harder to find (- but some do exist!).

Keith, you may note that the Schlieffen plan was published in 1905/06, for the world to read. As you never fail to mention, it posed a case for the Treaty of London. Of course, such "scraps of paper" would often be ignored, but in this case it came handy, and the French government had no doubt about that - guess why.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 03:45 PM

So, no evidence that the British government had committed itself to join.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 11:41 AM

known for years in advance that war was imminent and the British government had committed itself to join,
I have seen no evidence for that.
Do you have any?
Known in advance: in France and in Germany the newspapers were full of it (by 1910), so at least British intelligence must have heard about it. Imminent does not mean unavoidable, but probable enough that any government failing to prepare for it would have been guilty of negligence and stupidity. However, too ostentatious a mobilization would have destroyed the propaganda story. (Again it must be stressed that many Germans and Austrians believed as honestly as Britons did that war was being forced on them by the enemy, respectively. Without that propaganda, recruiting would have been much more difficult. Only the tsar thought he could do without much propaganda because of his autocratic power - an error, as we know.)

Committed itself to join: by the treaties, as you (Keith) never fail to mention.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 10:32 AM

known for years in advance that war was imminent and the British government had committed itself to join,
I have seen no evidence for that.
Do you have any?

Jim yesterday.
"They have agreed that there was no threat of invasion of Britain"
Jim today
"everybody is aware of that so it doesn't matter anyway"

From that Guardian review.
"Paxman's version of history is one that neither Gove nor Cameron could have any objection to being used as part of the national curriculum. "


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 10:01 AM

There is no evidence that the British government wanted the war, and plenty that they did not.
Well done, Keith, to write "the British government" as opposed to "Britain". Of course, they would have preferred the other side to cave in, but they (and their newly won French allies) gambled with the risk.
If they wanted war, they might be expected to provide an army capable of fighting it.
Quite the opposite: since everybody had known for years in advance that war was imminent and the British government had committed itself to join, they would have to prepare for it even if they did not want it. The army was correctly judged sufficient for victory; the loss of life was part of the calculation, as Teribus described. Same in France.

And yes, some politicians in all countries had analyzed the situation of 1914 correctly, and already knew that the idea of a quick war was a miscalculation, but it seemed too late to stop it, for two reasons:
  1. Others did want the war even if it lasted as long and took as many lives as it did (think of arms manufacturers, military leaders etc.),
  2. On both sides, the propaganda had done its effect and could not be undone without loss of face. (Note that this is not just my guess, but statements to that effect are reported from France and Germany alike; your "distraught" Ministers point to the same direction.)
I do not know who exactly is to blame, for warmongering or for sleepwalking, and I do not consider this the most important question now that the conflict is over.

The main lesson to learn for us is to resist all nationalist propaganda. The second lesson is that "we did not want that war" is only credible if backed by an evidently fair offer of peace.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 10:01 AM

Musket, I was rather intrigued by this one:

"I'll believe we executed our own soldiers for not being up to expecting the truth when they got there."

Now what offence was that? - i.e. "not being up to expecting the truth when they got there."

What is this truth that are you referring to?

That their training did not make them aware that once they got there that the enemy would attack them or that they would be ordered to attack the enemy?

That their training did not make them aware that once they got there that the enemy would be making every attempt to kill them with any and every weapon that he could bring to bear?

That the enemy had artillery?

That explosions were loud and at times deadly?

That it might rain?

That living "in the field" might be uncomfortable?

That they would have to spend days in the front line trenches and that they would in the normal course of things be rotated out of that duty every three days and that they would not spend more than ten days in the front line area?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 09:23 AM

You are evading the issue
You have been rumbled or the jingoistic pratt that you are - everybody is aware of that so it doesn't matter anyway other than to underline that fact
Pip-pip
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 08:09 AM

The Guardian on the programme.
"By showing both how the fear of invasion was so great that the first trenches were dug along the cliffs of Dover and how towns in the north-east were shelled with a significant loss of life by the German navy, Paxman made it plain that the conflict wasn't confined to mainland Europe. The perception that it might spread to Britain itself was very real in the early years of the war."

"The causes of the war are reduced in a single sentence to, "The Kaiser wants to invade Russia and France and hasn't responded to Britain's 11pm deadline", with stiff-upper lipped British politicians sobbing openly at the inevitability and enormity of the catastrophe to come."
http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2014/jan/28/britains-great-war-jeremy-paxman-food-drink


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 08:00 AM

Jim, I do not lie.

I only made those 3 claims.
I claimed a majority, not specifically 80%
your list of reasons were all valid, but not the reason most volunteered.
"You have rejected long accepted understanding of WW1 -the facts we were taught in school"
That one is true.
Knowledge has moved on.
I derived my views by reading History.
All my views come from historians.
There are none now who do not believe what I believe.
That is why none of you have found one in 13 weeks of trying.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 06:41 AM

"Jim, I only put forward 3 views."
You are lying
You have claimed 80 per cent of the soldiers knew what they were fighting for - 'gallant little Belgium' - to oppose tyrany... and all the other bullshit.
You aclaimed that the fourteen reasons I drew from an official historically copiled lists of the reasons for joining as inventions on my part
You have called those who actually joined up as "liars and romantics"
You have rejected long accepted understanding of WW1 -the facts we were taught in school as "revisionist and romantic nonsense" and "ultra leftie propaganda".
Your jingoistic war has been fought on all fronts, now you have been defeated by one single programme, you have retreated back into your trench and are firing that targets that haven't even been put up yet.   
You have denied established history and have ridiculed the historians and the soldiers who fought the war by dismissing their life -long researches and their personal experiences out of hand.
You have surrounded yourself with a bunch of 'historians' (not forgetting your tabloid journalist - of course) who in the main haven't even said what you claim they said.
A war fought with only a handful of carefully selected out-of-context cut-'n-pastes was bound to end up as it has - in complete anihilation.
Hands up Tommy - for you the war is over.
"I'd love to know how Mons could be considered as a defeat"
Ask the programme makers - you pontificating little bar-room brigadier you.
"saving human lives was not the priority"
Amen to that - it was always a struggle for Empire.
If human life had ever been a factor in the thinking of them upstairs they would have raised their voices in protest at Belgium's slaughter of 10 million Congolese up to five years earlier - not a whisper then or now.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 06:29 AM

For Musket:

1: I'll stick to the accounts of those who were there.
Will you give equal credence to those that were there and actually didn't mind it? Or are you only prepared to stick to those accounts that suit your own bias?

Here's Dan Snow's take on the myth that everyone hated it:
" Like any war, it all comes down to luck. You may witness unimaginable horrors that leave you mentally and physically incapacitated for life, or get away without a scrape.
Many soldiers enjoyed the First World War. If they were lucky they would avoid a big offensive, and much of the time, conditions might be better than at home.
For the British there was meat every day – a rare luxury back home – cigarettes, tea and rum, part of a daily diet of over 4,000 calories.
Absentee rates due to sickness, an important barometer of morale were, remarkably, hardly above peacetime rates. Many young men enjoyed the guaranteed pay, intense comradeship, responsibility and a much greater sexual freedom."



2: "I'll stick to the appalling statistics."
I have given you the statistics of the battles that first blunted the German push through Belgium and into Northern France and I have given you the statistics relating to the Battle that stopped the Schlieffen Plan in its tracks which ended all hope of a quick and easy war as far as anybody with even a whit of knowledge was concerned. Do the results of those engagements indicate failure and defeat to you? Strange if they do, because the side you and Christmas seem to regard as having been defeated actually won the war - they would not have done had the German attack not been halted - Also please note that in all three battles the Germans always had numerical superiority (Another statistic for you to stick by)

3: "I'll stick to the jingoistic attempts to sow seeds in heads.
You are welcome to do so, but don't attribute nonsense like "Home before Christmas" and "White feathers" to any official Government policy or statement. All sides used propaganda and we were no worse than any other.

4:   "I'll believe we executed our own soldiers for not being up to expecting the truth when they got there."
And whilst you are exercising that belief, have the honesty to put that into perspective (346 men executed in an army that numbered over 4,000,000 - a minute fraction of the numbers involved - true?). Also in your eagerness to cling to this fact also state the fact in the interests of objectivity and accuracy that for every ten men sentenced to death nine had their sentences commuted – so in all honesty, as borne out by those statistics, you know, the ones that you claim that you are prepared to stick by, we weren't really all that keen on executing our own were we?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 05:42 AM

There is no evidence that the British government wanted the war, and plenty that they did not.
The programme showed that the Prime Minister and Cabinet Ministers were distraught at the prospect.
If they wanted war, they might be expected to provide an army capable of fighting it.

The fact is that Britain was unprepared for the war because it neither expected it nor wanted it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 05:39 AM

I'd love to know how Mons could be considered as a defeat, when outnumbered two to one the BEF managed to inflict casualties on the Germans of ~2.5 to 1, delayed the German advance, prevented the outflanking of the French Fifth Army while managing to withdraw in good order to re-engage the enemy two days later, then decisively defeat him while fighting alongside their French Allies two weeks later on the Marne?

But there again what would you expect from someone who on another topic claimed to know better the details of a meeting than someone who actually took part in the meeting in question. No wonder Christmas that you think you know more about the subject than both Jeremy Paxman and the consulting historian for the series Gary Sheffield, I mean you even claim to know more about what they meant - Do you really honestly claim to know what a person means better than they do themselves? If so your arrogance is astounding!!!

" it was a struggle for the domination of Europe by two Imperial powers - full stop" Quoth Christmas

What Imperial Powers are you referring to Christmas? Certainly could not have been Great Britain looking at it logically could it? I mean stack up the facts:

The Imperial German Army - It's peacetime Army numbered 500,000 and it raised an Army of 13,000,000 men in the First World War

The Imperial Austro-Hungarian Army - Peacetime Army of 450,000 and a mobilised field army of 3,350,000 in 1914.


The British Army of the day numbered at most 100,000 men - Logically hardly the sort of number you need to take on the above.

By the way Christmas care to enlighten us as to any period in the history of Great Britain when it has ever shown any interest in the "domination of Europe"?? I would have thought that if it ever had (Which it didn't) then 1815 would have been a good opportunity, but oh yeah, of course, how silly of me even at that time Britain didn't have a big enough Army.

How did Britain find itself involved in hostilities? Treaty obligations Christmas to both France and Russia and to Belgium. National interests they did not want to see Imperial Germany exercising hegemony over Europe and see Germany, Britain's greatest rival in terms of naval might with naval bases less than 100 miles from London. Seems logical and reasonable to me.

As far as records show in 1914 there was no need for any recruiting campaigns, the young men of all the combatant nations were rushing to join, simple matter of record Christmas. Great Britain did not have to introduce conscription until late 1916.

"Over before Christmas" - Nothing to do with the Government (Who knew a damned sight better) or the Army - just a popular misconception believed by the populations of all the combatant powers, not just that of the UK.

"White Feathers" - Nothing to do with the Government or the Army - IIRC it was instigated by civilians and pushed into prominence by the founders of the Movement for Women's Suffrage and they encouraged their members to distribute them to young men in civilian clothes. By the way it was the Women's Suffrage Movement that was advocating universal conscription in 1914, so it would appear that they were certainly all for the war, wouldn't it? The Government and the authorities in charge of the armed forces and the civil service were against the practice and were forced to bring out their own lapel badges to indicate that their personnel were engaged in the war effort although not in uniform.

"The Angel of Mons" - Pure fiction Google "Angels of Mons" and "Arthur Machen and The Bowmen". If you believe in such as the Angel of Mons, Christmas please give my regards and best wishes to Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 05:14 AM

It can certainly not be said that Britain (government, military, and newspapers etc.) went to war unprepared. For more than a decade, everybody was talking about it, whether approvingly or not. The Entente and the treaties with Russia and Belgium were obvious preparations.

Either side felt they would win, and hoped for the other side to realize that and cave in. In the meantime, the propaganda machines went hot. According to French folklore, Belgium was prepared as a propaganda trap - German soldiers stepped on it with glee, even more so than anticipated.

In other words: the war started in the 190x years, the British government being among the major actors, with plenty of options. By 1914, the die was cast, and initially things went according to plan. Withdrawal in 1914 would have been illogical from the government point of view.

"Unprepared" may be true for those particular troops, in the sense that saving human lives was not the priority we would want it to be nowadays.

In my opinion, "sleepwalking" can only be diagnosed for the continuation of the war in 1915. (Clark was mainly concerned with the Balkan theatre, a different topic.) They had built racing cars and forgotten the brakes. Vabanque gambling, I would call it.

Dave the Gnome, 28 Jan 14 - 08:39 AM, is quite right that the dispute is not so much about facts than about our evaluations from the present-day point of view. Analogies have been offered in the media, to Iran, China, Russia, Syria ... Some lessons have been learned, but never enough.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 03:47 AM

Jim, I only put forward 3 views.
Britain had no choice but to resist the German onslaught, the British people overwhelmingly understood and accepted that, and that the British army was not badly led.

The programme addressed the first two, and was in agreement.
No surprise, because I put up Paxman's expressed views before the programme aired.

"You called me a liar for inventing the "it'll all over by Christmas" slogan"
Of course you did not invent it!
I showed that one of your own sources said it had no impact, and it certainly did not come from government.

I did not call Sassoon et al liars.
I said that their views were not typical or in anyway representative of the majority.
(Paxman said the same in interviews.)

And Jim, I have been reading books about this war all my life.
You clearly have read nothing published less than 30 years ago.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 03:32 AM

Keith
Your arguments here have now become little more than a diversion away from the facts that your whole argument throughout this thread has been sunk without trace by the first BBC programme
Who gives a toss about the inevitability of the war - that has yet to be discussed - it was touched on briefly, but the first statement that was made was that it was a struggle for the domination of Europe by two Imperial powers - full stop - not the jingoistic "Gallant little Belgium" line you were pumping out.
The Mons fiasco was enough to show how well it was conducted and all the Jeremy Paxman quotes in the world don't alter that one iota.
Your claims on the reasons men joined up was scuppered with the way the recruiting campaign was carried out - the appeal for "petticoats for the cowards" - "King and country", "virility", "the savage Hun" as depicted by war profiteer Bottomly's racist shows, bayoneted, breastless women.... all that and more showed the cynicism and dishonest manner in which the men were recruited - they never got round to the white feathers - but that'll come, I have no doubt.
How well it managed to convince the poor buggers who joined up was shown by the recruits who went off to pick blackberries instead of drilling and training.
You called me a liar for inventing the "it'll all over by Christmas" slogan, yet there it was - the poor sods who went off to be slaughtered at Mons setting off for a "short war that'll be all over by Christmas"   
You described the old soldier who told is of his experiences in Europe as "a liar" because his account didn't coincide with your gung-ho image of life in the trenches
We have yet to see if Sassoon Owen, Liddel Harte.... and all the other veterans you have also called "liars and romantics", were also telling the truth in their accounts of their experiences.
Your appalling attempts to sell what has long been recognised as the barbaric death-throes of a dying Empire, as a glorious struggle for freedom against tyranny appears to have fallen at the first fence.
I have no doubt that your behaviour from here on will amount to little more than a face saving exercise on your part to justify the jingoistic crap you have been pumping out over the last few months.
Your reputation here will no doubt take precedence over the memories of the millions who died so that Britannia could continue to "Rule the waves".
You get more and more squalid with every posting you make.
But then again, maybe we're all wrong - maybe you are as "infallible" on World War One as you claim to be on religious persecution and we "swine you cast your pearls before" are all the bunch of idiots you constantly tell us we are.
And all this without ever reading a book - (maybe the Angel of Mons has come back down and touched you with her wand of divinity.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 02:37 AM

11 minutes in. Paxman voice over,
"The British High Command believed that Britain might be invaded at any time."
" the first British trenches were not in Belgium or France, they were here in England."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 02:33 AM

c


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 12:55 AM

The programme showed that the first trenches were dug around our coast.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Christmas Truce (1914)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 03:05 PM

"I supplied copious historical evidence that the threat was very real, as did the programme last night."
No it didn't - it produced a single example of the bombardment of Scarborough came after Britain had 'walked blindfolded and unprepared' and was defeated at Mons'
It was on the cards that you would attempt to snatch some sort of "victory' out of last night's conclusive contradiction of your views - don't you always?
All the points in my description are accurate - show us which are not, stop side-stepping them.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


Next Page

 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 1 May 12:00 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 2022 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.