BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:11 PM

well i,m not gonna pin you to the wall with one hand and a bible in the other don!
hopefully see you at the rising sun.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 06:28 AM

200

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 07:18 PM

""don-i appreciate your sharing of your past.""

It was a very important factor in my development, as it taught me that there is a world of difference between "Faith" and "Religion".

I incline toward belief in a Creator, while emphatically eschewing religious organisations.

I don't expect anybody else to follow my example, which is why it infuriates me when members of a religious organisation expect me to follow their path.

Proselytising callers at my front door receive very short shrift, and almost never return.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 12:18 PM

Simcha Jacobovici isn't an archaeologist, but an Orthodox Jewish journalist, with a not so hidden agenda. Archaeology in the Holy Land started out trying to find evidence to support the biblical accounts but has come long way since then. Jacobobovici is high on enthusiasm but not very good on logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 10:36 AM

interesting posts all.
don-i appreciate your sharing of your past.

thanks mousethief for helpful adjustments to dons estimates.

dave-did,nt mean to imply massive difference.
dont know about tablets;new to me.though i would agree with the archaeologist,he seems to be overstating the evidence in favour of mosaic authorship-though a challenge to liberal scholars.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 08:00 PM

Speaking to personal experience, as the product of 800 years of Irish ancestry I was brought up in the Roman Catholic faith.

Baptised at six weeks, Catholic Primary School, first Communion at seven, Confirmed at fourteen, I was well and truly a God fearing child.

When I moved up to a Catholic, boys only, public (fee paying) grammar school, thanks to a scholarship awarded for the four top eleven plus results in London each year, I found myself in the less than tender care of God's Stormtroopers, the Jesuit Brothers, and a small number of ordained Catholic priests.

By this time, I had a lot of questions to which I needed answers, and I asked them, not in any disrespectful fashion, but purely out of a genuine desire for knowledge.

The initial response was an instant dismissal of my questions with responses which did not give me answers, but merely enjoined me to accept as a matter of faith the mysteries of God's purpose.

Being a stubborn young bugger (which hasn't changed) I persisted, and was thrown out of class.

Further enquiries were met with a series of beatings which went on till the Brother's arm was so tired he could no longer lift the two foot by four inch strip of flexible leather wired to a foot of broom handle known as the "Beaver Tail".

None of it shut me up so at fourteen I was permanently banned from Religious Instruction classes as a bad influence who might corrupt the other boys.

At sixteen I took GCE "O" Levels in nine subjects including RI (it was compulsory back then), and in RI I got an A+, the highest grade, which absolutely infuriated the master in charge of Religious Instruction.

All it proved for me was that they had absolutely no purpose except to re-inforce the programming of the Primary School years.

In five years not one question was answered.

I left the Catholic Faith behind, and I've never regretted so doing.

Those Priests and Brothers were not there to educate, inform, or enlighten.......Rather the opposite.

And that was mainstream Christian teaching, not right wing fundamental.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 07:17 PM

None of which detracts from my comments re the "Chinese Whispers effect", which would still allow for considerable distortion.

Nor do they obviate the possibility of those writers having, as you put it, ""an axe to grind""

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 07:11 PM

Yes mouse. I intended to date that hundred plus from his birth rather than death to conform with the timings re Constantine.

My mistake.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 07:09 PM

I don't see how Don's sources (and interpretation) are all that different from mine. The only thing I'd say is that some of the writings date from before the fall of the Temple in Ad 70 - check the wording of the prophesies. The organization of episcopalian churches faithfully mirrors that of the Roman civil service, and there is a sizeable body within modern Christianity that doesn't see Constantine and the Council of Niceae as a 'good thing'.

Incidentally, there is a movement of mainly Anglicans called the "Sea of Faith", some of whom describe themselves as "agnostic, atheist or nontheist."

With regard to rational thought, I remember reading nearly half a century ago, possibly in one of Tim Dinsdale's books on the Loch Ness Monster, about a nineteenth century French scientist who proved conclusively that the giant squid did not exist, primarily on the grounds that he'd never had one in his laboratory.

On the other side I was watching an episode of the "Naked Archaeologist" recently where Simcha Jacobovici asserted that the discovery of two pre-exile tablets containing texts identical to those in the Masoretic text was proof that the first five books of the Hebrew Bible hab been dictated to Moses and transmitted thenceforth in written form, rather than having been compiled during the exile in Babylon, as most modern Bible scholars agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: mousethief
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 06:57 PM

Don: Jesus died aged thirty three, and over one hundred years later the first written accounts of his life and death appeared.

Inaccurate. Most critical scholars date Mark at about 70 AD/CE, a mere 37 years after Jesus' death, which is a lot lower than 100. (Conservative scholars date it even earlier but they have their own axes to grind.)

Ignatius, writing in 110, knew of the Gospel of Matthew, making it at most 77 years after Christ's death. There are reasons to think it was written earlier, but that's a definite terminus ad quem.

Critical scholars put Luke at ca. 80-90, a mere 47 to 57 years after Christ's death.

You may be right about John; dates from scholars are all over the map.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 06:10 PM

""dave-sounds like your reading of history accords with mine rather than dons.different sources maybe?.""

OK, here is the history.

Jesus died aged thirty three, and over one hundred years later the first written accounts of his life and death appeared.

The Christians were persecuted because of their insistence on separating Caesar and God (Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's).

The were hounded, imprisoned and executed in huge numbers until 300 years after Jesus' birth.

In 274 A.D. Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus was born at Naissus in modern day Serbia.

He became an Emperor of Rome in 306 A.D. and in 312 A.D. he defeated Emperor Maxentius at the battle of the Milvian Bridge over the Tiber, in which river Maxentius drowned. This led to the destruction of the Tetrarchy and Constantine's elevation to sole Emperor of the whole Roman Empire.

It was after this battle that he converted to Christianity, which, under his patronage and protection, rapidly became the dominant religion, and was firmly established as such by 337 A.D. when Constantine died.

All of which is easily verifiable historical fact.

Check it out Pete.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 04:47 PM

The story about Lot and his daughters is quite complex (both before & after fleeing Sodom) and is a common one used to show how inconsistent and strange the Bible can be...in relation to what WE would think & do.

The story of Noah...and of Abraham & Isaac... and of Jonah & the whale...and of Elisha & the bears...and a dozen others... are all reasons why many, many have retreated from even trying to take the Bible as 'literal truth'. All we can do is shrug when folks inform us that they DO 'believe it as literal truth'.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 04:20 PM

dave-sounds like your reading of history accords with mine rather than dons.different sources maybe?.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 02:15 PM

"After all, the chemical stew on the comets seem to be the best bet till we get a better picture."

Does that rule out the concept that material reaching Earth from Mars may have been implicated, in some way? Although, that likely just adds another potential step.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 01:44 PM

Steamin' Willie (Whut?, that wasn't Noah, but Lot. And it was not a case of a man raping his daughters but his daughters raping their father (through getting him inebriated).

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 01:39 PM

Hey, steamin'...I did not say it was the cause of ALL life on Earth! I said it might have played some part in affecting life on Earth in various ways...by seeding some new species here...by introducing genetic changes to some organisms here...etc.

I agree that Noah and the Ark is not a believable story...if taken literally. If, however, it is an exaggerated legend based upon some real incident(s) of great floods and of survivors in the remote past...and Noah is a simplified and much embellished symbolic version of what really happened, a version that the Israelites came up with in order to put themselves at the center of the story...then it is, like many other legends, based on something that really occurred in the past, but was then turned into a story that was culturally adapted to suit the ideas of some people at a later time.

That sort of thing has happened over and over again. People shape a story to fit their own cultural viewpoint and their own social concerns.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 01:12 PM

Hang on, I forgot it's just after Xmas.

Somebody has been listening to their old Chris De Burgh albums again.

Rational means just that. Whilst nobody can give evidence that a spaceman didn't come a travelling, it doesn't mean it is a logical explanation for life on earth. After all, the chemical stew on the comets seem to be the best bet till we get a better picture.

Explanations without basis, whether it be religious or just dreamt up today, is not a good description of "rational". Mental leaps based on evidence such as the chemical compositions of comets is the start of a rational investigation. Not necessarily the truth, but uses a few facts to start the hypothesis.

Noahs ark however is not a rational basis for explaining reality. It is a fairy story based on, perhaps, the opening of the black sea into the med, but who knows?

It certainly ain't two by two etc. For that you would need a God and thats where it falls down.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 01:08 PM

There are innumerable possibilities, and among them is the possibility that alien races have periodically visited this planet in ancient times and seeded some of the lifeforms here...both animal and human...well, and perhaps some plant lifeforms too.

But that's another whole discussion. ;-) It would be responded to with howls of outrage and ridicule anyway, by various individuals who have already arbitrarily decided in their own minds that it could NEVER have happened! (despite having no rational basis for such certainty)....so just forget I even mentioned it, and carry on as before, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 01:01 PM

"They've (aboriginals) arrived in Australia 44,000 years before the earth even existed"

Given that, could they be of an Alien source, Or, just very many early gods,wrapped into one pre-god. I know, it's all start'in to confuse me too :)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 12:26 PM

Oh, the amoebae went in two by four,
By eight, by sixty four, by five hundred and twelve, by sixteen thousand three hundred and eighty four....

Christians eh? never enough lions around when you could do with the buggers....

Am I dreaming, or does the bible rattle on about Noah raping his own daughters? Now.. considering churches have policies for anti harassment, I doubt this particular hero of theirs would pass a CRB check?

Come to think about it, churches (and mosques, synagogues etc) also need (for their charitable trusts) policies in place for tolerance and diversity, let alone equality!   

Makes you think, doesn't it?

This silly waffle about dinosaurs fitting into scriptures is just the tip of the iceberg. Isn't it about time we debated the latest antics of the old guy in a white dress, red shoes and bits missing off his CV? Far more fun and just as lacking in reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Stu
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 10:36 AM

Good point about the Aborigines. They've arrived in Australia 44,000 years before the earth even existed, if creationism is to be believed.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 10:23 AM

Like I said above...why even try...??? It would be like telling someone in the 1500s about airplanes and space travel. No hope of getting them to listen to that, right?


You could if it was Leonardo da Vinci.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 07:16 AM

The reason the Romans didn't like Christians initially was that, like the Jews, Christians didn't acknowledge the divinity of Caesar. The main change in the stories was the separation of the followers of Jesus from "the Jews", as by the second half of the first century, the leaders of the temple cult, formerly agents of Roman rule, had made themselves very unpopular, hence the destruction of the temple and Massada.

Later, the Roman Empire assimilated the Jesus Cult, with the result that the Bishop of Rome ended up acquiring some of the Emperor's titles, such as "Pontiff".

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 07:05 AM

I have been recording and watching a series of programs on ancient civilisations recently. Not for the first time, I have been acquainted with the notion that Romans embraced cultures and religions, making them part of the Roman culture. Much easier to control people if you don't threaten their heritage.

I assume Christians didn't like the idea of being assimilated?

Too true about the 100 year gap in stories being collated. Newspapers distort as events unfold, so how about writers who are trying to push a point?

I have read parts of the King James bible, mainly because the wonderful writing style is a history lesson in itself. However, I have also read Tolkien, enjoying his style too. On balance, he tells a better story for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 06:39 AM

""if the deciples did "spice up the pudding";it seems that they were willing to suffer and die for it.seems very foolish if they did,nt believe it themselves, or had falsified the story.""

Here is one of the problems Pete. The first written records of the New Testament did not appear until over a hundred years after Jesus' death.

The "Chinese Whispers" effect over several generations of a group which was being actively persecuted might be expected to produce considerable distortion of the facts.

The Romans executed Christians. They didn't try to convert them first, they just got shot of 'em ASAP.

In those circumstances, martyrs killed for refusing to convert are quite unlikely.

Much more likely is that the leaders of the movement, needing a rallying call, adjusted the stories to suit.

I can't prove that is what happened, so I present it as a possibility.

You can't prove that it wasn't, but you ignore the possibility and claim martyrdom as an established fact.

To me that epitomises the difference between science and faith.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 05:55 AM

I note those living in Queensland Australia are calling their floods "biblical."

Now, that's interesting. Aborigines have been there longer than the ark fairy stories, so factoring that into the equation you get..

Even more bollocks.

Biblical eh? A useful word, meaning extraordinary or beyond comprehension. Says it all really. It isn't the first (or last) time that fairy stories can impact on reality. There is (or was) a Sherlock Holmes exhibition on Baker St in London.

No problem with people saying "I believe" as I believe in Sheffield Wednesday despite results that test the faith.

What I do have a problem with however is the tedium of superstitious people thrusting their delusions on others in the belief that they are relevant to non members. Pretending that all things were on the ark is nice, in the same way that Santa coming down the chimney is nice. Trying to relate in in the real world though is where I stop nodding sagely and start pointing and laughing. Sorry, but that's how it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 01:11 PM

Ed T.. thanks for the link to the article on peer review. There's a lot to muse on when you have digested the main points. (The opening paragraphs do set the scene nicely)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 12:42 PM

pete - People will suffer and die for any cause if they really believe in it, and I'm sure the disciples of Jesus really believed in the cause they were espousing. Whether such behaviour is "foolish" or "courageous" is strictly a matter of individual interpretation, right?

They might still have spiced up the stew and improved upon the story, even if they were entirely sincere in spreading the teachings of Jesus. They would have done so because they felt it was necessary in order to have the religion gain enough converts and succeed in establishing itself. The end would therefore justify the means.

I mean, heck, people are always spicing up and embellishing their stories in order to make them sound better. They do this naturally, hardly even thinking about it. They exaggerate a bit, then a bit more. They leave out the parts that aren't "good" enough. They add in some neat little features to make it more exciting. Ordinary people do this when they tell stories, politicians do it, and religious people do it. I think it's very probable that the disciples did it too.

I think the only way we could possibly be sure exactly what Jesus said and did, and exactly how it all happened, would be if we could go back in a time machine and be right there on the spot to witness it as it all unfolded.

And wouldn't that be something! I'd love a chance to do that, because like anyone else...I really want to know for sure. Alas, we have no such time machine at present.

There's no book out there that I have absolute faith in. How could there be? Books are written by people, and people are fallible.

I think that the only reason many Christians have absolute faith in the Bible is this: they were told by some other Christians that the Bible is the one and only and unimpeachable Word of God. And they chose to believe those other Christians....! But on what basis???? Heaven only knows! ;-) What they have really done is this: they have put absolute faith in what some other people told them...and they have then extended that absolute faith to include a single book, the Bible.

That's exactly what most Muslims do in regards to their holy books, the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Koran. (those are their 3 holy books, but they place by far the most attention on the most recent book: the Koran)

I place absolute faith in no book, and in no creed, but in life itself. To me, life itself is the living Word of God, and by that I mean the entire experience of life as I experience it directly, and as I learn from it. I know it's real, because I am experiencing it directly at all times, and I draw all my conclusions from that. Life, to me, is the Holy of Holies.

That being the case, I find God everywhere and in everything. I am always standing within the midst of what is sacred. That strikes me as a good way of learning about the Word of God if one wants to learn. Just observe and participate in life as fully as possible, and do so with respect and attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Stu
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 11:56 AM

"he is certainly ioving, as ultimately demonstrated in the sacrifice of Christ for our sin.
but being just and holy; punishment is necessary."

Is he Pete? What about the parasitic nematode worms Onchocerca volvulus that cause river blindness across the world. According to creationism, God apparently saw fit to create this animal (and others like it) which infect millions every year, causes immense suffering and death to people whose only sin is to be born into a poor, tropical country.

Of course you might say that 'the Lord works in mysterious ways', or try blaming the victim for some unknown transgression of a law lain down by the representatives of a God they have never heard of, but that would hardly be compatible with the loving, benevolent God you worship. It would suggest he meant to cause that suffering - he condemned those people in a lottery of suffering visited upon them by the arbitrary feeding patterns of another of his creatures that delivers this parasite, a fly. You can't say God didn't create this animal with this life-cycle as you must believe he did. To deny he did is to deny the creation, to deny God. But to accept he did create this worm is also to accept in his wisdom he new he would inflict suffering on people who were not even born then. Countless generations of suffering on his whim. How does that square with a loving God?

Now I'm guessing that God is happy enough for science to struggle to find ways of avoiding and curing these horrendous diseases and infections, but isn't loving enough to do it himself or even not create the creature that causes this suffering in the first place. It seems not though.

Of course, it might just be that this animal evolved to fill a niche which includes having humans as part of its life cycle with all the unpleasant consequences that means for the victims. It evolved without malice or as part of some grand scheme, another element of our biosphere we are trying to understand and cope with, from mosquito nets to DNA.

Which is more than creationism could ever allow.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 11:54 AM

thanks little hawk for your thoughtful response.
if the deciples did "spice up the pudding";it seems that they were willing to suffer and die for it.seems very foolish if they did,nt believe it themselves, or had falsified the story.

as you suggest the early church did not separate from the jewish worship at first,and went to the non jews after rejection of their message.i understand that rome at first tolerated christians as a subset of judaism, but later persecuted them-not tolerating a lord and saviour of mankind other than caesar.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 11:30 AM

There is a natural evolution of things in which even the tea party christians will notice changing the nature of their short lived cause to save America. This evolution applies to all man made movements...

It starts with a cause or a good idea and becomes a movement.
The movement becomes a business
and the business becomes a criminal racket.

plug and play any "cause" into this equation and you will see the inviolate truth of this natural evolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 11:23 AM

Can you imagine what the fundamentalist tea party heaven must look like?
A land where rivers flow with oil, a land free of illegal unions, a land free to perform any abuse on earth for a regulation free market profit. Even in Alaska where 2/3 of the state is zoned for drilling, in the christian heaven it will be 3/3's owned by big oil.

Who knows maybe big Phrama will come out with a drug that will make Christians closer to God and more strident in their associations with their secular neighbors. Big Corp sees a brave new world where people are not just born with sin, BUT WITH HUGE DEBT.
People will have a gas bill, a water bill, a food bill, an electric bill, and even an air bill... all the while paying for the taxes of their billionaires.

A pledge to Corporations may replace the flag.
"I indemnify the banks of Untied States of America, and to the interest we must pay, one Corporation - UNDER GOD - to obey for ever, and ever and ever."

As long as corporations represent themselves as God loving and that any enemy of corporate power as God hating, they will have a firm grasp of their base by the short and curlies.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 10:29 AM

Note:Some of the comments below the article I just linked are more interesting than the article itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 10:23 AM

LH, an interesting article, I believe related to earlier points made by you, as to the importance in allowing for bias in any field (nothing is infallible).

Science peer review

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 09:23 AM

And who got in between the meat eaters and vegetable meaters to prevent any bloodshed I wonder? Or who was the poor devil who drew the short straw to do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 09:08 AM

"Never play leapfrog with a unicorn."


I believe I posted this related Redd Fox joke before. But, it was one of my Redd favourites.

Redd said he visited a nudist colony, and they were playing leap frog. He joined in the game. But, was quickly disqualified because he wasn't jumping high enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 01:22 AM

Here's a new thought worth pondering:

Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 09:38 PM

Ya got it right, Don.
I became bored.
Again, your win, my loss.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 05:43 PM

""OK you win...Feel better now?"2

What has winning to do with it?

It's about accuracy in defining the terms of a discussion, without which not much of meaning emerges.

""I learned a life lesson many years ago that it is at times better to give some folks the pride of a win, rather to go on with a back and forth, pointless, argument.""

Now you are just being gratuitously insulting. Never in my time as a Mudcat Member have I gloated or shown pride in winning.

What you seem to want is blind acceptance of your viewpoint right or wrong, which tends to cast you in the same mould as the Creationists

What I am after is to discuss the same topic.

It's best if both sides know what that topic is, rather than me talking about apples, and you responding on the subject of oranges.

However, if you are too bored to bother that's fine by me.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 05:28 PM

Yeah, pete, I know about that, but I put a different interpretation on it, that's all. I have a tremendous liking and admiration for Jesus and for the fine example he set in his teachings and his exemplary conduct. I think he was a very inspired spiritual teacher and healer. I don't think he was the only ordained son of God...or that he died as a ransom for anyone's sins.

What I suspect happened was that after Jesus' death (and/or his resurrection and ascension..at any rate, his departure) his closest followers tried first of all to reform the local Jewish faith according to what he'd taught them...but they were persecuted and in some cases killed for trying to do so. They eventually gave up trying to change the local Jewish religion of that time and they started their own new religion instead...and they had some infighting then as to who among them would get to lead it and determine its basic ideas, etc.

And I think they edited much of what Jesus said and did to spice up the pudding, so to speak, because they were trying, after all, to gain converts to a brand new religion. They had to sell that religion effectively to people. I think that they themselves made up a lot of the stuff that is now standard Christian doctrine.

I may be wrong about that, of course. But that is my theory on it. I'm in no position to know for sure about any of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 05:10 PM

I should make one amendment to my last post. Love does give rewards. It just doesn't make itself conditional on the basics of only giving a promised reward if the preconditions are met, that's all. One should definitely reward children for any good that they do, and that reward is primarily in recognizing that good and giving it your full appreciation. Praise and appreciation go a long way toward building confidence and self-worth in a child.

If there were a God, I should think he or she would love humanity and inspire them by the example of that love, not attempt to frighten them into obedience. The Bible does speak of a God who loves humanity....but it's also big on dire punishments meted out by that same God. I don't think much of the punishment aspect. I think the Hebrew elders were simply imagining a God in their own hard-nosed, violent, and unforgiving image. I would not want to live under such a harsh, vicious patriarchy as they had in those days, bent as it was upon vengeance, punishment, and (in many cases) bloody murder. If you look at the patriarchies of modern Muslim fundamentalism, they are much the same...and not surprisingly! They're based on the same set of original holy books! ;-)

You might gather that I like the New Testament a whole lot better than I do the Old Testament. ;-) Although...I do like certain parts of the Old Testament, like Proverbs or The Song of Solomon, for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 05:05 PM

little hawk-you make a good argument,but it seems to leave aside biblical teaching that speaks about God.
he is certainly ioving, as ultimately demonstrated in the sacrifice of Christ for our sin.
but being just and holy; punishment is necessary.
love and justice are both satisfied at the cross event for believing sinners.
i would suppose you know this,but dont accept it,at least at present

hi penny -3rd poster on here from fox and hound days!
i read article and some other stuff which talked fairly extensively about greywacke but geology is definately not my subject.i also read about george fairholme on creation.com which also referred to the geologists that recanted their biblical position,whom i presume you were referring to.
i,m unsure but might this be due to 19c catastrophists not accepting the flood as causing the strata?.

it seems that you are comfortable with a low view of biblical authority but for myself that is not an option.if creation is a poetic myth then the teaching of jesus and the NT writers is not trustworthy either since they referred often to genesis.that of course is irrelivant to unbelievers but crucial to myself.

ps-new singaround at the rising sun kemsing near F and H 3rd mondays.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 04:19 PM

(why, yes...I did type this with my nose.)

Some may seem to type with their ass:)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 03:54 PM

pete - Yes, I understand what Israel's role presumably was to be, as put forth in the Bible...as you have explained it.

I just don't buy it, that's all.

I think that God...if there is a God...would expect exactly the same from all of us...or would have, better yet, NO expectations of us, but just a great deal of love for us.

Rather as a parent loves a child. One should not have expectations of one's children. That leads to a lot of pain and sorrow. One should only love them...without any preconditions, without any expectations, without any rewards, punishments or demands. Love is not love if it's conditional. It might be a degree of affection. It might be merely attraction. It might be attachment or a sense of ownership. But it's not love.

NOTE: I am not saying in the above that children do not require guidance, discipline, and direction. They do. And if you love them, and aren't afraid to love them, you will give them guidance, discipline, and direction...because to not do so would be a betrayal of your children and would greatly harm them in time.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Penny S.
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 02:45 PM

Found a reference.

Creationists visit Siccar Point

It isn't the one I remember. It does argue that the site shows signs of much more rapid deposition than usually accepted. I presume this is to support a Noachian rather than a neptunian event It does not explain how a greywacke, which forms on the edge of continental shelves over millenia, with a shale, which also takes rather a long time to deposit in that environment, was cemented into rock and uplifted, hard enough to be eroded, in a short length of time. There is a slitheriness about this omission I find concerning.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Penny S.
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 02:28 PM

OK, they did go out with the assumption that what they were seeing had natural causes, and they did go out to challenge the neptunist interpretation that all was sedimentary. And found answers in sedimentary rocks.

Cannot find any reference on google to a creation science field trip - sorry.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Penny S.
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 02:19 PM

I've been holding back on this - I did try to find the source of a quote about the original geologists, but couldn't. It was something about them going out into the field as creationists, but finding there evidence which changed their minds.

And lo, next week, on BBC2, on Thursday, at 9 pm, the current face of Earth Sciences in the media, Iain Stewart, is starting a three part series on "Men of Rock", the founders of geology, with a programme on James Hutton.

These men who tramped Scotland did not go out with preconceptions, to toe the accepted line to keep their place in academe, and were not tied to grant or corporate funding when they established a great age for the Earth. And anyone who goes out there with open eyes can find the same things. (A creationist group went to examine Hutton's Unconformity, and they did not find what they wanted to find, and their report stated they needed more work. Sorry, haven't kept the reference.)

Personally, I think it is irrelevant to living a good life to place too great a concern on a literal belief in the Bible as a history book. It is an issue in which I agree with Galileo. The book is to teach us how to live, not to teach us how the world works. And even that needs care - just look what happens with literalists in Israel now, who are reliving the Bronze Age with modern weapons.

People can live Christly lives whatever they believe about Genesis.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 02:04 PM

"Couldn't you ease up a little on this sort of pedantry and give me some benefit of the doubt now and then? "


**sitting on my hands**.... (why, yes...I did type this with my nose.)

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 01:50 PM

little hawk-i know you dont accept the inspiration of the bible,at least as i do ,but possibly i might at least clarify it,s teaching as regards israel.
it was not Gods purpose to favour israel entirely for their own sake,but also as an example to other nations[much of the time they failed in this]
people from other nations sometimes were directed by him.some came to worship him even in OT times, and accepted in israel.
with the coming of Jesus the call was finally fulfilled that opened the way for all nations to be accepted as Gods chosen.
the flip side for israel was that God expected more of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Dinosaurs and Unicorns on the Ark!
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 06:27 AM

LH, I get your point.

I learned a life lesson many years ago that it is at times better to give some folks the pride of a win, rather to go on with a back and forth, pointless, argument...such as "if a tree falls in the forest"... or, "do bears shit in the woods". I took philosophy classes in school, and found some discusssions could be mentally stimulating. But, I quickly clued in that most of the disussions did not mean a hill of beans to anyones life:)