BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts

Subject: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 04:43 PM

The latest piece of human rights nonesense being debated by the UK govt, is "votes for convicted criminals"

Apparently the latest thinking is that if they have done something bad.....they can vote in elections.
If they've done something very bad.....they cannot!

I despair at the extent of our gullibility.

These divisive "issues" are simply a smokescreen, there is now only one "issue"......"How are we to survive"

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:31 PM

Why should a prisoner be disenfranchised as a punishment, in addition to having his/her liberty taken away? Even a criminal should have a say in an election. After all, when his/her release is due, the elected Government will be in power and will affect his/her life. What other 'rights' should they be barred from? Library books? Access to the Internet? Visits from family? Fresh air and exercise? It is the lack of liberty alone which constitutes the punishment. There is a tendency to want to inflict vengeance on lawbreakers, and a conflict between punishment and reform. I have visited at eight prisons in the UK, and these issues are always to the fore.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:38 PM

I have no idea what goes on in England. But in America I'd be suprised if many convicted felons have a long track record of voting. Why not expend energy on an issue of real importance?

In America - no. I DON'T think a criminal should have a say in an election. But that's just my two cents worth.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:39 PM

I should have clarified that I was NOT an inmate but a Prison Visitor!

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: BTNG
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:48 PM

A question. Are there those in England who would, like some U.S states,who deny the right to vote to those convicted of a serious crime after the said person or persons have been released from prison after serving their sentence? Canada allowed only prisoners serving a term of less than 2 years the right to vote, but this was found unconstitutional in 2002 by the Supreme Court of Canada and all prisoners were allowed to vote as of the 2004 Canadian federal election.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:53 PM

Considering how many people are being found innocent of the crimes for which they have served lengthy prison terms... They are not only wrongfully incarcerated, they are disenfranchised. And most of them Blacks who fought years to get the right to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: gnu
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:58 PM

"Even a criminal should have a say in an election."

Does that include the politicians?

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:06 PM

Heck, here in the US I've seen people wheel granny in to the voting precinct in a wheelchair and looking' at granny and seein' in her eyes that, ahhhh, no one is home and then these people get to "assist" granny (wink, wink) in the voting booth... Ah huh???

Hey, if people who don't know their own names are allowed to vote for people then, geeze, seems that folks who do shopuld be able to vote, too...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:37 PM

Of course in the UK we no longer have the distinction between a misdemeanour and a felony, not do we have the status of outlawry.

Nonetheless I see the intrusion of the ECHR on our society's voting rules as intrusive, and it seems to me that there is considerable force in arguing that a society is entitled to add disenfranchisement to the penalties of conviction - or imprisonment, since the two are different.

The concept seems to me to be that those imprisoned are found to have decided seriously to flout the rules of the society in which they are present, and may be held to have disentitled themselves to its benefits.

The formality of the situation could be decided by an amendment to the Human Rights Act. Some time ago the UK did not accept direct application to the ECHR, and that, with a qualification, could be restored.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: gnu
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:55 PM

Charles Manson should be allowed to vote? Why not? After all, Garge was elected twice. The American CITIZENS who elected (HAH!) that nutbar unqualified twit are just about as crazy as Chuck so why not?

Sorry to my Yankee brothers for uttering that disparaging diatribe but allowing criminals to vote is is just odd to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:09 PM

In Canada the hot issue is the government paying old age pensions to serial killers like Clifford Olson. He is nearly old enough to qualify but the government is trying to change the law to prevent it happening.
Members of Parliament themselves have the fattest pensions in the land and if they ever throw that bunch in jail I expect that they would draw theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: gnu
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:27 PM

6 years in office and they calve out to get their fat pensions with no waiting period. We had two in a row resign after the 6 six years. One of them was a "saint" in sheep's clothing. Unreal.

Olson... now, there's a candidate for a shive in the yard. Piece of garbage.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:35 PM

With my son's first conviction came the understanding that he had lost his right to vote. I was devastated. He didn't have a clus. Says it all, I guess.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: EBarnacle
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:45 PM

Here in the US, the rules vary. Some felons are allowed to vote only after rehabilitation and release. Some while they are in jail; some not at all after conviction; some while in office.

In some jurisdictions, they are allowed only to vote for state or local positions.

In some they are counted among the strongest supporters of local politicians.

I believe this is one of the issues the Constitution is mute over and, as such, there are as many answers as there are authorities.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:59 PM

So, gn-ze... How do you think Charles Manson would vote???

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 09:03 PM

For Palin, for sure, Bobert. That moose dressing would clinch it.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 09:33 PM

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 09:35 PM

Yeah, Sins.... Ol' Charlie would be a Palin-ite thru and thru...

Might of fact, I think Charlie and Ms. Sarah would make a good team... Of course, she'd have to listen to "Helter Skelter" a couple hundred times to get it... That, of course, would be the just the beginning and then it would be Todd rather than the moose and then next thing ya' know it's the "Palin/Manson" ticket form 2012...

Maybe she could get a little swastika tattooed on her foerhead like Charlies... Maybe some matching camos??? I donno???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 12:02 AM

In Alaska, felons can be 'reconstituted' in regards to their voiting rights unless they were convicted of 'moral turpitude'.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 12:34 AM

Seems to me that robbery, burglary, murder, rape, arson, embezzlement, blackmail, extortion, manslaughter, a history of alcohol/drug abuse, making meth, selling illegal drugs, pimping and similar peccadilloes would indicate "moral turpitude."

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 01:37 AM

Ya think?

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 02:06 AM

As has been said above, the rules vary from one state to the next in the US.

In a recent Congressional election there was some investigative activity regarding the suspicion that inmates at at least two prisons, in two different states, quite likely had each voted several times.

It's amazing what can be accomplished when one has nothing but "time" on one's hands - (and even limited internet access and mail privileges).

John

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 04:21 AM

Eliza, why do you think people who totally disregard the rights of their fellow citizens and feel free to ignore the laws of the land should have the right to vote ?

They chose to put themselves outside the law and consequently should not be afforded it's priveliges.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 04:27 AM

And talking of what other ' rights ' should be denied them, what other rights would you bestow on them ? the right to go about their dishonest, illegal murderous buisness without let or hinderance from decent honest society.

Methinks you have never been the victim of a crime.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Gervase
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 04:51 AM

Methinks you have had little involvement with the criminal justice system.
One of the reasons so many young people "go about their dishonest, illegal murderous buisness" is because they feel no connection with the society on which they prey. Prison is not just about punishment - if it is to work it must also be about rehabilitation, and giving people a sense that they have a stake in society is part of that process.
I can see practical difficulties in enfranchising prisoners (particularly in terms of the constituency in which their vote would count), but I support the principle.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 05:00 AM

I'm a bit ambivalent on this. I don't think that criminals who are serving a term longer than the term of a parliament should be allowed to vote but those with sentences of less than, say, 4 years should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 06:16 AM

If prison rehabilitates, why does such a large percentage of prisoners re-offend within months of release?

Are you aware of the costs involved in rehabilitating those who for the most part have no interest in the service?

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 06:49 AM

"Why should a prisoner be disenfranchised as a punishment, in addition to having his/her liberty taken away?"

Well, mainly because we vote for our representatives who draw up and create laws. To allow someone who has made a conscious decision to ignore those laws, always at the cost of a victim, to have a say in the creation of those laws is, frankly, absurd. In criminal cases the vote should be denied prisoners - they have made the decision themselves to opt out of the system of public influence on the creation of the law, and the vote is the main way we are involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 07:15 AM

Un-beknown to the populace the "European Convention on Human Rights" is tabling the following proposals.
"All prisoners sentenced to prison terms exceeding six months shall be entitled to:-
a) Conjugal visits, bygamists being allowed three in a bed.
b) Annual attendance at one of these. A football Cup Final, one Test
   Match or the Ideal Homes Exhibition.
C) To sit on a jury.
d) Select a venue for an appeal hearing from one of the following:-
   Queen Mary, Las Palmas or Val d`Isere.
e) Select the location of re-habilitation courses from one of the
   following:- The Queen Mary, Las Palmas or Val d`Isere.

   Her Majesty`s Government is struggling with what approach to adopt.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 08:27 AM

From my long experience with offenders in prison, I came to realise that the problem of criminality is far more complex than the general public perceive. I am not condoning crime, naturally, but I feel IF we are to address the detachment of these people (proportionally men under thirty) from society, which caused their criminal actions, we need to be clear about what we're doing in response to their offending. Are we merely punishing, exacting vengeance, deliberately causing suffering, counselling, rehabilitating, denying liberty, etc etc. I'm not opting personally for any one of these suggestions, but we do need to be clear about our objectives. If ALL privileges are to be removed for the duration of the custodial sentence, then franchise should be denied, as should presumably television, exercise, sport, publications, human contact and so on. Who is to select what a prisoner should undergo as part of the sentence? And what are the reasons for these deprivations? What in short is the AIM of prison and the penal system? Believe me, people offend for a great many reasons, some of which are pitiable and unavoidable, given their circumstances. Also, a large percentage of inmates have mental health issues. I have seen prisoners in Parkhurst, for example, in a dire state of mental illness. I'd be just as furious as anyone else to find my house had been burgled, or terrified to be mugged in the street. But the whole issue is not simple or easily addressed. I actually think that voting is quite low down on the list of what is needed to be considered!

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 08:46 AM

If prisoners have the right to vote ... than they should be allowed to have a elected representative in Congress / Parliament ... ones to represent them in the democratic government ... there is food for thought ... especially with the growing prisoner populations.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 08:50 AM

by "elected representatives" I mean individuals from the prison population should be allowed to run for government ... as crazy as it sounds I feel if they have the right to vote, they should have their own voice in government.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 09:09 AM

Yo, Gervase Webb,

Go back and read the Mudbox rules... Rule #1... Do not attempt to make sense....

But you are entirely correct.... Actually, we have become such a fragmented society that unless you are part of the monied class then you are most likely disenfranchised one one or more levels...

BTW, I used be the jail house teacher in the Richmond City jail...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 09:18 AM

In the US, all voting laws and procedures are determined by the various states, so there could be 50 different standards, but I think the usual rule is that convicted felons permanently lose the right to vote.

It doesn't matter to me very much whether felons vote or not. I doubt that it will make any difference in the outcome of any election.

The problem is, if you forbid felons to vote, how do you enforce that rule? Do you require every law-abiding voter to prove that he is NOT a felon before you allow him to vote? In other words, do you require him to show a state-issued picture ID card with a magnetic stripe on the back, so you can check his identity against a database of all non-felonious citizens?

If you require the card, you would be disenfranchising everyone who fails or refuses to obtain and carry the card. This would disproportionately affect the young, the poor, and the less educated. Would this not be a greater evil than allowing the occasional felon to vote?

That's the debate we've been having in the US lately. Felons are not supposed to vote, but the Republicans are claiming that too many of them vote anyway; and therefore we need tougher enforcement, which means ID cards. It's a favorite Tea-Party issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 09:20 AM

Another issue is that this right will be given to some prisoners even though there is little support among the population or in parliament.
It is being foisted on an unwilling population by unelected European judges.
It seems undemocratic.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 09:29 AM

exactly Keith

prisoners are segregated from society in a world of their own. How can they elect someone from the outside and expect to have fair representation ... in other words their vote is basically a sham vote in a democratic process. If allowed the vote they must have fair democratic representation, and that would mean having an elected representative from their own population.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 11:21 AM

I have never heard of jprisoners being able to vote. In Alaska, some people - after being freed - are able to get their voting rights restored.

In what states are people, currently imprisoned, able to vote? And how is that accomplished? Do elections officials set up voting stations in prisons?

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 11:29 AM

Keith A,
       I understand from a radio programme on this subject the other day it was accepted that the European Court of Human Rights (whatever they are) can huff and puff till they are blue in the face but there is no obligation for Her Majesty`s Government to implement their dictats. Also, regarding claims for compensation of disenfranchisement, Westminster can justly say "No, now any other business?"
It would all blow over in weeks leaving the country to get on with then real problems of today.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Brian May
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 11:41 AM

Personally I feel that withholding voting rights should be PART of the punishment.

If a criminal makes a choice to disregard the laws of society, then that society should make a choice to disregard the rights of said individual. God almighty, they are getting three meals a day, are warm, clothed and get medical attention when they need it. Not many pensioners can say that - especially this winter.

Inordinate amounts of resource are ploughed into rehabilitation of offenders, recidivism is still very high and precious little regard is paid to the victims and with the latest cuts, that's going to get worse.

Once more we have 'do-gooders' to thank for giving the dysfunctional elements more rights than we common-or-garden taxpayers.

Thanks . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: olddude
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 11:46 AM

The theory is one convicted of a felony would be willing to "sell" their vote. Well they better include most corporate fat cats in that line. Hey if someone made a mistake, paid their due, is out and in good standing ... why not .. everyone deserves a chance to join in the "fun" of US elections. There is never a harsh word issued ever in our elections and the good guy always wins ...

I have this great bridge for sale .. any takers?

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 12:03 PM

Personally I feel prisoners do not have the right to vote ... it's all in part of paying your debt to society.

but in saying this I feel if you do have the right to vote, then you also have the right to run for government seat, and partake in all processes of government representation ... all part and parcel of a true democracy.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 12:06 PM

Is there some sort of grass roots movement by the prisioners themselves asking for the right to vote? Or is this just a case of some people deciding what other people should be doing?

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 12:25 PM

Eliza appears above to argue that prisoners should be permitted to vote because so many can't help being prisoners as they have mental problems.

LEST SHE SHOULD CONTRADICT MY GLOSS ON HER ARGUMENT, HERE IS A QUOTATION FROM HER LAST POST~~~

"Who is to select what a prisoner should undergo as part of the sentence? And what are the reasons for these deprivations? What in short is the AIM of prison and the penal system? Believe me, people offend for a great many reasons, some of which are pitiable and unavoidable, given their circumstances. Also, a large percentage of inmates have mental health issues. I have seen prisoners in Parkhurst, for example, in a dire state of mental illness."

I fear the logic of this position escapes me.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 12:45 PM

I don't know where Eliza or Michael are from ... but I do know that in Canada prisoners are very well screened in regards to mental problems and those that do have mental issues are incarcerated in hospitals for the criminally insane and are released when and if they are deemed mentally fit to integrate back into society.

What are the reasons we have prisons ... to segregate individuals who have broken the laws of our country into a controlled environment for a period of time dependant on the severity of the crime they did and try to rehabilitate them so they can integrate back into our society.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 02:02 PM

One aspect of the vote--no vote--issue with prisoners that seems not to have been addressed is guys and gals in remand. They have been accused but they are not necessarily guilty of the alleged crime(s). I taught in both a remand centre and a maximum security institution. I also recall people like Donald Marshall and Willie Nepoose. They served heavy time for crimes which they didn`t do. (Fuck ups by the RCMP.) The fact that a person is doing time is a statement by the state that they have broken a or some laws. I fail to see that removing the right to vote is or ever has been a part of the punishment. At least I don`t know of a judge anywhere having said the prisoner has NOT retained the right to vote. Citizens--even citizens in jail--are still citizens. IMO

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 02:20 PM

I'm confused.

Is the controversy in the UK about whether prisoners should be allowed to vote while they are in prison?

Or is it about whether they should be allowed to vote after they are released from prison?

What's the law now, and what are they proposing to change it to?

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 02:27 PM

MtheGM, What you seem to be saying is that allowing severely mentally ill people (whether inmates of prisons or not) to vote is absurd. I quite agree. But I still maintain that those who are have the mental capability should not be disenfranchised as an additional punishment to their loss of liberty. Especially as the Government is so unclear about the aims of the Penal System. I can assure Guest no.6 that in the eight British prisons I visited, there was a very large number of mentally ill men. On Visits in Parkhurst, several prisoners were attended by a uniformed nurse carrying a medical bag in which was always kept injections to quickly calm them down if they became violent. Suicides in eg Norwich Prison when I visited there were so common that an Inquiry was set up. Self-harm is an everyday occurrence. In general, these people are not transferred to a prison for the mentally ill. Brian May, are you proposing that inmates should NOT be warm, fed, clothed etc? If so, I imagine that you would prefer their punishment to be more severe and rigorous than it is at present. What would be the advantages of this? (I ask this in all sincerity, as I have never fully decided what we should do with offenders, I find the whole problem too complex to solve.)

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 02:43 PM

999 .... in Canada our legal system states you are innocent until proven guilty ... so I guess the answer IMHO would be you lose the right to vote when you have been declared guilty in a court of law and off you go to serve your designated time and lose your right to vote until you have been released. If you are found certifiably insane well ... what the hell in Canada you can vote if you are mentally insane or are in prison (if the time of incarceration is over 2 years), so I arrest my case let them all vote ... I guess it doesn't make any difference since there are politicans, and judges who are both crooks and mentally unstable.

and yes Eliza ... I agree the whole problem is too complex to solve.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 02:50 PM

Well said, biLL.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 03:45 PM

Gervase Webb, you too seem to have the wrong idea about prison too, while a burglar is in prison he can't be going about his chosen profession of burglary, or do you think this is interfering with his human rights too much ?

Dave H