BS: Mad march in London

Subject: BS: Mad march in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:50 AM

"That is why it is the March for the Alternative – an alternative in which rich individuals and big companies have to pay all their tax, that the banks pay a Robin Hood tax and on in which we strain every sinew to create jobs and boost the sustainable economic growth that will generate the prosperity which is the only long term way to close the deficit and reduce the nation's debt."

What absolute bollocks - what typical socialist claptrap - rent a mob once again.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 08:12 AM

Why don't you just .... off?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 08:17 AM

Ah, the voice of the wise accountant again - only little people pay taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,VaTam
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 08:22 AM

Nobody's paying me to go. In fact I invested in a zimmer/transit chair just so I could go. Paying for the coach trip there and back as well.

Jeesh! I wish I knew they were paying us to exercise our right to disagree.

Damn. Why do I always find out about these things too late?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 08:27 AM

MPs expenses have just gone up, so I've heard on the radio..Radio Devon's having a phone in about it...the public are NOT happy bunnies, that's for sure...

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,VaTam_unrented mobbette
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 09:46 AM

SNIP from Sunderland Echo

Protestors from across Wearside are preparing to join hundreds of thousands of campaigners at tomorrow's TUC march in the capital.

Thousands from the North East are expected to make the journey south for the protest in central London against Government cuts.

Five 60-seater coaches and 1,200 train places have been booked by campaigners from the region eager to take part in the event, which ends with a rally in Hyde Park.

END SNIP

Did they get those seats paid for by some lefty socialist claptrapping organisation? I don't think so.

from Police Professional

SNIP

A new report published today has welcomed the close working relationship between the police and organisers of the Trades Union Congress (TUC) due to take place this weekend.

The Joint Committee on Human Rights (JCHR) published details of its report looking into policing of protests in central London in recent months, and the preparations for the forthcoming 'March for the Alternative' planned for tomorrow in protest of government public sector cuts.

The report backed the advance cooperation between the police and organisers, and the planned involvement of human rights observers in the control room on the day of the march itself. It also welcomes police initiatives to communicate better with protestors by using leaflets and Twitter.

However, despite the developments and the lessons which the Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) says it has learnt from violent student demonstrations in last November and December, concerns remain about the the tactic of containment, known as kettling, and the use of batons.

Some the key issues highlighted in the report include:

• a lack of clarity about the circumstances in which the police can resort to containment, and the apparent lack of opportunity for non-violent protesters to leave;
• the lack of specific guidance setting out the circumstances in which the use of the baton against the head might be justifiable. To meet the human rights requirement that the use of force should be proportionate, operational guidance to frontline officers needs to address this issue specifically and directly; and
• the need for a nimble system for assimilating lessons learned.

Dr Hywel Francis MP, Chair of the Committee, said: "The committee welcomes the cooperation between the Met and the organisers of the march this Saturday, especially the police's use of Twitter to communicate with protesters. But we remain concerned about kettling and the use of batons: clearer operational guidance is needed on both of these if the police are to meet their commitment to human rights successfully."

Hundreds of thousands of people are expected to join the anti-cuts march organised by at the weekend, for which around 4,500 police officers are expected to be deployed.

The MPS said that it is planning for a peaceful demonstration, but any violence and break away protestors will be dealt with robustly.

Lynne Owens, Assistant Commissioner of the MPS, added: "It is important that we appropriately set the mood for this day. The TUC are planning for a family friendly peaceful protest and we will do all we can to facilitate this.

"However, we would be naive to ignore the chatter on some public forums and of course we have to plan for separate autonomous groups who choose not to be part of the TUC protest. I must stress that strong views can never legitimise violence and, whilst we are planning for a peaceful day, we will not hesitate to respond speedily to any criminal and violent behaviour. The public would expect this.

"We are rightly scrutinised in our response to these large scale occasions and as part of our commitment to openness and accountability we have asked Liberty to act as independent observers in the pre planning of the event and on the day, both in Special Operations Room and out on the ground."

By Dilwar Hussain

END SNIP

Don't be be mixing up the spiky anarchists and generic trouble making thugs with legitimate protestors. Still I don't see anyone getting paid to do this. Quite the reverse. They are paying to take part.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:09 AM

As soon as I saw this thread, I thought "aha. Bonzo no brain is at it again."

FYI, I shall be on the march tomorrow, getting up at 4-30am to make sure I catch the train which NUT has kindly chartered to take us down to London. I am not part of any rentamob. Like the overwhelming majority of protesters, I will be there out of a conviction that what is being inflicted on the ordinary people of this country is wrong. It is immoral.

The present debt crisis wasn't caused by the previous government. Neither was it caused by greedy trade unionists holding the country to ransom. (Remember that one. It used to be thrown at every group of workers who had the temerity to put in for even the most modest of cost of living pay rises.) It was caused by greedy irresponsible fat cat bankers holding the world to ransom and very nearly plunging us into a 1930s style depression. And the bastards are still at it, and making far more money, than those supposedly greedy trade unionists ever made!!!

Tell me Bonzo. How do you manage to cock your leg against a lamp post when you've only got three to stand on? Or do you just not bother?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:11 AM

Good for all of you who are marching!!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:16 AM

Tell me Bonzo. How do you manage to cock your leg against a lamp post when you've only got three to stand on? Or do you just not bother?

With difficulty!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:31 PM

Bonzo, I am a socialist. You state your position less than eloquently. I wish you would stop that and speak nicely about socialists, but if you insist on slagging us, please do so politely.

Thank you.

If this attempt at reconciliation fails, please read Lizzie's post (second on this thread). I'll even fill in the word if you'd like.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,VaTam
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 12:42 PM

my poster

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: richd
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 01:10 PM

And this is 'my' film about the effect of benefit and other cuts in one community. I'll be there tomorrow too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0Q9o1fUftQ&feature=feedlik

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:48 PM

Whatever the police do to put down a protest or even a full blown riot they will always be criticised. I would spray these bastards on the streets tomorrow with scalding water or ink. Tomorrow night we will read about disruption and wilful destruction to property.

It is time the law took a firm grip of these troublemakers and made an example.

The government is doing everything it can, understand that Labour left the country in an appalling mess. They are doing a sterling job dealing with the work shy and benefit leeches.

Take it on the chin and stop your bloody moaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:52 PM

Another voice of reason heard from.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:57 PM

Thanks Richie. I was in two minds about going. Now I know I must. How dare you call people you don't agree with bastards?

Can you elucidate your reasons for doing so? And do the same reasons apply to the crowds in the Arab states who objected to being ruled by people with no democratic mandate for ripping off the poor? I seem to remember that those governing us weren't exactly elected to do the things they are doing to us.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 03:17 PM

I am so naive. I keep hoping people will not be insulting to each other and will concede to the right of differing opinions without calling names and dismissing the poor and disabled as a load of benefits cheats. There really aren't that many who cheat the system. Most people only subsist on benefits.

the media sensationalises a few examples where the system fails and you take it that this is the way it is through out.

If my local authority for whom I also work, decides that I am not fit (I have a disability for which I claim NO benefits) to work (early summer the council is centralising all admin staff, which means we all get to apply for fewer jobs) then I will be forced onto benefit (if there are any to be had). That does not make me a cheat or work shy!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 03:27 PM

What Penny and VT said.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 03:41 PM

richd - excellent film. thank you for sharing it here.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 03:47 PM

<1>Whatever the police do ... stop your bloody moaning.
Cor, lifted from the Daily Express letters page, and you could even imagine his lips moving!
You couldn't make it up. Except Nick's little helper always does. I do wonder if he's so vociferous when the EDL are marching...?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 03:51 PM

RichRichie, the people on that march are the same kind of people who've made you wealthy.

You wanna think on that occasionally...

What goes around, comes around..

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 04:23 PM

Has anyone watched Richd's video? link above It is really striking.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 04:45 PM

I've just watched it, Tam...it's excellent, *really* bringing home the problems..and heck, my life is exactly that at the moment...I sympathize with the people in that film so much....Well done to the girls for making it...I'm just off to put this on my FB page now..

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 04:51 PM

Richd - is a man (directed and produced the film) ...He's been on mudcat since 2002.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:09 PM

I see Anarchist groups (a collective name for students and union members) are threatening to 'release all hell' at the march of shame tomorrow.

I see that clown Ed Miliband (from Wallace and Gromit) will be attending it.

An analysis of extremist websites by the Policy Exchange think-tank shows violent groups will be attending the march. No doubt the great unwashed will be making their petrol bombs tonight between swilling cheap lager and rolling illegal substances in Rizla papers bought with state handouts no doubt.

Activists' websites show they are planning a 'huge explosion of class hatred and anger' in which radicals will: invade major retailers and banks on Oxford Street. Arrange scattered 'feeder' marches around the main demonstration to create chaos. Break through police cordons with targeted violence. Occupy Trafalgar Square for 24 hours and 'turn it into Tahrir Square' in a bid to copy the mass protests in Egypt. Release all hell' at 2.11pm when they will 'strike, occupy, take over' in multiple locations to stretch police resources. Let's hope medical services take their time treating police baton injuries.


I recall the good old days of Margaret Thatcher and Norman Tebbit. This government would do well to use them as role models. I expect the government will carry out it's promises to target benefit cheats, cut wastage in public services, encourage private pensions and health care.

Also I would like to see MI5 infiltrate the unions and groups of anti government vermin.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:11 PM

A true student of Orwell you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:21 PM

hhmmm

had my shower this morning, just like yesterday and the day before. and been sitting here chatting with my daughter on facebonk, drinking ice water and keeping swollen feet propped up.

petrol is too expensive to waste on bombs. I had beans for supper and lighter is charged.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: TheSilentOne
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:36 PM

Proud to be marching tomorrow. Peacefully. Although given the obscenity of extreme capitalism which Thatcher-Major-Blair-Brown-Cameron-Clegg have created, I have a lot of sympathy with those who think something a little more aggressive (short of violence against persons) is required.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:58 PM

'Richie Black' really understands less of the claptrap he regurgitates than Aunt Bessie's parrot does its own profanities.
One of the right's 'useful idiots'. Except there are plenty who do it better. Best just to stick with 'idiot' really.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:59 PM

Well let's hope many heads are split open by police batons of those "who think something a little more aggressive is required.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 07:23 PM

Hi Gervase, Congratulations on receiving that tankard. I must say, you are truly deserving of the award.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 08:10 PM

I will be meeting up with my Union in the morning , but will NOT get any where near the probable 'Rent A Mob' loons who , for the most part , are NOT any kind of 'Activist' with any belief in any thing but mayhem !

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 09:03 PM

When some in Libya arise against the government and the government uses violence against them, the UN intervenes to destabilise the government. Can we have some of that please?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:28 AM

So who plays the UN on Mudcat? Max?

I will be taking the shorter route designated for the disabled, today. Should I wear a helmet?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:31 AM

"...Well let's hope many heads are split open by police batons of those "who think something a little more aggressive is required..."

Seems you're the only aggressive bastard on this thread, Richie..strange for someone who apparently abhors violence....as are your wishes for those less fortunate than yourself.   

I guess you must be from 'Rent A Mob', huh?

Peace 'n' Love 'n' all that....


Thanks to all those who are going on this March today. It means a great deal to so many of us 'out here' that you're doing this. I, like so many others, wish I could be there with you, but I will be, in Spirit.   Take care of yourselves out there though..xx

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:34 AM

Richard - They seem to be doing a pretty good job of destabilising themselves , especially when the deputy PM does not even know what they are doing with things like the Winter Fuel allowance

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:36 AM

Perhaps Richie should bear in mind Cameron's words about governments which use violence against their people. Was it "unacceptable" he said, or some other synonym for it?

I am told that my grandfather, a railway guard, had in his locker for some time after the General Strike, a policeman's truncheon. He had somehow come by it during demonstrations in the centre of Brighton, where the strikers were attacked by the Southdown Hunt, who would obviously agree with Richie, and also by police. That was one police baton prevented from cracking open heads.

Richie, what makes you think that the function of the police includes causing brain damage to the people they are sworn to protect? Or death, as to Blair Peach and Ian Tomlinson?

For goodness sake, if you have good reason for opposing those who find themselves with no way to make their voices heard than marching through London, do tell us what they are. If it's simply that we are the untermensch, do say so.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:36 AM

I'm actually very pleased that Richie and Bonzo post here in the way that they do. Their language and attitudes - devoid, it seems, of any logic, reason, facts, figures, statistics and real knowledge - paint a very vivid picture of smug, intellectually impoverished people. Sadly, also people without any wider view of society, and a real lack of historical perspective. Note: my comments are apolitical - such shallowness is equally pathetic whether it comes from the left or the right of the political spectrum.

It's very interesting to see the way that political mantras go in through their ears and eyes, emerging at the mouth - obviously the shortest difference between two points - unscathed by any encounter with a brain cell. The impression given is of people unable to take a wider and more caring view of society as a whole other than their own personal comfort and well-being.

So you two - if you want to make an impact on a discussion and carry a point, why not do (as many of our articulate US and UK 'Catters do): (a) present solid evidence backed up by accurate facts (b) argue in a civilised and restrained manner (c) debate in the old sense of the word (d) listen (e) have some sympathy for another's point of view being held, even though you absolutely disagree with it.

Your previous posts make you sound like a couple of ignorant and very unpleasant bully-boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 06:07 AM

Labour voters and the communist union leadership march for the sake of marching. It is laughable. The reality is, either go bust or reign in our spending.

These so called protesters are third rate individuals trying to turn this country into a third world state. Go and do some community service for the day if you have f. all else to do.

Has anyone any idea if Gordon Brown the chief Architect of our country's demise be joining the demonstration?, NO I thought not! Hang you heads in shame you Liebourites, since it is ye that have contributed so much to our present situation and you dare to protest at your own incompetence.

Miliband turning up and addressing these goons is the best thing that could ever happen. It will show what a load of idiots they really are. The police have a duty to quell violence whether against other people or property. I hope the police have learned their lesson from the student riots earlier this year and are prepared to move in swiftly and forcefully cracking heads if this rabble gathering turns into an pitched battle. Unleash an army of police dogs and let them deal with the crowd!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 06:20 AM

Richie, If you don't want destruction to property, I suggest your blackshirt 'rent a mob' cronies stay at home at let the rest take part in their right to peaceful protest.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 06:21 AM

Far be it for me to deny anyone the right to protest - so long as they don't hinder my journey to the theatre this afternoon!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 06:33 AM

Dear Richie,

I would tell you to go to hell, but...it seems you are already in one, of your own making.

Meanwhile, those who care deeply about others, who are filled with a rage brought on only by compassion and disbelief that Ministers who've just raid their expenses allowance can so callously cut money to the beating heart of this country, strangling her circulation, along with her people...are about to trudge a heavenly and possibly dangerous path today, because there will be Agent Provocateurs, I've no doubt, amongst that crowd.......

Let us hope that this time, unlike the last time, in Canada, they have remembered to remove the Police Boots....and also, perhaps, their Politicians Boots, and of course, their Corporate Bastard Boots...before they go in amongst the Good and True....

Oh and Richie, Corporate Bastard Boots are made in sweat shops on the other side of the world, in the main, finished off by poor folks over here on minimum wage, doing jobs with no contracts, probably only being employed for a few hours a week, whilst having to say they'll be available for their Masters 24/7 if they should get The Call...

You'll recognise these boots because they have steel capped, razor sharp toes, which make Doc Martens look like Ballet Pumps. The Corporate Bastards love to wear these, so they can kick the Proles half to death, should the need arise...

Have a good day, Richie...
Lots of love

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 06:36 AM

Are you going to see 'The Thoughts & Times of Che Guevara'? Bonzo?

If so, don't forget your notebook....and of course, please feel free to buy the T Shirt after the show...

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 06:37 AM

Has anyone any idea if Gordon Brown the chief Architect of our country's demise be joining the demonstration?

Once again you parade your lack of historical perspective and general ignorance before us.

If you were to read about the roots and causes of the recession - and there are several recent and excellent books on the subject, written by good, apolitical economists, you'd realise that the problem starts well before Brown, Blair and even Major. The deregulation of the stock market and relaxation of rules and restraints on the city and the banking systems in both the UK and the US - brought about by Thatcher and Reagan under the influence of economists such as Sir Alan Walters had a major part in starting the recessional ball rolling.

Other countries which are also suffering many of the problems of the UK don't have Brown as their cause. You can't point to any one person as the "cause" of the UKs financial position - the global market and the exchanges, once rolling, form too large and powerful a system for any one person to have much effect on the juggernaut.

To demonise one person - whoever it might be - as the total cause of a country's financial problems is puerile.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 07:21 AM

It looks like rain.........

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 07:27 AM

Dear Lizzie,

Why is it every time I read one of your posts, I immediately conjure up this image of you yelling out "Pearl's a singer" or "Labelled with love" in some bar reflecting on your past life and bad experiences, all the fault of men no doubt ?

As for that clown WilF, having the right conversation skills is very important. If you lack this ability, your chances of being understand go WAY down.

Have a great afternoon Bonzo, I will be spending the day at Temple Island, Henley with friends. What better way to spend a quintessentially English day. It really is an idyllic.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 07:31 AM

As for that clown WilF, having the right conversation skills is very important. If you lack this ability, your chances of being understand go WAY down.

I rest my case!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: johncharles
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 07:39 AM

On a discussion board where tradition is seen as important how sad it is to see Mr Black promoting new fangled methods such as cracking skulls and sending in the dogs. Come on old chap what is wrong with flogging,hanging and transportation for lesser offences such as not being a daily mail reader.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 07:40 AM

It really is an idyllic.

An idyllic what? Or did you mean "it really is an idyll"? Or perhaps "it really is idyllic".

You really must brush up on your conversation skills...

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Silas
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 07:41 AM

Yep, Will. Just about sums the idiot up.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 07:51 AM

So sorry about that, rushing about here and emailing from Blackberry.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 09:59 AM

Bloody BBC busily obsessing over a tiny splinter group wearing balaclavas making a bit of a mess outside Top Shop. Typical bloody media. Don't take any notice of the four hundred thousand currently marching, or the crowd in Hyde Park listening to Miliband's speech, no let's obsess over a bunch of naughty kids playing paintball instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 10:46 AM

How nice, Light bulbs filled with ammonia and paint bombs being thrown in Oxford Street.These nice peace loving scum have targeted the Topshop store, smashing the windows and wrecking stock.



Keep it up chaps, this is exactly what we want to see !

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 11:09 AM

Well, while you're exulting in the tiny minority who cause such stupidity, Richie, the well-behaved majority look like this:

200,000 march

looks quite decently organised, doesn't it? That kind of behaviour is perfectly acceptable - but you'd prefer your tiny slice of the other, wouldn't you? Better propaganda, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 11:24 AM

Cut Capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 12:12 PM

Rent a mob, eh, Bozo?

I think Cecil B DeMille would have been hard pressed to rent half a million! That's 500,000 people, Bozo! I expect you and Blackie Blackshirt are laughing on the other side of your faces now - just shows how completely and utterly out of touch with real life you are.

Sorry that, due to circumstances beyond our control, we couldn't make it but to all those courageous, dedicated and, above all, ANGRY people, especially our friends and colleagues, I say well done, brilliant job and thanks from a grateful country.

To that tiny, tiny minority who think that violence is the way to get results, I say, ARSEHOLES! You are not part of this campaign and your stupidity is totally counter-productive.

Oh, by the way, Bozo and Blackshirt, did I mention that there are over HALF A MILLION people on this demo? Rent a mob! LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 12:13 PM

Oh, did I mention, Bozo, there HALF A MILLION people protesting today?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 12:25 PM

Yes that's about right Leveller, but more important than the Half Million having a good day, a scruffy oik in a balaclava is reported to have farted outside Fortnum and Mason! Send in the army I say! Nuke those dangerous communists and terrorists dancing in Hyde Park!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Silas
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 12:26 PM

Tell me again mate, how many were there?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM

"Dear Lizzie,

Why is it every time I read one of your posts, I immediately conjure up this image of you yelling out "Pearl's a singer" or "Labelled with love" in some bar reflecting on your past life and bad experiences, all the fault of men no doubt ?"

No whiskey aroma around me, although...I do wear pearls...Mine, not Pearl's pearls..

I was a wimp in my past life...barely said "Boo!" to a goose, then I had children, crappy education and dumbing down. The rest, as they say, is history....I like men, Richie, although they have to be men with steel in their spine, not in their heart...

Men like you would make my pearls turn black...and the only good thing about a Black Pearl is that Captain Jack Sparrow would be in charge...(sigh!)

You wanna label me by music, Richie...then hey, take your head out of your arse and watch this.....because THIS is me....

Leonard Cohen - 'Democracy'


Here ya go, Rich....just substitute the UK for the USA and then you'll have our own version..although Leonard makes reference to how it's spreading across the world...


‎"Democracy"

It's coming through a hole in the air,
from those nights in Tiananmen Square.
It's coming from the feel
...that this ain't exactly real,
or it's real, but it ain't exactly there.
From the wars against disorder,
from the sirens night and day,
from the fires of the homeless,
from the ashes of the gay:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.
It's coming through a crack in the wall;
on a visionary flood of alcohol;
from the staggering account
of the Sermon on the Mount
which I don't pretend to understand at all.
It's coming from the silence
on the dock of the bay,
from the brave, the bold, the battered
heart of Chevrolet:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

It's coming from the sorrow in the street,
the holy places where the races meet;
from the homicidal bitchin'
that goes down in every kitchen
to determine who will serve and who will eat.
From the wells of disappointment
where the women kneel to pray
for the grace of God in the desert here
and the desert far away:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

Sail on, sail on
O mighty Ship of State!
To the Shores of Need
Past the Reefs of Greed
Through the Squalls of Hate
Sail on, sail on, sail on, sail on.

It's coming to America first,
the cradle of the best and of the worst.
It's here they got the range
and the machinery for change
and it's here they got the spiritual thirst.
It's here the family's broken
and it's here the lonely say
that the heart has got to open
in a fundamental way:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

It's coming from the women and the men.
O baby, we'll be making love again.
We'll be going down so deep
the river's going to weep,
and the mountain's going to shout Amen!
It's coming like the tidal flood
beneath the lunar sway,
imperial, mysterious,
in amorous array:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

Sail on, sail on ...

I'm sentimental, if you know what I mean
I love the country but I can't stand the scene.
And I'm neither left or right
I'm just staying home tonight,
getting lost in that hopeless little screen.
But I'm stubborn as those garbage bags
that Time cannot decay,
I'm junk but I'm still holding up
this little wild bouquet:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A."


Be afraid, Richie....be *very* afraid,, for your selfish, greedy, arrogant world is coming to an end...

Half a million people today, next time it will be double that....and I'll be there with them on that occasion, hopefully...

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 01:13 PM

From The Guardian's website...

Some Great Photos of The March

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 01:18 PM

Joe, is there any chance the 'Mad' bit could be removed from this title? It's really insulting to all of those who've been demonstrating today, including various Mudcatters who are on that march.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 01:29 PM

Hooded anarchists throwing paint bombs, setting off flares, a bus load of pensioners visiting London subjected to a terrible ordeal of physical violence and abuse, Police targeted with missiles and light bulbs filled with ammonia, windows at The Ritz smashed, masked men carrying union placards abusing and assaulting passers by in the streets, a two year old child injured as she buggy was overturned by protesters.

Exactly what we want the rest of the world to see.


Only 500,00 turned up, 59,900,000 didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 01:50 PM

The head of Public Order for the Metropolitan Police, says he see's the criminal activity in Oxford Street as a "separate event" to the vast TUC rally, which he praised as being peaceful and well organised.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 02:01 PM

There will always be a few folk like you, Richie, who see nothing wrong in violence against others..sadly. I'm sure you'd have been jubliant had some of the peaceful protesters had..what was it you said now?..ah yes, had they had their heads cracked open with police truncheons.

Sorry mate, you lost ANY credibility when you said that...Actually, you lost it wayyyyyy before...

Seems like the half a million figure has got you all riled up and frothing, huh? ;0)


Windows smashed at The Ritz? My, how spiffingly dreadful! I'll have to phone and cancel my Sunday lunch there tomorrow...

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: BTNG
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 02:24 PM

Had I not been....working *gasp* I most certainly would have been there

*an alternative in which rich individuals and big companies have to pay all their tax*

Good god no, really? how radical. To all those rich individuals and big companies You want to live in this society, pay your bloody way like everyone else does and stop your whining..

Anyway enough of this, I must be away, local fox hunting association dinner to attend and all that, oh I say..Bonzo and Ritchie old things, are you attending too :-P

Pip Pip and all that rot!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: theleveller
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 02:36 PM

"Tell me again mate, how many were there?"

I think there were over 500,000. A couple of hundren were violent. Now what percentage of ha;f a million is a couple of hundred - maybe even Bozo coould work that out.

"There will always be a few folk like you, Richie, who see nothing wrong in violence against others..sadly. I'm sure you'd have been jubliant had some of the peaceful protesters had..what was it you said now?..ah yes, had they had their heads cracked open with police truncheons."

Exactly, Lizzie. Just shows what a sadistic thug Blackie Blackshirt is. Of course, he's also too much of a coward to ever go out and risk getting blood on his jackboots - just sits at home and drools over the sight of other people getting hurt. Totally dspicable character!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,Big Norman Voice
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 02:41 PM

All I will say is this. The cost of this will come out of YOUR pockets. Increased insurance premiums, along with reduced money for social projects, due to tax payers money being spent unneccessarily on police overtime, and all the other things the tax/ratepayer picks up the tab for. Street cleaning etc etc.
There is no such thing as 'Government money, it's our money, and it is being wasted on exhibitionists, and anarchists!"

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 02:41 PM

'Blackie Blackshirt' is just the best, Levels... x :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 02:52 PM

No, Norm....it's being wasted on things like..er..WAR..and whilst they're busy spending zillions on wars that shouldn't even have started, or should I call them 'invasions'...the old, the frail, the sick and the poor are being shafted faster than you can say "You're cutting HOW MANY BUSES back in Torbay????"

Get out of Libya, get out of Afghanistan, make the Bankers pay it all back, lower MPs expenses...GET REAL, because you know what? The People are getting REAL....and we are REALLY PISSED OFF with the arrogance, the corruption and the stuffynosedsnoots who've never had to work for their living in their lives, now running this country...Labour are as much to blame, they've all behaved and are behaving like a bunch of absolute shits, blaming each other..

The People have finally found their voice, just like the rest of The People around the planet and that voice is not going to return to a whisper ever again...

I always knew this Recession would be Life Changing, and we're now starting to see that Change in many ways..good and bad...

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: BTNG
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 02:57 PM

I'm listening to Renaissance performing Mother Russia and led to ponder on what the great Russian writer Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn would have thought of the baseless rantings of Brothers Bonzo and Ritchie, after all he too was a victim of the lies of government wasn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 03:18 PM

Do any of you recall the marches and rioting to stop the Blair and Brown mindless spending years, no, nor do I, the left wing lost the election and cannot accept the result, well tough shit we are in office, get used to it.

Labour were simply irresponsible. They wrecked the country, spending trillions they didn't have. Now they want to wreck efforts to bring the debt down. Labour is a joke, Millepede is the son of radical Marxist parents, so what would you expect.


Well here in Britain we have the ballot box, we have our chance every 5 years or so. That's life living in a democracy not the oppressive Communist or Fascist States those protesting today would like.


Union leaders are just paid agitators. Those goons who attended this gathering today are in fact just a tiny minority of mis-informed mindless sheep and proved to be destructive thugs by their actions. As I said, only 500,00 turned up, 59,900,000 didn't.

I can assure you, no one from Mottram St Andrew attended it, we have far too much dignity and respect for our government and the fine job they are doing.

Maybe the millions of hard working law abiding citizens of this great country should take to the streets, against the benefit scroungers and over paid public sector staff ?


So many here seem to go on about cuts? What cuts? Public spending will still increase every year over the course of this parliament. By 2014/15, our national debt will have increased by £303 billion. In 2014 we will still be spending £43 billion more on public services than we will do in 2011. There will be more money spent on Healthcare, Welfare, Defence and Pensions in 2014 than there was this year.

It is quite frankly disingenuous of "Labelled with love Lizzie" to portray the slight spending reductions in this manner. I am quite frankly fed up with her sort claiming these "cuts" will damage the economy. It is complete rubbish.

Let's make one thing clear here - these minor reductions in spending don't go nearly far enough, benefits and public services need sliced at least another 30%.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: BTNG
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 03:24 PM

"not the oppressive Communist or Fascist States those protesting today would like."

Ritchie boy , you need to get a life and get you nose out of your Rupert Bear books and the Daily Torygraph
I heard exactly the same nonsense you spout, 40 some odd years ago, it was pointless then and it's pointless now, God don't you of the right ever get new script writers!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: TheSilentOne
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 03:35 PM

A wonderful day, marching peacefully with hundreds of thousands of others, probably 400,000. Marching for justice in a society which is being polarised as the richest in the land get richer and pay little or no tax, encouraged by successive governments, while the bottom 10% carry the highest percentage tax burden. If we were "all in this together" there wouldn't be a problem. But we're not. The very people who created the banking crisis are still being obscenely rewarded.

The violent protesters were not even associated with the march, and I don't support the violence those hundred or two employed. But UK Uncut's non-violent occupations of premises, that's fine by me.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 03:55 PM

"non-violent occupations of premises" Please elaborate, which premises were peacefully occupied today ?

Was that The Ritz hotel, Topshop, HSBC or the Royal Bank of Scotland branch ?
All suffered criminal damage.

As for Fortnum & Mason, thousands of pounds of stock was stolen as thugs intimidated ordinary people in there shopping.

Is such an occupation acceptable ? What about the rights of shoppers in this store ?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 03:55 PM

Sorry, I changed the above CUT CAPITALISM talk to this link, so I could tweet it to @protest and @London, where quite a few are doing the same, if anyone is interested.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:11 PM

I said, only 500,00 turned up, 59,900,000 didn't.

I can assure you, no one from Mottram St Andrew attended
From wikipedia:" According to the 2001 census, the village has a population of 629 people"

Well, in proportion you would only expect 6 or so, and because of the distance you would expect even fewer. But do you really know all 600ish that well to spot a few away for the day?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:14 PM

Every inch of me hurts, but it is worth it. I have an excruciatingly painful disability for which I claim no benefits. I don't even have a blue badge.

But I walked the entire shortened route, for those people who could not be there. Every step like walking on sharp shingle in my sock feet. My hips seizing up, my hands and wrists screaming from trying to take the weight off my feet by leaning on the walker. But I did it.

Throat is quite sore too from hollering, cheering, booing, and coughing. It was inspiring day and I saw no violence, myself. The only non self-inflicted injury was the bump of a push chair into my poor arthritic heel, when we first arrived at Canning town tube station. Not a good way to start a march.

A very nice and friendly policeman asked me about my sign and it was obvious he whole heartedly agreed that the banks and uber rich should pay a proportionately fair tax.

There were 3 police reps on our coach, going to march against the cuts.

As we left Hyde park (about 4pm) and walked back up to Green Park tube crowds of demonstrators were still pouring in.

When we got back, the Unison organiser on our coach, asked me and fellow demonstrator from Musician's Union (who happens also to be a colleague) if we would be interested in performing at a concert the local TUC is planning.

I declined. I am a sing a round kind of girl.

Wonderful surprise to see Show of Hands.

Sitting here with my feet propped up on ice pack, watching the news, wishing the few twiddle dick trouble makers had stayed at home to wank off, because they are stealing the positive news away from the real demonstration.

Love to all. Even the ones who wanted me to get my head stove in.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:26 PM

Peaceful masses walking together. A few not so at Fortnum's, which I saw, and regretted.

I'm going to have to practice walking backwards to Christmas, if I'm to live up to the description of goon. That is deeply insulting to huge numbers of your fellow citizens. And citizens much concerned not with their own gain, but the losses to be sustained by the recipients of services, the old needing care, the injured needing physiotherapy, the children needing Gove's 50 books with neither money to buy them nor library to borrow them from... the list goes on. You mention community service - these are the people who provide it day in and day out, without consideration for the politics or deserts of the recipients, and are paid peanuts for the privilege.

BTW, I think that PG Wodehouse's 30's group led by Spode would be more appropriate. Were they Black Shorts or Brown Shorts - I can't quite remember?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:34 PM

VT, You clearly suffer from a painful condition. Genuine people such as yourself deserve the assistance of an Incapacity/Disability living allowance.

Just spoke to my nephew who is a doctor, he advised that you talk to your doctor about it or an independent benefits adviser, Citizens Advice will recommend one. You can in fact obtain the necessary paperwork from your surgery and make the application yourself, best you do it with the help of the independent adviser I imagine.

The system was put in place to help people such as yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:47 PM

Penny Red,

Maybe you should consider taking out a private health plan and make provisions for your retirement like the rest of us did by taking out a generous private pension.

This is a logical sensible approach to life, your leftie friends don't need to know about it, you can still voice your concerns about the ducks going barefoot.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:49 PM

They don't actually take much notice of what GPs say when they are using hired incompetents to take benefits away from people with disabilities.

Some forty per cent of those who appeal against those kinds of decisions are successful - but nothing happens to the people who made the decisions that are overturned.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:53 PM

To enlarge, I'd driven to a friend's house, then walked to catch a bus to The Elephant, and walked again to join the march at Trafalgar
Square. We walked on to Hyde Park, and listened to several speeches. During the march there were a few fireworks let off a short way behind, but no-one, including the police, took much notice. A group of black clad balaclava'd people were about at the time, with anarchist flags, being herded to keep together, and it was noticable that other marchers were keeping a gap between them and the main group.
When we left the park, through Mayfair, it was about 3.30, and we found ourselves walking back alongside those still going peacefully towards the park along Piccadilly. As we approached Fortnum's we watched climbers putting up a banner on lamposts, there was a bang, and smoke, and shouting, and the march stopped. The side road by Fortnum's was blocked, there were three police vans with only the drivers in, surrounded and climbed on, and we went back towards the Ritz. As we went down the next side street, we saw a cohort of riot police set off along Jermyn Street towards Fortnums. Along Jermyn Street there was a solitary protestor pulling faces at people in Fortnum's cafe. The police had formed a line across the road. Back on Piccadilly we could see that the tail end of the peaceful march, behind the violent lot, were stationary.
There were a few musicians in Trafalgar Square, and a short march down past St Martins in the Fields.

Did the people of that idyllic hamlet go on the Countryside march? With buses laid on by the squirearchy? Don't go.. lose your job? Did they have road blocks today?

And isn't there something odd about someone who finds Henley so attractive not being on the Tideway today?
Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:58 PM

I've got a really odd feeling that Richie is trying to be funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:02 PM

Richie

You don't seem to understand. Much as I hurt, I don't want benefits. I want to work. I need the the distraction of work as much as the independence.

Why would I choose to use up resources that many more deserving should have, as long as there is an alternative for me?

The problem is this government is on the verge of taking my independence. They cut money to my local authority who is my employer. My employer is reducing staff. If I lose my job because of this, they will be forcing me onto benefits.

Is it fair that bankers are still getting bonuses for failing, that rich corporations are protected from paying tax and encouraged to send money out of the country, instead of investing it here into industry that will put people in work?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:07 PM

Thank you, Tam and Penny. Big hug and kiss to you both. (x) (x)

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:08 PM

And V-Tam, I really admire you doing what you did with your legs. Mine are complaining no end, and they are theoretically healthy.

Richie, what part of people are mostly concerned about the services available to others don't you understand...? I wasn't there to protect myself. You grew up under the National Health. You've got enough not to need it - lucky old you. You earn enough to buy a generous pension - try doing it on peanuts. Logic needs funds to work.

Oops, forgot, those with right wing views tend to have enlarged amygdalas, leading to more primitive emotional reactions, while leftwingers tend to have enlarged anterior cingulate cortices, related to empathy.

I taught a child with Asperger's Syndrome, who was aware of the necessity of empathy, and went out of his way to consider the feelings and needs of others. At eight years old. It can be done. Work at it. Your righty friends need not know...unless you value honesty.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:09 PM

BTW... For the record if any one is about to sneer, my public sector gold plated pension would only be about £2000 a year, if I am lucky, which is why I will never be able to afford to retire.

So, I will greet you at ASDA from my wheelchair, if they will have me.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:09 PM

We only saw nice friendly middle class looking people as we crossed Haymarket towards the Comedy Theatre (rather apt!!) through the thick of the march, only pleased to let us through. Seemed to be nothing more than a nice afternoon walk through London.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:15 PM

As well as applauding those who attended the rally, I think it's also worth recognising that the Police today looked like they did a really good job. No police violence at all as far as I could tell, despite provocation from those minority elements unrelated to the TUC rally who went looking to start a fight.

TUC had been in close dialogue with the Met over the organising of this event, and it's precisely that kind of co-operation which is needed to ensure - unlike the Thatcher years - that the police are there with the people, on the right side of the fence.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:16 PM

Thanks Bonzo - that was what was to be seen most of the way, most of the time. But even the more - what is the word here - grungy? looking marchers were friendly and peacable.

The only problem I had was a hoodie in a fourwheeled powered scooter who ran over my heel while I was listening to a speech. And I was the one who apologised!

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:20 PM

It's always the scum who hit the headlines, clearly there were a number of them causing damage in Piccadily, no more than 50 minutes walk from where we were this afternoon.

A great win by Oxford in the Boat Race!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:39 PM

Did anybody see the busker in Piccadily underground station around 5:20pm - he was very good!!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 06:02 PM

Richie,

You are one dumbass sonamabitch. You may despise us, but we will win. You have a class war in your head, but in search of the comfort you now own you discovered the rest of us. We don't know what it's like to be rich, but we do know that when you fall from grace, you will be welcome amongst us.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Gervase
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 06:15 PM

FFS sake, Richie, you're a crap BNP sock puppet, aren't you? You cant even write consistently and coherently, and just regurgitate the bilge that Griffin sends you in the wrong order! Take the blinkers off, take your head out of the Daily Express and try thinking. Your head might hurt a bit, but you never know...
And do ditch the far-right crap - it's so unattractive in a man, believe me!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: TheSilentOne
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 06:19 PM

According to BBC News at 9.50pm, no damage was done inside Fortnum and Mason's. A non-violent occupation of about 2 hours, inflicting no damage, brought to a negotiated conclusion with the protesters agreeing to be arrested without resistance. That's textbook non-violent direct action. I admire their courage.

What the idiot group OUTSIDE were doing, with paint, fireworks, and whatever, was unjustified and counter-productive.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 06:26 PM

goodnight all, gonna take a codydrmol now and go to bed

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 06:44 PM

I haven't watched the news and don't want to.
It stops you getting wound up.

The TV makes everything seem worse than it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 06:45 PM

250,000!!   and they all went home quietly and felt so smug for being good boys and girls.....even the police spoke warmly of you for making their day so nicey nicey.

What did you expect to achieve?.....Do you think the government give a flying fuck about well behaved marchers......"Oh they've been so good....I think we should just give them all there jobs back ....and they're pensions ....and the money we took from them to bail out our lovely system!!!".......That will be fuckin right, see and understand that you, your jobs, the NHS,the poor and under priviliged are as nothing compared to the wellbeing of the capitalist system.

We are being conned and robbed, and holing up a 500mm square of cardboard is going to make no difference at all.
If you believe that peaceful demos achieve anything, you need your heads felt.....NOBODY IS READING YOUR PRETTY SIGN.

Only blood will change things, the smug schoolboy Cameron, will take our lives as easily as he incinerates the contents of Col Gadaffi's tanks.....tanks which contain young men not unlike your sons or mine.

Our greed and selfishness was a prime factor in the financial meltdown, we are now reaping the harvest of that selfishness.

Time to grow up or shut up........especially those who condemn the poor desperate militants.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 03:54 AM

ake, there will be no need for violence. This march is just the start, the 'warming up' if you like to call it that. It's the snowball starting to roll down the mountain....

It will create an avalanche, rest assured.

The 'greed and selfishness' of which you speak played some part in all of this, but please remember that two generations have now been 'edukated' to be nothing more than consumers. They know no better because they have been encouraged, or even brain-washed, into shallow thinking and thoughts that merely encompass material items, the next 'must have'....

Those who were on that march think differently...and it's their anger, ours too, all who couldn't attend, which is now starting to change the way people think, the way the look at things...that, coupled with their way of life starting to change so dramatically.

This isn't just a UK situation though, it's a World Situation. It will be the biggest upheaval, the biggest meltdown, the biggest re-distribution of wealth, of thought, of spirituality, that this planet has ever seen. The ride is going to be tough, tougher than most people even want to think about....

This isn't just a worldwide recession, it's a worldwide financial and spiritual tsunami, which will leave havoc in its wake, sadly. But from the damage of these recessional waves will hopefully rise The Phoenix of Mankind.

I think most people around the world could tolerate going back to a much more basic way of life, a far more streamlined way of life, but only if we are all in it together, in an equal way, in equal shares...and it is the horrendous inequality that is so apparent and transparent at the moment, that will cause those devastating waves to swishswash around in a whirlpool of torment, until eventually the storm begins to subside.

Sadly, there will be violence, but please, don't add to it by asking for it. Don't ache to see it. Ache to see the solution to this, to see the answer finally laid before us all...

Ghandi achieved much with his peaceful demonstrations, as did all of those who took over their city centres during the Poll Tax situation. These marches need to become local, in every city centre, in every town, so that politicians, councillors, bankers, all who have been less than honest, can see that no longer do they have a dumbed down population that can ride roughshod over, but they have an intelligent, enlightend and very angry mass of people who are no longer prepared to be treated like brainless proles.....

I can understand anyone 'losing it'...especially if they have lost everything, their job, their home, the family..Some people are having to endure horrendous times at the moment, with no hope of help on the horizon. We all have to be that help, we all have to start reaching out to each other, as people used to do so long ago, before the madness of the present world overtook and over-ran everything...

Change is coming...

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 04:15 AM

no problem with the peaceful civil disobedience and tactics of obstruction designed to raise awareness of tax dodging companies, but attacking the police is damaging to the cause. I scanned some comment pages, including the sun, and was pleased by the support shown for those attending the tuc rally. Even sun readers are able to distinguish between the large peoples movement and the minority militants. The propaganda war is the one that matters right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Penny S.
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 04:41 AM

Incidentally, it was clear that the "anarchists" were anything but. They were being controlled both by someone with the group, and someone else issuing orders to them. They were not thinking for themselves.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 04:55 AM

People of such low intelligence usually cannot think for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 04:55 AM

penny, no doubt. Anarchist naughtiness was initiated 'cue camera action' right on time to ruin milibands speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 04:57 AM

It was a pleasure to say hello to a few of the marchers and wish them well, as they did us. I wonder where all the usual traffic in Haymarket was directed??

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 05:21 AM

Probably St,James or Warwick Street.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 05:34 AM

St James was closed too, as that is where the shortened march (for disabled) began. We were gently fed into main march as it passed by.

Only one more word from me at the mo



ouch

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 05:48 AM

As far as I can see this march was just another futile exercise, by the useless and morally bankrupt British Left, in 'competitive piety' (University Lecturer: "I care more about the poor than you do!"; Retired School Teacher: "No! I care more!!").

Remember that the Labour Party had 13 years in which to build a progressive society - they failed, miserably! They made a few cosmetic changes but, behind closed doors, they sucked up to Big Business and the Banks. And STILL the tribal (largely middle class) rank-and-file of the party, who did nothing to stop the rot, slavishly support them!

It was nauseating to watch Eddie Millipede addressing the adoring crowds whilst he knew damn well that if his useless party was in power they would be making similar cuts and still sliming up to Big Business and the Banks!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 06:18 AM

Excellent post Shimrod.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,Mike Rogers
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 06:19 AM

Oh dear. I see that a few of Thatcher's Children have escaped from the asylum again.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 06:27 AM

I gather there was some good music in Hyde Park.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 06:38 AM

For the record again, (Why can't I shut up? Because I hurt too much to do the ironing so I am sitting and wasting time here.) many labourites feel betrayed by Blair Brown and co. And at the demo, when Milliband was introduced. He was greeted with more hisses and boos than cheers.

Just so you know.

And Lizzie, I don't think the thread title should be changed. We were mad as in angry. That is why we were there.



WARNING - If I succumb to taking a diazepam, you may find me alternating between rant and tears here.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 06:38 AM

My post should not be read as support for the Tories, Richie. As far as I am concerned they are, and always have been, an evil bunch of sociopaths. Trouble is they have not had any real opposition for years.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 06:39 AM

Yes Bonzo, it was called hot air.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 06:40 AM

Show of Hands performed. I had made it to the little pit (in front of stage) where they put the wheel chairs by that time, so I was a bit chuffed by that.

We got some video I might put up on youtube.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Max Johnson
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:10 AM

"well tough shit we are in office, get used to it. "

Don't get too used to it Richie, because you're soon going to be bouncing down the road in a barrel.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:14 AM

Great headlines and photographs in the quality press this morning. Only 500,00 turned up, 59,900,000 didn't !

So did this little "jolly" change government policies ? I think not.

It was known this was going to happen, & the TUC scum helped to create the violence we are seeing in London yesterday. As labour have admitted they would have made very similar cuts, & that they had no alternative suggestions or policies on this issue, the title of the protest had be changed to ensure Milliband could support it without looking too much of an opportunistic hypocrite.

I await with interest to hear Len McCluskey's condemnation of the violence that erupted, but daresay he'll make excuses & attempt to pin the blame on the Police. Wonder how many of those things took part in this violent event yesterday actually work & pay taxes?


Daily Mail coverage is excellent.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:28 AM

Charlie Veitch - The Love Police - At The March

...and tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow...

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:34 AM

Daily Mail coverage is excellent.

How do you know - you weren't there.

I'll repeat part of a post I made earlier, as the quote from you above demonstrates it excellently:


It's very interesting to see the way that political mantras go in through their ears and eyes, emerging at the mouth - obviously the shortest difference between two points - unscathed by any encounter with a brain cell.

QED

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:39 AM

I got back to Merseyside last night shattered, voiceless and over the moon at the way the day had gone. Yes, I'm bloody angry at the way the media homed in on the tiny handful of nutters, who think that trashing a HSBC bank is a cool way to solve the banking crisis.

But the vast majority of protesters were just that; peaceful protesters, intent on firing a salvo across the government's bows, to say we're not going to sit back and be robbed soft to pay for someone else's greed.

FTR. I was with the Liverpool Socialist Singers, and we ended up singing to the march, at Trafalgar Square, rather than going on it. The original intention had been to join the end of the demo and continue with them to Hyde Park. But the thing was so huge, and took so long to go past, that by the time it had done so, we had to get back to Euston for the train.

In any event, we sang for four solid hours (in addition to the singing which the NUT had asked us to do on the train), so I had an unparalleled opportunity to see the entire march. There was a lot of good nature, some very entertaining placards, and absolutely no trouble from anyone, except for the nutters, who were already occupying Trafalgar Square at the back of us.

We got a terrific response from the marchers, and it was heartening to see how many of them were joining in, and how many knew the words! But most heartening of all were the old blokes, and blokesses, who kept coming out of the crowd to join in the singing, the like of which most of them hadn't heard since the days of Aldermaston.

If anyone thinks that was a waste of time, think again. The march was a terrific morale booster; it told people who are suffering under the cuts that they don't have to suffer in silence; and it gave Cameron just a hint of the head of steam which is building up against the cuts, and which will eventually break the back of his rotten coalition and all that it stands for.

"The workers united will never be defeated."

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:55 AM

"Milliband could support it without looking too much of an opportunistic hypocrite."

I wanted to hear what he had to say. Miliband was advised against participating. I thought his speaking at this event was an interesting decision, being as it was of course, a TUC organised rally it implies to me something about his personal political alliances. If this is a taster of dumping the anti-Union New-Labour and return to a proper socialist Labour party, I will be interested to know more. The jury is still out, but I consider diversionary and divisive tactics by militants unhelpful to the greater peoples movement. I want to see what the TUC are working to help create. And that is a united opposition instead a bunch of impotent bickering factions.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:57 AM

"The workers united will never be defeated."

Nor will they ever win. Long live the coalition.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:59 AM

Great images evoked there Fred, thanks for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 08:07 AM

I think, Bozo, that yesterday was the Rising of the Unions at long, long last...They've been quiet for way too long.

The Coalition is as polluting as coal itself, casting a cloud of black smog across The People.

Time to ban it, I think...or at least to put it out for a very, very long time...

The trouble is, WHO is worthy to run this country? WHERE are the Good Men & True, with fire in the bellies and steel in their spines? Where are the honest ones filled with intergrity and a desire to do the best for everyone, to bring equality to this nation, to the world...?

I guess, until they arrive Tracey will at least keep the eyes and ears awake...

"..Yes, finally the tables are starting to turn..."
Talking About a Revolution - Tracey Chapman



Tam, I'd heard SoH were due to be there...just found a clip of AIG on Youtube, but heck, they were a bit rough, so I'm not going to put that on my page...doesn't do them any favours...I'll put the original version up instead, the studio one..

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: TheSilentOne
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 08:37 AM

"That is why it is the March for the Alternative – an alternative in which rich individuals and big companies have to pay all their tax, that the banks pay a Robin Hood tax and on in which we strain every sinew to create jobs and boost the sustainable economic growth that will generate the prosperity which is the only long term way to close the deficit and reduce the nation's debt."

Bonzo quoted the above and denigrated it to start off this thread. I have yet to see any argument justifying the tax breaks for multi-millionaires, billionaires, and the large corporations anywhere in this thread. And unless and until this injustice is redressed, more and more people (even Tory voters I have talked to) agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 08:40 AM

Just read this on Guardian comments

"Apparently £25,000 worth of damage was caused in Fortnum & Mason.

Someone knocked over a jar of olives."

Beautiful!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 08:51 AM

It is called criminal damage VT. Do you not agree ?

I would suggest all of you read the brilliantly lucid and illuminating pamphlet written by the economist Tim Morgan before most you talk shite here.


Coalition cuts: Public spending at the end of the cuts in 2014/15 will be a mere 3 per cent lower at £647bn.


Treasury's figures show, in 2015 spending in real terms on welfare will be  34 per cent higher than it was in 1999-2000. On the NHS it will have gone up 92 per cent, on education 38 per cent, on defence 36 per cent and on pensions  38 per cent. Overall public expenditure will be 48 per cent higher in real terms in 2015 than it was in the year 2000.

So any word on the next "jolly" to London ? What a waste of time and police resources.

The bill for criminal damage will be paid by the taxpayer, then again, why would that worry those in attendance.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Silas
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 08:53 AM

Knocking over a jar of olives is not criminal damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: TheSilentOne
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 09:04 AM

..and you still fail to address the unfairness issue, Richie. Or should I assume that in your world unfairness cannot be an issue?

And are you really of the opinion that most of those 400,000 are not taxpayers? If so it just shows your lack of grasp of what is going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 09:09 AM

Great day. Amazing turnout, from such a huge cross-section of society: old, young, black, white, people of different social backgrounds...it really felt like an expression of unity. Lots of families with young children. We arrived at Hyde Park at around 2pm, and when we left at 4:30, the march was not only still arriving, Picadilly was still heaving with people making their way to the park.

Seeing the action outside Fortnum's on the way back was quite scary. It was completely out of character with the rest of the day, and was carried out by a small handful of people, compared to the overwhelmingly peaceful and quite joyful main body of the march. But one thing I found interesting: what's with those half-balaclavas that the riot police wear over the bottoms of their faces? It can't be protective, because their noses weren't covered. Like the scarves being used by the Anarchists, it seems to be about hiding identity. So what's that all about then?

Nice to see you Tam, albeit briefly. We ran into a few people we knew, completely be chance.

The TUC was calling for a general strike as the next action. I hope it happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,ruth archer astray
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 09:10 AM

last post was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 09:22 AM

As myself: Joan Crump, who uses the nickname Ruth Archer on Mudcat. Is there a problem with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,ruth/joan astray
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 09:24 AM

oops - last post was a response to a troll, which has now disappeared.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 09:29 AM

@ Ruth
I don't understand how you recognised me, since we never met in real life and I no longer look much like the pics I have up on facebook.

Was it my wonderful Robin Hood Tax placard? :~)


@
Richie - come on, even you can see the humour in a £25000 jar of olives?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 09:31 AM

I've seen you at Sidmouth. Though admittedly I was utterly shocked to see a face I recognised in the throng!

Poster identified as Ruth Archer.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 09:34 AM

On the NHS it will have gone up 92% [by 2015, from 1999-2000].

If you read around the subject properly, instead of just quoting one set of figures, you'll see that NHS spending (in cash terms) increased from £33.5 billion in 1997/8 to £76.4 billion in 2005/6 and reached £96.4 billion for the financial year 2008/9 [data from The Kings Fund*]. An increase, in cash terms, of nearly 300% - from the Labour Government, whose manifesto was to bring the UK more closely to the health care standards of other EU countries. UK health care expenditure as a proportion of national income rose from 6% to 9% in that period.

So when you start quoting general data about rises in expenditure between two points - as propaganda - you have to factor in the expenditure growth graph. There may well be a 92% rise in NHS expenditure from 2000 to 2015 - but a large part of that will have been created by the previous government. Unless you quote a predicted NHS expenditure for 2015, then a blanket statement of "92%" is - politically - meaningless.

*The Kings Fund is an independent charity whose remit is to explore how the health system can be improved.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 09:42 AM

One other point - oh statistically naive one:

A phrase such as "will have gone up by 92%" is also meaningless unless you know the effective base line from which that increase is measured. In other words - "gone up from what?"

You can say, with some truth, that "this basket of apples has gone up by 500%!" What - from 1 apple to 5...? If the initial base line from which the increase is measured was low - the vaunted increase may not mean that much.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 09:46 AM

Oh - and by the way - my tuition fee for guitar pupils is normally £25 per hour. Seeing that you're one of the better-off and secure Mudcat correspondents, and that statistics is probably a slightly harder discipline, I can do this lesson for, say, £40.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 09:47 AM

"It is called criminal damage VT. Do you not agree ?"

No, I don't agree.

Criminal damage is what the Corporate Bankers & Bastards have not only done, but been allowed to get away with, whilst being also allowed to pay themselves billions in bonuses.

It is Hood Robin politics, robbing the poor to pay the rich...

However, Tam, henceforth known as 'The Maid Marian' and her gallant 'Robin Hood of the Poster' are out to zap Hood Robin once and for all...

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 10:04 AM

"The TUC was calling for a general strike as the next action. I hope it happens."

I believe one of the aims of this event was to test the water of public opinion. And in view of the response, how the movement might then proceed?

So, what's the political 'post mortem' analysis of the event, for posters here?

Any opinions on how further action - including a general strike - might be received by the public at large?
Would it be a Miners style sacrificial slaughter, or will the workers win out?

I don't have any opinion yet - I'm buoyed by the (increasingly) touted number of 500'000 attendees, but see mixed reactions in the press - which despite the highly disproportionate attention given to naughty boys with paint balls by the media, has gladly almost universally been positive about the conduct to be seen among participants in the main event.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 10:14 AM

Pity the sun didn't shine yesterday!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 10:20 AM

It did, Bonzo...through half a million shining eyes. They sent out a light far stronger, and rays that will reach further, than our Sun could ever manage...

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: TheSilentOne
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 10:29 AM

My understanding is that the Thatcherite anti-union legislation makes it almost impossible to legally call a General Strike. Each participating union or section would have to call a dispute with the relevant employer and time action for the same day(s). And some employers would be bound to find sufficient irregularity (getting a few members' addresses wrong or their ballots going astray might be sufficient) to give them grounds to have some of those ballots nullified in the courts. Then if that union persisted in calling the action the whole of their assets are at risk of sequestration.

Of course, grass roots members can withdraw their labour at any time, but if some of the bigger unions were to be emasculated as above I can't see it happening, and individuals would not necessarily have protection as strikers. But maybe someone more au fait with employment law can give a more accurate response?

However much I would LOVE to see a General Strike, I don't see it gathering enough momentum. But 300, 400 or 500 thousand yesterday is a massive start to a campaign that we CAN keep going. As Lizzie said, we did beat the poll tax. If enough people see something as grossly unfair, and actually DO something about it, it just builds momentum until in the end a government (even one as doctrinaire as Thatcher's and now Cameron's) eventually sees the writing on the wall and capitulates.

This government is in some ways more dangerous than Thatcher's because they have kept their ideology low profile, but now we have seen the evidence of their extremism I think we could be on the way to winning.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 10:38 AM

What if the Workers called a General Strike though? They couldn't touch the Unions if they didn't utter a word, surely?

If the People called their own Strike it would be great!

And HOW do you get Thatcher's anti-union legislation turned around? There must be a way.

I guess The People have to do that too...remain on strike, or cause complete chaos, until they remove that piece of legislation....It's preposterous that she did this in the first place.

Why didn't Labour repeal it?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Silas
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 10:41 AM

Because of the dreadful behaviour of the unions in the mid/late seventies.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 11:29 AM

But...Labour were always behind the Unions..weren't they? Oh, I forgot, New Labour was the Old Tories..

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 11:38 AM

As demonstrtions go this one lacked imagination and talent.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 11:45 AM

Donuel

That is pretty harsh coming from someone who lives in the US. I suspect the coverage you have been exposed to is limited and perhaps you shouldn't weigh into the conversation.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 11:48 AM

Donuel: an honest question.
In what ways would you have liked to see this demonstration displaying 'sufficient imagination and talent'?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 11:59 AM

Thatcher pushed through enough anti-union legislation to sink an Argentinian battleship; and not because of "dreadful behaviour of the unions", but because she believed in a Darwinian world where the devil takes the hindmost. IE., the free market. The proposition she followed basically argued that supply and demand are the only regulators which should be exerted on a country's economic activity if it is to flourish. Therefore, non-regulation for the capitalists, anti-union regulation for the workers.

The point this crackpot philosophy misses (probably deliberately) is that both sides try and control the market by interfering with the laws of supply and demand for their own benefit. In other words, as far as Thatcherite economics was concerned, it is quite alright for capitalist corporations to control the market on behalf of their shareholders, but wrong for unions to do the same thing on behalf of their members.

Where is the justice in that?

Anyway, the point I wanted to make was that general strikes were banned in Britain a long time before Thatcher came to power. Thatcher merely built on the repressive legislation of a repressive state, and in so doing made that state even more repressive. And all in the name of profit.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 12:04 PM

Donuel. "As demonstrtions go this one lacked imagination and talent."

Pardon? How on earth can a demonstration, as distinct from the people who take part in it, possess imagination and talent?

Anyway, what would you like to have seen? A diversion from the planned route perhaps, so that we could have gone to the House of Commons and held a mass lynching of the members?

Sorry Donuel. The HOC doesn't sit on Saturdays.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 12:17 PM

Where is the credible opposition to the Tories and the Plutocracy? Why haven't we got one? Who is going to stand up for the ordinary voter and taxpayer? I don't even see a glimmer of an answer on the horizon.

Let's get this straight: after 13 years of a Labour government, and after living in a city with a Labour council, I loathe, despise and detest the f*cking Labour Party. THIS DOES NOT MAKE ME A F*CKING TORY!!! Where is the alternative?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 12:32 PM

It is like dealing with the Goon Show here sometimes.

You don't like the coalition government, you don't like the Liberals, you don't like New Labour. Who the hell do you like ?

This country is in a mess, thanks to 13 years of a Labour government. Yes I am a Conservative (although Gervase still thinks I support the BNP, poor soul, proof please Gervase, or f. up).

Gatherings such as that rabble yesterday, will change nothing. The efforts of unions to drive a wedge between the country will come to nothing. We all remember how they plunged the country into crisis in the 1970's and 80's and exposed deep divisions in its own leadership. The road is closed for those devils within the unions who dream about harming our great nation. If they keep their shit up, their dream should be buried along with them, we did it before, and we will do it again.


As for those who were behind that violent rabble yesterday. You are responsible for damage to public properties, created disorder and attempted to create instability, eventually it will lead to bloodshed. Sooner or later you will be punished for these illegal acts. You will feel the full force of the law of the land, don't try to characterise the violent protesters as a very small minority, they weren't.



That was no show of defiance yesterday, it was a public disgrace. Over 200 scum balls were arrested and 84 people were injured including 31 police officers. Go tell the families of the injured, or those people who suffered property damage that a handful of bleeding heart left wing folkies cooing from the comfort of their chairs like bitter Lizzie supported it. Meanwhile, Gordon Brown was flying business class and laughing all they way to the bank after ruining the nations finances.

I'm absolutely confident that our leadership will continue with the necessary cuts. I genuinely believe the protesters disgraced themselves, and the coalition graduated with honours.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 12:37 PM

I know exactly how you feel, Shimrod. Years ago, in my innocence, I thought the Liberal Party might gird up its loins, get some vision and grow some teeth. No such luck, and getting into bed as part of this coalition has ruined their credibility.

I recall the early days of the Blair government when, after the mess of corruption and bigotry of the Major years (Parkinson, Aitken, et al), it felt - temporarily, as it happened - that there might be something new and different in the governing of the country. However, the Bernie Ecclestone affair put paid to that belief in a very short time.

I hated Thatcher and her policies and still detest her legacy, but - say what you like about her - she made her intentions very clear and was up front with what she believed in. Blair was soon revealed as a duplicit liar. And where to now - with all the snouts in the trough.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 12:43 PM

By the way, Richie - do you still want that lesson in basic statistics? I could throw in some basic info on economics for as well, if you like - starting with the shake-up of the banking system back in the late 70s/early 80s. No extra charge.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: BTNG
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 12:44 PM

Will, please don't confuse Herr Doktor Black with facts, he already has his mind made up *LOL*

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 12:48 PM

If you put a bunch of greedy, elitist, mean-minded, petty sociopaths in charge, Richie, shit happens - live with it!

Now we need a credible and effective opposition to the Tory slime-balls!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 12:50 PM

Bitter? That's a new twist, Richie...

Pissed off, yes.
Bitter, no.

Oh..and I voted Tony Blair in, after 15 years of bloody Tories who'd also done great damage. I didn't vote for him second time round.

We have *no* LEADERSHIP, that's the entire problem. These twits have never had to worry about money their whole lives long. They have no idea of the way folks are worrying or suffering out here and you know what, Richie? Just like you, they don't care either.

So much for The Big Society, huh?

Surely, shouldn't YOU be following your Leader's path into The Big Society, Richie, rushing forth to help those less fortunate than yourself? Creating a New and Caring Britain?

What's that, Richie?

Pardon? Did I hear 'Smash their lousey heads in!" coming from over your way? Surely not.....

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 01:03 PM

Tory and Labour are simply two sides of the same capitalist shirt.

If we could get some leaders who would back this idea

The Urbal Fix

it might be a start to an alternative.

Unfortunately, it isn't designed to make anyone mega millions, so no capitalist led government will go for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 01:20 PM

As amply demonstrated in Toronto and elsewhere, massive demonstrations bring out the hoodlums and vandals who smash and burn, destroying the intent of the protest organizers who may have a legitimate objective.

The police have a duty to apprehend these morons who destroy property and interfere with the work of the city, and whose sole purpose is to create havoc and scenes that the media exploit.

The purpose of the demonstration is lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 01:21 PM

Thanks, Tam...I'd forgotten about this. Brilliant idea. Tom Bliss is excellent at making documentaries. Not sure why the BBC haven't snapped him up, to be honest. Off to put it on my FB page....

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 01:26 PM

"As amply demonstrated in Toronto and elsewhere, massive demonstrations bring out the hoodlums and vandals who smash and burn, destroying the intent of the protest organizers who may have a legitimate objective."

Agent Provocateurs were in action in Toronto last year....and they were policemen. They forgot to remove their boots when they put on their civilian clothes....One of the Police Chiefs apologised for it later, saying that no way were his officers really going to throw the stones that were found in their hands.

The police also charged at peaceful demonstrators, seated on the ground, simply singing...They charged at them on horseback, as well as on foot.

It's all out there on Youtube, as it happened...which is why they were caught in the act...

And then there was Officer Bubbles of course...a nasty piece of work if ever there was one...


Google for it...the G20 police behaviour...shocked Canada and the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 01:41 PM

Most of us here in Canada applauded the action of the police in the G-20 demonstrations in Toronto. A few legitimate protesters may have been caught up in the roundup of hoodlums, but the smash and destroy morons had to be put down.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 01:41 PM

I have to hand it to you Lizzie, you have a great ability incorporating humour in your posts, I mean that in the nicest possible way.

Tin hats off for the moment. I feel the coalition is doing a good job, okay take aim if you wish. The reality remains we are in a financial mess, as is most other countries. what way is there out of this only to cut our cloth to suit the pattern ?

For example, if you spend more than you earn each month, sooner or later your bank of credit card company is going to reel you in. It is the same thing, we have more going out than coming in.

We will never agree on what needs cut. You will never agree there is wide scale abuse of the benefits system, teenage girls should not see pregnancy as a means to a house and income. None of you will never admit that Labour threw money at local councils to gain votes.

The country is up the creek without an oar.

I still want to hear what alterative you have in mind for government.

Tin hats back on again and head for the parapets.

Gervase. Still awaiting your proof I support the British National Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 02:08 PM

'ang on, didn't Baroness Porter, or whatever her name was..'er wot owns Tescos, the Tory one, throw money at voters over a housing deal years back? Can't recall all the details now....

They're all as bad as each other, all as corrupt as each other.

They're no different from the teenage girls who want a house, they'll do whatever it takes to get ahead, to get what they want...

The girls will ruin their babies lives, because they don't give a shit about them, just the house/flat and what comes with it....The politicans ruin the lives of their more grown up babies....the ones they too are supposed to care about....but all they care about is the photo in the paper, the expenses in their pocket, their name on the door of the office in the House of The Uncommon.

They abort their people in the same callous way that some women abort their little people, seeing them as nothing more than 'disposable'...something to deal with, then never give a second thought to them again...

Well, abortion has a terrible way of coming back to people, thoughts go through their heads, hormones won't let folks forget, bodies call out desperately to hold the babies they had kicked into being........And our morally bankrupt politicians will find the same thoughts waking them at night soon, thoughts of people with no homes, families blown apart by all of this, old folks that get turned out of loving homes because families can no longer care.....and just when they thought they could block it all out, pretend these weren't real people they're dealing with..."BOOM!" the abortion hits home, as their own families become touched by this recession, as members of their own flesh and blood start to struggle, lose *their* homes, lose *their* jobs......lose their minds, lose...their HOPE!   

They get a phone call....their young niece is pregnant....she's applied to the Council for a flat, as it's the ONLY way she will EVER be able to have a roof over her head...Her parents told her to do it, because they knew it was the only way forward for their child.....

And suddenly, the teenage and the politicians hormones intertwine in abject misery.....

Meanwhile, back at the ranch,.....Mr. and Mrs. W. Banker have just booked their 17th holiday to the Maldives this year, in a beautiful luxury bungalow on the beach, where they literally step out into the turquoise sea.....and as they sit there sipping their Pimms, reading about yet another new bonus waiting for them, the Recession Tsunami is starting to gather power a little further out in their ocean.........................and at the bottom of the page Mrs. Banker notices a small paragraph which says that the home of their neighbours, Mr. and Mrs. A. Corporate-Bastard, has been targetted by Ordinary People, apparently desperate to make their voices heard.....and their world starts to tumble, as they begin to realise that just possibly Marie Antoinette Times may beginning...all over again...

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 02:16 PM

"don't try to characterise the violent protesters as a very small minority, they weren't."

Actually there *were* according everyone but Richie, and that includes the Metropolitan Police who had to deal with the "very small minority". Even your Tory chum Bonzo agrees, who, unlike you, was actually there.

Likewise only a very small minority of Tory voters are as unfortunate as Richie too, most of them are decent people with slightly differing politics. I know, as I've met some. And none of those I've met appear to be afflicted with rabies.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 02:18 PM

A fair point, well put across.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 02:20 PM

Richie - tin hats off for the moment, by all means. Here's what it all looks like from one retired person's perspective:

My CV: Lower-middle class family background (rising from generations of miners and agricultural labourers); scholarship to public school; university; jobs in broadcasting and higher education interlocking with jobs as musician; always paid my way; no debts, no mortage; retired now and living in small but pleasant house in small but pleasant village in Sussex; two cars, including one ancient Volvo for gigging gear; taxed at source, even on my modest pension; one hard-working son; two small grandchildren.

I've never had the opportunity to buck the system - tax and Nat Ins., etc., were taken off me for 47 years. I've never been self-employed - the musical life has earned peanuts - and thus not able to claim tax or business perks. In short, a life of exemplary averageness!

And now, after living through a period when, from Thatcher onwards (deregulation of the UK and US banks, and the start of the monetarist system which sowed the seeds of financial greed - borrowing-to-lend, sub-prime mortgage loans, etc., etc.), after living a reasonable, almost exemplary financial life - after all this, I'm told "we're all in it together". But plainly, we're not all in it together. It's utterly galling, to me, to see immense bonuses being paid to senior bankers who, through greed and bad business practices, have demanded to be bailed out by people like me. Of course there are some scroungers on the state benefits system. In my village of around 5,000 souls, there are a handful of lazy sods who get away with what they can - but they're NOT the main problem.

If tax was clawed back from large businesses who use the system to avoid paying what they should pay to function in this country (for example), then a very large amount of money would swell the coffers. You see, it's not a refusal on my part to accept the fact that money needs to be saved - I quite understand the dilemma facing the country - it's a huge anger at where that money is to come from, knowing who the causers of the problem are.

If you can at least understand that point of view - I'm not asking you to agree with it all or in part - then we needn't have quite so much of the tin hat mentality.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 02:25 PM

Well said, Will.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 03:42 PM

Thanks Will.

I fully understand what you are saying, in fact, I agree with all of it. I will be honest, the bonus system for senior management and the financial institutions are wrong, I have never condoned them.

There is an attitude in the board room, "If you don't pay the salary, you don't get he man." That is now an established practice, you nor I will change it. I agree, some senior executives are paid way too much. In most cases it has minimal effect on their performance. It has no quantifiable effect on the performance of their companies unless he is a ruthless bastard, and I have met a few of them in my time.

As for bonus's "Paid for performance" it is a joke. The only measurable effect of these outlandish compensation packages is to drive an ever widening gap between senior management and the people they depend on to produce results.

If you or I made copious amounts of money from the proceeds of crime, the Assets Recovery Agency would take seize our assets, and rightly so. I firmly believe that those bankers who received hideous amounts of money as bonus's prior to the crash, should face the same treatment. Now this happened on Labour's watch and they took no action.

Your excellent post was very thought provoking.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 03:47 PM

Couldn't agree more.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 05:24 PM

What you all seem to ignore, is that regardless of which set of politicians are in power, we have become uncompetitive and the system unsustainable.

So few contributing to the pot and so many eating from it.

We have been encouraged to think that capitalism would keep producing growth for ever and we were willing listeners....still are, going by the posts on this thread.

I think we should all know by now that there is no such thing as a free lunch...capitalism has failed just as communism/socialism failed .....but for very different reasons

Time to ditch the politics and get back to reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: BTNG
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 06:24 PM

and what do you suggest we use instead, akenaton? Come, enlightened those of us who are apparently ignoring the obvious, elucidate, lead us into the light....if you can!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 08:08 PM

Sadly there is no easy answer to that question BTNG/akenaton. A lot of people still think we can spend our way out of a recession, we can't.

It was a Labour Prime Minister, James Callaghan, who officially incorporated monetarist thinking into UK government economic policy making, when he recognised that more public borrowing in an inflationary era would make matters worse.

Of course in one sense you can only overcome a recession by more spending. A recession is insufficient demand chasing too many goods and services , leading to job losses, falling prices and cuts in output. The issue is not whether we need more demand or not, but how you bring that about.

The priority is to encourage more private sector demand, because it is private sector demand which is falling sharply. You do that by cutting interest rates substantially.   Lower interest rates feed through immediately to borrowers whose rates are linked to MLR, and later will benefit others as money markets start to function better.

Until there is more confidence there will be insufficient private sector demand. The gap will be too large for an over borrowed public sector to be able to fill, even if the government took the risk of expanding public borrowing even more than they are already doing.


I am probably making myself a target here, but the coalition government is in power, we need to accept this fact and pull together and get ourselves out of this mess. Alternatively, we can blame, Labour, Bankers, Thatcher, Cameron or someone else.
If anyone has a better idea or a solution, please tell us.

I will probably require my tin hat again.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:48 AM

Richie - thanks for listening - hopefully, the debate can continue without tin hats! I'm sure that, on many points we may be in agreement - though we may beg to differ on the historical reasons and/or on the remedies that are necessary to cure the present problems. These things are easier to discuss over a pint in a pub garden!

It's understanding the other's point of view that's crucial in any debate. :-)

I should add that, from my years in the BBC, I have a profound and deep mistrust of politicians as a class. The genuine ones - and who can really tell what they are from their public face - are few and far between. Blair turned out to be a slimy git; we never had the chance to assess the real John Smith; the late Alan Clark was a unique character with real principle.. and so it goes. For that reason, my posts here, however barbed they may have been, have been strictly apolitical as far as possible. Politically I'm a socialist be inclination (and through my interest in family history) but, pragmatically, I prefer consensus politics - hard to find at any time.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:21 AM

Can I just throw another factor into the mix - the environment? During the 'boom' times (periods of sustained economic growth) the environment suffers. Simply put, more of the earth's surface get s concreted over and there's more pollution.

During depressions/recessions the pressure eases off a bit and the planet is not degraded quite as fast (at least not in those areas with economic problems).

Hence, I believe that economic growth is bad for the environment and ultimately unsustainable. To me this is a statement of the 'bleeding obvious' (although a councillor in this city has just told me, in a letter, that "economic growth can be good for the environment" - he doesn't say how!).

I think that if a new progressive politics ever emerges (probably not in my lifetime) it will have to address the question of sustainability.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:29 AM

Shimrod, Confront him with his statement and ask him to explain his remark.

Thanks Will.

I think part of the problem is most politicians have no conception of reality.
Politicians are a set of men who have interests aside from the interests of the people, and who
are, taken as a mass, at least one long step removed from honest men.


Nearly three quarters of voters think politics is broken in Britain, while almost a half
think their local constituency MP abuses the system of parliamentary expenses and allowances.

That is the public's view of politicians, and they ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:49 AM

Politicians are a set of men who have interests aside from the interests of the people, and who are, taken as a mass, at least one long step removed from honest men.

Amen to that. As somebody once said, any man who wants to enter politics should be barred from doing so!

One of my favourite readings, which I return to from time to time, is Alan Clark's first volume of his diaries. Clark was a patrician in the old sense of the world, a true snob who genuinely believed that his upper-class society, as opposed to the mere commonplace below his level, was the rightful ruling class of Britain. Eton, Sandhurst, the Guards, and an ancestral home at Saltwood Castle in Kent. An ardent supporter of Thatcher and totally hooked on getting Ministerial rank.

Sums him up, doesn't it? And yet... and yet... also an athlete and highly intelligent man who wrote a superb book on the fumblings and failings of the WW1 generals ("The Donkeys"), which earned him the suspicion of the high-ups in the MoD. (Clark aspired to be Minister of Defence). A vegetarian who loved wildlife and brought Thatcher's fury down on his head by fighting to abolish the fur trade against her express wishes. So, a rounded character and, love him or loathe him, a man who didn't give a damn about protocol and believed passionately in the things that drove him. A man who earned the disapproval of the high-ups at a private party given by Prince Charles because he attacked the conventional cold-war view of the West v. Russia scenario as outdated (he believed the future threats would come from the Middle East and terrorism...). We don't see his like very often, in any party.

And what is very clear from reading his book is that the Civil Servants do their very utmost to prevent Ministers and their ilk to do anything off their own bat, fill up the politicians' time with the infamous red boxes, cram their schedules so that every spare minute is accounted for. Real "Yes Minister" stuff!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:55 AM

It was good to see the police not charging in like the horsebacked cavalry this time. Perhaps they have an axe to grind with police job cuts too.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:06 AM

"Shimrod, Confront him with his statement and ask him to explain his remark."

Don't worry, Richie, I have done! I've just written him a long letter in the course of which I've asked him why he appears to be living on a different planet from the rest of us?

My definition of a contemporary politician is a person who seems to believe that you can get a quart into a pint pot or a quart out of a pint pot. He believes these things because (a) he is ignorant of the wider world around him and/or (b) because it suits the purposes of his masters in Big Business for him to believe them.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: andrew e
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 08:01 AM

http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/46460-the-truth-behind-the-battle-of-trafalgar-square-march-26th-2011

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 09:34 AM

Thirteen years of Labour Mismanagement seems to be a popular cry , but as far as I can see , the WORST the New Labour Neo Conservatives did was NOT try to correct the damage done by The Blessed Margaret who seemed to be hell bent on destroying not only ANY power that the (For the most part) properly run Trade Unions had , but at the same time to wipe out mmost of Britain's manufacturing base and turn the economy into a Service Economy , rather than a manufactuiring econpmy .

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: MikeL2
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 10:52 AM

<"Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Will Fly - PM
Date: 27 Mar 11 - 02:20 PM">

Hi Will

I thank you for your great comments and in turn for pulling this thread together. Tin hats should not be necessary here !!!

I come from a similar background as you and I think similarly about politics and politicians.

I also agree with Ritchie when he says that we should all pull together to get us through this financial situation. The trouble is that there is more than one way perceived to be the most appropriate. My main concern about the current Government is that they appear to be doing much talking about what should be done but very little visible progress appears to be taking place. I don't expect miracles and understand that this will take some time but I just hope that they get on with it.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 10:58 AM

Well leadfingers we could go back to what she inherited after James Callaghan's government lost a motion of no confidence in 1979, but let's not look back.

Whilst it is fair to say that the nature of democracy is changing, its fundamentals still remain the same: individuals in this country have the right to hold whatever political or religious beliefs they choose and to openly express those beliefs, and they are free to support and vote for a party that reflects their views.

When the Labour party formed, its principle objective was to campaign for workers rights and to improve the living conditions of the working classes in the UK. For the upper classes dominating British politics at the time, as well as the large majority of individuals who felt that it was an employer's right to treat their workers as they pleased, these were considered to be radical ideals. Yet if the party as it stood at the time had been banned, workers today would not enjoy the rights that are now taken for granted. Labour has moved away from that stance as far as I can see.


The biggest risk to this country I see is it leading to voters staying away from polling stations. Worryingly, It can also lead to extremist parties like the BNP (who for some reason Gervase Webb thinks I support, for the record, I despise them and what they stand for, still awaiting your proof Gervase) gaining votes from the disillusioned, don't rule that out.

Given that Britain is a democratic country, individuals may deplore and speak out against such parties, but we do not have the right to remove them from the political system. Remember that Oswald Mosley left the Labour Party in 1931 to form the party that ultimately became the British Union of Fascists because Labour had rejected his plan to defeat mass unemployment with a programme of public investment.

Campaign leaflets delivered in white working-class areas this year described the BNP as "the Labour Party your grandfathers voted for". People could believe that shite.

Yes I support the current collation government, most of you don't. Be aware of the alterative that you wish for.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 11:03 AM

I wish for this....

The People's Democracy of Trinidad & Tobago

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 11:12 AM

Beautiful islands, but there is a serious crime problem. Hotel staff give the best advice where NOT to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 11:27 AM

Richie Black. "Oswald Mosley left the Labour Party in 1931 to form the party that ultimately became the British Union of Fascists"

You seem to have (conveniently?) forgotten that Mosley was originally a member of the Conservative Party and the tory member for Harrow, before leaving the Conservatives, and establishing himself as an independent, before then joining the Labour Party, eventually becoming the member for Smethwick.

A wayward career by any standards, but I certainly wouldn't judge the entire Conservative Party by him; just as I am sure you wouldn't judge the 1/2 million marchers, who protested against the cuts on Saturday, by the handful of nutters who appear to have thought they were at a Bullingdon Club bunfight.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 11:38 AM

It seems like the 'bend over and be shafted like good little proles' squad are in full cry here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 12:13 PM

Fred, over 200 of those in attendance were arrested for assault and criminal damage on Saturday how can you define that as " handful of nutters." Big handful would you not agree ?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 12:48 PM

.04 of 1% of those who attended, under the assumption that they were part of the organised march which I very much doubt, more likely 'organised' extremists who used the event as an excuse to cause trouble, for their own purposes and planned well in advance of the day.

99.96% engaged in non-violent protest - it was well organised, with proper stewarding, police consultation and involvement.

So yes, in proportion to the event/day, they were just a handful.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 01:24 PM

No way were they part of the march, we saw very rowdy groups of sludge dressed in black, carrying black flags, wearing scarves around their faces and of course with hoods up.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 01:44 PM

I think what was meant is that they (the masked thugs) had their own agenda and therefore were not part of the march as it was intended by the TUC.

They were actually as much anti march as they are anti government, anti property, etc.

I love see the reasoned discussion here. These discoveries of common ground.

Gives me hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 01:49 PM

I seem to recall the 'Class War' graffiti going up last night, on the news, someone was scrawling it on a door, or a wall....

The 'Class War' bunch are a nasty group...my ex-husband got their leaflets banned from being carried by The Royal Mail, many years back now, as they were filled with vitriol.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:03 PM

I was just about to reply to Richie Black's comments about 200 arrests, when I saw SPB's comments. To which amen.

Unlike everybody else (I think) in this discussion, I saw almost the entire march from a very good vantage point. I do not recall seeing anything more than a tiny number of anarchists taking part in the march. Yes, there were a lot more occupying Trafalgar Square, and I've no doubt they were the ones who caused the trouble after the rest of us had gone home. But they were not a part of what even the police and the home secretary agreed was a well organised, peaceful and well behaved march.

BTW., it might serve RB and one or two others to reflect that there are different shades of anarchism, just as there are different shades of socialism and conservatism. Not everyone who carries a black flag supports wanton violence. Come to that, a large proportion of those 200 arrests were of people supporting UK Uncut protests. Again, something entirely separate from the march.

I know very little about UK Uncut, but I do know that it is not an anarchist organisation. Indeed, as far as I can see, it is organised around the principle of non-violent direct action. Something which Ghandi, Bertrand Russell and other great pacifists would have approved.

If that is so, then I for one support their actions on Saturday, and observe that the number of arrests of violent nutters was far less than 200.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:19 PM

Christ Fred, I hope that post makes more sense to you than it does to me.

Everyone knew people would cause criminal damage at that gathering on Saturday. I am not prepared to play ping pong about facts and figures, we covered that subject for two days.

It might be reassuring to the general public if those who organised such events appointed marshals or Stewarts and encouraged them to make citizens arrests when they see people pushing iron bars through windows or throwing paint bombs at policemen. It is not enough to say, "they were not with us" that may well be true, but the organisers of this event must have known when you call people onto the streets as they did, criminal damage was inevitable.

So that's my view on it, I feel it is reasonable, but go ahead, line up and pull holes in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: pdq
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:36 PM

A few posts back, "andrew e" gave a link to the website of David Icke.

I heard an interview of the man and followed that up with a trip to his site. He blames everything wrong in the world on an invisible group of elitist led by a Zionist conspiracy. The guy makes some sense when you first hear him, but he just another impediment to the Truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:37 PM

'Class War' Facebook page ....where they talk about the next stop being the Royal Wedding..


Taken from the Forum page of their main site, their FB thread:

>>>Nov 08, 2010; 08:46pmRe: Class War On Facebook Reply | Threaded |
      
Not a good idea comrades to link any current, ongoing or any future operations on Facebook, better to use it as an archive of previous actions only.

We do not discuss on Facebook any future meetings or actions, this will be done using a second phone and all are expected to optain one which isn't registered with your name or address a.s.a.p. We'll then link up those numbers via those we know personally and so we keep the plod guessing and never knowing. <<<<<

'Class War' - Main Site

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: TheSilentOne
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:43 PM

I recommend Robert Peston's "Who Owns Britain" (2008). He is no leftie, but he does illustrate how Blair and Brown sucked up to the City and big business interests during their time in government. Blair allowed the gap between rich and poor to continue to widen during his premiership.

Peston also deals well with the beginning of the credit crunch, the mistakes of the banks and the machinations of the hedge funds.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Stu
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:14 PM

"It might be reassuring to the general public if those who organised such events appointed marshals or Stewarts and encouraged them to make citizens arrests when they see people pushing iron bars through windows or throwing paint bombs at policemen"

Yeah, right - that's going to happen. What pompous drivel. Anyone striding up to some nutter intent on causing trouble and attempting a citizen's arrest will probably get a smack in the face.

At least be realistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:19 PM

"Unlike everybody else (I think) in this discussion, I saw almost the entire march from a very good vantage point. I do not recall seeing anything more than a tiny number of anarchists taking part in the march. Yes, there were a lot more occupying Trafalgar Square, and I've no doubt they were the ones who caused the trouble after the rest of us had gone home. But they were not a part of what even the police and the home secretary agreed was a well organised, peaceful and well behaved march."

We marched down Picadilly at approximately 1:30pm. We went past all the shops later targeted, including Fortnums. The march remained peaceful and good natured.

The people we saw later in the action outside Fortnums were Black Bloc anarchists. They emerged from the crowd with soundsystems on bikes. The mood palpably changed. That does NOT mean that the UK Uncut occupiers inside were Black Bloc.

Of the hundreds of thousands of people we saw, the militant anarchists were around 100 people, at a guess. They were entirely separate from the peaceful protest, and had their own agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:19 PM

200

Yesterday afternoon, Will Fly wrote one of the most moving and thought provoking posts I ever read on this site. It made a lot of posters sit back and think, It certainly did with me anyway. I felt Will Fly's post was a turning point in this debate.

It would appear others cared not to read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,ruth astray
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:19 PM

Guest below: me.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:24 PM

Richie, this is an interesting video about how the media constantly chooses to report the bad things at demonstrations, protests, etc..rather than focussing on the good points....

It gives the reasons behind it too, how controlled the media now is...Well worth a look when you get a moment.

Lizzie

Globalisation and The Media - Youtube

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,ruth astray
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:29 PM

Oh - someone's just posted this on my Facebook, which gives some insight into what was happening inside, separate from the anarchist action:

A view from inside the UK Uncut occupation of Fortnum's

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:32 PM

The "credit crunch" was not an unhappy accident, the deregulation which preceeded it was encouraged by successive governments, in search of ever increasing growth in the economy....a necessity for capitalism to survive......one last roll of the dice, and we all know who the losers were.....not the banks, not the capitalist financial wisards, but you and me......Mr and Mrs Joe Public, and their children and grand children.

We are now at the start of a downward spiral to "Third World" status.
That would be acceptable, if a little hard on the softies which capitalism bred in the good times, but unfortunately there are plenty of new faces to sit at the top table and continue the environmental abuse which we started in the glory days of "Empire"

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM

"UK Uncut really offers an alternative," said Anna Mason, 15, from Liverpool, as she showed me her home-made sign against tax evasion. "We are peaceful, making a point, and haven't broken anything." While groups such as Black Bloc were smashing windows on Oxford Street, UK Uncut members were reading books in groups on the floor and tucking into home-made sandwiches."

Give me fuckin' strength!!

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:52 PM

acke, unless you are for the violent imposition of radical system change military coup stylee, then you will have to bide your time until the people actually desire such change. Meanwhile, the more immediate goal of toppling this coelition looks like it might have potential.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:59 PM

The appearance of extremists on these demonstrations inevitably draw the mice out of their holes with squeaks of "rentamob", all anxious to persuade us that we - the people, should be prepared to pick up the tab for the crisis created by the greed of boardroom fatcats, avaricious bankers and corrupt and incompetent conservative (with a small c) govermnents of various shades of blue.
I'm not surprised to see one such egger-offer (who knows who he is, but is probably too shy to step into the limelight) who previously proposed that the police suppressing the student demonstrations should have used water cannons, helicopters, and if that didn't produce the desired result, resort to the tactics employed by South American mass-murderers - how many did Mrs Thatcher's friend Pinochet notch up??
I had a close-up education of the origins of some of these 'extremists' back in 1968 on the Grosvenor Square antiViet-Nam War demo.
A few of us had managed to make our way to near the front of the US Embassy when we were joined by a couple of young men who began tearing off the placards from their poles and using them as lances to throw into the police human-chain. The police rushed us and we were scattered, but managed to re-form a couple of minutes later. By then the banner-throwing Spartans had crossed over to the other side and had joined the police cordon - an instant Road-to-Damascus coversion, we presumed!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:12 PM

if black bloc have balls then they shouldn't be shadowing other orgs like ukuncut in order to undertake their own more radical action.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: TheSilentOne
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:43 PM

The more detailed coverage I see of Saturday's events the clearer it becomes that the police are not as innocent of blame as the media coverage on the day would have had us believe. For a start, the 138 people occupying Fortum and Mason's were congratulated on their behaviour INSIDE the building by the police, and were held there, they were told, "for their own safety". The police assured them they would not be arrested (video footage confirms all this). But OUTSIDE the riot police ignored that and arrested them for aggravated trespass. Take that number away from the 200 or so arrested, and you are left with 60+ who MAY have been arrested for violence.

Some other reports indicate that the violence in Trafalgar Square may have been initiated by police action. I am beginning to realise it was naive to think the old days of police agents provocateur had gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:27 PM

Well there you have it. If I decided to knock your door, say hello friend,walk past you and sit down in protest on your living room floor because you posted here that only 60 people broke windows, when I felt a few more than that were involved, and maybe ask you to pass me down a slice of that sponge cake sitting on the table that the wife knocked up last night, what would you do ?

Call the police and ask them to put on woolen gloves and escort me to the street and keep an eye on them in case one of them shouted and pointed down the street "here's a rat" to distract you, them put his knee in my balls ?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:29 PM

Here is
video inside Fortnum & Masons showing that police inside were helpful and behaved appropriately and assisted with orderly departure. Stated that the protesters were free to leave.

But the police in riot gear outside immediately kettled the UnCut protesters as they left the shop and arrested them.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:32 PM

500 000 marching. 201 involved in affray. I was there, and I saw something happening outside Fortnum's while most people were in the Park, and a few of the Black Block earlier. (And Richard Stilgoe also commente don how odd it is how well organised the anarchists are.) I did not see as many as 200. I saw very many more perfectly ordinary people who were not involved in violence - indeed those near the Black Block actively put space between them.

Richie, you were not there and have no justification for stating, without any evidence, that the violence was not from a small minority. Even your beloved government accepts that it was only a few.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:36 PM

Actually Richie, I would probably offer you a seat on the sofa (more comfortable) and a slice of cake and cup of tea or coffee (your choice) and invite you to friendly discussion.

I am the woman who used to frighten Jehovah's Witnesses and Latter Day Saints with my Bible (chock full of book markers and notes). After one visit, I would watch them avoid my house and warn others against me.

:~)

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:42 PM

Guess I should clarify that I was a southern baptist at the time, meaning not all that different as far as conviction of belief goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:45 PM

I made that last post without reading all the thread, which revealed another side to Richie. I don't want to stir things up again.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:47 PM

Ah I know that VT, just trying to bring a little humour into a discussion that was (Thanks to Will Fly )was going so well then took a nose dive late this afternoon.

Hope your aches and pains have subsided, "no pain no gain" as they say. Admire you for your perseverance and commitment.

Sadly it looks like this thread is back to tin hats and trenches.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:48 PM

Thanks Penny, have you any cake in the house ? sorry, just asking.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:58 PM

I do indeed - unfortunately from Lidl, not Fortnum's - couldn't get in at the time I was there.

Has anyone any other reports than that from the Icke site about provocative stuff from the police? I didn't see anything like that at the time I was there.

When bangers went off near the Black Bloc early on, none of the police looked at all interested, and didn't even seem to be checking on their radios. At Fortnum's, later, there were three drivers looking unhappy in surrounded empty vans. Then the riot cohort arrived, but I didn't see them doing anything I would have wanted to photograph and send to the papers.

I assume that there was lack of communication between the police inside Fortnum's and the riot lot.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:25 PM

Great Penny, will check with "The Quiet One" first, something tells me he swiped a Battenberg cake in Fortnum's.

Correct me if I am wrong, but did a few bangers not go off inside David Icke's head a while back ?

As I recall, he got the backs up of a few Canadain Jews when he said "The reptilians were the original authors of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a 1903 Russian forgery purporting to be a plan by the Jewish people to achieve world domination."

Canada wasn't going to let him into the country. His books were removed from the shelves of Indigo Books, a Canadian chain, after protests from the Canadian Jewish Congress.

Didn't he talk to God or something too ?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 02:32 AM

TheSilentOne doesn't like Battenburg... Too rich.

:~)

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 03:12 AM

So despite the hoo ha with the battenburg and the jar of olives, it all went ok. As an armchair observer I don't think the police could have handled it any other way. It probably avoided even more casualties than if they had gone in in a gunho fashion so they are damned if they do and damned if they don't as I see it but I although I was unable to make it to the Park myself I was there in spirit.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 03:38 AM

"Sadly it looks like this thread is back to tin hats and trenches."
Just as long as it doesn't go back to water cannon and helicopters, eh Richie!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 04:54 AM

Indeed Jim, I imagine the freestate is better.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:48 AM

Certainly better than the un-free states that use water-cannon, helicopters and mass-murder to suppress opposition Rich
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:02 AM

So true Jim, no one wants to see mass murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM

Richie, old chap, I think you missed the irony in Jim's statement :)

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:45 AM

The Black Bloc represented a tiny proportion of the people protesting on Saturday - and as usual they hijacked the event for their own purposes and ended up getting a disproportionate amount of coverage for their infantile militant liberal agenda. They are the ultimate elitists - it's not about mass action and popular protest but about themselves as the vanguard "taking on" the state and the police on "our" behalf (the politics of "Look at me! Look at me! Aren't I wadical!"). And its all wrapped up in muddled political thinking that half of them probably couldn't articulate anyway (including those with a middle class upbringing and university degrees - and unless the anarchist movement has changed there are plenty of those). I suspect they are riddle with provocateurs, too...

When I was involved in anarchist politics, we had very little time for the precursors of this lot - but it seems that these days they are the mainstream in the anarchist movement. Even Freedom Newspaper is celebrating a bunch of idiot kids trashing a few windows as if its a major political coup. Tragic, really. And don't get me started on Class War, Lizzie...

And I think it's important to differentiate between the non-violent direct action of UK Uncut(which is reminiscent of the old Peace News crew) and the nihilists of the Black Bloc.

In the meantime, isn't it heartening to see nearly half a million people out on the streets telling the government exactly what they think of their cuts? Of course there's an alternative - but it can't just be about tinkering around on the margins and deciding how quickly or slowly cuts are imposed. It has to be around a whole set of conversations about what sort of society we actually want to live in. Including, as Shimrod points out, the green angle.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 10:46 AM

Spleen, I agree absolutely but there's no point in telling Richie. As far as he's concerned, everyone who was there on Saturday is tarred with the doctrine of equal responsibility. Therefore, those of who wanted a peaceful march have no right to hold one because of a few nutters who weren't even connected with the aims of the demonstration. I'm not sure whether his attitude is more reminiscent of an ostrich with its head in the sand, or somebody pissing into the wind.

Imagine the outcry if the authorities closed every pub in the land because a handful of people, who couldn't hold their drink, wrecked everything in sight. Or how about if the authorities banned football because of the violent thuggery of a tiny minority of hooligans.

I wonder what he'd say if those scenes on Saturday were not of the centre of London, but of protests in any one of a half a dozen Arab countries. Yeahh I know. But this government wasn't elected either.

And by the way, of the 200 and odd arrests, 138, or knocking on for 3/4, were charged with nothing more than aggravated trespass. IE., for peacefully protesting in Fortnum and Mason's. Weepable ennit?

But as I said, there's no use telling Richie. Our betters have spoken, and all we can honourably do in response is to touch the forelock and bend the knee. Of course we'll also need to suffer the ignominy of the dole, of having our governmental services shut down, of seeing our children begin their working careers with £27,000 of debt round their necks, and of seeing our police so depleted that they won't be able to control the riots that will result.

Citizens arrests, my arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 11:17 AM

Fred,any more word on that stay order against the closure of that home you are in ?

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:11 PM

One point must be underlined. Rich people generally do not create jobs unless that are forced to. Reagan's "Trickle down" theory doesn't demonstrably work.

The only way that people will have a living wage is if they demand it. This means protesting arbitrary and false austerity programs.

Reverse Robin Hood is not the answer.

People standing up for peace with justice, political defiance, collective will and
demonstrations of that will are.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:17 PM

If we like fair competition, we don't like capitalism nor monarchism - http://walkaboutsverse.webs.com/#105

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:18 PM

Here's a pretty enlightened view on why the cuts won't work - and why they're not even meant to:

Johann Hari on the economics of fiscal thrift


These cuts are ideological. They are a deliberate dismantling of the welfare state.

Subject: RE: BS: Mad march in London
From: GUEST,ruth astray
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:18 PM

Guest below: me.