BS: List the reasons people disagree

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 01:16 AM

I think, Don, that in most cases everyone thinks pretty much the same thing about their "good guys" in general terms...but not in specific terms of outer labels and outer political issues...just in general terms.

In other words, they think that their "good guys" are dedicated to truth, patriotism, loyalty, courage, duty, honor, honesty, freedom, and all such good stuff.

The people they are fighting ("the bad guys") think all that stuff about their own "good guys" too. Both sides imagine that their own "good guys" are fighting for every kind of good thing, and that the enemy is opposing every kind of good thing.

This is usually quite naive on the part of both sides, although it may also be partly true on both sides...and to differing degrees.

WWII's Germans, for instance, mostly felt that they were fighting for truth, justice, freedom, courage, duty, honor, honesty, patriotism, civilization, etc. That's what their leaders told them!

And the Allied leaders told the Allied troops the same kind of things.

I'm not saying both sides were morally equivalent! They certainly were not. But I think they were both utterly sure that they were standing up for the "good" values against the "evil" values.

In that case, the Germans were far more completely misled than those who were fighting against them, that's all, because they were under a worse system for the most part (Stalinism excepted...I think it was just as bad as Naziism).

People are easily fooled by their own propaganda and culture. They always think they're fighting for the "good" against the "bad" no matter which side they are fighting on.

Didn't the Lakota think they were fighting for the "good"? Didn't Custer's men think the same thing? Each seeing it from their own view, it made sense. But from the enemy's view, it didn't.

In a similar way, the eagle that siezes the fish thinks he's doing a very good thing. The fish thinks he's doing a very bad thing, but if the fish were catching a fly, then the fish would think he was doing a very good thing, wouldn't he? And what would the fly think?

In practical terms...in the real experience of life...the "good guys" are GOOD because we think they are, based on our culture, our history, our politics, and our entire background and memory.

If we are clear-headed enough to think beyond our culture, our history, our politics, and our entire background...THEN we are able to see through propaganda to a higher truth...and THEN we CAN determine who is doing good, who is doing evil, and who is just doing something that's somewhere in between those extremes.

How many people are clearheaded enough to think beyond their culture, their history, their politics, their race, their gender, and their entire personal background? To put it another way: how many people are completely unbiased and unprejudiced, and therefore capable of rendering a completely fair judgement on another's actions?

And that's why someone once said: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

If people had the wisdom to do that, to behave that honestly, I predict that very few stones would ever be cast at anyone. And we'd have no wars. And no quarrels either.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 02:16 AM

I wasn't really asking because I don't know, Little Hawk. I'll have more to say on this subject, but it's past my bedtime right now. Tomorrow.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Monique
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 04:39 AM

Can't we all in all sum it up by "like me = good" "not like me = bad"?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 04:51 AM

Jani said,

" Where it really gets interesting and complex is the process of each individual in defining their "interest." Most people, (I hope) often disagree with themselves and are aware of it."

To enlarge on that, each individual may or may difine their interests consciously. It may be that they have their position as a consequence of upbringing whereby their interest isn't an interest at all, but, for them, more like the air they breathe, i.e. something just given as a 'fact of life'.

Apart from all that, their interest can be arrived at thru a mixture of some of the reasons I originally suggested, like a particular psychology and a lack of knowledge.


personally, Jack, I simply do not see disagree and disapprove as synonyms.

I can certainly see that people disrespect or experience disrespect. In my book, that is in a somewhat different realm from disagreement.

Some may wish to blur the lines between disagree and disapprove or disrespect. I am one wanting to keep the distinction, and make it clearer.



What has prompted me to start this thread is a very long-standing one of wanting to stand back from any argument, especially the longest-riunning ones, to get a grip on what is really going on.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 05:56 AM

It is just individuality to have ones own thought, on a planet this size it is obvious that not everyone is going to agree on absolutely everything.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 06:25 AM

>>personally, Jack, I simply do not see disagree and disapprove as synonyms.<<

I didn't make that up I got it from an online dictionary. Yesterday. You may not see it but it is. Clearly there are three subtly different meanings for the word. If you want to have a discussion with someone about the word "disagree". Their definition of the word is just as valid as yours.

>>Some may wish to blur the lines between disagree and disapprove or disrespect. I am one wanting to keep the distinction, and make it clearer.<<

I don't think it is a question about what "some may wish" It is a question about a generally accepted meaning of the word. I respect that you want to discuss the aspects of one specific definition. ie "having a different opinion" But arguing (Bill D's definition) that there is only one definition, if that is what you are doing, could quite possibly lead to the other two definitions. Which are expressing a difference of opinion and/or disapproval.

Please pardon me. I just had some fun with what you said. I will return to serious discussion now.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 07:51 AM

LH, On a broader sense most wars and military conflicts involve a disagreement of some form, if one considers that those involved have different perspectives and interests (such as personal gain). The cause of the conflict may be very different from what is believed by, or sold to, the troops and citizens on either side.

The crusades are an interesting example of these complexities. Those involved set aside many of their core religious values (that seemed to be importnat to them) to solve a disagrement over which religion should rule an area. That seems puzzling to me. However, one should never rule out that economic gain is not somewhere underneath such conflicts.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 08:29 AM

Because people are not all the same - we have different experiences, different ways of ordering priorities and seeing the world.

The more relevant question is why people treat disagreement as a reason to quarrel.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 09:54 AM

More relevant to what?

It would certainly make an interesting thread of its own.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 11:42 AM

People disagree because they refuse to listen to my, the voice of truth and reason.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 11:51 AM

"What has prompted me to start this thread is a very long-standing one of wanting to stand back from any argument, especially the longest-riunning ones, to get a grip on what is really going on."

Yes. I think that's a very good idea, autolycus. People tend to get themselves emotionally entangled in an argument/quarrel/disagreement and it takes them over, and they lose track of what's really going on. To stand back from it can calm the mind and allow a person to sort of re-calibrate their thoughts and find their way out of the emotional briar patch that they got stuck in, in the heat of the moment.

Sometimes it's best to say nothing. And wait.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 12:26 PM

Just think, Rap, how transformed Amos's life would be by now, had he chosen to listen to yours, the voice of truth and reason. ;-) Instead, he is haunting Starbucks and sublimating his stress in outrageous SoCal bafflegab, and making secret trips down to Mexico for reasons best left unsaid.

(That's a joke, people. Refer to the MOABS thread for background and explanation. Read at least 1,000 of the posts that fly back and forth between Amos and Rapparee on that thread and all will become crystal clear.)

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 06:45 AM

Rapp

You, and others with the same thought, remind me of this story.

Two people who were arguing finally decided to go to the guru.

One said, "I think this."

The guru said, "You're right."

The other said, "But I think that."

The guru said, "You're right."

The first said, "Wait a minute, wait a minute. We can't both be right."

And the guru said, "You're right."

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Musket
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 08:20 AM

Cos the other bloke has a beard

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 09:00 AM

Genuine tragedies in the world are not conflicts between right and wrong. They are conflicts between two rights. ~Georg Hegel

No snowflake ever falls in the wrong place. ~Zen

The only Zen you can find on the tops of mountains is the Zen you bring up there. ~Robert M. Pirsig

Almost every wise saying has an opposite one, no less wise, to balance it. ~Santayana, Essays

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 01:55 PM

Fwiw, I've looked for that Hegel quote in the 25 or so best of my dictionaries of quotations, including one devoted to philosophy and ging back over 70 years,without finding it.

Online, it is alternatively given to the German dramatist C.F.Hebbel.In either case, the source is never given.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Greg B
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 02:04 PM

I think I'd rather go next door for "being hit on the head lessons."

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 04:15 PM

anyone who disagrees with me is not people

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 05:02 PM

It's interesting, if not actually worrying, the numbers of people [and it's presumably world-wide] who say, in effect, "I am right,anyone who disagrees with me is therefore wrong, and that's that." [unless people are joking, of course.]

I mean, if one person says that, for a moment you might run with that.

But now imagine being a fly-on-the-wall in a room of a dozen people sitting in a circle, and ALL of them saying that same sentence. Alsao imagine they are saying it about a subject on which you are quite ignorant and have no opinion.

Wouldn't that situation looked very odd or flawed or confusing or something?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 07:02 PM

People disagree because they're all too human.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 07:27 PM

"I am right,anyone who disagrees with me is therefore wrong, and that's that."

I think people who actually say that are almost always mocking someone. Usually the mockee is the mocker's father.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: gnu
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 09:09 PM

"List the reasons people disagree"

No.

You wouldn't agree with my postulates.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 01:03 AM

gnu

I'm seeking to agree with everybody but look at why we don't/can't/won't.

Naturally nobody has to do anything.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 01:04 AM

That should have read

I'm not seeking to agree with everybody but look at why we don't/can't/won't.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 11:46 AM

Tere is only one answer really, and all of the above boil down to that one.

Because each (based upon what he/she knows, or thinks he/she knows) believes that the other is wrong and he/she is right.

It's as basic as that, and really supremely unimportant, so long as each accepts the other's right to hold an opposite opinion.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 11:48 AM

AND they can compromise on the action needed (if any).

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 02:43 AM

Because people get confused. Some people use money, and love their friends and family, while the others love money and use their friends and family!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 06:45 AM

Don T.

Part of my point is, let me put it this way; if each person thinks they are right, then there's not much point in discussion beyond simply announcing one's position.

Doesn't discussion and debate assume that someone/ everyone is going, at ome point, to reconsider their own position in the light of what others say?

To say otherwise seems to me to be saying none of us have anything to learn from others.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 06:57 AM

""if each person thinks they are right, then there's not much point in discussion beyond simply announcing one's position.""

People have said that many times, in MC, for example. Regardless, people still post and answer each other in pointless argument. This leads to much of the discord. It seems the desire to be right, win, and be seen right is very strong. Also, the desire to "put the other person in their place", is also strong. This is encouraged by similar minded people weighing in on one side or the other. The religious posts, and middle east threads, where strong personal views
exist are good examples.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 07:27 AM

When I want your opinion, I'll tell you what it is.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 10:39 AM

Ed.T

Quite. It's those sorts of scenarios that are the background to the thread. And reasons for it.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 12:04 PM

As many have stated before, it is reasonable that people disagree.
It is the reaction to disagreement that is puzzling.

I suspect it is sometimes the nature of the topic. Othertimes it may be the tone the disagreement takes, rather than the nature of the discussion(from either or both sides).

It is interesting to see people say they are "walking away from a pointless disagreement,when they are just taking time to recharge and return to it.

People seem to react differently to different situations. I suspect that "road rage" is a good example of normally reasonable people acting unreasonably, and often out or charactor as to other aspects of their lives.

I often wonder:
If somewhat reasonable and logical people on Mudcat (a kind of mild natured, middle aged, and music loving lot)can't come to some type of agreement on the Israel-Palistinian issue, (without significant emotion and discord), what hope can those have who are directly and deeply involved have in reaching an agreement (outside of being forced into one)?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 01:51 PM

""Don T.

Part of my point is, let me put it this way; if each person thinks they are right, then there's not much point in discussion beyond simply announcing one's position.

Doesn't discussion and debate assume that someone/ everyone is going, at ome point, to reconsider their own position in the light of what others say?

To say otherwise seems to me to be saying none of us have anything to learn from others.""

I would say that discussion and debate take place before disagreement and that they take place in the hope (not assumption) that a change of position is possible.

You can't disagree with anyone, on any specific subject, until you know what that person's position is, and you find that out by discussion, and try to reach a consensus by debate.

Any other sequence is neither discussion, debate nor disagreement.

The logical result is that disagreement is, or should be, an agreement to differ.

The problem is that human nature often supervenes, and what follows is an unpleasant, unedifying verbal brawl in which each side attempts to bludgeon the other into submission by any means, fair or foul.

That is not discussion or debate, nor is it IMHO disagreement

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 02:10 PM

there aint no good guys, there aint no bad guys

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 02:10 PM

On your last para there, some but not all of my original suggestions can apply to both mudcatters and the I/P dispute. I've added one of John MacKenzie's.

Being uninformed.

Different psychology.

Cognitive dissonance.[Aka 'not allowing myself to see etc.]

Lack of empathy.

Refusal to consider that he/she might be wrong



One other I mentioned 'conflicting interests' may be applicable to mudcatters in far-from-obvious ways, whereas it's fundamental in the Near East problem.


Further there is a clear conflict of interests from the following

"As many have stated before, it is reasonable that people disagree.
It is the reaction to disagreement that is puzzling."


Whether or not it is reasonable to have disagreement depends on the subject.

I don't think it's reasonable to dispute that we don't live on a flat disc.

And your interest is clearly on the reactions to disputes [in which i am also interested]. However, I have a greater interest in what lies behind disputes.

As an example of a dispute where identifying the cause led to a resolution:-

There was once a disagreement at the U.N. between the American and Soviet delegates, but curiously, it wasn't clear what the problem was. Eventually, for whatever reason, they called in a linguistics expert.

He identified the cause of the dispute in one simple fact. Both delegates were using the same phrase, 'self-expanding economy', but with conflicting attitudes.

For the American, the phrase was obvious and uncontroversial and a fact of life'; for the Soviet, the phrase had no meaning because such an economy was impossible.

End of puzzlement. Someone had discovered what the 'reason for the disagreement' [copyright application pending :-) ] actually was.

Weirdly, I prefer interesting discussion to pointless argument.[Even pointful argument is better.] I'm funny like that.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 02:24 PM

Cognitive dissonance.

Such as saying that one wants to discuss why people form different opinions but actually discussing why they quarrel?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 03:33 PM

For myself, I'm unclear whether that's c.d. or differing interests.

Come to think of it, why people form different opinions, why they disagree and why they quarrel are three different, albeit overlapping subjects.

Cognitive dissonance is, I thought, about how people, once they have formed a viewpoint/opinion/Gestalt/stance, cannot perceive things that would change or affect their viewpoint/etc.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 03:48 PM

""Whether or not it is reasonable to have disagreement depends on the subject.

I don't think it's reasonable to dispute that we don't live on a flat disc.""

The subject is clearly a factor, but, other factors include the position and perspective that each player brings to the discussion. WE can't forget that there was a point in time that it was quite resonable to dispute that we do not live on a flat disc.

In suspect people involved in disputes honostly feel their positions are quite reasonable (though others may disagree). The fact that an observer does not find personal perspectives and positions as reasonable does not factor into the dispute, nor contributes to resolving it.

I suspect differing interests (conflicting) and different perspectives (such as cultural, and historic) can lead to may disputes. A percieved lack of a respect can also contribute to disputes that remain unresolved. Where economic factors are involved, it makes the disagreement can be quite complex.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: gnu
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 04:53 PM

"Doesn't discussion and debate assume that someone/ everyone is going, at ome point, to reconsider their own position in the light of what others say?"

Hahahahahaaa... and that's sad... I have never encountered more of the opposite than in this here Café. Yes, it's sad, almost unbearable at times. Makes ya wanna reach out and smack em. I am sure that if people acted thusly in a 3D social setting they would get a smack eventually or simply be shunned. Of course, "don't feed the trolls" comes to mind but sometimes ya just gotta say "Fuck off asshole."... in a polite way, if possible. (Yeah, I know... I do it far too often.)

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 05:09 PM

Ed

"I suspect people involved in disputes honestly feel their positions are quite reasonable"

What's frustrating when many of such people are unable or unwilling or both to set out their position reasonably.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 05:45 PM

Outside of the people who seem not to care, I suspect what seems "reasonable" to one person or group, may not seem as so to another person or group.

I found this article from the past interesting on how one would define reasonable:THE PHILOSOPHY OF THE REASONABLE MAN

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Crowhugger
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 10:48 PM

For a long time I thought people disagreed because they hold differing points of view based on differing priorities and life experiences. But I've got to say, now I'm starting to wonder if the main reason is simply that we need to. Humans as social creatures need to interact with each other. When we agree, that's kind of conversation stopper so there's not much opportunity to exercise our socialization genes.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Amos
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 11:22 PM

No communication
Enforced or inhibited communication
Misunderstood communication
False data
Incomplete data
Missing data including missing knowledge of probabilities and how things work
False sense of source
False sense of correct target
False sense of importance (because of false data, etc. or just personal neurosis of some kind), weighing things as more or less important than they are in the scheme of relationships
Other dramatization (acting out personal irrationality)

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 07:03 AM

Ed

Does this comment from Sarah Palin, starting at o.38 start you as reasonable, or even coherent?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk8moOxzlGQ

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 10:14 AM

autolycus,

I am not sure if politics (and politicians) and reasonableness can, or should be, logically analysed. I don't think we have the time, or that it would serve a useful purpose? I know, reporters sometimes do that,(over and over. But, that just reinforces this assessment.


:)

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 11:36 AM

I actually think that the primary reason people disagree...and then keep persisting in disagreeing...is that they are instinctively defending and boosting their own ego at the expense of some other ego. The ego is defensive in nature. It fears anything different from itself. It attempts to achieve dominance and to get attention. It attempts to win and make someone else lose. It attempts to be right and make someone else wrong.

The ego is that in you which says,

"I'm all alone here. I'm irrevocably separate from all that I see around me. Everything and everyone I see is one of three things:

1. a threat (I must defend myself against it)
2. an opportunity (to satisfy some desire of mine)
3. something that simply doesn't matter to me (so I'm not interested)"

The ego is the nasty little thing in your mind that sets you at odds with other people, your own life, and the world. It is the essential cause of all your distress, and of all your wars. It does not love, it desires, bargains, lies, cheats, evades, covers up, battles, and competes.

To overcome the ego is to find your true Self, and once you do that everything changes. Love conquers fear. The sense of separation is replaced by the sense of unity and shared values with others.

I'm not saying I've done that in its entirety. But I am certainly working on doing it, and one of the ways to do it is not to do the kneejerk typical ego reaction into "attack" mode which the ego is so fond of doing in order to momentarily strengthen itself.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 07:54 PM

List the reasons people disagree:

No.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: gnu
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 08:26 PM

I agree ~S~

Palin... haven't we established that she is gorgeously fuckable but a brain dead airhead? Need there be any more examples of same???

Although, I do enjoy looking at her with the mute button clicked. >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 09:06 PM

I wish to go on the record as "disagreeing" with gnu's last post. The whole package is important to me, and that includes the mind.
So, exclude "me" from the "we".

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 09:30 PM

gnu - Sarah Palin is undoubtedly attractive, and she's probably got some other worthy traits besides that. I hardly think she's a "brain dead airhead", but I do think that she grew up amongst a peer group who imparted to her a poorly informed and extremely deluded view of society, politics, and philosophy. Her understanding of how to organize a society most likely derives from her personal background. Her opinions, likewise, derive from the same.

If she'd been born in a Left-leaning family amongst people who thought socialism is a good thing, then she'd be out there defending those values, and the people here wouldn't be gleefully fixing their attention on her as their official "village-idiot-of-the-day".

They'd be making jokes about somebody else instead. ;-) Sarah Palin is merely convenient for we liberals and lefties, because she's so noticeable and so much fun to joke about.

Not that I'm saying she couldn't cause some major damage if she were elected president! I bet she could. But she'd just be the tip of the iceberg if she did, and there'd be massive financial interests behind her orchestrating events...and they'd be the real iceberg that sinks the ship of state.