Composing Original Tunes

Subject: Composing Original Tunes
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 09 Oct 99 - 07:27 PM

I have looked at the previous thread 'Composing Tunes' and would like to expand on this topic. I am interested in hearing from others who have composed origional tunes that may be classified by style or period of history, but are definitely innovative and unique. This question is directed towards the creation of tunes rather than a discussion on lyrics. Little Neo

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Oct 99 - 07:56 PM

This should be really intersting, eLNeo.*G* The only ones I've ever come up with were in a moment of what I would call, divine inspiration, and always after the poem which became lyrics was written. I think I am getting better at being able to "tune in" now to hear a new melody, much as I've learned to do when writing.

katlaughingwhowouldalsoliketobeknownasSageWalker

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: Chet W.
Date: 09 Oct 99 - 10:22 PM

Sage Walker it is, my friend, until you say otherwise.

One thing that happens a lot to me is that I compose a tune, only to find later that it is a nice harmony to a tune I already know. Works out OK either way. My best tunes come when I'm playing fingerstyle guitar, I guess because the harmonies (as from one note to the next) are easier to realize and play with. Then I transfer them to other instruments. Usually starts with a small piece of a tune, and if I think about it, throwing in intervals from the emerging chords, as well as well-placed accidentals, usually leads in interesting directions.

Chet

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 09 Oct 99 - 10:46 PM

I don't know about being innovative or unique. The only times I have been able to write anything have been when I have felt emotionally screwed up. I have supplied this link before but this http://www.jonbanjo.freeuk.com/jayne.mid should get to Jayne's Jig which is one of the few that I have managed to write.

For the emotionaly screwed bit, here is the tale: I fell in love with Jayne at the age of 36 and believe it or not, she is the only person that I ever had sex with. Things seemed fine and I thought that life had finally given me the break I wanted until it came out that she had a boyfriend who was in prison. He came out and beat her up for going out with me... They are back together now.

Jon

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 09 Oct 99 - 11:07 PM

Jon that is a very, very sad story. I believe Chicken Little is in charge of love. One day, out of the blue, when you least expect it, he drops the right person for you out of the sky. I'll go check out your song. Thanks Little Neo

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: _gargoyle
Date: 09 Oct 99 - 11:49 PM

To request originalsongs which "are classified by style or period of history; " AND "are definitely innovative and unique." is an oxymoron. It is the characterics, the "conventions," of the particulr period in history which alow us to catalogue the songs into a particular "style."

It is "easy" to compose within a "style," one conforms to the cultural perameters....i.e. "country" has its perameters.....to demand "unique country" is to move into the area of "cross over music" frequently from the area of gospel. Blues, has its perameters....which firmly ingrained into America's ear.

Some continually, however, none of it is "original" it all borrows heavily from the past.

Perhaps, a better wording of your question would be: What artists, have transcended the bounds of the limitations of their "musical confines" to produce a "new sound."

Within This redesignated question, I would present, in the field of Jazz, Charlie Parker, who in the 1940's separted "the chords" and rendered them back into the form of a scale....thereby, transforming future generations of Be-Bop.

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 10 Oct 99 - 12:10 AM

Gargoyle, as a side track, I have seen you refer to jazz several times and it is a form of music that I do not understand. You clearly understand it, so can you recommend a web site which offers a "beginner guide", preferably with some sound clips.

Jon

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Oct 99 - 12:13 AM

Ah, thank you, Chet. I have a thing about spaces between words, though*G*, don't want one there, so it's all one, SageWalker, your friend indeed!

Jon, that is incredibly sad for you and for Jayne; too bad she doesn't think better of herself. I really love the tune you wrote for her, though, sorry it had to come from so much pain. I used to do my best writing when extremely angry or sad; when I started writing for pay, I had to learn how to tap in without the extremes of emotions, at least sometimes. Some subjects till get me riled up.

Kat/SW

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 10 Oct 99 - 12:35 AM

Hi Gargoyle, I have a question. A person aspiring to become a musician transcends the bounds of the limitations of their own musical confines and produces what they think are "new sounds" because they have never been exposed to those sounds. Yet as you say, these sounds are not new, they are sounds that have been borrowed from the past. Would you be able to elaborate on what this person is experiencing? Grasshopper

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: Margo
Date: 10 Oct 99 - 01:47 AM

Interesting, Gargoyle. I am currently writing some songs borrowing a Scottish style. Little one, I use the lyrics to lead the music, their meter, their meaning. The songs I am writing are using someone else's poetry.

But the sea song I wrote was completely original, yet I still let the lyrics lead the music. I had one poetic phrase that I had started with which was the point of creation for the melody. Personally, I find I use the lyrics to formulate the music more often than not.

Margarita

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: _gargoyle
Date: 10 Oct 99 - 01:37 PM

For myself, I find a synergy between verse an tune; frequently one or the other will "take command" and "demand" a particular direction.

Once it has been "hacked out"... the revision, the refining, the distillation process may extend over years....put away and picked up again later...."solutions" come when occupied with something else...(generally, mowing the lawn.)

I like Robert Frost's explaination regarding his poetry...."the pleasure of taking pains."

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: j0_77
Date: 10 Oct 99 - 02:24 PM

Little Neophyte try this, imagine a little black smokey train struggling to climb a grade - try to hear the sound of the engine and the rattle of the cars it hauls. See that plume of smoke rocket up into the air, that's like the stuff that could come out of a a composer's ears while creating a 'new' piece.

The answer is the question :)

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: Margo
Date: 10 Oct 99 - 02:28 PM

Thanks for the Frost, Gargoyle. I like that. Sounds like we do the same thing...

Margarita

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: emily rain
Date: 10 Oct 99 - 02:39 PM

Garg, Paddy Keenan had something to say which echoes your earlier comment. He was complaining about fans/friends who would come to him after he played an original tune, and if it was in trad Irish style they would say: "That's a great tune! But doesn't it sound familiar? Isn't it a lot like [insert tune title here]?" If the tune was different from any others in existence they would say: "That's a great tune! But it doesn't sound very Irish, does it now?"

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: j0_77
Date: 10 Oct 99 - 03:01 PM

It is almost impossible to 'insert' a new tune into Irish trad since all the best themes are already taken, centuries of fiddlers/whistlers etc working different scales etc., You may like to read a little on this. For example Miss Mc Cloud's Reel - a fiddle tune - got it's 1 st few bars from a string crossing excercise which long predates the Reel as a folk dance.

Similar topic is why is Trad Jazz not popular as it used be? Why is modern jazz 'Modern' Why is Rap so popular? Why is Classical Music so errrr snooty? Why are classical musicians so boring? Why is Choir music so 'Conservative' Why is Celtic music so trendy? What is a social trend? How do current events interact with popular taste? Why are Mudcateers so enthusiastic about folk?

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Oct 99 - 06:58 PM

Why generalise?

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: MandolinPaul
Date: 10 Oct 99 - 07:59 PM

When it really comes down to it, Gargoyle, there ain't such thing as an original song. Those of us who live in the western world only have twelve notes to choose from.

Admittedly, when variables such as rhythm and lyrics are included, the number of possible combinations increase significantly, but there is definitely a finite number of songs.

The majority of songwriting is just interpretation. None of us can really hope for originality.

Paul

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: j0_77
Date: 10 Oct 99 - 08:25 PM

Itz a musical forum not yahoo chat, Kat that's why.

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Oct 99 - 08:40 PM

I guess I should have said more, Jo. I know a lot of classical musicians who are not boring and a lot of classical music which isn't snooty.

Paul, while we may only have 12 notes, the permutations of those notes are infinite. One could say, why write any poems, essays, etc, since we only have 26 letters in the english alphabet? Both concepts seem terribly limiting and defeating.

Many times one speaks of the originality or particular "sound" a certain composer, songwriter,or singer achieves, so that one knows instantly who the piece of music was written or sung by. Perhaps the singer is interpreting, but IMHO, the composer or songwriter has written with a unique voice. If this were not attainable, why would anyone ever try to write another piece of music?

kat

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 10 Oct 99 - 10:10 PM

Interesting comments about the permutations. Out of all the variables, how many patterns are there that can be considered to be musical or fit in to a particular style?

For the fun of it, I have just typed the first 8 bars on any old nonsense that entered in to my head keeping to the same note length and put it at http://www.jonbanjo.freeuk.com/TEST.MID.

Could this really be music?

Jon

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Oct 99 - 11:10 PM

Nice illustration, Jon. Thank you. While I did speak of the permutations, I personally would not call that music. This gets into a lot of the stuff my brother was talking about in the early 80's, when we saw what we considered the spiritual bankruptcy of classical music. Most of it sounded as though the notes had been fed into a computer which spewed out atonal crap ad infinitum, which, in some cases, is exactly what was done.

So, again, I guess I should have said a bit more. While there are an infinite number of permustations, without the input of *heart & soul*, they could end up sounding very mechanical, atonal, and not what I would consider music.

kat

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Oct 99 - 12:10 AM

Kat, I agree wholeheartedly that my example was not music and when I first played it back, my first thoughts were of some modern classical pieces that I have heard. I hadn't realised that some of it had literally been churned out a computer but in a way, I am pleased to know that some of the crap (IMO) that I have heard might not have been produced by a human being.

Assuming that we all can agree that some sequences of notes simply are not music: What makes one sequence acceptable to our ears and another complete and utter nonsense?

How much of this is down to what we are used to hearing? Chineese music for example sounds completely alien to me but it must be enjoyed by the people living there.

Jon

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: _gargoyle
Date: 11 Oct 99 - 12:17 AM

I readily admit....I PLAGERIZE!!!! and seldom do I give "credit."

A couple of my personal/best/favorites were drawn from popular "hits".....however, no one has linked them back to the orginal tunes.....after two years of par-mutations few would recognize the main threads of....."If You Want To Destroy This Sweater" or Joplin's "I Got A Brand New Pair of Roller Skates." Yet, the BASIC chord progression is similar.

Frequently,,,,,after working on a "theme" the variation,,,,,gives way to variation,......gives way to variation....give way to variation and anyone is "hard pressed" to find any portion of the original composition in the final rendering.

Good Lord help me.....I have "sic'd" the copyright police down on legitimate composeurs....from every "wanna-be" neo-phyte that just discovered I,IV,V this past week....and considers their discovery, "original."

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: j0_77
Date: 11 Oct 99 - 12:26 AM

Good point Jon without knowing what Chinese music sounds like in China. The local weather and altitude etc have a great effect on what it sounds like. I believe it may be reklated to how sounds react to differnt kinds of air or water. Perhaps one pitch carries faster to another? Just a thought.

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: MandolinPaul
Date: 11 Oct 99 - 09:31 AM

Kat: I still maintain that there is some finite number of songs, albeit an extremely large number. Let's take a bar of 4/4 time music. If you are going to fill it with just quarter notes, the number of possible combinations =

12 x 12 x 12 x 12 = 20736

That's really not so many. Even when you start to add different kinds of notes to fill that four beats, while the number becomes ridiculously high, it is still a number. When you look at the centuries upon centuries upon millenia that people have been writing, singing, playing, even humming tunes. I think the mathematics are truly against any of us being original. So why would we even try to write another piece of music? I do it because I like it.


Hey Jon: I agree that that doesn't sound like music to me, but it could be a cultural thing. I've heard that some African countries differentiate their sounds by quarter-tone, instead of semi-tone; hence the usage of the "blue" notes on the third and seventh in the blues. Your creation doesn't sound like music to us because of our standards of chord structure. But hey...I could've sworn that I heard that on an old Charlie Parker record.


Gargoyle: I couldn't agree more. There's been many a time that I've written a song, then realized that it sounded exactly like one of my favourites. Change an interval here, a note or two there, a rhythm someplace else, and Praise Jesus! An original composition!

Paul

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: Margo
Date: 11 Oct 99 - 02:23 PM

Ah Jon! Yes, you could call it music, ala Schoenberg. I can't stand Schoenberg! I'll take I, IV, V anyday! Margarita

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 11 Oct 99 - 02:56 PM

Who else but jimmi Hendrix? And also the Beatles changed the way music was percieved, heard and interpreted for and by future generations, with the chord progressions and turn-arounds, lead licks and chops that became essential parts of their music. And of course, Pete Seeger, Ewan McColl, and Woody Guthrie for their use of language? Well thats a start. Cheers.

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: _gargoyle
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 08:38 PM

And interesting quote from an interesting person:

"Everything must have a beginning, to speak in Sanchean phrase; and that beginning must be linked to something that went before. The Hindus give the world an elephant to support it, but they make the elephant stand upon a tortoise. Invention, it must be humbly admitted, does not consist in creating out of void, but out of chaos; the materials must, in the first place, be afforded, it can give form to dark, shapeless substances but cannot bring into being the substance itself, In all matters of discovery and invention, even of those that appertain to the immagination, we are continually reminded of the story of Columbus and his egg. Invention consists in the capacity of seizing on the capabilities of a subject and in the power of moulding and fashioning ideas suggested to it."

From the author of Frankenstein, Mary W. Shelley, London, October 15, 1831.....her point of view is not to be taken lightly, she communed with two of the greatest poets of her century, Shelly and Byron.

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: Bert
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 08:43 PM

I steal mine. Sometimes I know where from and sometimes I don't.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: sophocleese
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 12:13 AM

I'm always irritated if I know that I've stolen something from somewhere but I can't figure out exactly where. Once I remember where that particular phrase is from then I can relax because I know how mine differs as well. Admittedly I haven't written much, but I do what I can when I want to.

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 12:48 AM

I don't know about stealing as such but it seems to me that say with Irish dance music for example, one of the skills in writing a good tune is to come up with something that sounds sort of familiar but is still different.

Jon

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: Bob Landry
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 01:52 PM

I've often written new words to old songs for pure personal enjoyment. I relied on existing tunes written by others and never played them for monetary gain. Hence, no foul, no harm. I'm now ready to go beyond that level. There is a concept developing in my head for a series of songs, all linked to and revolving around a particular theme. The story lines are beginning to gel and I'm confident I can write lyrics that will make sense ... to me, at least.. The problem is the music. I can't compose music without blatently ripping off the work of others. I don't know enough musical theory and don't have the time to learn what I need to know. One possible solution I've thought about is to find someone with good theoretical skills and the ability to understand what I'm trying to get across to help me write original music and flesh it out. How easy, or how difficult is it to find the right musical collaborator? Or are there other solutions to this type of dilemma?

Bob

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: Bert
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 02:02 PM

Bob, my musical ability is poor so, when I recognise that I have stolen a tune, and I don't want it to be known I change it here and there until it sounds sufficiently different.

My biggest problem arises when I don't know where the tune comes from. It's just there, and after I've played it a few times it sounds so familiar that I'm scared that someone will recognise it.

Then there are tunes that it's OK to use. How many songs are there that use Villikins and his Dinah? No one seems to mind.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: emily rain
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 03:21 PM

many people have said that doing art is merely creating something you want to see. if the world has not provided it for you, then you have to provide it for yourself.

if we accept that "true" originality within a western scale is no longer possible because of the centuries it's been in use, that doesn't take into account the thousands of millions of compositions that have been lost, forgotten, or otherwise failed to be exposed. if those tunes are unknowingly re-invented (or approximated) by a modern composer, i would assert that s/he is still exercising full creativity.

and if you're a tune-o-phile and know every celtic tune in the world, but still haven't seen one that combines this element with that, and is played at this tempo with these ornaments, then writing that tune is still an act of creativity, and is still art to me.

and if two people have the same wonderful idea at the same time, the coincidence doesn't diminish the genius of either.

if our individual creativity is a part of some vast repeating pattern, we needn't feel that our own contribution is somehow less important. rather, we should feel honored that we can participate.

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: j0_77
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 08:30 PM

Kat - just some questions to shake the ole brain about, get it working gain. Yup there are some really interesting sounds there. :0)

True emily - Recall the early folk recordings and how they eveolved over the years - there were lots of original songs and they were nice to play sing or listen to. So it ain't that hard, as a matter of fact there is so much territory out there especially in American folk that it is hard to know where to start.

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 09:24 PM

Jo77- no problem.:-)

Bob- you don't have to know music theory just to get a melody and chords down. My brother is a musical genius, child prodigy, etc. who writes complete (tonal!)symphonies, orchestration and all, in one draft, BUT, even though I played classical piano & violin, I do not know much of anything when it comes to theory, yet when I came up with the original tune to my song "That's Not My COlorado" and a couple of others, he was blown away and even a little envious. My ear and my heart have had incredible training in music; I believe that is what allowed me to come up with those tunes. I am sure yours are the same way.

As far as someone to actually notate the music for you, well I don't think you'd have too much trouble finding someone here. If you do, let me know, my brother also is the typical "starving artist".**BG**

You just do your tunes...it'll happen for you.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 09:38 PM

Thanks Emily. Your comment has help answer an earlier question I had on this thread. When I create a piece of music I'm not too concerned if it has been created before. I'm so proud of it. My music is inspired by passion and my feelings. If someone has created it before me, I can only hope they felt as joyful as I. Little Neo

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: _gargoyle
Date: 14 Oct 99 - 10:04 PM

Many years ago...a tune haunted me....

It repeated inside my brain...over and over....it was beguiling....for weeks I added lyrics...never writing them down,,,but adding and adding....

It Was Beautiful!!!!!

And then months later, after completion,..... on a "Muzak" elevator, I heard "My Tune" and realized that I had "stollen it" (unsuccesfully, since it never was sold) from the group "AirSupply."

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 02:05 AM

Bob,

If you want some melodic material, why not listen to some of the classical composers, particularly the romantics, who used a lot of folk melodies--

It isn't so hard as it sounds--the chord changes are often pretty straight forward--I once played in a show where we snatched a suite from Brahms and de-orchestrated for fiddle, a pennywhistle and a guitar--If you'd been there, you could have written some lyrics(God knows, the show needed all the help it could get!!)

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: Chet W.
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 07:06 AM

There are so many songs and melodies whose copyrights are out of date, if they ever had them, that they are now Public Domain and can be freely used. A lot of composers, including Brahms, did this all the time, so I say, Do it!

Chet

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 03:26 PM

Roy Harris, the classical composer, also did this with a lot of American folk tunes. My brother studied privately with him, There is one piano suite in particular, I can't remember the name of it, but anyway, it has several including Black is the colour of my true love's hair.

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: sophocleese
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 03:59 PM

Gargoyle, I was once captured by a phrase. I found words from an old poem to go with it. It sounded like something from the seventeen hundreds. Finally I realized where I had heard it before; Deep Purple "Smoke on the Water". I laughed at myself for week. You know, change the instrumentation and a little of the timing and its a whole new sound. There's a tune that I've written two sets of words to now I'm just waiting for the shoe to drop on and I'll know where I got it from. I kind of like it but I'm afraid to sing it in public because I don't want to face the "I recognize that its ..."

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 06:35 PM

Paul S. Sorry it's taken me a couple of days to get back to you. Had to ask my brother about this. He did some research into the permutation thing a few years ago and found that Leonard Bernstein was also interested in such things. Had a mathematician friend of his work up the numbers. While using the twelve tones, one melody line only, no harmony, reached a number of almost infinity, by adding a second or harmonising line, it went beyond infinity to something the mathematicians call aleph nul. So, while your "large number" may be right, as close to infinity as can be; there can be endless permutations which include harmony. He didn't have his reference books handy, but if you want more info and can't find it on the nect, I will get it from him, soon.

kat

Subject: RE: Composing Original Tunes
From: emily rain
Date: 15 Oct 99 - 08:40 PM

neato!