BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns

Subject: BS: The Vatican and The Nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 04:52 AM

There have been two Vatican investigations of American nuns in the last couple of years. One was an "Apostolic Visitation" that turned out to be reasonably positive. The other was an investigation of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious. As the New York Times reported April 18, the Vatican criticized the nuns "for focusing its work too much on poverty and economic injustice, while keeping "silent" on abortion and same-sex marriage."

So far, the nuns have been silent in response to the Vatican document. This page says the LCWR will meet May 29-June 1 to discuss the Vatican document. I can see those monsignori in the Vatican squirming, not knowing what to do with this silence from the nuns. In the meantime, support for the nuns seems to be overwhelming. Sojourners Magazine is typical of the many publications that have come out in support of the Good Sisters.

This cartoon has been appearing in newspapers this week. It depicts four nuns, in full habit, surrounding Barack Obama's limousine. I have to say that I don't really know what the cartoon refers to - and I'd appreciate it if somebody could explain it to me. I suppose it has something to do with the recent Secret Service scandal, but I'm not sure where the nuns fit in. Nonetheless, their strength in silence toward the Vatican oppression, may indeed show that nuns might make a darn good Secret Service protection unit.

-Joe Offer, Mercy Associate, Sisters of Mercy of the Americas-

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 05:02 AM

I see this as another regrettable feature in the senior catholic hierarchy.

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 05:30 AM

Well, yes, it is indeed regrettable that the "old boys" don't get it. On the other hand, it is heartening that large numbers of nuns have chosen to stand up to the old boys. Every organization has a political process, and every organization has extremists on one side or another who don't serve the common good.

Richard may see this all as regrettable - and I think he implies that it is inevitable. I see it as a situation that demands change. I'm rooting for the nuns. Maybe, at long last, they'll win.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 05:47 AM

I have known many RC nuns, and made retreats with them, particularly the IBVM and Carmelites. As I understand it (and I'm C of E, not Catholic) all religious are bound by Obedience, to their immediate Superior, the Superior General, their Bishop, and ultimately to Rome and The Holy Father himself. (and of course to God) Therefore I can't see how they can possibly refuse to toe the line as laid down by Rome. By flouting any rule or directive, they are in flagrant breach of the vows made at their Profession. No matter what a nun's opinion may secretly be, she is obliged to obey whatever the Vatican may choose to lay down as a Rule. Even by demonstrating in a silent insubordination, the nuns are showing disobedience. And (as I understood it from the nuns I met) even disagreeing in ones head is sinful and should be dealt with by prayer and vigilance.

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: eddie1
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 05:48 AM

This is not just in the Catholic Church - there is an ongoing battle in the Church of England re Women Bishops! Watch this space!

Last year I had the honour and pleasure of attending a conference on "Women in Islam". On another tack, I found it interesting that the chair and one member of the panel were Indian, female, Muslim and both wearing open-neck blouses and had long, flowing hair. Two members of the panel were English, female, converts to Islam and both wearing headscarves and coats buttoned up to the neck!

The last member of the panel was male, Indian and Muslim.

The discussion got quickly round to the role of women in the mosque and the lonely male panel member got equally quickly onto the immense value of work done by women out in the community - this was as important as what happened inside the mosque, handled of course by men. Nada, nada, nada! Watch this space too!

It's a big world out there and it's inhabited by men - and women!

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 05:51 AM

It made it on to the BBC news a few days ago too, Joe. I wish them luck.

I think you all are lucky over there that you're several thousand miles further from the Vatican than the UK. I frequently don't recognise the fairly forward looking and freethinking church you obviously inhabit.

Speaking as one who bailed out when things stopped moving forward about 20 years ago, and started lurching back to the C19. Present management definitely included.

Paws

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 05:56 AM

Well, Eliza, I think that many women religious have redefined their vow of obedience. They now see it as obedience to the common good of their religious community, and to their calling from God. Very few see it as a requirement to obey the hierarchical structure, especially when the hierarchy is wrong. I work very closely with three different orders of women religious (nuns, if you will). They are intelligent, wonderful, powerful women who are living life exactly as they want to live - in the service of God's people, living in community with women they have known and loved for decades. They're not going to let go of that and go back to a life of blind obedience.

This may be a very important move toward redefinition of the role of authority in the Catholic Church.

In my life as a Catholic, "obedience" and "authority" have no relevance whatsoever. Many Catholics are coming to share my view.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 06:03 AM

I don't personally think one can take a vow of 'Obedience' and then proceed to redefine what one is prepared to obey. Social mores and fashions come and go, and the Catholic Church has usually upheld the traditional, long-held tenets as much as possible. I'm not by any means stating my own personal views on,say, abortion or same-sex marriages. (Actually I'm anti-abortion and pro-gay marriage, also pro-contraception.) I totally agree that reforms are due. But the position of a nun (or male religious) is quite clearly defined, and not in any way the same as that of a lay person.

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 06:06 AM

Well, Eliza, the nuns took Vatican II seriously and they DID reform. Their vows have always been to their communities and to the Rule which governs each community, not to the Pope or the hierarchy. And their communities really mean something to them - bishops and popes mean far less. Their Rules are more a charism, a philosophy of life, than a code of regulations. The Rule for my community, the Sisters of Mercy, is the the Corporal Works of Mercy - feeding the hungry and welcoming the stranger, that sort of thing.
My boss, Sr. Judy, runs a center that serves 400 women a day. She answers to our clients, our volunteers, our donors, our board of directors, and to her religious community. She has neither the time nor the inclination to deal with bishops and hierarchy. And almost every nun I know is the same, living a life of complete freedom, devoted only to doing what they believe is right and good. They're also the happiest people I know.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Penny S.
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 07:15 AM

I could join that. When considering where to go after our particular congregation of Congregationalists effectively excommunicated my mother (a procedure not technically part of the denomination description) it was the obedience to the Pope that prevented me even considering anything Roman.

I wonder where the Spirit is.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 08:59 AM

Because you can get people all stirred up about abortion and same-sex marriage, and, like the recent changes to the rubrics, send up smoke screens in an attempt to hide the internal rot like pedophilia.

It's harder to get folks stirred up about social injustice and poverty, even if they are the root causes of so much that's wrong.

The Curia is completely out of touch with the Church; the nuns, working directly with the people who make up the Church, are not.

Vatican City has one or two or a thousand priorities dead wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Megan L
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 09:22 AM

The leaders of most churches are men, therefore human, therefore fallible. If these nuns are being moved to their action by their God then surely obedience to their God must supersede obedience to ANY human whether the leader of their partiqular faith or not.

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 09:33 AM

I have admired and cherished very much all the nuns I have known over the years. Some of them were quite feisty and militant, and all of them were people I'd want to emulate. But (and please forgive me for talking out of turn, as I'm not a Catholic, so my comments are only from the outside looking in, so to speak) I thought that all catholics must look to the Pope for their guidance and theological rule. As all RC nuns are Catholics, surely they too must do as the Pope tells them? (Have to say, I also know well many C of E nuns, eg Community of All Hallows, and they too have quite militant and forward-looking ideas. But the C of E is a bit hesitant to come down heavily on many current issues. I do wish they'd budge on same-sex marriage and women Bishops though!) In case you haven't already guessed, I long considered becoming a nun, and nearly did!

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 11:03 AM

Interestingly I know some active Moslems who choose which rules to obey - some being active homosexuals and some drinking alcohol.

And I once took an Indian executive producer of a film to lunch at Simpsons in the Strand and she must have seen my expression change when she ordered the roast beef - for she grinned, gave that little hand gesture with both hands together, and said "I am not a very good Hindu".

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 11:10 AM

Regarding the cartoon: it's the April 23 cartoon from POLITICO's Matt Wuerker. He doesn't offer any caption, leaving it to the reader, so you might have to study his prior work to get what his slant is. It looks like he does about two cartoons a week, so you could parse out the timing, too.

For me, I see it as showing nuns to be tough and secure - a better bet than the current staff. I like it, given the headlines (Vatican criticism of American nuns and Secret Service pecadillos). Don't have much personal experience with nuns, myself.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 11:20 AM

Eliza,
I understand your point. This will be an interesting situation to watch since refusal to "obey" the pope could mean that these religious women will go off on their own.
The Catholic church in the US is no longer the huge power it was in the 50s. Churches and schools are closing. Money is tight. Scandals have rocked its foundations. I believe (my opinion) that many if not most Catholics make their moral decisions, eg birth control, without regard to the Church's official policy. I know many practicing Catholics who have had abortions.
Nuns in the 50s (my personal experience) turned the other way while priests molested boys. That resentment is part of the need to make decisions based on conscience rather than the dictates of a fallible even sinful bishop.Nuns today are college educated have matured in a society where women are more powerful. Different mind set.
M

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: GUEST,Brendan
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 11:45 AM

The Christian community has undergone a number of divisions over the last two thousand years and nearly all of them had an element of forward thinkers versus traditionalists (I accept that this may not apply to the Great Schism).
I suspect that the issue of Vatican control will not go away - it may be that the traditionalist pope currently in place will be the cause of more overt resistance to Vatican control, not less.
The nuns that Joe talks about sound like the kind of church of which I want to be a part. I am a practising Catholic but sometimes feel that I am hanging on by my fingertips because the authoritarian, heavily hierarchical church and the vast amount of wealth held by the Vatican seem to be a long way from the Jesus of the Gospels.

Forgive me if anyone feels I've gone off thread - just say so and I'll shut up!

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Penny S.
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 11:54 AM

I can't remember where I heard recently - probably the BBC Radio 4 Sunday programme - someone saying that male hierarchies have had no experience of educated women, and simply have no understanding of how to deal with them*. I think it was in discussion of this very issue. (Ever since they shifted the programme from 8:10 to 7:10 on sunday morning I have often missed details through dropping back into sleep.)

In the Middle Ages, they dealt with the problem of the highly educated nuns such as Hild and Hildegard by inhibiting the availability of education to the religious communities. I somehow suspect this will not be an option this time.

*Surely exactly the same way as dealing with educated male human beings.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 12:05 PM

Sinsull, you're quite right of course, educated and enlightened women (men too) are not so easily persuaded to relinquish all powers over their own conscience. And total subservience to an individual (or system) ends when one strongly doubts either their moral basis or even their integrity. That was one of the reasons I finally decided not to become either a Catholic or a nun. I so much valued my freedom to think and act as I saw fit, according to my understanding of God, that I couldn't in all conscience surrender that to any Organisation or single human being (eg the Pope) I have issues even now with my own Church, and its stand over women Bishops and gay marriage. I used to say that I'm a Church of One, the 'Eliza' Church! But I suspect we all are members of Churches of One, in that we must each act within our own moral mindset.

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: gnu
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 03:04 PM

Well and wisely said, Megan L.

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 03:35 PM

As a friend working at a Catholic college said, "I didn't leave my Church; my Church left me."

The Catholic Church has lost most or all influence in the US, Ireland, Germany, the Netherlands, Italy, Canada, France...that come to mind right now. And it's the fault of the Church leaders, who turned away from problems, refused to discuss matters except among the priests, and yearn for a day when the Mass is again in Latin and the good Father O'Flynn is the spiritual, political, and lay Voice Of His Community.

But the Church made a mistake, at least in the US, beginning in the 19th Century: they opened schools and colleges and taught us to think.

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 04:43 PM

Well they certainly did not teach me to think. Any thought that sprung from my head was either heresy or blasphemy. But nevertheless I too yearn for the Latin Mass, the pretty songs, the candles, the frankinsense and a few Father O'Flynns and Sister Anna Marys who were great people...the church did not need to turn the Mass around or sing ugly songs..it needed to get sensible and non-cruel about birth control and divorce. And who raised some of those creepy men? Creepy mothers who were themselves caught in a very dysfunctional situation. mg

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 04:47 PM

Huge organizations don't operate in straight lines. If you think any government works through perfectly democratic processes (or perfectly following the processes of a republican form of government), you're wrong. Most of the work gets done by horse trading. If you think the Catholic Church operates as an absolute papal monarchy where everyone obeys the pope, you're wrong. There are times when the Vatican attempts to operate under the illusion of being an absolute papal monarchy, but the processes spelled out in Canon Law are far more democratic - but democracy in the Catholic Church is an illusion, too.

The power in the Catholic Church rests in credibility. I will admit that the illusion of a "Supreme Pontiff" holds a lot of credibility, but that credibility has been severely damaged in the recent and ongoing child molestation scandals. Yes, the nuns kept quiet and subservient in the old days, but many of them have been playing a different tune for four decades now - they have changed themselves into powerful, independent, happy women who do amazing things to serve the needs of the people. And as a result, their credibility is phenomenal - and that gives them a lot of power in the Catholic Church.

What gives the nuns such credibility is that they have devoted their efforts to service, not to condemning the misdeeds of others. They really can't do any good pointing fingers at homosexuals or women who get abortions - those people have to make their own decisions. The nuns have learned that they can work miracles by devoting their lives to service, and that is exactly what they have done. In the process, they have made themselves into some of the most joyful and fulfilled and interesting people on earth.

So, what we're watching now is a game of chess. The Vatican gave its document to the press last week, even before the nuns received their copy. After that, the press was waiting for the nuns to respond. How did the nuns respond? Well, first they responded with silence. Then, after about a week, they quietly announced that they will meet May 29-June 1 to discuss the Vatican document.

According to Canon Law, the principle of the operation of all aspects of the Catholic Church is "collegiality" - members meeting as colleagues to arrive at a consensus, not a majority vote. Even the Pope is supposed to be "primus inter pares," first among equals. The nuns are wisely adhering to a strict practice of collegiality, exactly as spelled out in Canon Law - and they're taking their sweet time about it and making the old men squirm.

By the way, most communities of women religious have operated under the principles of collegiality for the last forty years, and they have learned how to make the process work. To my mind, they are a perfect model of how the principles of collegiality can work, and how these principles can transform the Catholic Church so it can operate credibly in this post-modern world.

This is a very slow-moving chess game we're watching. The next move will take place about the first of June, although there may be a few distractions in between. So far, I think the nuns are playing the game very well.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: gnu
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 05:28 PM

When I take my evening walk, at the end of my dead end street, I can Sister Sarah's store. I went in once and didn't spend much time in there. There weren't any religious things... just a lot of "things" that buzzed and whirred and looked "uncomfortable" to me. Apparently, Sister Sarah is a slut. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Jesus and her woulda got along fine.

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 06:34 PM

Yes, all of that is true, Joe.

But your parishioner, the person in the pews, sees a hierarchy with one dude at the top who has stated, unequivocally, that he can be infallible.   Yes, yes, I know -- but but say you're infallible often enough and an encyclical becomes taken as ex cathedra.

Moreover, your person in the pews wants change and s/he wants it now. "Our diocese has been racked by pedophiles, the bishop has been doing nothing except going to meetings, we've been sued for millions, they're closing churches, and we have no priests coming along. Why can't we CHANGE, ferchissakes???" and change might well come along, eventually, but by then it's too little and too late.

You're dead on about the nuns. I know one in particular quite well -- best friend of my wife's from high school on -- and if you try to tell her "NO!" you'll be wasting your breath because she'll find a way to do it anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 07:11 PM

As I said - it will be interesting to watch. I predict a break from Rome for some of the nuns who are actively involved in community work and will not be forced behind convent walls.

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 08:05 PM

They can team up with some of the female priests, who are legitimately ordained by proper although probably not in the pope's good graces bishops. mg

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 09:06 PM

You mean the women the Vatican ordained in Eastern Europe back in the 1980s?

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 09:20 PM

I don't know about them...I am not passionate about women priests except for one situation..and that is young girls having to go to confession to males..young boys as well as we know..it is wierd when you think about it and there is no supervision by definition as you would have in a doctor's office or wherever..not that I suspect anything physical, although it has undoubtedly happened..but it is creepy..mg

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 03:48 AM

Rapparee says: "hierarchy with one dude at the top who has stated, unequivocally, that he can be infallible."

Show me one instance, just one, where a pope has said he was infallible. You won't find any. Certain statements of the Pope on "matters of faith or morals" can be declared infallible if certain very rigid criteria are met. There has been only one clearly infallible statement made since the doctrine of infallibility was declared in the 1870s. People think the Pope is infallible (some think his every word is infallible and must be obeyed without question), but you won't find that statement anywhere in official Catholic teaching.

Same with what I said about collegiality as opposed to people's illusion of an absolute papal monarchy. It's in the books - all people have to do is read. The Catechism of the Catholic Church goes into all that in detail.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 04:29 AM

It's difficult to initiate change in a well-established Church without risking schism. In the C of E, the issue of gay marriage and women Bishops has caused many African and Indian branches of the Church to threaten to break away. I prefer the idea of a united Church where, under a broad umbrella, most views and standpoints can be accommodated. Flexibility and tolerance are key. But as in all the major religions, the tenets of a powerful few control and constrict the spiritual life of many.

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 04:51 AM

Well, Eliza, our umbrellas would be a lot broader if we could only learn that we can't control how other people think and act, and we shouldn't try. We need to be of service to each other, not sit in judgment of others.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 04:57 AM

I quite agree, Joe. I try in a humble way to imagine what Jesus would say or do. I don't see Him as a judgmental, condemnatory figure. He always seemed loving, understanding and advisory rather than dogmatically severe. His umbrella would be absolutely gigantic, with room under it for the entire world! Very very few folk are completely wicked, and as for the rest of us, we don't need to be harried and dominated by arrogant Leaders. As the nuns I've known would say, "Pray! Pray! Pray!"

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Monique
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 05:12 AM

About leaders causing people to leave their Church, though it's slightly different Leaving Amish Paradise. Tell me about power...

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 06:35 AM

Wonder if anybody is following the emerging issue of the clampdown on the writings of rebel priests - bring back the "index" I say!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 11:42 AM

9. Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the Christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable.

So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.

Given at Rome in public session, solemnly held in the Vatican Basilica in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and seventy, on the eighteenth day of July, in the twenty-fifth year of Our Pontificate.
             -- First Vatican Council, Session 4: 18 July 1870,
             First dogmatic constitution on the Church of Christ

"I am infallible because I say so." It's an ugly, ugly story.

Go read August Hasler's "How the Pope Became Infallible: Pius IX and the Politics of Persuasion" (1981)." Hasler, by the way, had approved access to the Vatican archives.

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 12:28 PM

Óscar Arnulfo Romero y Galdámez: there IS life after death as the action of these nuns proves.

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 01:55 PM

I note two things about that infallible document.,

One, it arrogates to the Pontiff the right to dictate to all Christians. Two, it specifically excludes the punishment of anathema from being applied to women.

Badly drafted, that.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 02:23 PM

Joe, I read the cartoon is an appeal against authoritarianism. Obama shows confusion on this point particularly when it comes to same-sex marriage. I see the nuns as showing Obama what's going on in the controversy between the nuns and the Vatican.

I see no reason why Catholic priests or nuns shouldn't marry or nuns become part of the priesthood.

Obama is doing his usual "playing it safe" role. The nuns are trying to widen his views.

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 03:09 PM

I gotta admit, Rapparee, that I did not know that the original doctrine of infallibility was worded to apply to the Pope instead of to his words. Nonetheless, note that it is qualified and restricted to ex cathedra (from the chair) statements "defining doctrine concerning faith or morals." Even though it came from the megalomaniacal Pius IX,* infallibility is restricted to doctrine of the highest level and does not apply to any old thing the Pope says. Unfortunately, an awful lot of people understand it as applying to every time the Pope opens his mouth.

Also, note that the First Vatican Council statement on papal infallibility is part of a larger body of teaching on church doctrine, which places limits on what doctrines can be considered inerrant. The Wikipedia article on papal infallibility refers to another restriction I was taught in the seminary:

The infallible teachings of the Pope must be based on, or at least not contradict, Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scripture

I can't find an original source for that.

The current teaching is in Paragraph 891 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

891 "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.... the infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council. When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed," and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith." This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself. (the footnotes refer back to the document Rapparee quoted from the first Vatican Council).

Penny, you're right that the document claims the Pope is "shepherd and teacher of all Christians." I don't get how you can say that it excludes the punishment of anathema from being applied to women - are you drawing that from "let him be anathema"? The original Latin document is "anathema sit" - with no gender specification.


*Perhaps Pius IX had some justification for his apparent megalomania. The same year, 1870, he lost control of the Papal States and became "prisoner of the Vatican" in self-imposed exclusion. His successors eventually became ruler of a country the size of a large golf course (110 acres). No wonder the poor guy felt threatened....

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 04:05 PM

I have to say, I hate it when I get nudged into discussing religion from a legalistic and doctrinal standpoint. Certainly, laws and doctrines are part of any church, just as laws are part of every society.

However, most of us don't spend our lives viewing things from a legal perspective. It's only the "jailhouse lawyers" who do that. I know some ultraconservative Catholics who get all bound up in the rules and regulations, but most of us aren't like that. For most of us, religious faith isn't about laws. That's just not how normal people live life.

I go to church to worship God and love my neighbor. Rules have very little to do with my life as a religious person.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 05:13 PM

Joe, only joking. I suspected the Latin was more inclusive. And I had an idea that from the Vatican point of view, schism is irrelevant to the belief in papal leadership, because of odd things said about England returning to the fold from time to time. As if it were one united bloc which would move en masse into the ordinariat.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 05:39 PM

I think the nuns are providing security for Obama -- it may be related to the birth control thing? I don't get it either. Unless he is doing them a favor of some kind.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 08:36 PM

Tell ya what;it may be true that the pope claims infallibility only under very limited circumstances. But I think that the concept that anyone can make an infallible statement about religious doctrine, under any circumstances, is every bit as defensible as young earth creationism.

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 08:45 PM

I'd tend to agree, frogprince. As I said, my religious life has little to do with doctrine or regulations. "Authority" has very little relevance to me - same goes with "infallibility."

Amos, in general, I think the nuns don't care at all about birth control [no wisecracks, please]. I'm really surprised that birth control arose as an issue in recent months. In general, you won't hear anything about birth control in Catholic churches - despite the official policy. That's the way things work in the Catholic Church - if there's an official policy that's stupid, nobody talks about it; and then it disappears from the books a hundred years later and people say, "we never taught that." Seems like a strange thing to do, but it saves the effort of arguing with those who will mindlessly fight to preserve anything that once was official policy.


-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 09:37 PM

Yup, Joe's right on that one. People pretty much ignore it and it goes away.

There are lots of things like that. Matthew 18:18 (NIV):

I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

So once upon a time the Catholic Church said, "Eating meat on Fridays is a mortal sin (usually, there are certain exceptions)." Then, a few years back, they changed the rules and you only have to fast during Lent and at specified other times. My very own brother, when he was studying for the deaconate (!), asked the instructors, "So, what happened to all those people who ate meat on Fridays and committed a mortal sin, which sent them straight to Hell? Did they get forgiven and pulled up to Heaven?" And you know what? He never did enter the permanent deaconate.

Joe, I was raised in the quibbling, legalistic educational system of the Catholic Church, from kindergarten through undergraduate work. I have 21 semester hours of theology and the same of philosophy, not the mention 12 years of "religion" (including the Revised Baltimore Cathecism). Nowadays I don't worry if there's enough meat in Mcdonald's hamburger to break the rule of Friday abstinence -- I asked the Pastor things like "So, if JC died to save all of us, aren't we awfully ungrateful if we don't sin because it makes His whole sacrifice pointless?" The Pastor says I'm smart enough to be a heretic and several times he's invited me to an auto-da-fe.

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 04:56 AM

All these doctrinal and legal quibblings sound to me so much like the same goings-on of the Scribes and Pharisees, whom Jesus frequently criticised as missing the point entirely. As Joe says, one practises ones faith to 1) love God and 2) love ones neighbour. Jesus Himself narrowed it all down to those two things. And that's good enough for me!

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 05:04 AM

It's interesting that in Luke's version, Jesus uses the Socratic method to get the person asking him about the law to tell Him what it is - both phrases being contained in the Torah.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Musket
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 08:57 AM

Hey Joe, having read your interesting links, I too am rooting for the nuns.

I have often felt regret with my "superstitious nonsense" stance, which I still firmly stand by, because there are many good people doing good deeds and a religion gives them the collective tools and support for them to be good people. Hence the dismissive stance of people like me can deflect from the good done in the name of religion.

I'm not surprised by what I have read. The nuns are working tirelessly in spartan surroundings with little personal possession whilst the Vatican leaders are in their gilded palace.

That's perhaps one of the reasons I cannot understand how and why good people prop up such institutions. My past voluntary work included seeing NGOs with no religious stance building up infrastructure, schools, wells, self sufficiency etc whilst the aid agencies attached to religions did the same, except the church / chapel / mosque etc was a condition of help.

I doubt it was the actual workers on the ground who made these stipulations....

Subject: RE: BS: The Vatican vs. The Nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 01:29 PM

Mexico received a dispensation from the no meat on Friday rule. I think the rational when it was given was the need for poor Mexicans to get any kind of food. Dunno if the dispensation still applies.

I wish the nuns well, but it is hard to fight the old fogies in any organized institution. So many rules, none of them envisioned by the inventors of the religion or other organization.