BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?

Subject: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 04:35 AM

I am passing on this brilliant posting, which was brought to my attention by a friend on Facebook:


Reposting: Thank-you very much Maya Fink for bringing this to my attention:

Check this out: On her radio show, Dr. Laura said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Schlesinger, written by a US man, and posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as quite informative:

Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.
1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan,

James M. Kauffman,

Ed.D. Professor Emeritus,

Dept. Of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education University of Virginia

P.S. (It would be a damn shame if we couldn't own a Canadian.)

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 04:49 AM

That has been going around the internet for well over over a decade.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 04:52 AM

Oh well, I have caught up at last. It is still a hoot!

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 05:02 AM

Well yes, LoL. Tho, like Peter, I have certainly come across it, or variants of it, before.

But is the matter still an issue, warranting rcycling this on a new thread? My impression is that it is all now a bit of a yesterday's controversy?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 05:08 AM

Yes. It is a good sign that it is no real controversy any more. I just happened to read it for the first time this morning and I thought that others would also be amused by it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 05:24 AM

What Snopes.com has to say about the 'letter'

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 05:33 AM

I'd never come across it before and enjoyed it enormously - thanks for brightening my Sabbath.
Does it have any relevance?
Living in a country where the church is battling tooth and nail to retain control of the hearts, minds (not to mention the bodies) of schoolchildren and where homosexuality is very much "An abomination to God".... I'll have to think carefully about that one!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 06:08 AM

How could homosexuality conceivably be an abomination to God when even his own son sat on his right hand?

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Musket
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 06:28 AM

Of course its an abomination to God.

Luckily, there is no such thing as God or any of the other mind controlling nonsense, and its just an excuse to extend bigotry whilst blaming an imaginary friend for having obnoxious views.

Next!

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 06:50 AM

Is God the real OP?

I commend alanabit for wishing, and for taking the time, to share these important questions with others on this Sabbath.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 09:48 AM

There's an image that's worth googling: "Leviticus tattoo fail". A man has a large tattoo quoting Leviticus 18:22 - "thou shall not be with a male as one does with a woman. It is an abomination."

The problem being is that Leviticus 19:28 also forbids tattoos. Presumably including tattoos declaring gays to be abominations.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 10:06 AM

Here you go...

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: foggers
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 11:22 AM

Well this just reminds me of all the reasons I fell out with fundamentalist religion some decades ago in my twenties.

And at a time when the debate about same sex marriage is raging, with statistics showing high numbers of homophobic hate crimes, I think the relevance is fairly plain to see. Thanks for posting!

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 12:15 PM

It is a good sign that it is no real controversy any more.

No real controversy? I guess you just haven't been paying attention, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 12:24 PM

Homosexuality - An abomination to God?

hmmmm....

now I'm not one to spread malicious rumours,
but has anyone ever heard of a Mrs God...???

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 12:28 PM

I think that, if there WERE a god, self-serving texts purporting to be his 'sacred word', but written by men, might be considered to be an abomination.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 01:20 PM

Stop being silly y'all.....this is a serious issue.
Why dont you start doing a little research.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 01:33 PM

As opposed to the song and dance? Seriously, are you serious? It would be truely laughable if it wasn't so truly sad.

You should turn the other cheek before you exact an eye for an eye. See what I'm sayin? If not, bite me. (Yeah, I did, didn't I?)

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Musket
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 02:07 PM

Wow, what a dilemma.

Akenaton has in previous threads said some disparaging things about God and religion.

Yet the anti homosexuality stance of many God botherers fits his own homophobic stance.

My enemy's enemy?

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Musket
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 02:09 PM

Of course, the reason why old frustrated men in pointy hats and their acolytes get so bothered about what normal people do in their private lives is that they are so used to rational people telling them to stick religion up their arse....

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 02:33 PM

And they seem to be used to shoving religion down their throats. I shant discuss the arse end of things.

Yeah, I did it again. Ain't I a stinker? >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 02:38 PM

gnu....I'm an atheist, what I mean by "Stop being silly" is that there is enough data out there from the official health agencies showing that homosexuality and its attenant promiscuity is an extremely dangerous and unhealthy sexual practice.....without bringing God into the debate.
As I said, if you would all go and do some research on a lifestyle which leaves thousands of its practitioners with severely impaired health, many of the youngest dead or dying, you would not enjoy the joke so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 02:39 PM

Thanks, alanabit.

Indeed the "Letter to Dr. Laura" has been doing the rounds for some time now, but it merits fairly frequent rereading—along with re-posting from time to time to make sure no one misses it.

There are those who get their kilts in a twist over the issue, but that's their problem. I wonder why they dwell on the matter so much, eh?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 03:22 PM

'that there is enough data out there from the official health agencies showing that homosexuality and its attendant promiscuity is an extremely dangerous and unhealthy sexual practice..'

People do write utter rubbish on this board.

1) Homosexuality does not intrinsically lead to promiscuity.

2) The most common STDs are chlamydia, genital warts, herpes and gonorrhea, all largely resulting from heterosexual intercourse.

3) HIV is just as likely to be transmitted by heterosexual sex as homosexual.

4)There is nothing intrinsically dangerous about homosexuality or heterosexuality.

5) Lesbians (they're homosexuals too, akenaton) are the least at risk from any STD.

Do put away your blinkers and read up on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 04:12 PM

For the religious among us, it is worth noting that, according to the Bible, the 613 commandments in the OT(not just ten) are only for the Jews, who must keep them because of their covenant with God. For the rest of us, it's up for grabs.

Beyond that, those who God gave the Old Testament to realized something important that many among us seem to have missed, mainly that though God may have said it, what He meant is a matter that has to be worked out by mere mortals. Anyone who claims to know what God wants needs to submit to rigorous questioning from the rest of us.

For that reason, there are extensive scholarly commentaries that discuss and debate what God said, as well as who He was talking to when he said it.

This approach is infinitely preferable to the the "God said it and I believe it" point of view propounded by certain "fundamentalists" who often have trouble understanding BBC dramatic programming, let alone the King James English.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 04:16 PM

"HIV is just as likely to be transmitted by heterosexual sex as homosexual."........oh?

Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men (MSM)1 represent approximately 2% of the US population, yet are the
population most severely affected by HIV. In 2009, MSM accounted for 61% of all new HIV infections, and MSM with a history
of injection drug use (MSM-IDU) accounted for an additional 3% of new infections. That same year, young MSM accounted
for 69% of new HIV infections among persons aged 13–29 and 44% of infections among all MSM. At the end of 2009, an
estimated 441,669 (56%) persons living with an HIV diagnosis in the US were MSM or MSM-IDU.

CDC May 2012.

Guest, perhaps it is you who has a bit of catching up to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 04:22 PM

Why would God create an abomination?

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 04:26 PM

Akenaton, you don't seem to be aware of the spread of HIV infection in Africa. It's you who needs to do some catching up!

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 04:29 PM

Among the abomination are incense (bit of a problem for the smells & bells school) and "divers weights".

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 04:45 PM

Even in Africa where multiple heterosexual partners are common, the new infection rates amongst MSM are much higher than those among heteros.....in percentage terms of course.

In Western developed countries the infection rates for syphilis and other sexual diseases are considerably higher in MSM.
MSM are also more severely affected by mental health issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 04:50 PM

To save time, all these figures are available from CDC and UNAIDS websites, tho' unbelievably UNAIDS do not consider it important to treat MSM (the massively greatest demographic) as a separate group!

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 04:59 PM

Ake, I have a sincere question for you: If you are truly passionate about the risks of HIV/AIDS among the homosexual populations, what are you doing about it? Are you out there cautioning males about the dangers of unprotected sex? Are you putting out posters and flyers directing people to agencies and websites that offer more information?

If not, in what way are you involved?

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 05:03 PM

He wants them to stop doing it - or better still die out. As far as I can figure it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 05:23 PM

I have resigned from the SNP who wish to legislate for homosexual marriage against the wishes of a large majority of those who responded to their "consultation document".

I am amazed that most on this forum are not concerned about the homosexual health figures, or at least are prepared to continue with the status quo.

When I first read these figures about three years ago the rate was 53% of all new infections, it has since been rising steadily, the latest figure for 2010 being just over 70%.

That means 2% of the population accounts for 70% of new hiv infections.....does no fucker ask themselves why?

and if we dont know why, shouldn't we bring in some measures to find out why?
Like compulsory registration and bi-annual testing for men who have sex with men?

Don't say that Gay Marriage would improve the situation, it is simply a smoke screen.....homosexuals do not want "marriage" the take up figures tell you that, the lifestyle seems to involve multiple partners for the vast majority of male homosexuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 05:25 PM

Ake. So, good for you that you don't engage in homo sex if you think it's not a good idea. I mean, gee whiz, if yer gonna put yerself at risk by having sex at all ya may as well play the odds by studying all the statistics even tho those statistics are gained by studies which are skewed from the get go. (I'da said screwed from the get go but I have reached my pun limit for today.)

Now, all of the above are a number of arguements under debate until the cows come homo SOOO... here is my suggestion to you. Go fuck yerself BUT use a condom eh? on accounta I wouldn't want you to catch the shite you are spreading... yet again.

True love and sex between individuals is as safe as they choose it to be no matter the form of the relationship. You and the studies you quote have nothing to do with THAT in itself so your diatribe is shite. NOTHING but complete shite.

Fuck yer an asshole. How the fuck do you sleep at night you nasty, ignorant person?

Kendall... "Why would God create an abomination?" Good point. But, "God" did create many... Ake, for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 05:26 PM

Why would God create an abomination?

Well, he created Paul Ryan .....

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 05:28 PM

Whatever ye say yersell Dougie!   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 06:03 PM

Martin Sheen used this shtick when he played the President on the West Wing television series. It's a pretty good piece, but it has been posted at Mudcat at least seven times already.


-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Bert
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 06:05 PM

Hmmm, He's against homosexual promiscuity

AND He's against homosexual marriage.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 06:07 PM

Skip it Bert...much too complicated :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 06:19 PM

Richard....I want people to stop smoking. I want people to stop injecting heroin......I dont want anyone to die.....not even Lady Thatcher.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 06:27 PM

Yer a skippy type, Ake. Maybe there is some Nancy in you? Latent tendancies? No need to be ashamed. It's natural as you age and get senile... or gain wisdom and intelligence. Although I assume it's just senility in your case.

Yeah, that's right. You shoved yer foot well into your mouth and I am watching you shoving it in further.

BTW, did I ever tell you I really, really don't like you?

Oh... yeah... I did... many times.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 06:39 PM

Adam and Eve.
Not Adam and Steve.
Godammit.
(:-( D)=


(just playing Devil's Advocate again)


Cheerio!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 06:46 PM

Thanks for stopping by, jackass.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 06:59 PM

Only 2% of Americans are gay......that can't be right, can it?

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 07:04 PM

Al... I dunno about gay in the new sense but I am happy as a clam. But then again, I prefer clams.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 07:35 PM

Naughty naughty Greg. Namecalling again.
What would yer Mum think?
I know she raised you better.
(:-( o)=

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 08:07 PM

"....(1)I want people to stop smoking. (2)I want people to stop injecting heroin......(3)I dont want anyone to die.....(4)not even Lady Thatcher. " ake

1. I have not seen you rant in thread after thread about the dangers of smoking or the societal costs of people continuing to smoke.
2. I have not seen you rant in thread after thread about the dangers of heroin or the societal costs of people continuing to use heroin.
3. Good luck with that. We all die.
4. Even Lady Thatcher.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 08:31 PM

I don't think God gives a shit about who does what to whom with what. If God really does, God's not doing God's job of overseeing the Universe and whatever is beyond it. As for disease, well, you should take care of yourself yourself -- as the TV show said, "The Truth is out there."

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 09:19 PM

Akenaton claims that homosexuals do not want "gay marriage" because they are into promiscuity.

Not according to my observations and experience.

Let me be clear:   I am heterosexual and have been married—to a woman—for thirty-five years. I have never engaged in homosexual relations and have never had an urge to. Personally, I find the idea distasteful to me.

But I also find rap music, heavy metal, deep-fried abalone steak, operatic sopranos with heavy vibrato, and politicians whose only tactic consists of negative campaigning distasteful.

My circumstances are such that I am acquainted with a number of homosexual couples; three pairs of gay men and one pair of lesbian women. All four of these couples are in stable, long-lasting relationships and considering their characters, general behavior, and commitment to each other, they are not "playing around," nor are they kind of people who would tend to "play around."

In fact, all four of these couples I met in the church my wife and I often attend.

None of these couples have HIV/AIDs, nor are they inclined to contract it. They all have committed relationships, are accepted by a wide number of friends and acquaintances, and are, in all respects, good citizens and assets to the community in which they live.

And as far as "defense of marriage" is concerned, the institution of marriage need not be defended against these people. Their relationships do not in any way affect Barbara's and my relationship with each other. In fact, considering their commitment to each other, they could serve as examples of what a good marriage should be.

Akenaton is living in a fictional nightmare composed of his own prejudices.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 10:01 PM

"abominations indeed"!
Would someone impregnating a young virgin in her sleep be considered an abomination? Would someone taking a six year old bride be considered an abomination?
If religions shit-canned their abominations would we have a better world? Don't know, just asking!"

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 10:14 PM

Perhaps they misheard God.

Perhaps God and his mates were sat down one night with a few beers and they were clicking through the channels and went past a gay porn channel

God's mate says, hey Big guy -what do you reckon to this...?

And God said, I reckon its a bum in action....

The whole thing could be a mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 03:11 AM

Ebbie my post was in response to Richard, who suggested that I want homosexuals to die.
My stance is that something needs to be done about the abysmal homosexual health statistics.....whereas most here seems to be quite happy to see hiv infection rates and other serious health issues continue to rise.

I have written often about drug abuse and the crime of cigarette manufacture to boost tax revenue, but most of us are in agreement about the need to address these issues and in the UK steps are being taken to save people from the results of their own folly.

The reason these threads on homosexuality take up so much time, is that "gay rights" has become a cornerstone of left wing ideology and as most here are wedded to that ideology, they fight tooth and nail against responsible published figures from official govt health sites.

I dont start these threads......If you dont want to hear the truth and live in the real world,dont start a debate on homosexuality.

Don is an excellent example.....he knows four homosexual couples whom he believes do not have hiv and are not promiscuous, so why should he listen to the results of a huge national survey which has been investigating the problem for almost thirty years.
That attitude does not make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 03:15 AM

I know two people who smoked all their lives and lived to over eighty.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 03:23 AM

What god ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,Johnny Jones
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 08:22 AM

As Akenaton explain on an earlier thread, his incestuous feelings for his uncle have distorted his attitudes to such a degree that he is incapable of logical thinking on this subject. People have tried repeatedly to explain to him, but he is so blinkered by his fear of his own sexuality that nothing gets through to him.

As someone explained on the other thread, if two virgins, of whatever gender or sexuality, marry and stay faithful to each other, they won't get sexually transmitted diseases. He is now 'dealing' with this by saying male homosexuals don't want to have monogamous relationships.

As the poor chap strays further and further from reality he gets more and more ridiculous.

Perhaps it would be kinder if everyone just ignored him.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 08:29 AM

My, what an argumentative first post to Mudcat, Johnny.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 08:45 AM

I think you're a bit unfair to Ake. My Dad was a cop and he spent many an hour hanging round the bogs in the park nicking cottagers.

I don't think my dad's attitude ever changed much. Ake probably had a Dad like that and he didn't move on with the times. That's all.

people feel what they feel, think what they think. As long as it doesn't interfere with you - live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Musket
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 08:58 AM

I don't think "God" came up with the twisted massaged statistics that the likes of Akenaton use to justify hating on the basis of pure hatred. People did, and I wonder why?

I'm not gay, and if asked, I like the response of Michael Gambon where he said he had to give it up because it made his eyes water. Sadly, thanks to people who genuinely do hate what they can't comprehend, such light hearted comments can be construed as homophobic.

Which is a shame because to laugh at each other is to accept each other. Which is why I never laugh at bigoted views....

Ok? Can this one be published?

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 09:34 AM

How about this for question No 11? Exodus 22:18 says "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". There have been no independently attested reports of witches anywhere in Britain for over 300 years. What's more, it's doubtful whether any existed even then, since said reports were mostly obtained by torture. Therefore, does this part of the bible no longer apply here? If so, are there any other sermons, injunctions, chapters, verses, prophecies, threats of celestial wrath, etc which we should similarly ignore?

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: John P
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 09:45 AM

My impression is that it is all now a bit of a yesterday's controversy?

Homosexuality is still illegal in the United States. It carries the death penalty in many other countries. No, not yesterday's controversy.

I want people to stop smoking. I want people to stop injecting heroin......I dont want anyone to die.....not even Lady Thatcher.

OK. Now explain why you don't advocate denying the right to get married to smokers, heroin addicts, and conservatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Stu
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 10:57 AM

Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Musket
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 11:04 AM

Owen,

Perhaps we should ignore the big bit that starts "In the beginning God created...." all the way to "Published by...." ?

After all, despite the beautiful prose and insight into the creative word usage around at the time of King James I, it is a book that has been used by dangerous people to instil fear and servitude in others. I reckon that combined with The Q'ran, they could give mosquitos a run for their money as the biggest killer?

Except mosquitos don't differentiate between straight and gay dudes....

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 11:15 AM

Ake.."My stance is that something needs to be done .."

Something IS being done. Medical research improves every year! People with HIV are living longer and there are indications of progress on a vaccination.

So, AKE, if they DO find a cure and a vaccination, you'll be satisfied...right?

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 11:34 AM

Sorry, folks, we've been ignoring the big issue. Did God, if s/he really exists, say these things for which s/he is being quoted/blamed.

As God is a God of all of us, I await a direct communication from this being which will verify said being's existence. For the past several thousand years, all we have had is reports by interested parties that God has told them to write X information to enlighten the public. Until we hear directly from this being, as individuals [which is certainly within God's capability] all statements are suspect.

At present, I am willing to accept "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" as sufficient for most rules. The remainder is covered by the rubric F-IW [Freedom is the right to say "I won't." Eric Frank Russell].

I continue to await enlightenment.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 12:05 PM

Hope springs eternal.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 12:21 PM

'Homosexuality is still illegal in the United States.'

Utter rubbish! Homosexuality has never been illegal in the US but the act of sodomy was until 2003 and The Supreme Court's verdict in the Lawrence v. Texas case.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 12:28 PM

Uh, yeah . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 12:43 PM

Homosexuality has never been illegal in the US but the act of sodomy was until 2003

so that might explain why so many young straight yank guys are so obsessed with 'anal'
on internet porn sites...?????


the mucky buggers ...


.... and rising hepatitis amongst heterosexuals ?????

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 01:22 PM

HIV is a modern disease. What did the ancients use for a reason to persecute homos?
Leviticus is so handy when you need something to persecute someone.
Old Jewish saying: "Everyone needs a dog to kick."

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 01:28 PM

HIV is not a disease, Kendall. Get your facts straight.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 01:46 PM

Actually, AIDS is a constellation of disorders and vulnerabilities associated with the presence of the family of viri which go under the generic term Human Immunosupressive Viruses. In the strictest sense, Kendall is wrong but in the sense of the constellation, he is absolutely correct. Don't be such a pedant, sturgeon.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 01:57 PM

God is love
He's your best chum
But he says no!
To up the bum...

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 02:16 PM

Al Whittle, were you born a complete wanker or did you have to practise?

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 02:29 PM

Little Hawk is probably the wisest poster on mudcat,

Big Al is easily prime contender for most imaginatively creatively funny;

but when it comes to mudcat's smuggest dullard sanctimonious prig..

that's more difficult ???,

there's far too many to choose from.........

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 03:11 PM

So, there was a 92-yr-old lady in Bible Study this morning who was all upset about Obama supporting gay marriage, and she said he was in league with Beelzebub. I told her I thought she was listening to too much propaganda - I think it's coming from Mother Angelica's Eternal Word Television Network in Alabama.
She said it was "against God's law" for men to marry other men, and she said it says so in the Bible. I said there are a lot of laws in the Bible that don't apply to our day and age.
I had her turn to the end of Ephesians and Colossians, where St. Paul tells slaves to be obedient to their masters - which seems to be a very clear approval of slavery. I told her that maybe Paul was just not dealing with the issue of the rightness of slavery at the time - that instead the emphasis was on the respect that slaves and masters should have for each other as human beings. I think/hope that took the wind out of her sails a bit.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 03:12 PM

Seems to me we have a choice between ease and disease. Which area would AIDS fall into?
Sturgeon, I have my facts right. Being human, I also have a slip of the fingers at times. In this case, I don't see where it matters what it is called; that's not the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 03:17 PM

HIV may not even be a virus. Here is the first page of a nice walk thru tour that gives a survey of the questions that many leading scientists have about Akenaton's little tin drum.
Virus Myth

Not that many of you will read it, but it helps to keep an open mind...

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 03:19 PM

Ake... "... whereas most here seems to be quite happy to see hiv infection rates and other serious health issues continue to rise."

What a stunned thing to say... on more than one level.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 03:48 PM

'Al Whittle, were you born a complete wanker or did you have to practise? '

Practice is important, but I suspect there was always a certain natural ability.


And what of you Little Sturgeon? These are grown up waters dangerous for the likes of those lacking in a sense of humour. you have been rancorous , made yourself disagreeable, and pedantic in two posts.

I don't think Mudcat is your sort of place - people here tend to be mature, sophisticated, and broad minded. You just seem sort of wrong - try the Yahoo chatrooms - you'll seem like a fucking genius in there.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 03:59 PM

Ake, over my rather lengthy life I have known a lot more than four homosexual couples. Out of a fairly large number of people, I know of two men who contracted HIV/AIDs and died from it. That's two too many of course, but contrary to what you keep saying, it's a pretty small percentage of those I have been acquainted with over the years.

You try to bolster your own case by attempting to denigrate my knowledge and experience.

You judge the whole situation from a bunch of statistics—which, by the way, you tend to "spin" to reflect your own prejudices. One "statistic" you have cited a number of times is that "74% of homosexual men have HIV/AIDs." I have checked the CDC figures and what they say is that 74% of those who have HIV/AIDs are men, NOT that "74% of homosexual men have HIV/AIDs." And some of those men may by heterosexual and picked it up from women who where infected.

The problem is not homosexual men. The problem, as with all sexually transmitted diseases, is promiscuity. Is that so hard to grasp?

The way you are using the CDC's statistics is as if one is saying that 100% of men have prostate cancer, which is obviously silly. Only men have prostates. Therefore, 100% of those who contract prostate cancer are men.

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics!"

If you were REALLY concerned with reducing the incidence of HIV/AIDs, one would think that you would be promoting the reduction of promiscuity among homosexual men by encouraging stable, monogamous relationships—instead of denigrating and deriding those who ARE concerned.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 04:01 PM

Steady on Al, if he'll be a genius, the likes of you could have a whole religion created in your name. What would the neighbours say? You'd certainly not get a visa to revisit Worksop...

Hey Joe! Very good, very wise but the problem with biblical interpretation is that very few bible classes have the benefit of your sage wisdom. Hence my dismissal of the good book as a power for good is a bit like the inert gun, never hurt anyone till the wrong person pulled the trigger. Doesn't make guns a good idea and neither does the bible make for good solutions to getting people to respect each other's lifestyle.

Sorry but I genuinely believe that to be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 05:18 PM

Ah well....Another day another dollar, so whats been happening then?

Oh dear, someone left the door open and let the invertibrates in!

Guest sturgeon....something fishy going on there methinks, could it be a Scottish member incognito?

Mr Jones   "Yer lookin' for somethin' but you dunno what it is....do you Mr Jones?"......Let me enlighten you sir, it is a kick in the balls, if you are ever unfortunate enough to find yourself in my company. You lying slimebag, my dear old Uncle was my adopted father...a better, kinder,straighter man never drew breath and I loved him dearly, just as I love my sons and many others here love their mothers, daughters,fathers, sons.

I have a good friend here, whos grandfather meant all the world to him......do you have the ignorance and impudence to imply that we all have incestuous feelings towards our respective family members.
Joe.... I am amazed that you let these personal attacks stand....fair enough, gnu is a registered member and not quite wired up properly, but personal attacks by a guest poster....tut tut.

Don...you are lying again, I have never said that 74% of homosexuals are hiv positive....the true figure is around 20% in major US cities.
I am only responding to you to clarify the point.
I stopped responding to your posts after the last lies....I have no time for people who tell lies on internet forums, then refuse to apologise.

Al thank you for being "mild not bitter" we have had many good discussions on many subjects over the years, but my father/uncle was nothing at all like you describe your father; as far as I know he knew nothing about homosexuality and we certainly never discussed it.
We were far to busy enjoying music (he was a great singer of comedy songs), watching and playing football and involved in our great love, greyhound racing.

Bill...As you know, I dont deal in hypotheticals. I deal in facts, and regardless of what you or others here say, the CDC figures are facts...pure and simple

Ian Mather... "I don't think "God" came up with the twisted massaged statistics that the likes of Akenaton use to justify hating on the basis of pure hatred. People did, and I wonder why?"

Are you mad? Are you seriously implying that CDC are twisting and massaging their statistics? and where exactly does the "hating" come in?......."hating on the basis of pure hatred"...you've lost the plot!

Oh well nothing of value as far as the debate is concerned, I'm beginning to wish someone would come up with some sort of validation of the lifestyle instead of the interminable abuse and claptrap.

I wont bother saying anymore unless you all brighten up a bit...try to concentrate harder, put all the dogma and "liberal" ideology aside for ten minutes, there might still be life in there!   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 05:43 PM

I think it's an immature behavour. Grow up and find a mate of the opposite sex.
Or be an immature little wanker that's scared of the opposite sex.
(:-( P)=

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 06:26 PM

"Don...you are lying again, I have never said that 74% of homosexuals are hiv positive...."

It might take a bit of time, Ake, but I think I might be able to find the post on one of the various threads on this subject where you said that. And defended it vociferously when challenged.

But I don't think reducing the incidence of HIV/AIDs is your real purpose, otherwise you'd be trying to encourage homosexuals to form stable, monogamous relationships instead of attacking us "loony liberals" who support the idea of passing same-sex marriage legislation in order to do just that!

Since time immemorial, do-gooders have been trying to suppress what they consider to be "vices"—i.e., behavior they disapprove of, by attempting to prohibit it by various means. America's experiment with Prohibition (making the manufacture, transportation and sale of alcoholic beverages a criminal offense) from 1920 to 1933 was an object lesson in how futile and counterproductive this sort of thing can be. It produced one of the greatest crime-sprees the world has ever seen.

The stiff-lipped, non-smiling mignons still haven't learned from things like that, as is demonstrated by the so-called "War on Drugs" that, among other things, has led to the guerilla wars along the U. S. – Mexican border between the Feds and the various drug cartels.

Tax it and regulate it! As Bobert says, "it ain't rocket surgery!"

But there is the old adage, "Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

Discouraging promiscuity by encouraging stable, monogamous same-sex marriages is the INTELLIGENT way of approaching the spread of HIV/AIDs.

One would think that anyone who is really concerned with the matter would get on board with that, instead of trying to fight it.

But then—maybe, with some people, that's not the real issue.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 06:35 PM

Ake... "Joe.... I am amazed that you let these personal attacks stand....fair enough, gnu is a registered member and not quite wired up properly, but personal attacks by a guest poster....tut tut."

I did not personally attack you. However, many of the posters herein agree that you are rather abrasive in your posts... such as when you personally attacked many posters herein with a broad brush, myself included, by putting words in their mouths that were, as per my last post, despicable. You may try to hide behind that braod brush but it is you who has personally attacked others herein. I can only assume your attack was in response to various Mudcatters posting to the effect that your arguements and postulates are stunned as me arse.

Further to you saying that I personally attacked you, as far as me saying something like, "I don't like you.", who the fuck does? Anyone who reads your posts herein makes up there own minds about you as an individual. As do they view me in similar fashion. At the end of the day, I have friends here who are intelligetnt and compassionate and you have your sad self, devoid of compassion and any semblence of rational arguement for the vitriol you spew thinly disguised as factual debate.

Others have asked you to put your money where your mouth is. I doubt it will happen on accounta yer mouth is FAR too big for you to back it up. Prove me wrong if you can.

Personal attack? No. This is just my opinion... yer a fuckin asshole. Nothin new. I been sayin that since I read yer first post you troll.

Ake... take yer hate and shove it.

Moderator(s)... delete this if you want. I said my piece. This post really doesn't need to stay on accounta everyone can read Ake's previous posts and see what I am sayin... I am just sayin, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 07:26 PM

Joe, I like to inform the homophobes that God never wrote a word, Jesus never wrote a word, and it seem dd to me that the omnipotent God that created everything, including gays, would need some mortal to let us know what he thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 07:38 PM

God is a LESBIAN.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 07:42 PM

You can put any damned thing in your mouth you want to.
Just don't do it around me.
( :-( P)=

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 08:32 PM

Jsut don't stand around and watch so you can be offended, pervert!

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: John P
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 10:32 PM

Utter rubbish! Homosexuality has never been illegal in the US but the act of sodomy was until 2003 and The Supreme Court's verdict in the Lawrence v. Texas case.

The fact that homosexuals, as a group, are officially discriminated against at both the federal and state levels makes it as good as illegal in my book. Maybe I shouldn't have said that homosexuality is illegal. It's just sort of less than all the way legal.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 03:28 AM

So how did this law against sodomy work out?

Could you be arrested before insertion - or just during and after. Did they raid peoples houses and say, you've beeen at it!

How to prove intention...? What a line of defence!

Not us! We're just a couple of cocksuckers! We wouldn't stoop so low...

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Stu
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 04:22 AM

"invertibrates"

Invertebrates.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Musket
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 04:25 AM

Now then Akenaton.. I use Musket these days for a good reason, so if you ever want to discuss matters where your blinkers don't preclude your engagement, I only answer to that silly name on the bullshit threads.

However, let me help you a little here. The CDC statistics you refer to have a raw element that is considered when those charged with analysing public health prepare the epidemiology of medical conditions. However, you will find plenty of articles in The British Medical Journal, The Lancet and The New England Journal of Medicine providing commentary to published research at a level lay people such as you and I can understand.

The good news is; being gay isn't going to kill off the planet. So if it is an abomination to God, it doesn't say much about the God some people put up as an excuse for tbeir own hatred of anyone different to them.

I lost the plot years ago, but shall endevour to ensure twisted bigotry doesn't find said plot.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 05:43 AM

Troll alert - again.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 05:46 AM

I've often wondered if the authors of the Bible intended it to be read as literally as many people read it today. Leviticus, for example, is a collection of moral codes, and many of them conflict with each other. They serve to illustrate many worthwhile moral principles, but I don't think they were meant to be followed word-for-word. After all, the Jewish tradition was one of discussion and disagreement, not one or rigid law. It does seem that literalistic legalism was alive and well at the time of Jesus, but it seems that literalism develops as time goes on and context is forgotten.

If you look at the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament as a whole, you'll see that very little is said about homosexuality. Therefore, I would guess that it must not have been a very important issue at the time the scriptures were written. Compare the dietary laws with the coverage of sex in the bible, any you'll get the distinct impression that the scripture writers really didn't care to try to regulate sex to any extent.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: alanabit
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 09:33 AM

That rings true Joe. I recall reading in one part of the Old Testament that vegetarianism was mandatory. Then only a couple of chapters later, there was a description of which animals would be eaten at which feasts.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: John P
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 09:55 AM

A big part of my dislike of people who engage in gay bashing on Christian grounds is the extreme dichotomy between the moral codes presented in the Old Testament and the New Testament. Inconsistently applied negative judgement on the one hand and a consistent message of love and acceptance on the other. The two don't mix, and it makes for people with moral codes that are founded on contradictions and cognitive dissonance.

I want everyone who is pushing for anti-gay laws for religious reasons to also be pressing for laws that require us, as a nation, to turn the other cheek. I'd like to see a Congressional Proclamation that the Love is the most important thing there is. And, of course, we should be constructing needles to shove all the rich folks through. Then there's eating kosher . . .

What I really wish is that the Old Testament "Christians" would come up with a different name for their hateful and judgmental religion. It sure ain't Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 03:19 PM

I believe that Jesus had some fairly harsh words for the Pharisees, who were the fundamentalists of their day.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 05:58 PM

Ake: "Bill...As you know, I dont deal in hypotheticals.

Well, that seems to me a clear evasion of an important question. You can collect all the facts you wish... and even if I agree that you have found accurate ones, the question remains.... for ALL those who decry homosexuality: "What difference would it make if HIV/AIDS were totally defeated?"

For many, it would make NO difference, as they totally oppose it on biblical/moral grounds. You, however, dwell on the health issues as your main concern. Very commendable, I'm sure... and I doubt that anyone here who debates you will dispute that health issues are extremely relevant and important.
What seems to draw all the fire IS that you constantly evade questions like mine and just seem to 'suggest' that homosexuals should... what?... change their behavior? Quit BEING gay? I ask how a cure and/or vaccination would affect how.. or whether.. you view the situation. I'm sorry, but " I dont deal in hypotheticals. doesn't say much.

This thread didn't even begin as a defense of homosexuality, but was merely a comment on religious views, yet you seem to respond to any mention of homosexuality with more quotations about 'statistical facts'. Can you blame us if we find that odd?

Laws and restrictions and condemnations of ANYTHING... from oil drilling to gun ownership to sewage discharge should be based on relevant facts... INCLUDING how the restrictions might change as control over the problem changes.

I have now asked you perhaps 5-6 times what you would have the authorities DO about you concerns and how that would change if the 'problem' were better controlled. You do quite a little dance to avoid a direct answer. It makes me wonder...............

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 07:25 PM

homophobia (n)- the fear that gay men will treat you the way you treat women.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: kendall
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 07:28 PM

As I understand it, ancient Jewish law was about inheritance not morality.
If a man died and had no son, his brother was expected to "Lie with" her and produce a son. That son was then declared the son of the dead man. It was all about inheritance. Women were not allowed to own property.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: gnu
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 08:30 PM

"Women were not allowed to own property."

Holy shit! My ex... ahhh, nevermind. Sad story.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 11:02 PM

Having spent some time on Mudcat, I know that Akenaton can be counted on to recite his decidedly homophobic views at the drop of a hat. I suspect he's going to change them the day after Bobert votes for Mitt Romney.

I think that it is a touching testimony to your love for Ake that you invest so much effort in him, when there is such a slim chance of his salvation.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 12:11 AM

Hi, Ake. Just letting you know you owe me a message. Trust things are well.

B

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 04:39 AM

'I think that it is a touching testimony to your love for Ake that you invest so much effort in him, when there is such a slim chance of his salvation.'

Judge not, lest you be judged (Matthew 6)
(in my opinion the toughest injunction in the Sermon on the Mount.)


Our love for Ake and all the people who put up with our occasionally nasty behaviour on Mudcat is quite unconditional. You simply don't understand the climate of opinion that we grew up with - re homosexuality. When we were kids it had the same kind of opprobrium reserved for paedophiles nowadays.

Some of us change. We reject our parents values - we realise that we are living in a different world that our parents lived in - the truths that they took to be unalterable went in the dustbin like last weeks newspaper.

For reasons of social and geographical mobility (and remember Britain is a class ridden country) some people don't change much. most of us don't change enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 05:28 AM

(cockermouth - a town as delightful as it sounds)

intolerance of all our differences is just wrong surely. if we try to bring our imaginary big best friend into the argument to punish the different people - it's just bullying and makes your best friend as much of a mean-spirited bigot as you are. you may be able to live with that but isn't the big best friend supposed to be perfect?

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 05:43 AM

yes Pete - its wrong. But that wasn't quite so obvious fifty years ago - the climate of opinion was different. And some of us got indoctrinated very deeply. Give the child til seven, and all that stuff...

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 06:31 AM

while we may be influenced by the climate of the times - see the different reception a racist comedian will get today compared to 50 years back - the church is supposed to be about eternal truths. bigotry, slavery, child abuse eg may be acceptable in some countries and at some times - if the role of the churches is not to give us moral guidance about our way of treating each other, then what is it for? the roman catholic church, having supported fascism in the 1940s, can't lecture anyone about morality.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 07:38 AM

god is a lesbian can anyone prove otherwise?

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 08:12 AM

Well - She told me she was straight....

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 11:26 AM

Thinking about what Joe said--The writers did not intend to have every word of the Torah taken literally. Yes and no.

People who would take a bunch of ex-slaves, have them abide in a desert for 40 years would tend to be rather strong minded, almost certainly of a fundamentalist bent and would expect everyone they brought out the other side to be as strongly adherent to the olde faith as they were. They knew they were forging a people out of malleable clay. They knew they were forming a way of life for generations to follow.

That said, it has been demonstrated that there were several writers or committees which produced various books of the Bible, including the Pentateuch. How could we not expect there to be inconsistencies based upon the interests and prejudices of the individual writers.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 08:50 PM

Well, EBarnacle, when you have a mystically significant number like 40, the meaning is more significant than the actual passage of time. 40 indicates a time of retreat and reflection. But note that in the story, the people spent about a year traveling from Egypt to Palestine - and 39 years settled at the base of Mount Sinai (wherever that was). Guesstimates are that the Exodus took place about 1200 BCE. The stories were passed alone orally for three or four hundred years before they first appeared in written form, and then the Pentateuch went through maybe another three hundred years of editing and rewriting before it got to more-or-less its current form. Some say the current form of the Pentateuch dates back to sometime after the return from Babylon, which was in 535 BCE.
Some say that Exodus is as much a retelling of the exile in Babylon, as it is an account of the exile in Egypt. At the very least, I think it can be said that the Exodus event, as written, is seen through the eyes of those who have more recently experienced the trauma of the exile in Babylon.
This all makes the Bible a fascinating document to study. We tend to forget, however, that it is an ancient document produced in an ancient context. You just can't take it off the shelf and let every preacher with a dimestore diploma use it as a book of instructions for daily living. There is much in the Bible that is clear and quite inspiring - but there's a lot that demands a great deal of scholarship to approach any level of understanding.
So when people tell me that the Bible prohibits homosexuality and a bunch of other stuff they don't like, I politely change to topic of discussion.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 12:45 AM

A flow chart with a similar message to that of the letter.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: alanabit
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 05:32 AM

Joe, I am just coming to the end of Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion", which is well written, well documented and beautifully argued. My Agnosticism is moving towards Atheism. However, when I read level headed, sensible posts like your last one, I am reminded that I have nothing to fear from the majority of level headed religious people. Thank-you for an illumintating post.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 09:47 AM

Now, if only level-headed religious people were in the majority.......

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 10:09 AM

Akenaton, it's clear they are, in reality, unhappy with the statistics, but lefty dogma won't allow them to admit it to themselves. In the resultant mental confusion, they lash out at the messenger.

I know the childish abuse doesn't bother you, even though they may think it does.

I wonder how people can make such loud howls of protest with their heads so firmly in the sand? - it's not about god, not about homophobia, not about anything except protecting innocents against being drawn into a lifestyle which - statistically - is not good for them.

Same goes for the drugs scene - it's the job of the responsible part of society to speak out to protect the vulnerable. It's how responsible communities work.

On a lighter note, I loved Steve Shaw's post at 6.08 on the 12th!

g

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 10:13 AM

".... being drawn into a lifestyle...."

er, no....please educate yourself about homosexuality - ignorance is dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 10:52 AM

The lifestyle I refer to is not the clean-living lifestyle of many (the majority of?) homosexuals - the lifestyle I refer to is the careless promiscuity practised by those who make the statistics so heavily weighted towards those who will have a suffering life ahead of them.

You may not think they should be warned of the dangers, but I do.

What are you afraid of? - the stats clearly show there is a problem, and you can't begin to help with a problem if for your own reasons you try to deny its existence.

g

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 10:55 AM

"being drawn into a lifestyle which - statistically - is not good for them"

Fucking someone with HIV is not lifestyle, it's stupidity. The stats do show that HIV infection is high in the homosexual population, but more factors could be in play than just where one's pecker ends up. While there has been concerted effort to warn people about HIV and transmission methods and said virus, there has been little effort to go beyond token 'out-reach' programs to the homosexual communities scattered around the world. Some countries impose a death sentence for being homosexual.

People have never felt truly comfortable (please note that this is a broad brush I'm painting with) mixing with other people outside their belief system, 'ethnic' group, linguistic experience, sexual comfort zone, etc. However, attitudes that isolate people do not help address the problem, whatever that problem is. IMO, when it comes to disease it is a worldwide concern, just like nuclear, biological and chemical warfare weapons. Not a problem that belongs to any specific group(s) of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Musket
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 11:06 AM

The statistics that giovanni is wrapping him or herself in have to include that more women become HIV positive than men.

Ignorance of AIDS and HIV was a huge issue for the gay community years ago in the same way that dirty instruments were an issue in surgery before we understood contamination. Doesn't mean surgery is an abomination to God or any other abstraction.

Said statistics include the shorter relationship time in gay partnerships than heterosexual ones. It would appear that lack of acceptance by society exacerbates fragile relationships.

So.. using statistics, and for once in the guise of a "lefty" whatever, will you and Akenaton please stop spreading AIDS?   It's your poisoning of society against a lifestyle that makes relationships less stable after all.....

zzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 11:14 AM

Sexually transmitted disease is spread
by all kinds of ignorant selfish stupid irresponsible people
indulging in unsafe & unhygienic sexual activity.

Is that something we can all agree on ?


I ain't sucking anyone's cheesey toes
or sticking my fingers, tongue & knob in any bumholes
no matter how much someone might want me to....

and most definitely vice versa...

..my feet and arse are rank at the best of times........

In fact my mrs* is best off keeping well away from my dry scaly grimy knees as well !!!



[* not much real likelyhood anybody else would be interested these days anyway...]

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 11:44 AM

Jell-o is an abomination to God

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 12:06 PM

Olddude, what if you eventually discover that Jello is angels's food? Huh? Huh? Boy, are you going to feel silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 12:28 PM

..and for the benefit of objective perspective...


In the UK there is apparently a significant rise in STD infections
amongst senior citizens,
resulting from a misapprehension that as pregnancy is no longer a risk
there is no need for using condoms !!!???


the daft old fuckers...

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 05:05 PM

Joe Offer says
   
    "I've often wondered if the authors of the Bible intended it to be read as literally as many people read it today"

Well, I've often wondered why any sane person wouldn't think that the Bible is just one big - dangerous - fairy tale.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 05:11 PM

no one has offered proof that god was not a lesbian

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 05:13 PM

I've often wondered why any sane person wouldn't think that the Bible is just one big - dangerous - fairy tale."punk,etc

To my mind, as long as people persist in altruism, or responding to music or falling in love, there will be belief in a higher power. We can all agree that the non-physical is real.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 07:57 PM

Tunesmith, when you write off the Bible as "just one big - dangerous - fairy tale," you scare me. I gather then, that you think it should be suppressed. As with many significant books, the danger lies in how they are read. The Bible is a fascinating - and valuable - collection of literature that covers the period from about 1200 BCE to 150 CE. It chronicles the story of deeply flawed people who sought to live their lives in a sometimes-rocky relationship with That Which Is Beyond. As such, it's a fascinating thing to study, and it's relevant to many who seek that same relationship.

But yes, if it's viewed as a Guide to Correct Thinking, it's dangerous. Any book that is seen as being meant to govern how people think, is dangerous. But it's not really the book that's dangerous - it's the attitude that is the danger.

I see the Bible as a chronicle of struggles and mistakes and contradictions, with a good bit of wisdom mixed in for those who can pick it out. I really don't think it attempts to dictate how people should live or how they should think.

But there are people who are afraid to think their own thoughts - if they don't get their Guide to Thinking in the Bible, they'll find some other crutch that will allow them to avoid thinking for themselves.

As to the original subject, homosexuality, I think it's clear in the Bible that at some times during the period from 1400 BCE to 150 CD, homosexuality was frowned upon. But since it really isn't mentioned in the Bible with much frequency or much vehemence, I'd reckon that it really isn't something for religious people to bother getting all upset about. Jesus got very upset about hypocrisy, and didn't say anything at all about homosexuality. Perhaps the message is that hypocrisy is the far greater sin?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 08:12 PM

God is a man, not a woman of any sexual persuasion.

A woman wouldn't leave all this shit around.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 08:15 PM

I will never forget the time Pastor Shannon Anderson of Central Lutheran Church in Seattle held up a copy of the Bible and said firmly, "This is not the Boy Scout Manual. It is not a book of answers. It is a book of questions!"

Not a collection of "Final Answers," but a book that raises topics for discussion

In "The Bible as Literature" course that I took in the English Department at the U. of Washington many years ago, it was treated as a collection of legends and folk tales, much as in the previous quarter, we had studied "Beowulf." If one wished to discuss it as a religious book, those discussions had to take place outside the class.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 08:26 PM

Don... good stuff. Unfortunate that so many uneducated and inbred idiots don't understand same. Leads to some pretty bad stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 09:23 PM

I agree with you Ebbie. As to Tunesmith, here is commentary on the real meaning of "the big dangerous fairytale"--I would figure the Rabbi Hillel was a better judge of the Bible than you.

Hillel and the Golden Rule

"Once there was a gentile who came before Shammai, and said to him: "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot. Shammai pushed him aside with the measuring stick he was holding. The same fellow came before Hillel, and Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 31a

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 09:35 PM

A great old Catholic priest that married my daughter once said in his sermon when someone asked him if Gay people are all sinners ...He said, King David also had 500 wives. Perhaps the bible isn't a very good source to consult on sexual matters ...

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 09:43 PM

Amen!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 09:46 PM

Dominus vobiscum.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 10:01 PM

Et cum spiritu tuo.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 10:08 PM

Oremus.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 10:25 PM

Si. (I used Italian because Latin has no yes, and yes, it has no no.)

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,mando-player-91
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 10:30 PM

Being gay is in no way a abomination how could someone even think that? As both gay myself and seeing all this hate and misunderstanding or jumping to conclusions about us LBGT I have to say this. We are all born this way we didn't chose to be gay or lesbian or bi-sexual or transgender. If there is a god and he created us then he created us LGBT. This is not a life style or we are not confused . Being gay is a gift from god.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: PHJim
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 10:58 PM

I always wonder how some of these anti-gay folks would react to hearing that their child or grand-child was gay.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,mando-player-91
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 11:37 PM

30% of homeless Americans are LBGT because their families all disowned them.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 01:59 AM

mando-player-91. I am curious where that 30% figure comes from. The number bandied about tends to be around 20%, and that is qualified as "adolescent, who are a homeless population that is very elusive because they often don't connect with the usual homeless services.

Anyway, thanks for reminding us that there are a lot of LGBTQ kids out on the street. They are a vulnerable, at risk group, and, amidst all the talk about the sanctity of marriage and all the Ake-nonsense, very much ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 03:20 AM

This page gives a lot of information about LGBT youth, and clarifies the 30% figure given by mando-player 91. It might be more accurate to say that somewhere between 30 and 40 percent of big-city homeless youths identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender. Whatever the case, it's a large number.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 04:42 AM

Some great posts there mando man. LBGT took a bit of working out, but I got there. lesbian, bisexual, gay, transexual - yeh? Very sad about parents. I guess they're not happy with what they got. My parents wanted a doctor part time athlete - they got a guitar playing something or other.

Talking of Dominus Vobiscum


http://www.bigalwhittle.co.uk/lifehistoryandsongsof/id27.html

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 04:54 AM

That was way more than a page, Joe! At any rate, I wasn't really satisfied with the numbers they gave-it seems likely to me, for a lot of reasons, that a high percentage of the homeless kids are LGBTQ, but I'd really like to see solid numbers from some kind of broad survey.

Statistics on homelessness come from the point-in-time count that HUD requires all providers who receive federal funding to make, but there there is no sexual preference info, and though the count asks questions about causes of homelessness, none of the options relate to LGBTQ issues.

I don't mean to be a wonk about this, but over the years, in a variety of different circumstances, I've encountered homeless adolescents, and I know that there are a great many of them. The thing is, they don't fit into the typical idea of "homeless" which tends toward "homeless shelter" families that the press love to write about around the holidays, and that notorious older "substance abuser/mentally ill" population. They are the forgotten of the forgotten, and they shouldn't be.