BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 05:25 PM

"Don't suppose you'd care to qualify that - you've qualified nothing else you've said so far."

I concur with the well written and thoughtful comment posted by Stim about 4 hours before you again made an ass of yourself by posting the comment above.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 04:54 PM

For your consideration, Jim Carroll, from V.I. Lenin, "The Attitude of the Workers' Party to Religion":

"The philosophical basis of Marxism, as Marx and Engels repeatedly declared, is dialectical materialism, which has fully taken over the historical traditions of eighteenth-century materialism in France and of Feuerbach (first half of the nineteenth century) in Germany—a materialism which is absolutely atheistic and positively hostile to all religion."

And the declaration of Engels that he specifically referred to to was "Anti-Dühring".

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 04:14 PM

"But taken on its own, I think that Marxism or at least Stalinism as it has been practiced belongs in a conversation about definitions of atheism."
Don't suppose you'd care to qualify that - you've qualified nothing else you've said so far.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 04:10 PM

One would also have to mention the atheism of Ayn Rand, the fascist novelist.

There are many who call themselves atheists but if you think about Stalin or Rand, you come to the conclusion that they are fundamentalist and worshipful toward their ideals. Hence, Stalinism, Randism, fascist or other Communist ideologies can be thought of as being "religious". Not so with some atheists however because they adhere to the skeptical notion of non-belief which is not a religion and eschew dogma regardless of how they are accused otherwise.

Ed, I think one can be respectful in communication without having to respect their ideas.
I disagree that the two are connected. I think that if the dialogue is presented in an even-handed informative and critical way, even then, it will step on someone's toes, particularly in the areas of religion and politics. But to be cowed by self-censorship just because someone doesn't like what's being said is tantamount to ignoring the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 12:02 PM

Actually, Steve, it's not bollocks. I posted the link to the democide above. As to the avowed atheism of the USSR and PRC, check this: Wiki on State Atheism Marx, Lenin, and Engel's writings on religion and atheism are online--I didn't post any links because it is a PITA to read that stuff, and I really do like you.

I posted the number of deaths associated with Communism/Marxism etc. as a response to, "Marxism is the true path". I don't blame you, Dawkins, or Christopher Hitchens for any of those deaths;-)

I've been involved in civil rights, labor union, anti-war, and green politics for a long time, and was close to many who were associated with the "Old Left"--for the most part, they were selfless, idealistic social visionaries, who bridled at the the oppression they saw in the world. Krushchev's 1956 speech denouncing Stalin, and exposing his history of murder, brutality, and repression hit them hard, because they had supported the revolution and believed in what it stood for. They felt what we all feel when a dream becomes a nightmare.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 11:06 AM

I quoted the first "Guest: Concerned" post n this thread to illustrate that she has not made a good first impression on me. The bit about "Marxism" was I thought, incidental to my purpose.

But taken on its own, I think that Marxism or at least Stalinism as it has been practiced belongs in a conversation about definitions of atheism. I think she was quite clever and thoughtful to slip that it.

Seems like she is in accord with you in this statement Jim.

"Why dont you all get to grips with the fact that all this religan is a smoke screen put about by people who want to dominate you, and make you forget about the real issues."

Here debates style comes across as Shaw's attitude with pete's grammar. Entertaining, to say the least.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 06:24 AM

Thanks, Jim Carrol, I missed that post?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 03:50 AM

Ed T
"I am confused as to how your comments relate to the topic?"
On this particular occasion I was responding to Sailor Jack's posting;
"Marxism the true path", he was echoing Guest's Concerned statement way, way back.
I, like you, am at a loss as to why it should have a place here - unless you put it down to Futwick's question: "How does atheism differ from Marxism?"
The hint that atheists might be closet Marxists does, I believe, lurk behind all these arguments.
I certainly didn't introduce Marxism into these threads - I don't know enough about the subject to have done so.
Stim was an early contender in comparing atheism with Communism by declaring Stalin (the 'failed' priest') to be a devout atheist on the 'Militant atheism has become a religion' thread.
I have no intention of defending the track records of countries which claim to be Marxists; I just thought it worthwhile to point out that Marxism is a socio/political/economic theory and is not a religion. It has never been anything other than a theory anyway; an aim for the time in the case of some countries, but never a practiced system of society (unless you count the Diggers and the early days of the Paris Commune).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 09:44 PM

Jim Carroll
Like with others, I am confused as to how your comments relate to the topic? Is there a link you suggest, (if so, please say so). Or, did you post it here in error?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 09:07 PM

Marxist/Communist governments were responsible for the murder of more than 100,000,000 people in the 20th Century

Point numero uno. Bollocks. Give us yer evidence.

Point numero two. So what. Are you by any chance trying to pin a single one of those deaths on to atheism? Do be careful how you answer, now...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 09:05 PM

Stringsinger,

Criticizing a religion, political point of view, IMO is fair game. And, free speech certainly allows anyone to say just about anything they want. But, to get the most out of a two-way discussion,if that is what one is seeking, respecting the other person and their differing viewpoints and perspectives on the same topic helps. One should not forget that there are major differences on what is held "close to the hearts of people" as is tolerance to less than flattering (and even rude) side-comments.

It is clearly the choice of the participant. But, it is much more fruitful (for the participants and those on the sidelines) if people are civil and the discussion is interesting (versus ping pongstyle insults). Is being nice and considerate that difficult and does it really put that significant a limit on freedom of expression on a topic? (keep in muind I speak in generalities, and am not targeting you as posting in a nasty way).

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 08:25 PM

Ed, when dealing with criticism of ideas, someone is bound to take it personally.
Worrying about whether someone is going to get their feelings hurt for criticizing a religion, political point of view, etc. is just going to stifle free expression and create censorship. Someone is going to holler "ouch" no matter what you say.

I try to depersonalize criticism by separating the respect I have for a person from what they purport to believe. I don't have to respect what they believe if I find it questionable or wanting. I can still admire people with whom I disagree. There are a great many theological scholars who are intelligent on many issues, some are social activists whom I admire without having to buy their ideas, dogmas, beliefs, or what they purport to believe. I also happen to think that the Beatitudes in the bible are a testament toward cessation of hostilities and anti-war and I respect that without the other garbled messages of the King James.

There are Islamic and Judaic scholars who I can admire without having to buy either of their religions.

I actually think that "liberation theology" is a useful social movement whether I agree with the religious aspect of it or not. The same can be said for the Civil Rights movement spearheaded by Dr. King.

The old cliche, "actions speak louder than words" applies redundantly here.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 05:30 PM

Actually, you're wrong, Jim--the Marxist/Communists beat everybody else out-check this:
Murder by Communism. Again, and, as you, I don't take pleasure in pointing it out. You are right, however, to point out that they differed from their predecessors only in scale--

Also right with "The vast majority of the countries that called themselves "Marxist" wouldn't know what Marxism was if they were belted over the head with a copy of 'Anti-Duhring'" You could say the same of countries that call themselves "Christian"--and insert just about any serious Christian writings from "The Imitation of Christ", to St. Francis, to St. Thomas Aquinas--in fact, most "Christian Nations" don't even get "Thou Shalt not Kill"--

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 03:41 PM

"Marxist/Communist governments were responsible for the murder of more than 100,000,000 people in the 20th Century."
The track records of non-Marxist governments - USA, Chile (take your pick with most South American counties), Germany, Greece, the dying echoes of the British Empire, Israel.... (how far do you want to go), equalled that number and more.
Japanese people are still dying as a result of 2 atom bombs being dropped on industrial towns 60 odd years ago, and will be for generations to come.
Those countries that have 'shaken off the Marxist yoke' can hardly be said to have mended their ways - former Yugoslavia, Russia.
The record of pre-Castro Cuba, "America's open sewer", is hardly an enviable one.
It is often forgotten that Tolstoy was writing about the "Marxist Gulags!" some time in the middle of the 19th century.
Human rights abuses seem not to be respecters of political boundaries. Not trying to draw a compare, I don't hold a torch for any of them - just pointing out the realities of the situation.
The vast majority of the countries that called themselves "Marxist" wouldn't know what Marxism was if they were belted over the head with a copy of 'Anti-Duhring' anyway - think on't.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 02:40 PM

Working in in the marine field most of my life, I came across a few "maritime experts" (check the broad definition) who couldn't sail a toothpick across a peepot.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 02:27 PM

Well, that will be no loss , if you insist on being childish.But just a coupla things to blow you out of the water..again

Again you choose to misinterpret what I say: something people like you do when you are backed into a corner..
I did not say that you was a maritime expert, I said you posed as one;a completley differant job.

Again I would argue, being an ex mariner myself, that someone who uses "sailor" as a prefix would be a little more than a sailboat sailor.Even then it is apparent that you are not even that.You have to be something of a maritime expert to work a sailing boat.You would have to have a working knowlege of wind, time and tide. when to tack and reef; ergo an expert.

I consider myself and my navy collegues immensly insulted by your unguarded crass remark:"
"A sailor does not have to have any expertise to be called a sailor. He merely has to sail in a sailboat or be crew on a ship"

That is an insult of the highest order to anyone who has sailed in the forces or the mercantile marine as a crew member.

That remark has just cost you any credibillity you ever had in this post.Never mind you not reading my posts I want nothing more to do with you.You have been exposed as an imposter, live with it..if you can.
Edt.... that is true, however, they do not usually go around calling themselves "sailor" therefore what I have said still stands.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 02:08 PM

Marxist/Communist governments were responsible for the murder of more than 100,000,000 people in the 20th Century.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 01:37 PM

""I defy you or anyone to find anything in what I have said to be untrue and not based on fact.... can you?""


OK, since you issued the challenge:

I suspect one would not have to be a sailor to be a maritime expert?

How about that?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 01:32 PM

I defy you or anyone to find anything in what I have said to be untrue and not based on fact.... can you?

Yes I can Here you are, same post.

"the person who constantly poses as a maritime expert"

A sailor does not have to have any expertise to be called a sailor. He merely has to sail in a sailboat or be crew on a ship. I did not in any way pose as a maritime expert. Not once not even a little bit. Not ever. Not even in jest.

I have not been backed into a corner. I gave you a choice, Be friendly or not. If you hand merely been polite or just stopped being rabidly insulting, that would have worked as well. But you chose to be even more rude and more insulting. I have no reason to communicate with you.

from now on I won't be reading your posts.

Good bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 01:02 PM

My comments were not meant to be friendly.I do not know you and by the sound of you I dont want to.You have already legged yourself up by expecting me - a stranger - to guess at your claims to be a mariner.

You do not expect me to be friendly to some one who constantly, smugly insults my grammer and spelling and constantly insults me.
.
The same person who cannot answer a civil question

and the person who constantly poses as a maritime expert

"Friendly" is a word used by the exploiters, cake eaters, poodle fakers,primping posuers,crooked politicians,goons, yeggs and nautical knob heads when they find theirselves backed in a corner.

It is a hard world out there.

Being "friendly" is half arsed, ginger, woosy crap what you say to about your pussy cat or budgie.I stand by my comments, you may not like what I say but you cannot disagree with them.

I defy you or anyone to find anything in what I have said to be untrue and not based on fact.... can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 12:49 PM

"Marxism the true path"
Marxism is a Socio/political theory that doesn't demand faith - just analyis - nobody ever suggested that Moses brought down Marx's 'Theory of Surplus Value' from the top of Mount Sinai on tablets of stone. We are invited to analyse, not believe and accept without question.
Wonder where "the true path" came from; don't remember that from my dips into political economy.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 12:38 PM

""It's really hard for religious people to believe that atheists are "sincere in their views because being religious it's hard for them to think outside the "religious" box. If you believe something so passionately, it's hard to accept that everyone doesn't believe the same way.""


(I am kinda confused about where to post what, as there are a number of related threads and I posted something related on another one)

OK, What is puzzling is you seem to accept that there is a wide-spectrum of Athiests, but, at the same time find it difficult to believe there is also a wide spectrum of people who believe, to a varying degree, in a god.

I am not sure what you refer to as "religious people". Does it mean those who strongly adhere to a particular organized religion or religrous practice? If so, those are on the decline in Christianity (maybe, globally less so in other religions). Maybe there is a better way of characterizing those who believe in a god?

IMO, to get a more enlightened and insult-free discussion, people should show a bit more caution for "the feelings" of those they wish to carry on a respectful conversation. That is a fairly basic element of communication. Trying to stimulate people by talking down to them, demonizing them or acting as if they are stupid is a poor starting point.(that is a general observation, not pointed at you Stringsinger, or any other poster).

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 12:01 PM

Well concerned, You didn't make a great first impression on me either. Vague but insulting comments, more or less calling people on the thread stupid and "brain washed" When you ask me a question I figured you were looking for material for your insults. and like I said Most people knew already, You were a stranger and All I had ever seen you do it put people down and insult their views.

If that is all you want to do, make argumentative posts on religious threads, that is cool. But I don't want to spend time getting to know you. If you want to introduce yourself and be friendly, I will be friendly to you.

This sort of thing is not friendly.

>>>More half arsed, half baked pseudo intellectual claptrap.

Why dont you all get to grips with the fact that all this religan is a smoke screen put about by people who want to dominate you, and make you forget about the real issues.

I do have a sort of respect for people who follow one of the mainstream religions, you believe in the magical man/men/woman/women you believe in 'em aint up for question.

What I do find hard to get to grips with is some of you lot hedging your bets in case there is something in it.

How in the name of all reason can you call yourself an atheist and in the same breath believe in the brain washing mumbo jumbo of spirituallity and the oher dangerouse crap of telepathy.Ruses to part gullible cretins like you lot from their money.

The whole world is in a state of turmoil made by very rich people exploiting the majority.We dont make this any better by beleiving in this kind of brain washing.
Let us all combine together and try and make a differance

Marxism the true path. <<<

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 10:19 AM

Back to the subject. It's really hard for religious people to believe that atheists are sincere in their views because being religious it's hard for them to think outside the "religious" box. If you believe something so passionately, it's hard to accept that everyone doesn't believe the same way.

The "atheist" position is that religion historically has had too much influence in the behavior of mankind and has caused wars, witch-burning (both professed by John Wesley and Martin Luther), auto-de-fes, slavery, and authoritarian obedience at the expense of thinking for yourself. Atheists that I know respect the good deeds rather than the proclamations of religious folks. They also see inconsistencies in the holy books, The King James bible for example that is filled with contradictions and outdated laws.

You would have to turn the question around to see the futility of trying to answer it.
Are Christians really Christians or.........Are Muslims really Muslims or.......Are Catholics really Catholics or.................Are Jews really Jews or....................

The notion that people who are non-believers have some traumatic reason for leaving religion can't be generalized. Sometimes it's an intellectual "awakening" that has nothing to do with pain or suffering. That "awakening" might be questioned by those who can't grasp it because of their own prejudices but there are religious people who can accept this idea and still remain true to their "faith".

When someone writes a book that others find controversial, it doesn't mean that they are bullying others who may hold a different opinion. It's just their point of view and they have a right to express it as do the countless writers of books on theology have done.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 09:33 AM

I had to say it in a toon song

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 09:14 AM

OK, concerned. I was just wondering, as the "source of discourse" as it frequently stimulates my curiosity.

Anyway, the original thread questions seems to have been "blown offshore", as many similar topics "often will".

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 08:57 AM

No Problem Edt.I dont like pretentiouse people like Sailor Jerk.

I did ask him if he was a ral sailor as I was genuinely intrested.He has never answered me.This leads me to believe he is a nauitical fraud.

Dont forget he started this by smugly picking on me:

Concerned

Copy and paste the above please. Would you like directions to grammar websites and on-line dictionaries?

You are not related to pete by any chance?

This is only the start of a whole raft of insulting patronisng remarks about me.

And like many of his ilk he has no sense of humour

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 08:43 AM

A little techy aint we? There is no need to shout. You really need to lighten up.

I told you I was no moralist,only a lonely old biddy whose husband had his unit blown of in Afghanistan.

I realy dont need any help with gently teasing you. You rise to the bait with unfailling, some would say predictable, regularity.

Ease the wheel Barnacle Balls, as we used to say in the WRENS.

You being an old salt wont need an explanation fo the last bit, unless you are the fraud we all suspect you to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 08:36 AM

Guest, I am curious as to why you are so "concerned" as to whether Jack is "every inch a sailor", or not, and why that would be important to the thread topic?

If it consoles, I can assure you that it is "not true" that ""only sailors get blown offshore"" :)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 08:06 AM

Now concerned, Musky said he was stuffing them. He is on the other side of the Atlantic any and all of my information on his "unit" is from seeing the object of its affection in a grocery freezer.

"There are circumstances when adultery is the only option."

Do you mean the only option other than fidelity, celibacy, masturbation and divorce?

Or in the case single people cheating with married people FINDING ANOTHER SINGLE PERSON!!!

Now that I've helped you with that dilemma, maybe we can help you with your verbal buffoonery of making fun of my made up nickname.

Are you game my little hen?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 07:50 AM

Oh dear! now the ancient mariner is into chickens as well as checking out the size of mens units.Is there no end to this mans sexual buffoonery.

I do strongly object to his moral stance on adutery though.There are circumstances when adultery is the only option.But there again I am not known for a moralist. Unlike self opiniated, salt stained Sailor Jerk.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 04:44 AM

It was set in Glasgow M~ there were 6 or 7 women characters but only the two prostitutes were called "hen" and only by one another.

I wondered if it was a "professional" thing. Have you seen "the book group?"

Musket, Adultery is immoral. It should be avoided. I am glad you agree! But I am concerned well, not the "concerned" on this thread! mind you. I am concerned for you. You seem to be saying that your manhood is not even sufficient for a full sized chicken?? So sad, so sad. Lucky for the chicken though.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 02:32 AM

looks lie barnacle balls has finally lost it.What in hades name had his last drivel had to do with this post?.lLke most of his iarrogant llk h has bo idea of the regional accebts in the uk..For w so called nautical cove he has no idea of the distance between cornwall sotland and york..Get a grip you nautical imposter afore some real sailor shows you the golden rivit!!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 10:30 AM

I think that I am sincere in what I express. I don't know everything of course. I can only act upon what I have learned in these seventy odd years on the planet. Defending all atheists is too big a job for anyone since many of them disagree with each other. As far as independent thinkers go, it would be like herding cats.

When ideas are criticized, some people react as if it were a personal attack. I try to avoid ad hominem as best I can, not always successfully, but for the sake of dialogue and informational exchange, I try to dodge the brickbats and keep the focus of the discussion in view.

Atheists (the term needs a better definition) is a relatively new idea since it has been suppressed for so long historically. It comes into focus since more people today are leaving organized religion in this country than are joining it. Church attendance is low and there are very good reasons for that. One is dogmatism and another intolerance for any idea outside the box of religion. Also, homophobia, and the rise of women's equality is important. The King James bible enslaves women.

I admire Dawkins because he retains an investigative and scientifically open mind. The "delusion" part is really asking a question, how much of religion is predicated on reality.
It has nothing to do with demonizing anyone although it is taken that way by many religious people. For years the term atheist has been used to demonize and brand anyone critical of religion and it has been turned around by a form of psychological projection toward atheists particularly by the branding canard of "new atheism". There is nothing new about non-belief except that today people are not necessarily burnt at the stake for this view and able to express it which I think is a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 09:15 AM

Yes Jack. We are all heathen buggers and shag chickens. Mainly because unlike sex with other humans it isn't seen by God botherers as adultery so we can still go to heaven.

Its clucking good whichever way you look at it. Brings a new meaning to henpecked.

Out of interest, what was most important to your understanding. Scottish or prostitute?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 08:49 AM

"Hen" is a Glasgow, or perhaps Scottish in general, familiar term of address to a woman, equivalent to "mate" for a man {which I don't think has an English female equivalent, except perhaps the rather patronising "dear"}. I learnt this from Robin Hall way back in the 1950s.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 08:10 AM

I saw a Scottish TV show on Netflix about prostitutes. They were calling each other "hen." Is that common throughout the UK? Even in places like York or Cornwall?

What exactly is a Cornish game hen?

If it is what I think it is, what are those little birds I have been stuffing?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 07:49 AM

You sound a lot like Lizzie Cornish now, concerened.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 10 Apr 13 - 07:40 AM

Ahhhhhhhhhhh Diddums den..did the naughty man call you nasty names den? You dont like it when boots on 'tother foot do yer?

looks like stringsinger has found your measure Cap'n Fraud!!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Apr 13 - 05:57 PM

Stringsinger. I've made my points about Dawkins clearly and consistently. You choose to ignore them and attack me anyway. You are wasting my time. You have been defending him? He is a hero of yours? Why after so many posts and threads are you just getting around to this instead of pretending to protect all atheists?

You have not been honest. You have not been sincere.

Just go read your Dawkins and enjoy it. Your calling me Capt. Ahab won't change anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Apr 13 - 05:34 PM

I don't feel persecuted. As for knocking anything off, I have as much right to my opinion as jack does and to express it here on Mudcat. I really am not trying to win any argument here but when I see a hero of mine such as Dawkins attacked and misinterpreted, I really have to speak up in his behalf.

Atheism is another example of misunderstood positions. There are atheists who are dogmatic and foolish because they are human. That doesn't mean that someone with a differing opinion shouldn't express it. When this discussion becomes about personalities and ad hominem, it should be corrected. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism have set themselves up as the only religion and way to think, thereby it is necessary to criticize them without taking the criticism personally.

If the discussion is about the religion and not the person who either believes or disbelieves, then some value is offered.

Christianity has gone through many cycles of historical change even before Constantine.
It has been reinterpreted and misinterpreted starting with ignorant (unread) scribes through agenda-driven clerics. Most of the disciples who reputedly wrote in the bible wrote their pieces when the historical mythical Jesus was dead according to latest historical records. Jesus isn't mentioned, for example, in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The King James edition was written to keep the various warring factions of religion from being at each other's throats. So what is Christianity? It appears to be a historical hodge-podge.
The same can be said for other supposedly holy books. Their value is only predicated on whether you believe them to be true accounts.

All this said, I think the Beatitudes have something of value to say. Their implication in the parables are decidedly anti-war. The quotes attributed to Jesus in the King James are contradictory in other parts of the bible.   Some of the rules about selling daughters into slavery are ridiculous and dangerous when you consider that slavery in the US in the 1800's was predicated on religious beliefs.

It is significant that Thomas Jefferson, a slave-holder, excised many nutty parts of the King James and it published it as the Jefferson bible.

I am making no personal attacks, here and attempting to keep away from ad-hominem.

The reason that this thread is ambiguous is that the definitions of atheism vary depending on the nature of the criticism.   I maintain that all it really means is non-belief and whenever that is expressed, it engenders hostility by the "faithful".

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Apr 13 - 12:16 PM

Knock it off Frank. No one is persecuting you.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Apr 13 - 10:54 AM

"Materialism" is another buzz word thrown around by religious people to make non-believers somehow "unholy" because they reject "spiritual values". It's propaganda.

"Materialism" and atheism are ambiguous because you can't be one without the other in the religious playbook. But they basically are the same in that if there is no god (which I think is mostly true although again you can't prove a negative), then believing that death is final and the decomposing of bodies is inevitable, that's not "materialism", that's science.

"Materialism" is one of those words that is associated by religious people as being a component of financial greed or money or thing worship.

People who have no tolerance for atheism don't get this.

Yes, this thread is ambiguous.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Apr 13 - 10:36 AM

The Tremeloes - Silence is Golden

Hey concerned!

If you think that you are preempting another Holocaust by badgering me about my nickname, far be it from me to stand in the way of such a noble cause.

On the other hand, if you actually want to know for some other reason than increasing your repertoire of insults.

You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 09 Apr 13 - 10:25 AM

last post was me

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 13 - 10:22 AM

In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me —
and by that time no one was left to speak up.


Pastor Martin Niemoller

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Apr 13 - 09:51 AM

""You have not converted a man because you have silenced him"". John Morle



""Silence is sometimes the severest criticism"'. Charles Buxton

""In human intercourse the tragedy begins, not when there is misunderstanding about words, but when silence is not understood"". Henry David Thoreau


""Silence is the safest response for all the contradiction that arises from impertinence, vulgarity, or envy"'. Johann Georg von Zimmermann

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 09 Apr 13 - 08:47 AM

bit o'thread creep musket old bean..think you are talkng about the demise of that splendid statesperson Baroness Thatcher lol!.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 09 Apr 13 - 08:32 AM

I would like to be a Christian for a minute so I can believe in heaven and hell.

Basically because I hope St Peter told the old bitch to bugger off and Hell has s pit waiting for her. And she won't be able to shut this one.

Ok. I've stopped being a Christian now.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 09 Apr 13 - 06:21 AM

Of course there is a point Edt.

Dont think Barnacle Bill the pseudo sailorman gets it though.