Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 05:55 AM

Ignoring the usual tirade of twists and turns from Mr W (wouldn't it be easier just to admit you were wrong and then we could all move on?), as far as I can make out the news was announced just before 11am on 08.04.13. In other words, the evil woman has been dead for exactly one whole week!

Whoopee!

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 06:11 AM

Sorry, Fred, but you are just not getting it. Don was simply querying, as was I, as to why you had suddenly, and with no motivation or stimulus, jumped self-defensively on to a thread on which you had not been attacked, or even mentioned. He hasn't made any mistake or been 'wrong' about anything, just suggested a possible answer to a reasonable question WHICH YOU HAVE SO FAR AVOIDED ANSWERING. You are, so far as that goes, the one who is 'wrong'. So why don't you 'just' answer ~~~ if you can spare the valuable time from your silly old 'whoopees'. What do you think you are ~ a trick cushion? ☺☺☺

~M~

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 07:51 AM

You're right M. I don't get it - the apology that is. It's a good thing I'm not in the habit of holding my breath.

Whoopee? You dare to criticise me for using the word whoopee? Considering some of the ludicrous baby-talking terminology you've splashed all over this forum, that is pretty damned rich.

What is an icky-wickle duckling andyway?. Is it anything like an icky·wicky·bitty-self, honeybun?

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 08:19 AM

Relax, Fred. Is it really worth all this animus, honestly?

~M~

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 10:06 AM

M. Come off it. You're the one who throws a wobbler when any of his sacred cows is attacked.

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 11:03 AM

OK, then ~~ so answer the question ---

···why you suddenly, and with no motivation or stimulus, jumped self-defensively on to a thread on which you had not been attacked, or even mentioned, and started laying into me···

Nothing to do with sacred cows, or whoopie cushions, or icky-wickles, or whevs. It is just odd behaviour in anybody's book ~ isn't it? ~ which you really should explain. So why don't you?

~M~

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 11:06 AM

... I mean, that is what I would call 'throwing a wobblie'. I don't throw such things myself, tho I might just occasionally indulge in rational and coherent disputation!...

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Penny S.
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 11:17 AM

Can I draw people's attention to the Matching Thatcher's Funeral thread, where something useful migh tbe accomplished.

Penny

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Stu
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:12 PM

They're silencing Big Ben for the funeral. This is taking the piss. Are they trying to rub everybody's nose in it? Streuth.

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:37 PM

I note that the police have stated that protesters are allowed to turn their backs as the coffin passes. SINCE WHEN DID WE NEED PERMISSION FOR THAT? WHAT HAS BECOME OF THIS COUNTRY?

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Jim McLean
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:58 PM

Ding dong dell,
Thatcher's gone to Hell.
Who put her there,
Who the F###k cares,
Who'll pull her out,
Nobody's about.
She made the poor, she made the rich
A callous, greedy, Ding Dong Witch.
Now Big Ben's quiet, no more Ding Dong
So let us all unite in song ..
Ding Dong the Witch is dead!

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:59 PM

I'd be rather cheered if some proper rioting broke out, something for the history books to record to show that all this disgustingly expensive show of pomp and circumstance of was not welcomed or wanted.

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Stu
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 02:03 PM

"SINCE WHEN DID WE NEED PERMISSION FOR THAT?"

Since this delightful piece of legislation. Sections 4 and 5 allow coppers to arrest people at will, under conditions that are open to individual interpretation to say the least. It was amended after an outcry and the word 'insulting' was taken out, but the rest remains and it id deliberately ambiguous.

The police force we have now was born under Thatcher during the miner's strike and the assault on travellers and their families at The Battle of the Beanfield (which was more of a 'coppers smack some hippies about' than a battle). The paramilitarisation of the police continued under all subsequent governments until we've arrived at this fiasco. They are now a tool for imposing the will of the oligarchy rather than a service dedicated to protecting the rights of all citizens. More's the pity too.*



* I know there are good coppers, that's not the point.

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 02:20 PM

I realise that apologising isn't flavour of the month with certain parties to this thread. Nevertheless, I feel I must tender an apology to anyone who has been bored out of their skull by the cyberspacial intercourse between MtheGM and I.

I can only reach an approximate surmisal as to what might be rattling M's cage, although it's probably the usual one of hands off our establishment figures.

However, those of us who grew up on Merseyside, with no arses to our kecks (thats trousers to you M) and malnourished by a diet of blind scouse and dripping butties, have been partying non-stop since 11am "last Monday morning" (as Leadbelly and Iron Head Baker were wont to sing).

Normal service might be resumed - eventually.

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 02:37 PM

Good point Stu. The fact that the person intended to be insulted is dead (using the term "person" loosely) is not a defence, as some of the twats who pretend that she had virtues or deserved respect are bound to think themselves insulted.

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 03:12 PM

Stu is absolutely correct, and the introduction of a police state is something else we have to thank Thatcher for.

A couple of interesting examples.

When David Cameron dared to show his face in Liverpool recently, the dozen or so protesters who had gathered to greet him, had the Public Order Act read at them, while they were peacefully assembling, and before Cameron had got anywhere near the place.

I recently helped occupy one of the Liverpool branches of Starbucks. This was at the height of the scandal over the taxes which this ratbag multi-billion pound rganisation weren't paying. Again, the protest was entirely peaceful. In fact, long story, but some of the women protesters had organised a creche, so there were quite a few babies and toddlers present. So that's how violent it was. Nevertheless, I was approached by a police inspector, as the presumed "leader" (I wasn't the leader, presumed or otherwise) and told that if we didn't disperse, we would be arrested for aggravated trespass. On what grounds? Well, according to this inspector, we were intimidating the staff. I remarked that I'd never seen a bunch of workers who looked less like shitting themselves in my entire life. He said "Ah but you haven't seen the girl who's out in the back crying". For a moment I was rather discomforted and asked if I could go and offer her a word of comfort and an apology (that word again), because the last thing any of us wanted was to cause any distress to the underpaid and overworked employees of Starbucks. They weren't our target. Of course I couldn't talk to her. She didn't exist.

On another occasion, I and a small number of others were getting ready to protest at the local government cuts. The area where we assembled was on a public thoroughfare, and it was was far too wide to cause any inconvenience to passers by, or to the objects of our protest (a conference being held in a building across the way). We were told by a police sergeant this time that, unless we stood inside the spot they'd designated for us, they would escort us away from the area. No, we hadn't broken any law, but our presence was intimidating the staff inside the building!!!

The paramilitarisation of the police is just one more reason why the party started immediately the news of Thatcher's death broke, and why it will continue until her name is buried for ever more.

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 05:12 PM

"Nevertheless, I feel I must tender an apology to anyone who has been bored out of their skull by the cyberspacial intercourse between MtheGM and I".should be 'me'. ~M~
.,,.
I associate myself with that; pausing only to point out that F's paranoid irruption on to the thread to defend himself against an attack which had never occurred, and also his apparent invitation to shoot Jewish refugees ['useful for target practice'], remain unexplained despite repeated requests from others as well as me.

With cage entirely unrattled ~

~M~

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 07:14 PM

I am sure that an awful lot of people feel very insulted and offended at this carnival of a funeral for Thatcher. But somehow I doubt very much if those responsible will have their collars felt.

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 07:14 PM

I am sure that an awful lot of people feel very insulted and offended at this carnival of a funeral for Thatcher. But somehow I doubt very much if those responsible will have their collars felt.

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 10:11 PM

Or did I just mix up two different previous discourses? Feel I might have done. Oh, well; take which bits apply & forget the rest.

Back to bed. Heigh-ho!

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 12:55 AM

Let us also remember that Thatcher was up to her neck in support for Pol Pot.

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 05:28 AM

""Ignoring the usual tirade of twists and turns from Mr W (wouldn't it be easier just to admit you were wrong""

If it will stop your ad hominem I'll admit that I was wrong, even though I have only YOUR word that I was.

You know my name. Kindly use it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 05:36 AM

""I note that the police have stated that protesters are allowed to turn their backs as the coffin passes. SINCE WHEN DID WE NEED PERMISSION FOR THAT? WHAT HAS BECOME OF THIS COUNTRY?""

I think that their point is that such action is all that will be allowed Richard.

Turning up with a sack full of half bricks will probably be frowned on, so I wouldn't bother if I were you.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 06:02 AM

Thatcher's legacy - a government that is prepared to use the murder of six children to cut unemployment benefits
"Thatcher ain't dead...." as the song would have said if its composer was still alive.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 06:34 AM

Michael Grosvenor Myer has accused me of issuing some kind of "apparent invitation to shoot Jewish refugees ['useful for target practice']". See above.

That is an outrageous lie. I am not, never have been and never will be anti-semitic in any way shape or form. I have never been party to any form of discrimination whatsoever, whether it be on the basis of race, religion, class, sexual orientation, gender or anything else.

Unlike Mr Grosvenor Myer, I spend a considerable part of my life fighting racism and fascism and all forms of bigotry, and have been abused, spat at and physically threatened on many occasions by the so called hard men of the far right. Even so, I have no intention of giving in to them and will continue campaigning until I am dead or until fascism has been buried completely under the rubble of history.

I am not going to waste my time demanding an apology from this creep. I shall just warn him that if we ever come face to face, he will be extremely sorry.

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 06:58 AM

mrs thatchers maternal grand mother was a kerrywoman, who emigrated to england to escape poverty.cest plus ca change.

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 07:56 AM

Don, have another look at the '86 Act.

In a place that was not a police state I would not be potentially subject to arrest if I turned up with a placard accusing the bitch of complicity with Pol Pot, or shouted "Burn in hell, bitch" as the coffin passed.

Time to face up to what she did.

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 08:17 AM

A question I have been asking myself lately and although with trepidation, thought it worth asking as part of this debate. (After all, once you stop smiling at Fred saying how he hates fascism and then threatens MtheGM with violence should they meet, you are minded to move the conversation on a bit.)

What is worse.   A conservative government that is incompetent and has no way of seeing through policies or a socialist government with the drive and determination of Thatcher?

It's just that not liking tory ideology and not being enamoured by Thatcher needs unpicking.   Many right wing people hated her approach but admired her outcomes. Many left wing people hated her outcomes but admired her approach.

I hated her for what she did in my community. My pit is shut my industry gone. Even now, despite the many and varied answers I could give, professionally I say I am an ex miner.

Yet rather than jump on the ding dong wagon, I am far more interested in learning from history. Is it strong leadership we need or be fearful of? Is it her approach, ideals or outcomes we need to reject?

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 08:23 AM

Fred ~~ I withdrew that statement, admitting to having confused two discourses 15 apr 1011pm. Mixed you up with Jim, can't remember why. Sorry!!!

I should nevertheless appreciate not being threatened at my age with physical violence, if you wouldn't mind too much. Don't think I should be a match for a young fellow like you at the age of 81.

~M~

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 08:24 AM

Still no answer from Jim on that one, mind, is there?

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 08:35 AM

in answer to musket, what we need to be fearful of are political decisions that are made without considering the best interests of the country, political decisions that are made as acts of vengeance, political decisions that mean the country is at the mercy of another country when it comes to providing a nation with fuel/ energy.

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 08:39 AM

"useful for target practice"
This is apparently a reference to an ironic remark I made on the Israeli regime's tendency to massacre refugees (and everyone else who happened to get in their expansionist way) and that regimes having a number of refugees on their territory - "handy for target practice" was my ironic comment.
Can't see what connection it has with this subject - but then again, I do have a life outside this forum!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:48 AM

Agreed that it is a bit irrelevant to this thread, Jim. But, having infiltrated ~~ Have you not yet got into your peculiarly, on this occasion, numb skull, that it was Jewish refugees who were at issue at the time. So whom were you accusing of being likely to find them 'useful for target practice'?

Eh? Numskull!

~M~

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 09:50 AM

'a reference to an ironic remark ' ...
.,,.
It was that idiocy on your part that was really the irony!

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 10:12 AM

"But, having infiltrated"
Is that how you see passing an opinion - spoken like a true Thatcherite
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 10:28 AM

But there again - were all "the enemy within" to the lady in the box, weren't we?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Apr 13 - 10:33 AM

You certainly were, Jim ~~ possibly due to your exquisite talent for evading whatever might be the particular topic under discussion ~~ as here!

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Rog Peek
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 12:26 PM

I understand Thatcher was to be cremated today.

Mmmmmmmmm.... so that's twice then.

Rog

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Rog Peek
Date: 17 Apr 13 - 12:33 PM

After she's had tea with her bosom pal Augusto of course!

Rog

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:24 AM

Here's some
footage from the celebrations in Liverpool last night. It doesn't include the moment when the crowd immolated Maggy's effigy, but it sure was worth seeing.

In any event, forget what the accompanying article says about 100 people attending the party. There were at least five times that number, as anybody who knows the size of St George's Plateau will testify.

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:48 AM

"possibly due to your exquisite talent for evading whatever might be the particular topic under discussion"
You seem to be still trying to make something of nothing - assuming you are still referring to my 'target practice" statement which was, as you have pointed out, down to my being a "numbskull" and, wrongly apparently, believing it was Palestinians who were the refugees being referred to, hence, giving the Israeli history of massacring such people, were fair game for Israeli target practice.
"Evasion" comes a bit rich from somebody who refuses to comment of the late and not very lamented lady's friendship, admiration and successful attempt to help a mass murderer and war criminal evade justice.
I evade nothing Mike, nor do I advocate or excuse war crimes - don't you and your moron mate wish you could claim the same?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:07 AM

Keep going with your everlasting characteristic name-calling, Jim, which you appear to confuse with rational argument*. Your tendentious fatuities are liable to choke up your intellect entirely before you have done.

~M~

* just as you appear to confuse me with someone who might give a tinker's cuss what you think.

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:27 AM

'Namecalling"
"Numskull", "fatuities" v "moron" (addressed elsewhere) - you're one up on me Mike.
Wouldn't have thought you'd have thought "Thatcherite" namecalling, though most here certainly would.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 12:50 PM

Mrs Thatcher won!....get used to it.

You want a capitalist system, Maggie was the only one who could make it competitive. She tackled the problem of our obsolete manufacturing sector and working practices... she offered the bait that proved the "lefty liberals" were complete hypocrites(Right to Buy)
She made the Labour Party remove the word "socialism" from their vocabulary(shameful bastards).
Blair ditched the principles of the founders of Labour, in exchange for a few years in power, polishing and de-odourising the Capitalist brand, even taking us into a war that nobody wanted except poodle Blair himself,(criminal)

Save your odium for the guilty on your own side Jim

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:22 AM

"Save your odium for the guilty on your own side Jim"
What side would that be Ake? - I stopped voting altogether when New Labour was revealed as Old Thatcherism with a new label.
Yet to hear a peep of criticism from the pros for her support for the "democratic" mass murderer - silence says it all really
Of course, you've always gone in for that sort of thing, haven't you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:49 AM

You want a capitalist system, Maggie was the only one who could make it competitive. She tackled the problem of our obsolete manufacturing sector and working practices.

Margaret Thatcher's 1979 election campaign's main theme was that Britain wasn't working under Labour, accompanied by a poster depicting a dole queue. After four years in power, she had almost tripled Labour's unemployment rate, and it was still virtually double Labour's rate by the end of her regime. On top of that she put an extra two million people out to grass on permanent "incapacity benefit", mostly in mining, steel or shipbuilding towns. Most of those people were not incapacitated at all, but that was a convenient way of making the unemployment figures, terrible as they already were, not look totally apocalyptic, which is what they were. There was a recession at each end of her rule. She never achieved growth of more than 2.2% at best. At the end of her reign, inflation was still at almost ten percent and mortgage rates were around 14 percent. The gap between rich and poor widened, as did the pay gap between men and women. Margaret Thatcher deregulated the City to such an extent that even some right-wing Tories were gobsmacked, and that deregulation (sadly, never addressed by Blair/Brown) led directly to the irreponsible behaviour that got us into the present mess and which cost the taxpayer hundreds of billions in order to bale out your precious capitalism. Still, ake, never mind. You don't want facts to be getting in the way of your prejudice, do you?

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:32 AM

Mrs Thatcher won!....get used to it.

So did Mr Hitler in 1933!....get used to it!

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:44 AM

And so has Mr Godwin, eh?

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:29 AM

Now The, I was simply making the point (as you do have to do with ake...simply...) that to win is not automatically to be the good guy. Incidentally, Mr Godwin refuted his "law" many years ago.

Subject: RE: Obit: Margaret Thatcher Dead (1925-2013)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:17 PM

The fact that he might have contradicted himself doesn't mean his law was 'refuted'. It remains true, as you have just demonstrated. Not but what your point is a perfectly fair & valid one. But then so was Ake's. As I never tire of saying, all you lot over there call yourselves believers in democracy, but then throw a fit of the vapours when anyone not on your 'approved' list gets in. That is, of course, the paradox of democracy, which is precisely as Mr Lincoln described it. The other great paradox is that the Lefties claim themselves motivated by love of humanity, but are consumed with obsessive hatred of practically all actual humans.

~M~