What makes a new song a folk song?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 03:56 AM

"a song has to be transmitted and re-distributed orally,"
A SONG CAN BE TRANSMITTED ORALLY - IN PRINT - VIA ELCTRONIC RECORDING - THROUGH FILM..... IN ANY WAY YOU CAN THINK OF THAT ONE PIECE OF INFORMATION PASSES FROM ONE PERSON TO ANOTHER - AND STILL BECOME A FOLK SONG.
At one time, and in certain communities, people were making songs, passing them on by whatever means they had to hand, and other people were taking them up, singing them and taking ownership of them, so that a song that may have originated in, say Norfolk, could end up in Somerset, or Lancashire or Cumbria, or any part of Ireland or Scotland, and become a Somerset or Lancastrian..... or wherever it happened to land song - the new recipients would regard it as theirs, as speaking for them, as being part of their history - it would become part of their voice just as much as it was the voice of the original creator.
That is part of how folk songs were created and that is what is no longer happening.
A song made today remains the property of the creator - it continues to bear his/her name, quite often it carries an instruction that if you want to make it generally known, you have to pay for the privilege of doing so.
Nowadays, even if you sing a newly made song in a club, or even a song created a couple of centuries ago, the club has to pay a P.R.S or I.M.R.O. levy.
Folk songs were public property - no individual claimed ownership of them, in most cases nobody even knew who created them - they were virtually all anonymous.
It is still possible for folk songs to be created where the circumstances are still in existence.
The Irish Travellers we recorded in London were still making songs concerning their lives and experiences as late as the late 1980s - they possibly still are, though the urbanisation and the loss of the old trades make that less and less likely as the communities dissipate into houses "The old ways are changing".
We recorded several - in none of the cases we could not find who made them.
Children were making songs until recently - I don't hear of or see many of them skipping or bouncing balls, those activities which led to the creation of songs - there may be a song tradition arising from mobile phones, but I've yet to hear of it.
Football chants have some claim to being 'folk' - I personally don't find them particularly interesting or artistically creative, they don't say much other than "We are the greatest".
There was a great new song-making tradition in the 50s and 60s with The Aldermaston Marches and the Holy Loch Protests - songs being created on the spot and passed down the marches - doesn't happen now.
Some new songs have taken teetering steps towards becoming folk - we've recorded Freeborn Man and Shoals of Herring from Travellers on several occasions - their becoming folk songs depends entirely on the Travellers and any other community who might take them up retaining a living tradition capable of transmitting songs so they become everybody's property other than just the composers'.
I'm delighted that people are still making songs using the old forms - I've just been looking at Eric Winter's 'Flowers of Manchester and remembering the first time I heard it sung at Terry Whelan and Harry Boardman's club in Manchester all those years ago - it moved the audience to tears, including me (and I detest football) .
It should have become a folk song but it didn't - ir remains Eric Winter's great song - I haven't even heard it sung for forty years.
Another song, by Pete Smith, a shop steward from Manchester who wrote about his experiences working in the factory which manufactured dyestuffs for the textile industry - had all the elements to become a folksong - most people have never heard of it - can find no trace of it.   
The process that once created folk songs no loner exists, the opportunity for us to claim songs that other people wrote as our own no longer exists, if we want to issue them electronically, we have to pay for the privilege, even if we sing them at clubs, there is now a good chance that we will have to pay for the privilege of doing so, the bulk of which will disappear into the bank accounts of The Rolling Stones, The Beatles or the Michael Jackson estates.   
The revival democratised and freed up a wonderful corpus of song and music for us all to perform and listen to and claim as our own - that has now been replaced by a dwindling number of venues which might or might not present folk songs, but the tendency seems to be as far away from that music as you can possibly imagine.
MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND
I'm not entirely satisfied with the existing definition, but at least I have something to point to and say - "that's what I mean".
I have hundreds and books and albums I can direct people to who might be interested and say, "that's where to look if you want to read or listen to folk songs".
If somebody wants a fairly comprehensive list of them, I'd direct them to the Roud index - most of them are covered there.
Hopefully, before the end of the year our County library will put up on their website, 400 plus songs we have recorded over the last 40 years in this area, many of them containing the social and political (and sometimes personal) history of the people who lived here
Over the last year I have been taking in masses of information about the place I now live in and the people who once lived here, just by annotating the songs.   
The people we met were incredibly generous in giving us their songs, many of them became life-long friends - we now have been given the opportunity of returning those songs to where they really belong - a great privilege.
If the songs are taken up and sung, if song manages to become as popular here as traditional music has become, it will mean that the songs will survive for the forseeable future, as entertainment and as as an essential part of the unwritten history of West Clare.
I'm a bit chuffed about that
Jim Carroll

THE CLAYTON ANILINE SONG
Pete Smith, Mancester mid 1960s

1 Been working at dyework for nearly five years ,
Been charging the naptha's that give yer the **pap,
They send it from *ICKY for us to shove in
This **vitrol and chloric as makes us all thin.

2 Well I rise up for Clayton at five in the morn,
And for smoke and for fumes, yer can't see the dawn,
I'm releivin' old Albert, he's been here all night,
The poor old bugger looks barely alive.

3   His chest is sunk in and his belly's popped out out,
And believe me, my friends,! t's not bacco or stout –
It's the **napthas and paras have rotted his bowels,
While making bright colours for Whitsuntide clothes.

4 I gave him my ****milk ration and packed him off home,
I' ve five tons of this naphtha to charge on me own,
I'm wet through with steam and the sweat of me back
And through wieldin' this shovel, I'm beginning to crack.

5 Well I'm damned if I'll work in this hole any more,
For my belly feels tight and my chest is right sore-
I think of old Albert his face white and drawn,
He'll be back here tonight and just prayin' for dawn.

*    I.CI.- Imperial Chemical Industries nicknamed "ICKEY'
**   Chemicas for dye-making
**   Paploma of the bowel – cancer caused by fumes from dyestuff    manufacture
**** A pint of milk was given to each worker each day to 'ward off' cancer.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 04:09 AM

Another great post, Jim. Many thanks for all your input here. And a fine song indeed. Is it set to any specific tune, or was tune original?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 04:30 AM

No tune I can compare it to but I thin I have a notated version in one of our old 'New City Songsters' if anybody wants a copy.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 04:47 AM

i have never heard anyone sing the clayton analine song, it is a well written song but does not appear to have been taken up by the non folk general public,so is it a folk song? it appears to be written in folk style, butwhy has it not been taken up, in the same way that dirty old town or fiddlers green has been.
"Nowadays, even if you sing a newly made song in a club, or even a song created a couple of centuries ago, the club has to pay a P.R.S or I.M.R.O. levy"
incorrect,again.
if the song is trad, the arrangement may be copyrighted but not the song, but that is up to the performer, it is voluntary and the amount is not worth claiming for, likewise new songs it is up to the composer, 99per cent do not bother, because the performers know it could jeopardise the future of the club, because by doing so the prs team go round and ask for more money from the publican. as a professional performer I can speak from experience on this one, the vast majority of perfprmers ignore it because they know that the pittance they get and the upset it causes to the publican is not worth the threatened closure of the club. nearly all singer song writers do not bother unless it is an arts centre or radio or tv, that is what happens in reality.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 05:17 AM

"taken up by the non folk general public,so is it a folk song? it appears to be written in folk style, but why has it not been taken up, in the same way that dirty old town or fiddlers green"
,..,

Not too sure I agree with your ground here, Dick. Those two songs, and some others one could name [see thru the thread] will certainly be known to all folk-club-going people such as readers of this forum. But do you really think there are any members of your "non folk general public" who would recognise them by mention -- even if they had happened maybe just once or twice to hear them on tv or radio? I honestly don't think so. Does anyone?

≈M≈

Or any other song familiar to our interests either, for that matter, with exception maybe of ones they learned at school, or one or two others in the smallish [for true folk] "everybody knows" category like eg "My Bonny" or "Loch Lomond" or "Oh No John" (and this last one, not even in a version we would acknowledge, at that!).

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 05:27 AM

To revert to the original question, there seems to be no hard and fast rule over what might be regarded as 'folk' in the wider sense. Songs written in a style which reflects traditional styles seem to qualify without much disagreement (even from Jim!). Other songs seem to pass muster if they are performed in a recognisably 'folky' style (let's not discuss what that means!), even pop songs in some circumstances.

Established folk performers seem to be permitted a bit more latitude than mere floorsingers. I don't recall ever hearing Elvis covers, but Nic Jones would play Buddy Holly, in his own style of course. Swan Arcade did a cracking version of the Kinks' 'Lola'. June Tabor's version of 'Love will tear us apart' is approached no differently from her band's arrangements of both modern songs with a more folky pedigree or traditional ballads. Of course, in all these cases these form part of a much broader repertoire which included traditional songs.

It's an aesthetic judgement rather than something which can fall within a definition. What a performer can get away with will depend on the ethos of the club and the tastes of the audience. The same goes of course for treatments of traditional songs.

I think what is usually expected from such songs is that the lyrics should be intelligent (and intelligible) and make a point or carry a message, and often have a narrative. This would seem to rule out a lot of pop songs, no matter how they are performed.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 06:02 AM

yes,
here in ireland they have both been taken up by the general public, as has caledonia, they are almost as well known as the wild rover. fiddlers green on several occasions has been entered in gaa scors the singers assuming its irish trad and even the judges not disqualifying it because its english contemporary, its assumed like shaols of erin[sic] that itsd trad

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 06:05 AM

fields of athenry , has all of the above attributes but has the bonus that it is sung by football crowds ,definitely a new song thats become folk song.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 06:34 AM

Jim, so we're happy to deviate from 1954 which does specify 'oral' to allow modern forms of transmission, yes?

So the only issue we're left with then if I'm understanding correctly, is ownership. Am I over simplifying what you've said by saying that a new song can become 'folk' if we don't know who wrote it and other people sing it?

Now to my way of thinking, our modern songwriters, whilst living in a very different society, are really no different to songwriters of 300 years ago. The only difference is that means of transmission.

When our songwriter of 300 years ago wrote their song, they were not writing 'folk' music, because the term had not been coined, but merely writing a song, which brings me back to my belief that 'folk music' is a term we have created to identify or catagorise that 'style' of song. Therefore, I come back to my belief that if a new song is of that 'style', respects and acknowledges the tradition upon which it is based, then there is no issue with calling it a 'folk' song, regardles of knowing who wrote it.

John

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 06:48 AM

By the way, Jim, meant to say that I'm not quite sure of the relevance of the link to listings of so called 'folk metal' bands, but with that 'genre' it seems to me that the justification for using the word 'folk' is merely down to adding a 'traditional' instrument in to the mix and very little to do with the songs they are performing.

Very different to what I do with The Bounty Hounds, where the justification for using the term 'folk'/rock is that a large number of the songs we perform are ones that neither you or I would have difficulty in calling a 'folk' song ;)

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 08:04 AM

here are two more composed songs, rose of mooncoin, and slievenamon, both sung at football or hurling matches.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 08:13 AM

As for "knowing who wrote it," I have to agree with Lloyd's citation of a European collector (Bartok?) that, essentially, "a peasant pot is still a peasant pot even if we know the name of the potter."

Of course, if there are considerable and interesting variations, the name of the original potter/creator becomes moot, even if known.

On the other hand, the amount of verbal variation in most songs by known writers (say, "This Land is Your Land") is almost negligible.

That is especially true in societies like ours right now where people want to "do it just like the album" and love correcting you. Remember the other-thread controversy about whether Anais Mitchell sings "Carter Hall" or "Carterhaugh"? Really, why should anyone care?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 08:36 AM

"Jim, so we're happy to deviate from 1954 which does specify 'oral' to allow modern forms of transmission, yes"
This has never been an issue
If you read the '54 definition, it says:
"Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission."
The ambiguity of that statement is its Achilles heel - it is not clear whether the process is the result of oral transmission or the music itself - you can transmit song orally, you can't transmit music.
As far as we know, literacy has long played a part in the transmission of folk songs, so there is no great problem when music is transmitted in other ways.
It is not really a major part of its definition.
The important features of folk son as I see them are the fact that they belong to no-one, can be claimed and used by everyone as their own - certainly not the case with newly composed songs.
Probably the most important feature of folk songs is the fact that they are virtually all universal in their structure - anybody can identify with the situations they throw up in some way or other - it's why I believe the two modern songs I cited would be good 'folk' candidates.
I've never worked in a dye-works like Pete Smith did, but when I worked in London I dismantled literally hundreds of cancerous causing asbestos-filled storage heaters - I worked in factories where the entire heating systems were made up of asbestos-wrapped hot water pipes - can't tell you how many bricks I shat when the health report on the risks of industrial and domestic asbestos was published.
That's why I had no problem with identifying with a song which was outside of my immediate experience.
Our folk song repertoire is made up of such identifiable situations, that's what makes them universal and to a degree immortal.
Very few new songs have that double quality of specific universality - dealing with a particular situation yet at the same time, open to general identification.
"that a new song can become 'folk' if we don't know who wrote it and other people sing it?"
No we can't - the authorship of many songs that have become 'folk' are known yet they have been taken up and re-identified with by communities and have become part of the culture of those communities.
Quite often, as in the case of the MacColl songs I mentioned, the original maker is not known by the people who have chosen to identify with it.
As far as the 'Heavy Metal' posting goes, I was responding to what I believed to be on offer as 'folk' - certainly fits the 'non-definition' definition some clubs choose to put on.
If that is 'folk' the term has become meaningless.
A question - if some people dislike the stuff that brought us into this music so much - why do they with topo associate their music with it- or are they setting out to destroy the old music and replace it with theirs?
Just asking
Sorry - started this a couple of hours ago and am stuck uprooting New Zealand flax before is pisses with rain
Will post this and come back later.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 09:03 AM

"No we can't - the authorship of many songs that have become 'folk' are known yet they have been taken up and re-identified with by communities and have become part of the culture of those communities.
Quite often, as in the case of the MacColl songs I mentioned, the original maker is not known by the people who have chosen to identify with it."
I agree, Shoals of herring, fiddlers green,caledonia,dirty oldtown, are all examples

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 09:34 AM

Football crowds are not the sole arbiters, tho, Dick. Nor yet are they infallible ones.

What is the best-known of all songs sung by football crowds? Why, we all know that: a song, unchanged by folk process but sung with its original words & music, from a somewhat sugary & religiose Rodgers & Hammerstein musical first produced in 1945 & still current in the musical theatre repertoire: I must have seen at least 5 productions in my time. So prominent an example of the genre you rubricate as definitive in identification as folk, so identifiably & primarily cognate with the genre indeed, that its title/theme·line are inscribed over the gates of one of our leading football clubs.

And does all that make it unarguably folk?

Well, er -- I am sure you are glad I asked you that.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 11:38 AM

'As far as the 'Heavy Metal' posting goes, I was responding to what I believed to be on offer as 'folk' - certainly fits the 'non-definition' definition some clubs choose to put on.
If that is 'folk' the term has become meaningless.
Won't get any argument from me on that one Jim, adding a traditional instrument to a heavy metal band no more makes it folk than a mandolin on the intro to a Rod Stewart song.

'A question - if some people dislike the stuff that brought us into this music so much - why do they with topo associate their music with it- or are they setting out to destroy the old music and replace it with theirs?'
Not sure whether this was an open question, Jim, or just aimed at me, but I certainly don't dislike what brought us into this music, as well as 'rocking it up' a bit with The Hounds, I sing unaccompanied, or with acoustic instruments, and listen to a wide variety of traditional song. Personally, I don't feel that we are in any way setting out to 'destroy' the old songs, as a large number of our repertiore is traditional, but rather help to preserve them and perhaps give them a wider audience. I'm aware that a drum kit and electric instruments are not your cup of tea, but we'll have to agree to differ on that one ;)

Have fun with the flax!

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 12:09 PM

Wow!
What's going on? The 12th of September and all postings amicable and in agreement. I must have slipped sideways into a parallel world!
What was all the fuss about?

Off the top of my head, I seem to remember the suggested criteria in the 54 description are not cast iron requirements in every given song. The more of the requirements the song has the more it is a folk song.

As you all seem to be in agreement you probably already know that the 'known authorship' clause was in the original 54 description, but it was dropped very soon after it was published, possibly due to Lloyd or even Bartok.

This brings us to M's statement re 'You'll Never walk Alone'. This is of course the Liverpool anthem for obvious reasons, but it is also sung by just about every other bunch of fans in the country. As M states it is sung pretty much as it first appeared in the musical, but I would contend, although there is little variation, it is sung by many many 'folk' most of whom have never heard of 'Carousel' or indeed of 'Gerry Marsden'.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 12:18 PM

There you go! Living folk songs! Live from the kop end!

Football chants are indeed folk in any sense, if we must be bloody pedantic..

At Hillsborough, we recall boxing day 1979 with

Hark now hear!
The Wednesday sing!
United ran away...
And we will fight forever more,
Because of boxing day!

Whilst down at Upton Park, they still recall when Bobby Zamora played for them;

When you're sat in row Z
And the ball hits your head
That's Zamora...

Eeh.. I could talk about this folk music lark all day....

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 12:34 PM

Indeed, Guest. But I don't think even that would make it folk. I bet not many reading this could tell you offhand who wrote, say, a 30s standard like "We're In The Money", which I bet you can all hum on hearing the title... Hammerstein? Porter? Berlin? Johnny Mercer? Kern? Nope; none of them. In fact, I happen to remember it was one of the hundreds of songs with music by Harry Warren; not a name to conjure with, but google him & you'd be surprised who he worked with & what familiar tunes he was responsible for. Words were by Al Dubin in this case -- & likewise with him.

But it still isn't 'folk', is it? For all that...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 12:42 PM

BTW, Harry Warren also wrote "That's Amore", source of "That's Zamora" mentioned in Musket's x-post with mine.

I love coincidences -- have OPd threads on them...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 12:42 PM

... words by Jack Brooks

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 12:48 PM

Okay, M, Guest was me sans Cookie again.

Perhaps you'd like to explain why it isn't 'folk'.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 01:05 PM

so there are some new songs that are folk songs that would not be sung in folk clubs but might be sung at football matches , fields of athenry, the wheel barrow song,the red red robin keeps bobbing along
then we have our old friend the wild rover, a very good folk song, that is not sung in folk clubs because folk club goers think it is hackneyed, strange because it is the one song that people outside the folk scene recognise as a folk song yet folk afficinados turn their nose at.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 01:18 PM

Bounty Hound
By the way, Jim, meant to say that I'm not quite sure of the relevance of the link to listings of so called 'folk metal' bands

I think Jim is referring to my expression of incredulity when he listed heavy metal as one of the things he had found when he "just thumbed though lists of English Clubs". Folk Metal does, indeed, exist. I also came across "Scottish heavy metal bagpipes". What would you call a fusion of heavy metal and folk? (I mean as a defining term.) Whether or not this is represented in English folk clubs remains to be demonstrated.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 01:21 PM

Interestingly, Steve, this very question arose when I interviewed Bert Lloyd for Folk Review back in 1974. I actually put it to him that Liverpool supporters had made YNWA a folk song. "Folk in function but not in form," he said. "But," I replied, "in folk doesn't the function define the form, at least to some extent?" "To some extent," he agreed, perhaps a bit grudgingly -- and we turned to other matters.

So, apart from that, actually -- no thanks, I wouldn't "like to explain why". Just that I don't feel it here...

Dick, despite my previous challenge to you re Fiddlers Green & the MacColl song you cited, I agree that The Wild Rover has made that breakthru. But I can't think of any others which the first ten people you might stop & ask in a busy street would actually make any sort of familiar response to the names of.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 02:11 PM

michael, depends which street you went to if you went to killybegs or castletownbere, fishing towns, they would know shoals of erin[sic]fiddlers green boys of killybegs, if you went to a street in peckham you might get mugged.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Leadbelly
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 02:30 PM

What about early blues? Are they folk songs? I think so.

(If mentioned in this thread I'm sorry. Couldn't read all of this)

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 02:37 PM

Yay indeed. The Blues one of the most universally recognised and highly regarded of folk forms.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 02:43 PM

How about ragtime? Jazz? Swing? Rock? Bop? Rap? Slug? (I just made that last one up).

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 02:48 PM

"What about early blues? Are they folk songs? I think so."
They certainly are - you should try Alan Lomax's 'The Land where the Blues Began.
"Whether or not this is represented in English folk clubs remains to be demonstrated."
Never come across it if it does Bryan - I was told that it happened in Glasgow and I notice some of the groups are Irish.
Nearest I ever heard 'Alone' becoming a dolk song was w foreman at work telling me how he heard a bunch of Evertonians coming out of a match where Liverpool had been thrashed by Cologne, singing loudly, "You never wore Cologne DOWN" (shouted)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 02:53 PM

I'd say those more dubious, in that they are the products of professional musicians. Early Blues not entirely or altogether so.

Of course, as so often, there is that wide border between folk/not·folk -- the Debatable Land of folk music. But I should personally say that Mance Lipscomb, eg, was far more tending to the folk side than Scott Joplin or Satchmo [even if he did invent that bloody horse!].

Again, let me stress -- a taxonomic, not a qualitative, distinction.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 03:19 PM

Jim Carroll
Never come across it if it does Bryan - I was told that it happened in Glasgow and I notice some of the groups are Irish.

So why did you cite it as an example of what is wrong with English folk clubs?

just thumbed though lists of English Clubs - nearly all monthly where they used to be weekly (isn't yours monthly?) and everything from heavy metal to music hall

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Leadbelly
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 05:15 PM

In Germany, they differantiate between folksongs, coming from foreign countries and Volksliedern ( which is of same meaning) coming from gone centuries in German history.
In so far, normally there exists no real Volkslied composed in modern times. All which is sung was written long, long time ago.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 12 Sep 14 - 08:30 PM

My god, what a lot of got air generated by you guys! I tend to agree with what Howard and Steve G are saying, but for me by far the best in-depth and no-nonsense discussions of what constitute 'folk song'' are in Steve Roud's introductions to both 'The New Penguin Book of English Folk Song' and 'Street Ballads in Nineteenth-Century Britain, Ireland, and North America'. Read those and then resume your argument. And before anyone says they're prohibitively expensive - there are free public libraries, and if necessary inter-library loans at very little cost.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 04:50 AM

lewes folk club is weekly, i speak from experience, i have played it a few times.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 05:03 AM

"So why did you cite it as an example of what is wrong with English folk clubs?"
It was a comment on what has happened to the scene in general - as far as I'm concerned, the Electric' scene was a giant stride in that direction - making the same indigestible 'electric soup' of a song form that is basically narrative.
My misgivings are of what has happened to the clubs in Britain - not just in England - my brief thumb-through included the scene as a whole.
I seem to remember that it was a Sussex folk club that was offering pop hits from the fifties on their 'folk', though I might have mis-remembered that one.
England does have a 'Folk Metal scene FOLK METAL UK but it's beside the point.
It really doesn't matter Bryan - as far as I can see, with notable exceptions, the scene has gone down the pan, and some of the arguments being put forward here have done little to show I'm wrong.
Instead of nitpicking, perhaps you might answer the question I asked earlier - what is your opinion of what some of the 'anything goes' clubs are putting on, and what is being argued for here?
Do you believe that is is acceptable to turn up at a folk club and never hear anything resembling a folk song?
I really could do without the waffle about "It depends what you want" and the crap about my going to clubs waving a copy of '54 - that has never been my position, and we've been disagreeing for long enough for you to know that.
Do you think that a punter turning up at a folk club has a right to hear a fair number of folk songs during the evening, or has the term lost any meaning for you too?
"the best in-depth and no-nonsense discussions"
I take your point entirely about New Penguin Book Sue - we have to bite the bullet before we shell out for 'Street Ballads - I saw a copy in I.T.M.A. in Dublin, - looks fascinating, but lending libraries that would stock such an item are a bit thin on the ground here in the Wild West.
That's what gets me about these arguments - there is so much published evidence, past and present, of what constitutes folk song and virtually none on what people claim it has become, other than, "folk song is whatever I choose to call it", or the old cliché that inspired all those lovely old Hollywood musicals, - "I just wanna sing!!!"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 05:50 AM

"Do you think that a punter turning up at a folk club has a right to hear a fair number of folk songs during the evening,"

A right? No. A reasonable expectation, yes. However if what they got was an evening of Bob Dylan, Richard Thompson or even Ewan McColl I don't think they could argue the Trades Descriptions Act. You just have to accept that club is not to your own taste (just as a club offering more traditional fare might not be to someone else's) and look elsewhere. that's how it's always been, at least in my own 45 years' experience.

What you don't seem to realise, Jim, is that the points you make, valid as they are, are the preserve of academics, collectors and enthusiasts. For most people, folk clubs are simply purveyors of a particular form of entertainment, one which is difficult to define but broadly recognisable. If they lead people into a deeper interest and understanding of traditional music then so much the better, but that is not what brings people in to folk clubs in the first place - they go because they like what they hear, and they like the special intimate atmosphere which most clubs generate.

It gives me no pleasure to say it, but I think one of the reasons for the decline of the clubs was because they became too hard-core, catering much more for the committed enthusiast than the casual enquirer. As that generation found themselves with less time to spare due to increased work and family commitments, the clubs failed to attract a new generation who turned instead to other forms of music.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 06:15 AM

Howard
I think with both Thomson and MacColl there would be no problem anyway - Dylan seems to have made it clear that he had moved on, though some of his followers seem to have had trouble in following in the steps of the master.
Maybe a "right" it too strong a word - nowadays
Many clubs were "not to my taste" in the old days, but we managed to co-exist comfortably.
Noww we seem to have undergone a sort of acculturation, where folk has been driven out by something else.
I totally disagree with you that the hard core had anything whatever to do with the demise of the clubs.
In my experience, the hard core were very much a minority and constantly the target of 'finger-in-the-ear' and 'purist' and being misfit cranks.
The period that I believe Mike was referring to, when standards plummeted and choice disappeared what, as far as I can remember, the time of the Great Crash - by that time, the hard core clubs were all but an extinct species.
I really don't believe that those who would not abandon their commitment to putting on the music they thought worth the effort, in favour of keeping bums on seats no matter what they put on, can be in any way as being "hard core" - far from it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 06:31 AM

"Do you believe that is is acceptable to turn up at a folk club and never hear anything resembling a folk song?"
jim i have more up to date experience than you, in all the folk clubs i attend i hear folk songs.
somebody, was it jim? made a remark about elvis presley.
for the record the elvis presley song wooden heart uses a folk tune.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 06:32 AM

in my opinion that makes it as much of a folk song as first time ever, another love song with a folky type tune, although imo first time ever i saw your face is a much better song.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 11:32 AM

For that matter, Elvis did record "First time Ever.."

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 11:43 AM

" "First time Ever.."
Ewan once described one pop rendition (can't remember which), as sounding like a feller standing outside a ten story block of flats and calling up to his girl on the tenth floor to come for a pint.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 11:55 AM

As for what happened and when, I think we should consider generational effects. I grew up listening to prog rock, followed by punk. Both of those styles were all about personal expression, but in very stylised, artificial ways - the very narrow sonic & lyrical palette of punk & the ridiculously broad palette of prog both militated against songs that were both straightforward and articulate.

So I've never liked 'confessional' singers like Roy Harper and Richard Thompson, or 'protest' singers like Leon Rosselson or Dougie Maclean. If you want to tell me about your innermost feelings, you can write me a letter; if you want to tell me about the Diggers or the class system, you can write a letter to the paper. I always wanted something more from music, or at least something different. (I liked Pentangle and early Steeleye Span - they didn't preach and they sounded good.)

My dislike of singers with well-intentioned and/or introspective stories to tell kept me out of the folk clubs for years. All this time I'd been wanting to sing in public, till finally - at the age of 42 - I bit the bullet and went down to the local folk club. I wasn't expecting much - in fact I was expecting to hear a lot of earnest, well-meaning and rather boring songs, accompanied on acoustic guitar. And I did - but I also heard some great musicians, some fine songwriters and some interesting traditional songs. After a few years of this I discovered that there was a huge traditional repertoire, and that there were a lot of people who knew more of it than I did. These traditional songs made a total contrast with what I thought of as the standard folk club repertoire - they were, by and large, neither introspective nor well-meaning, and they sounded good.

The interesting thing about all this is that I'm still hearing Richard Thompson and Leon Rosselson songs, usually from people quite a bit older than me - but I'm also starting to hear earnestly introspective songs, and earnestly right-on songs, from people half my age. So maybe my generation is the odd one out. For me, Beeswing and Blackwaterside, or The World Turned Upside Down and The Battle of Otterburn, are so different that they might as well be separate art forms - they fit on the same bill about as well as clog-dancing and tai chi. But perhaps that's because of the reaction against earnestness which was very much in the air when I was growing up; perhaps people who grew up in the 00s, like many who grew up in the 50s, don't have that reaction.

In short, I wonder if Jim's right, or at least half-right, about the reason for the decline of the clubs. Here's how it might have gone. By the mid-70s earnestness just wasn't in fashion any more. If the clubs had been full of people singing Searching for Lambs or Two Pretty Boys, this might not have mattered; as it was, they were full of people singing Fire And Rain and Palaces of Gold, and the sophisticated youth of the day took a look and turned away. But it's not because they positively wanted what wasn't being played (traditional songs) - it's because they didn't want what was. Now, in less ironic times, the clubs are filling up again, but again it's not because of demand for traditional songs; it's largely because it's fashionable to wear your hearts on your sleeve again.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 12:37 PM

well all i know is that the people i took along to folk clubs really hated the trad singers and their songs. both sets of parents - mine and my wife's thought their attitude condescending and ridiculous.

working classes people i took thought Ewan and Peggy preachy on subjects of which they knew nowt.

Peter Bellamy - my guests insisted on leaving before the end of the first half!
Carthy's tuning antics dicked off more than a few.
My mother was infuriated by Gary Aspey's jokes about northern male chauvinism.
anothe chap whom i took to the jolly porter in exeter - asked why they were singing in such exaggerated butch accent - were they all homosexuals, by any chance?
Bob Davernport - had he got toothache - why was he holding his head .......and so on.

maybe your mates were disappointed at not getting more of this stuff Jim - but your experience wasn't universally shared.
for one thing Jim - just think. do you REALLY think in the very difficult world of professional musicians - if the public wanted english traditional folk music, pro musicians wouldn't be busting their balls to give them what they wanted.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 01:09 PM

"If the clubs had been full of people singing Searching for Lambs or Two Pretty Boys, this might not have mattered; as it was, they were full of people singing Fire And Rain and Palaces of Gold,"
   sorry phil i went to a lot more clubs than you in the seventies[fact] I was doing gigs, what you say is just not true, it may be your experience, but my experience on visiting clubs as a paid musician was different., and was based on seeing many different clubs.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 01:22 PM

My experience too Al. I put MacColl on a pedestal for his talent and I have a certain nostalgia feeling when I hear his voice, even if the variable accent could be cringeworthy at times.    But the rudeness and "worship us" attitude he and Seeger were happy to project is in sharp contrast to Jim's music of the people nonsense.

When Mrs Musket and I tied the knot a few years ago, I wanted "First Time Ever" as the music we walked back down the "aisle" to. After a lot of thinking, we chose The Stereophonics with Jools Holland and his rhythm and blues orchestra version. Mrs Musket asked to hear the original when we were choosing and after hearing Peggy, said "no effort, no mood, sterile. All the things you say about some classical singers except they don't sing flat."

To be fair, I like Peggy more than that and have her new album winging its way via Amazon. But Al's point is valid. You have to be enthusiastic about the provenance in order to appreciate the old traditional songs and some of those revered for it, but musically, it needs the treatment of more modern interpretations to turn it into music. That way, it can reach a far wider audience.

Listen to Anais Mitchell and Jefferson Hamer interpreting a few Child ballads as an excellent recent example.



An aside..   After losing money booking Gary and Vera Aspey, we folded a once rather large established folk club in North Notts, thirty Years ago.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 01:24 PM

"well all i know is that the people i took along to folk clubs really hated the trad singers and their songs. both sets of parents -"
Fine Al - sounds like a great reason not to go to a folk club (at least one where they specialise in folk songs)
"working classes people i took thought Ewan and Peggy preachy on subjects of which they knew nowt"
This working class person certainly didn't - neither did a lot of other working peole who I knew who listened and sang.
One of the finest singers I ever heard, Kevin Mitchell, painted high rise factory chimneystacks for a living util he retired.
"but your experience wasn't universally shared"
Neither is Beethoven or Shakespeare - what are you suggesting - replace them with Iron Maiden and Andrew Lloyd Webber?
This music was made by working people and served them as entertainment for centuries.
I have never had the slightest doubt all working people are capable of appreciating any form of art, given the opportunity nd incentive.
I was introduced to Dickens and Thomas Hardy by Walter Pardon, a carpenter from East Anglian farming stock
My father, a navvy, left me with a life-long love of Shakespeare whchich he got from his father, a merchant seamen i the last days of sail.
The latter, as a pastime, used to tell the plots of Shakespeare plays in broad Scouse to amuse anybody who would listen - he was invited to Stoke-on-Trant Grammar School to tell them to the students there a year or so before he died.
He was a founder-member of the Seaman's Branches of The Workers Education Association.
Us workers can do anything we choose if we put our minds to it!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 02:01 PM

"but musically, it needs the treatment of more modern interpretations to turn it into music. That way, it can reach a far wider audience."
.,,.

That may be viewed as a desirable objective. OTOH, is there not arguably much to be said for appeal to a narrower but more knowledgeable and discriminating audience? Over-popularisation can surely be qualitatively counter-productive. Both approaches have their merits, it seems to me. Are they in fact mutually incompatible, or are there not different occasions where it would be appropriate for either one to take precedence over the other?

I have always considered the fact that the word "élitist" should have acquired lip-curlingly pejorative overtones to be one of the more negative symptoms of the decline of of our society.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 02:10 PM

When the literary critic Paul Fussell was asked if he weren't an elitist, he replied, "Yes, but I want *everyone* to be an elitist."

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 02:48 PM

well i took these same people to see johnny silvo, derek brimstone, noel murphy, tony capstick, bernard wrigley, sean canon.....and they loved them ...performing folk music. many times the same songs that trad artists had bored the living shit out of them with.

lets face it -its not that you like folk music and we don't. its just that minstrelsy and its attendant skills are anathema to you.