What makes a new song a folk song?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 06:35 AM

I forgot to mention the clichés Jack
The pipe- smoke must have put me off my stroke
Are you for real or are you caricaturing somebody - Stanley Unwin maybe?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 08:09 AM

It has been made more than clear on this thread, many times over, that "folk", "folk song" and "folk singer" mean different things to different people or in different contexts. We can accept that situation or resent it but we can't change it.

GUEST 03 Oct 14 - 04:41 PM said "Rory McLeod apparently thinks he's a folk singer. By your definition he isn't. Equally he isn't navel gazing and would probably share your dismissal of such stuff." That supports the view that the term has such a range of meanings that it has ceased to be useful.

Some contributors have harped on, reiterating their assertions that folk is so-and-so. Some have sought to support their assertions by insulting those who disagree. That doesn't work: it is a classic case of "when rational argument fails, resort to invective" and it only weakens their case.

Others have written good sense, even if not always entirely agreeing with each other. Among recent posts, I particularly like the one from Howard Jones 03 Oct 14 - 04:27 AM.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 08:35 AM

Agreed, Richard.

Good luck with your martyrdom, Jim! I'm outa here!

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 09:12 AM

It has been made more than clear on this thread, many times over, that "folk", "folk song" and "folk singer" mean different things to different people or in different contexts. We can accept that situation or resent it but we can't change it.


How do you think the meaning of words does change, then? By Act of Parliament?

Musket:

The acts most in demand for festival bookings? That'll be Bellowhead, Eliza Carthy, Seth Lakeman...

Eliza Carthy's repertoire is about 75% trad & Bellowhead's is more like 90%. Maybe the meaning of 'folk' has changed already.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 09:14 AM

"Good luck with your martyrdom, Jim! I'm outa here!"
Martyrdom - sorry Steve - I don't follow you.
I think of it as hedonistic dedication to a music I love.
I leave definition-juggling to politicians.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 09:58 AM

Phil. Correct.

But not 100% anything.

But within the genre folk.

And folk is very popular with many people whose parents weren't around in 1954, let alone them. I doubt they would listen to anything on account of provenance, but listen to what they like to hear... I sing my version of Handweaver and The Factory Maid with guitar and a few months ago in a session in a pub, a lad at the bar said "great to hear you sing a Bellowhead song. I thought most of the weekly singers in the corner wouldn't know today's music."

That's the thing with folk, it is by definition an evolving music...

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 10:17 AM

I just this minute visited Wiki to check which was released first,
Pentangle's "Cruel Sister" or Led Zep 3..

Too my amusement, this is the first thing you will see on the Wiki home page -

"From today's featured article

A metalloid is a chemical element that has properties in between those of metals and nonmetals.
There is no standard definition of a metalloid,
nor is there agreement as to which elements are appropriately classified as such.
Despite this uncertainty, the term remains in use in chemistry literature."

..now doesn't that sound uncannily familiar....?????

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,polkafunkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 10:22 AM

.. and yes.. I no it shoud be 'to'..

I'm not the world's most accurate typist,
not helped by my glasses being about 18 years old,
since last time my eyes were tested....

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrrocker
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 10:59 AM

.. so there you go then MGM·Lion ...

'Folk' and 'Folkloid' music...??????

.. and if anyone wants to argue the toss..

I submit 'Folkoid', 'Folkalloid', 'Folkaloid' as alternatives - ok obsesssive scrabble champions...???

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 11:38 AM

Or ALLloid — as hommage, of course.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 11:40 AM

Where do I go then, pfr? Not at all clear to me why that remark was addressed to me.
Any chance of clarification?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 11:50 AM

..wherever you like,.. stay here if you want..
or it's a nice sunny autumn afternoon - the shops - the park - a pub garden -
up to you really...

but please come back soon....

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 11:56 AM

btw.. you're a month younger than my mum, and as sharp and witty as she is,
she frequently needs reminding of what the conversation was 5 minutes ago....

She thinks it's quite funny really and never takes offence
if we have to say something like..

"mum.. we're saying this because you asked us to.. remember..???"


So absolutely no disrespect intended.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 12:10 PM

I am sure your Mum is a lovely lady. So gratified you think of me along with her. But that still doesn't explain why --

From: GUEST,punkfolkrrocker - PM
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 10:59 AM
.. so there you go then MGM·Lion ...

was addressed to me, or what you meant by it.

???????????≈M≈??????????

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 12:21 PM

MGM·Lion.. if you'd met my mum in 1954...

any kind of 'Folk' music might have been the last thing on your mind..

she was hot..

Seriously, to the best of my recall,
all through a large part of this thread, you've been insisting on the need for classifications,
and asking for proponents of 'contemporary folk'
to furnish words that describe adequately to your standards
'folk that is not folk but might be folk even if it's not...."

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 12:27 PM

I said
> It has been made more than clear on this thread, many times over, that "folk", "folk song" and "folk singer" mean different things to different people or in different contexts. We can accept that situation or resent it but we can't change it.

and From: Phil Edwards 04 Oct 14 - 09:12 AM said
> How do you think the meaning of words does change, then? By Act of Parliament?

Is that rhetorical or does it require an answer? Will "Of course not" suffice? I could go on about how meanings do change, but it would be even more of a drift from the subject of this thread.

But I wasn't talking about how we can or can't change a meaning. I was saying that we (i.e. the participants in this thread and others with an interest in this subject) can't change the situation of there being multiple meanings.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 01:29 PM

Interesting article shared by Joe Offer on the thread entitled 'honour the tradition'

Worth a read, particularly for those who have posted here who seem to have little respect for the tradition, but still want to call what they do folk.

In other news, Mrs Hound has embarked today on a 6 week bodhran course! Should I leave home??

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 02:01 PM

Mrs punkfolkrocker's mandolin fad lasted about 2 or 3 basic chord shape lessons
before she realised she'd have to cut her nails...

Last week's fad was to explore as many uncommon British eating apples as possible..

she's still on the first bag, and half of them are starting to look a bit iffy..

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 03:19 PM

"Mrs Hound has embarked today on a 6 week bodhran course!"
You have my sympathy, though it's always been my observation that most bodhran players have never felt the need for lessons!
"Should I leave home??"
Either that or drown her in a bucket!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 03:23 PM

Think yourself lucky. I stayed in tonight and waiting to watch Dr Who. Its either Strictly Cum Dancing or bleeding penguins...

Still, its all traditional BBC as per Lord Reith eh

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 10:01 PM

just back from doing a gig.
.


playing to people who were definitely folk.

played a folk guitar.

mainly using fingerpicking techniques learned from acknowledged folk artists.

mainly playing songs that haven't been in the record charts for fifty - some not ninety years. songs which remain obdurately in most English peoples heads - despite never being on the telly. they do that without a special society to protect them, arts council grants, special programs on BBC4. These songs, they have no special festivals - you don't have to go to a gypsy encampment, or buy a June Tabor cd - you know these songs. they are the spare change clanking around in every English persons brain.

got the taxonomy blues Mike old man
As usual , I'll shit in the sink and watch the 3 o'clock Jeremy Kyle.
I wonder if I described myself as a folksinger, I'd fail the all important lie detector.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 02:21 AM

No no no. If you shit in the sink, that makes you a blues player.

Do keep up.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 02:26 AM

♫☠·☠♫

Woke up this mornin',
All them catt-ee-gore-ees mixin' together in my mind
Sez got up his mornin'
"N' ever' one of them a diff-if-if-erent kind
There was Dylan 'n' Gilfellon
'N' ma poor ole brain wa killin'
'N'spillin'
'N' not worth a dime
Or a shillin'
[It was chillin']

Coz I got those ole Taxo
[Don't tell Paxo]
Got those poor ole
Tax-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-
Oh-oh-onomy Blues

Yeah!

(Or mebbe!)

♪♪♩♬♩

~~≈©Haddnahmissippi Mike©≈~~

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 02:34 AM

Will that do for a Bloozoid, pfr?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 04:38 AM

Worth a read, particularly for those who have posted here who seem to have little respect for the tradition, but still want to call what they do folk.

The thing to really respect is the difference between FOLK TRADITION and FOLK REVIVAL and then to Know Thy Place, which no one seems too bothered about these days. The singer of Traditional Ballads down your local local folk club is not likely to be a Traditional Singer. Folk is a Very Modern Phenomenon and might be a tad too self-conscious of itself as being traditional to be truly Traditional, unless it means Traditional as in these Traditional Style Fish and Chips you can buy here in Fleetwood (as oppose to what I wonder? The more experimental sort on offer down th'road in Cleveleys?). Tradition as Old Fashioned. How depressing can you get?

Musical Tradition is this magical thing that happens when a human being is moved to go out to buy their first musical instrument in a state of wide eyed Epiphany, and begin to Experience music for themselves and on their own subjective terms (informed by a keen awareness of The Objective Condition of Culture) whatever the idiom that consumes their passions, whatever context they end up playing in. They learn their chops, they pay their dues, and so the perfect & uniquely human tradition of music making is assured survival for another lifetime among billions of lifetimes. They might end up playing Bach at Chethams or else singing this on the street corner in St. Annes Square in MCR like the busker we saw yesterday:

There's a sign on the wall but she wants to be sure
'Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings.   

Or they might end up doing both, and more besides, thus honouring the tradition simply by doing what we all must do anyway.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 04:49 AM

What makes it a 'Folk guitar' then Al, is it not an instrument capable of being played in many different styles?

As you choose to 'define' your guitar, it brings me back to my question from earlier, which you've not yet answered. You have to accept that the tradition exists as that is historical fact, and without that tradition, there would be no new folk music, so if you have as strong a dislike for that tradition as appears from your posts, why do you want to call what you do 'Folk'

And thanks for your suggestions chaps, PFR, perhaps I'll buy her a bag of apples, but your suggestion may be a little too drastic Jim ;)

John

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 05:20 AM

Indeed, John. I had already asked pretty much the same question almost a week ago ---

Date: 30 Sep 14 - 12:40 PM
But here's what I really don't get:-----
Why is it so important to all these singer-songwriters/contemp-song-performers, whatevers -- you know who & what I mean -- that their music should be known by the same name as a genre which has had a precise and universally recognised designation since the term "folklore" was coined by William Thoms in 1846? Why is it such a big deal to them that we must all agree that the name "folk" is appropriate for their creations & performances, when these are different both in origin & in nature from that covered by Thoms's useful term? Why do they get so hysterical and hot-under-the-collar if anyone suggests that communication of one's precise meaning might be enhanced if another term might be found for the music that they delight in, rather than any objection being raised to their impudent arrogation of a term which had already been in recognised usage for over a century for another set of people's favoured form?
Really beats me why they get so distressed and heated and abusive about it. And then, as often as not, go on in agressive, truculent tone, as if its their term, at that, and we are the ones trying to pinch it from them: "effrontery and arrogance of every traddie fundamentalist" a typical denunciation of theirs -- I ask you! ≈M≈

without in the interim having got a real answer; just evasions, if even that. Let's see if your having put it also will achieve any better results.

Held breath, anybody?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 06:24 AM

"Folk is a Very Modern Phenomenon and might be a tad too self-conscious
The term itselfwas conceived in relation to culture in 1846 and applied to song about 50 years later
In both cases, it was applied to a specific group of people and specific aspects of their culture
How "very" is "very modern".
Nothing else in your posting makes any sort of sense as it seems to refer to tradition as being "very modern"
Gibberish
Sorry t repeat your eloquently-made point Mike - its seems to be the one these people have the most difficulty in understanding
Jim Carroll
A Joe Heaney story always worth repeating
A Protestant man living in Connemara, fell in love with a local Catholic girl and was told he would have to take the Catholic faith in order to marry her.
He agreed and they were wed.
One Friday, a couple of weeks after the wedding, the priest was passing the newly-wed's home and caught the smell of frying bacon through the window - in those days, it was forbidden for Catholics to eat meat on a Friday.
He burst into the house and found the man just tucking into a feed of bacon and cabbage.
He berated him and told him that what he was doing was forbidden to a Catholic.
The man said he had been brought up on bacon and cabbage and he found it very hard to break the habit.
The priest told him he must only eat fish on Fridays and the next Friday he was tempted to do otherwise he should repeat to himself, "I'm a Catholic, I'm a Catholic, I'm a Catholic....." as long as it took for the temptation to go away.
A few Fridays later, the priest was passing again and,again, he caught the smell of frying bacon.
In a fury, he threw his bike into the hedge, stormed up the path and burst into the house, where he found the man sitting at the table in front of a huge lump of bacon, chanting, "you're a fish, you're a fish, you're a fish....."

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 06:31 AM

"Sorry t repeat your eloquently-made point Mike - its seems to be the one these people have the most difficulty in understanding"
.,,.

No sweat, Jim. The more the merrier in such cases. The point has now been made by you, and by me, and by John Bounty·Hunter. And do you think any of the obstinate so-&-so's is going to take the blindest bit of notice!

In All Our Dreams...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 07:04 AM

Nothing else in your posting makes any sort of sense as it seems to refer to tradition as being "very modern"

Folk & the idea of Tradition is a totally modern contrivance - a very patronising & paternal way of looking at proletarian culture hatched at a very significant remove from the culture itself. It results in a conservative orthodoxy that talks about Tradition though it were a God-given absolute - as Bounty Hound puts it : You have to accept that the tradition exists as that is historical fact, and without that tradition, there would be no new folk music. And he's not alone in believing in such a demonstrable delusion that, sadly, exists to the detriment of a truer appreciation of the phenomenon of so-called Traditional Song in its natural habitat, as oppose to the taxidermy of the revival, and its stars, heroes & emergent volkish certainties.

*   

Otherwise, nice to have a source for the Fish Story. I think I first heard it off Robin Williamson several decades ago and have had it at the ready ever since. I told it to my local priest once, who used it the following week at Mass. There was a one about the fellow who went the hell and couldn't get next to the fire for all the priests - have you got that one too?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 07:15 AM

Drift: I have known the Fish story since it was adapted as a sketch for a patrol-evening at a summer camp of a Jewish youth organisation I belonged to way back in the long·since day -- about 1946, I reckon. The priest in scene one sprinkles the Jew with Holy Water & sez 3 times, "A Jew thou wert, a Catholic thou art". When the priest calls in scene two and finds him eating a nice big juicy steak a few Fridays later & reprimands him, he sez, "That's OK Father -- I did just like you did to me: I sprinkled it three times and said 'A steak thou wert, a herring thou art'..."

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 07:19 AM

Nice!

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 07:29 AM

"Folk & the idea of Tradition is a totally modern contrivance"

,..,.,

Not usually lost for words, as some might have noticed; but I scarcely know where to begin with so nonsensical a statement as that.
The word 'folklore' is indeed relatively 'modern', indeed, having a traceable origin only 168 years ago. But the concept of "Tradition", with proleptic recognition of the "folklore" concept, is surely subsumed in terms like Scott's "Minstrelsy" 1802; the Grimm Bros "Hausmärchen (Household Tales)" 1812; Percy's "Reliques of Ancient English Poetry" 1765; Sir Philp Sidney's "the old song of Percy and Douglas" 1581.....

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 07:35 AM

"A pop song thou wert - folk thou art"



....sorry....... couldn't resist temptation................

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 07:41 AM

'Tradition: a custom, opinion or belief handed down to posterity' so says the OED.

If as you say Jack, I and many others are deluded in believing that a tradition exists, and that is a demonstrable delusion, let's see you demonstrate that!

What, perhaps you need to remember, is that if there were no tradition, there would (again by the very definition of the word) have been nothing for a 'revival' to be based upon, or indeed anything new drawing influence from that tradition!


John

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 07:50 AM

Funnily enough, sitting next to the OED on my bookshelf is Bob Copper's book 'A song for every season'

The sleeve notes say this: 'Bob Copper recalls the music that used to accompany toiling in the fields, shearing the sheep, or resting in the smoky tap room......he remembers toe occasions on which they sang.....and the people who used to sing them'

Ah, that will be a 'tradition' then!

John

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 08:15 AM

Another DRIFT story:
I was teaching at a school in Stevenage in the mid-60s, when the then Pope said that Friday Abstinence need no longer be observed. One Friday, a Catholic boy on my table [I even remember his name, John Bonja (not Bon Jovi!)] went to the hatch to get the fish course that the kitchen ladies would always obligingly prepare on Fridays for the few RC pupils.
"You know, John," I said to him, "the Pope has said that you don't have to eat fish on Fridays any longer."
"Never mind the Pope, sir," he rejoined; "it's my mum!"

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 08:35 AM

"Folk & the idea of Tradition is a totally modern contrivance "
This is a thoroughly stupid and ignorant statement and repeating it in the face of evidence already presented only makes it more stupid
Thom used the term in the first half of the 19th century to be applied to certain cultural aspects coming from specific communities.
In 1890, George Laurence Gomme, Fellow of the Society of Antiquaries and Director of the Folklore Society, in his 'The Village Community - with reference to its survivals in Britain', attempted to analyse the communities from which these traditions sprang from.
This was a recognition of a folk or traditional culture which had, previous to this, been referred to as 'peasant culture' and dated back to at least the beginning of the nineteenth century.
In 1852, William Bell wrote 'Shakespeare's Puck and his folkeslore illustrated from the superstitions of all nations'
In 1870 in Ireland, The Reverend John O'Hanlon ('Lageniesis'), published 'Irish Folk Lore, traditions and superstitions of the country.
In Wales, traditional tales were being identified as such and published in the first decade of the nineteenth century.
Whatever the shortcomings of all these researches and collections, what the idea of tradition was most certainly not was "a modern contrivance"   
Again excuse the repetition Mike - his arrogance leaves me more than a little gobsmacked too   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 09:00 AM

The word 'folklore' is indeed relatively 'modern', indeed, having a traceable origin only 168 years ago. But the concept of "Tradition", with proleptic recognition of the "folklore" concept, is surely subsumed in terms like...

Doesn't matter when, Michael - I'm using the term Modern in the sense of relating to the present or recent times as opposed to the remote past, and by extension a remote or, indeed, lesser culture. In this sense the folk concept was always modern, even when Henry Purcell was setting what we'd now call Scottish Folk Songs over 300 years ago or else using Idiomatic Folk material in his operas (Come Away Fellow Sailors in Dido, Your Hay It is Mowed in King Arthur). Folk is very much of it's time, looking at something it assumes is timeless, and the bumpkin practitioners thereof innocent of it true provenance and / or significance.

Interestingly, as you are no doubt aware being the erudite chap you are, the first instance of a melody being collected from a tradition was when the medieval aristocratic Troubadour Raimbaut de Vaqueiras (1165 -1207) filched the tune he used for his famous Kalenda Maia from two duelling folk-fiddlers he overheard jamming in a field one day. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose! More bloody parlour arrangements!

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 09:07 AM

MGM, I'm not sure that's drift. It may BE the whole point!

I dove into this thread this a.m. headfirst. As a non-scholar, rank amateur singer who has had the singular privilege of holding on to some thin threads of a few 'traditional' tunes that are now being re-woven into the fabric, I am enjoying sitting at your knees and learning.

Thank you.

Dani

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 09:31 AM

Tradition is a concept widely understood outside the world of folk song scholarship - it's simply what's going on when someone repeats an old saying that Granny used to enjoy. Modes of behaviour like that existed long before terms like 'tradition' or 'folk' were applied to them (which was a long time ago, as has already been amply demonstrated), and are in no way dependent on academics or some meddlesome bourgeoisie for their meaning. Wasn't it the Copper Family who, discussing their priceless heritage of song, said "It's just what we do"?

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 10:04 AM

I still think the Americans might have a healthier, less neurotic, perspective on all this...

'Americana', for me, demonstrates a comfortable relaxed attitude to writing new songs
in the style of a real or idealised past tradition.

Some of my favourite bands of the last 15 years or so - 16 Horsepower, Blanche, The Handsome Family,
and a fair few others, exemplify this approach.

Acknowledging & quoting their 'old timey' culture of 'folk' music and hellfire religion with respect,
and equal measures of fondness and unease.

Their vision of a past in the present tended towards gothic darkness,
which may appear a touch too contrived and theatrical.

But the CDs were for me at least, essential listening around the turn of the millenium...

And hearing them, helped redirect me and the wife back towards UK Trad folk
after several years of immersion in the delights of funk, soul, and reggae.

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 10:17 AM

"Doesn't matter when, Michael - I'm using the term Modern in the sense of relating to the present or recent times as opposed to the remote past"

,..,.,

Ah: always suspected your two middle names were Humpty & Dumpty, Jack.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Musket
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 11:11 AM

Yeah, and if Jim and his apologist for credibility Michael were right, folk clubs would be stuffed with songs about the hardships of working in a call centre and how you only have Strictly Cum Dancing and your Sony Playstation to keep you sane.

And none of the songs would be copyrighted....




Incidentally, many variations of the same song from previous centuries were to get around or cheat existing copyright through the broadsheets they usually appeared on. Hence when I read some of the nonsense spouted by those wishing to be seen as authorities on the subject, I tend to do this.

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂.

And all because living folk has moved on since old men sat in committees defining things for the masses who couldn't be left to decide what they like. Condescending bullshit about real people and real lives. I wrote more punk songs about real life than I sing from tradition..

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 11:19 AM

Tradition
"I'm using the term Modern in the sense of relating to the present or recent times as opposed to the remote past"
Rituals and traditions have been features of literature at least as far back as Homer' funeral games in The Iliad.
Peter A Bucknell's 'Entertainment and Ritual' is confined to the period between 600 to 1600, but he constantly refers back to the Romans and the Greeks - in fact, as far back as known history
The King's horses and men are never around when you need them!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 11:24 AM

Just read the thread on Cheltenhan Folkfest revamp, and googled up DJ Dolphinboy..

Here's a link re: who he is and what he's up to remixing 'Trad' samples..

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDQQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scotsman.com%2Fnews%2Fdolphin-boy-makes-a-splash-1-760508&ei=JVIxVPryN5DiasL0goAI&usg=AFQjCNHvCR0iM7GDQNYkwUbDFbpCN34P8w&bvm=bv.76802529,d.d2s

and this link to actual sound clips..

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vertical-Variations-Dolphin-Boy/dp/B001IF34BS

[Preview all songs]


I don't like it.
The only track remotely appealing to my primitive minimalist tastes is no. 9. "Break (Fairly Funky Mix)"

Otherwise, I find it all too insipid.
Probably because the actual source recordings he is remixing
are the kind of modern trad folk I don't like.

All too wishy washy, sophisticated cool, bland dinner party soundtrack 'trad' folk..

Anyway, this is just me being a bit grumpy and prejudiced...

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 11:43 AM

..thought to be fair to DJ Dolphin Boy, parts of this track are far more to my tastes,
enouraging me to spend a little more time exploring his online stuff..

Underground Diddly Tasters

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 11:58 AM

.. and... YES

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 12:25 PM

pretty cool stuff.

Over here, we have Steve "Silk" Hurley.

This is a sidebar for sure, but here's a piece he did when Maya Angelou died, incorporating her poetry:


http://youtu.be/DcXvZaaK6L0

Dani

Subject: RE: What makes a new song a folk song?
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 01:02 PM

Rituals and traditions have been features of literature at least as far back as Homer' funeral games in The Iliad.

Rituals and Traditions are an integral aspect of human culture & have been since the year dot. Check out Bob Trubshaw's Explore Folklore and Bob Pegg's Rites and Riots for canny overviews of the subject as well as the Metalore surrounding them on the part of succesive generations of folklorists whose wonky volkish interpretations have unwrittem pretty much the entire concept of Neo Paganism & its Neo Fascist associations.

People have been having sex and baking bread for countless millenia too; Ritual & Tradition spring from the same basic urge which is common to all - not just that shadowy class of unwitting lore-carrier known as The Folk by their self-appointed caretakers.