BS: Vegan mudcatters

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 02:57 PM

LOL... great minds... or maybe appetites?

I may have tried tempeh many years ago... I found many vegetarians back then couldn't cook worth a d*mn... which was very disappointing. Eating should not be some kind of penance, in my opinion.

Being half Italian, I grew up eating fresh vegetables and salads with meat as a balanced part of the meal. I never encountered the meat and potato menu until I went away to college... boy, put on a few pounds that first semester.   

The hubby thought he hated broccoli, until I steamed it for him with fresh lemon juice squirted on it. He didn't realize it's supposed to be green, not grey and mushy... lol.

What will always baffle me is vegetarian bologna or salami... big bucks for a few measley slices. WTF?

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 03:27 PM

it's not just alternative agriculture... but alternative marketing.

When in NY City, the local streets in Queens are just filled with assorted storefronts that sell every kind of fruit, vegetable, meat, spice from all different cultures...

but that doesn't exist in many other US cities large or small... in fact, many are urban deserts that are underserved by grocery chains and trying to shop for fresh food is challenging at best. Some not for profit groups have set up farmers markets on street corners to help serve these communities. Growing healthy food that people can't get access to is a logistical issue that needs more work to fix.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 03:40 PM

Skipping down to the bottom, I haven't a chance to read much right now, but I'm interested in the concepts of permaculture. Permaculture.org in Australia - not sure which site is actually the original, but it is an important innovation in restoration of lands. The scale is perhaps a limiting factor.

An idea to toss around.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 04:14 PM

I bought some avocados recently as they were on offer. Some are still firm, but this is what I'm having for lunch soon as they're ready. A Peruvian inspired dish of avocado stuffed with quinoa salad: Peruvian nom nom
I very rarely buy fancy stuff like quinoa, but it makes pleasant change from couscous now and then, plus its supposed to be terribly good for you.

I have read that there are those who argue that 'we' shouldn't buy quinoa because demand is pushing up the price and it's starting to become too expensive for native Peruvians to eat, so they're turning to other food staples that have a less glamourous appeal to Western foodies, however I doubt the farmers themselves would disapprove too much of more people wanting to buy their produce? I wonder what others here think of such issues?

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 05:29 PM

Oi, sciencegeek, I don't think I've even mentioned tofu! In fact, I don't even know what it is.

Yes, eggplants/aubergines. I found I can't grow 'em very well in the humid Cornish climate - they seem to start rotting before I can harvest them. So I buy 'em, but caveat emptor! Bought ones can have incredibly tough skin that stays tough even when cooked. I test with a finger nail before I buy (yes, I know...), and, if they're brownish/seedy/fluffy inside when you get them home, they're useless. I reckon the best thing for aubergines is moussaka, but there's a brilliant Sicilian dish, very veggie, called pasta alla Norma (named in honour of Bellini's Norma) which uses chopped-up aubergines. There are several variations of this dish, but whatever you do you should sprinkle the cooking eggplant slices with dried oregano. You won't regret it.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 29 Oct 14 - 06:53 AM

Sciencegeek: "What will always baffle me is vegetarian bologna or salami... big bucks for a few measley slices. WTF?"

Agree, there are better things to put in your sandwiches / wraps anyway. I'm a massive fan of hummus - including the plethora of bastardised alternatives (one of my favourite hummus-style dips/spreads is a cannelloni bean puree flavoured with garlic, lemon and fresh rosemary.) I've got a shed-load of sun-dried tomatoes at the mo' so I'll be making a batch of sun-dried tomato tapenade with those shortly. I think the key to decent vegan food, is looking outside of one's own food-culture, so many other traditional food-cultures make huge use of grains, vegetables and pulses.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 29 Oct 14 - 08:50 AM

sorry Steve... brain freeze moment got you & chantyranger blended together... now there's a visual for you... lol

eggplants and peppers are two vegetables that need more sun & heat than I can get on our hill most years, so I get them from local farmers down in the valley where the micro climates are more favorable. Eggplant is often used in Italian cooking to replace meat - the texture makes a more robust dish.

back when I was a kid & we had meatless Fridays, pasta ceci was a favorite dish... elbow macaroni with marinara sauce and chickpeas... and a side dish of stewed zuchinni. simple but good.

dang, but I'm ready for lunch already!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 29 Oct 14 - 09:13 AM

Sgeek: "back when I was a kid & we had meatless Fridays, pasta ceci was a favorite dish... elbow macaroni with marinara sauce and chickpeas..."

I've only recently discovered the blessed combo of pulses with pasta (yes, I know, forgetting minestrone). Of course the Italians have been doing it for donks, but it's not the kind of food you often see promoted on telly / in mags - or if it is I've missed it somewhere.

As for aubergines, I tried growing these outdoors in a sunny concreted area. I actually grew aubergines! Not very many and not very large, but aubergines outside in the UK nonetheless. A Spanish variety, suited to cooler and damper climes:

http://moreveg.co.uk/shop/article_AUBDEL/Aubergine-Berenjena-De-Almagro.html

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 14 - 09:48 AM

LOL...

Pasta Fagioli - A traditional Italian soup. Serve with a crisp salad and a hot loaf of garlic bread and you have a meal! Serve with grated Parmesan cheese on top."

look up trattoria recipes... quick & easy & nourishing. ceci in a tomato base soup with rosemary. broad beans simmered with finely sliced fennel or just the leafy tops, smoked ham optional.

the one legume I have a problem with is fava... genetics there, so I just do without.

Lentil soup was a standard, love the smokey flavor of the ham. Lentils are also prominant in Indian dishes. And you don't need to soak them overnight.

Once I decided that I wasn't risking hellfire for eating meat, I only go vegetarian if it's a normal part of the dish I'm having... and a little meat on the side helps keep it all in balance.

That's my motto... keep it all in balance and moderation. And avoid the artificial krap - period...

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 29 Oct 14 - 02:09 PM

"Once I decided that I wasn't risking hellfire for eating meat, I only go vegetarian if it's a normal part of the dish I'm having... and a little meat on the side helps keep it all in balance."

It would appear that there is only one vegan mudcatter on this thread!

Though I veer towards being more 'vegan' (or rather more correctly, I tend to either exclude or minimise animal-products most days of the week, but that's just too many words to type) than not on most days, I currently still eat fish about once a week.

We had steamed salmon fillets tonight along with a large chilli, garlic and ginger laced winter vegetable and wholewheat noodle stir fry. Boof, am I stuffed. Finished of the Swedish Glace too.

Lunch was surprisingly good, I had a Peruvian style quinoa salad packed into avocado halves; so not an animal product heavy day overall, barring the wild salmon fillet. Plenty of those 'good' fats today too.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Oct 14 - 02:34 PM

I'm not impressed with the Peruvian avocados. They don't ripen as easily and aren't as creamy. It appears to be another product picked too early and shipped too far.

North Texas is a very good climate for eggplant, tomatoes, peppers, okra, and much more. Summer is so hot everything kind of languishes, but fall is glorious with cooler days. The first frost is typically in mid-November.

Perhaps not vegan, but considering cutting out a lot of meat, looking for alternate sources of food protein, and looking for healthy meat that doesn't come from feed lots, confining pens, etc. It might be considered progress.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 29 Oct 14 - 02:48 PM

a friend who is Greek Orthodox observes Lent in their tradition, which is pretty much vegan for 40 days. They seem to have degrees of observance for meatless and fasting. Makes giving up chocolate for Lent seem only for wimps.

when we have musical get togethers, the potluck meals are wild because of the food restrictions for so many of the folks. each dish ends up with a label to keep it safe.

so I guess there really is no one answer for everyone... what is great for one person can kill the next guy or at least end them up in the ER.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 14 - 08:27 PM

Ye gods yes, those damned avocados! Can't trust the things at all if you're having people round. You can get them to what you think is the perfect ripeness, or even buy those "ripe and ready" ones - but there's the severe danger that, when you cut into them, they will be seriously blackened, or very fibrous, or both, inside. I always buy twice as many as I think I need. If things are good I secretly eat approx. an avocado and a half in the kitchen before serving up the grub, unbeknowns to the missus.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 30 Oct 14 - 04:27 AM

SRS: "considering cutting out a lot of meat, looking for alternate sources of food protein,"

As I posted above, believe it or not you don't actually need a lot of protein. Only 46g a day for adult females. All food sources have some protein content, as such you're only likely to become protein deficient if you're very malnourished, or in other words, starving.

Otherwise, for vegetarians all forms of dairy and eggs are high in protein. While strict vegan sources include beans (legumes), nuts and seeds, and all forms of soya (including beans, tofu, milk and tempeh.) Wheat protein or gluten ('Buddhist Meat') is another popular vegan meat sub, though naturally not suited to those with gluten intolerance. Lastly quinoa, that South American grain (actually a seed, but never mind) I've mentioned a couple of times here, is high in protein.

For those going full on vegan, and concerned about their nutrient intake, a food logger is a good idea. There are a number of free online sites where you can track your daily intake of all nutrients, including protein. I use FatSecret, but there's also Cronometer and MyFitnessPal to name a couple of others.

Fat Secret Food Log

Food logging is quite a good idea if you're just interested in observing your food habits. If wanting to lose or maintain weight, it helps to get a picture of where your excess calories may be coming from for example. As well as how much saturated fat, salt or sugar you may be routinely ingesting without really being aware of it. It also encourages honest self-appraisal for those who may either over eat (or indeed under eat) for whatever reason; whether due to snacking, nibbling, inappropriate portion sizes, alcohol, sugary drinks and so-on. I think their a very useful tool. And as said, good for those anxious about getting enough of the right nutrients if making dietary shifts, such as going vegan.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 30 Oct 14 - 04:40 AM

And the App for Android Phones:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.fatsecret.android&hl=en_GB

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 30 Oct 14 - 08:16 AM

Amaranth was a major grain in pre-Columbian Mexico. Must be cooked for digestability, but not all that hard to grow. Leaves are also edible... but not well suited to mechanical harvesting like cereal crops.

I find it a bit bland on its own, but it can be blended in with other flours. Biodiversity in food stocks is a very good idea and should be encouraged.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Oct 14 - 12:01 PM

I have a couple of types of quinoa at the house, and really like the dark variety, it's nutty tasting and cooks well in the rice cooker.

I've always been an oatmeal eater, and in the last couple of years have switched to steel cut oats. They take longer to cook and it's easy to scorch if you're not vigilant at the stovetop, so I have a small crockpot with low wattage that I set up overnight. The oats and some cut up dates and a little salt are topped by the appropriate amount of boiling water. By morning it is perfect.

I bring garden surplus to work and hand out to coworkers. It's a pleasure to see someone get all giddy about a pound of okra or a beautiful smooth eggplant picked only hours earlier. I have plenty at home to cut up, cook, freeze, can, etc. Sharing the wealth is a good thing. We are entering the second tomato season of the year.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: olddude
Date: 30 Oct 14 - 08:01 PM

I like mashed potatoes and fried vegan great with a nice merlow.

. Hannibal lecter

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 31 Oct 14 - 02:37 AM

Oldude, that must be the Merlot talking! I thought vegans were supposed to make terrible eating?

You can't fatten the buggers up on a diet of lentils and kale! There's no tasty muscle tissue or fat to be had. All scrawny and composed of bone and sinew.
Plus have you seen how unhealthy their hair and skin is; pale skin, lank hair.

I wouldn't eat that!*









*Kidding, none of the vegans or vegetarians I've known have fallen into this stereotype.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: olddude
Date: 31 Oct 14 - 12:54 PM

hey
but they are only good in a month that has an R in it. Or is it ARRRR

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 01 Nov 14 - 04:58 AM

Apparently, it's World Vegan Day today.

By way of celebration, The Independent newspaper has a few recipies which may interest people here.

Whilst I'm certainly no vegan, I think that the Spicy Burgers look particularly good.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Nov 14 - 05:08 PM

Whoa - that's quite a hefty cookbook. It filled my mailbox yesterday. I look forward to reading through and planning a few new dishes.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 01:57 AM

Let us know if you cook anything SRS?

Otherwise, vegans or dairy excluders/reducers may be interested in this latest study on milk, currently doing the rounds: Not so good for bones after all?

Or you can read the original article in the British Medical Journal

"a new study from researchers in Uppsala University in Sweden suggests that consuming more milk could actually be associated with higher mortality and bone fractures in women and higher mortality in men.
   "I've looked at fractures during the last 25 years. I've been puzzled by the question because there has again and again been a tendency of a higher risk of fracture with a higher intake of milk," said the study's lead author Karl Michaelsson, a professor at Uppsala University.
   The study, published in the British Medical Journal, utilized data from two large, long-term Swedish studies of adult men and women, which asked about their dietary habits -- how much and what types of milk and dairy products they consumed.
   Women who consumed three or more glasses of milk a day had a higher risk of fracture and a higher risk of death. Men who drank three or more glasses of milk a day had a slightly higher risk of death -- mostly associated with cardiovascular death -- compared to those who drank less than one glass a day. And there was no reduced risk of fracture as milk consumption increased."

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 02:10 AM

Ed, homemade Spicy Beanburgers are IMO miles better than the ones you get in the frozen vegetarian foods isle. If I pan fry (which I usually do, and which is a calorific but much tastier option) I will often serve them straight onto a hearty bed of salad greens or crispy slaw dressed with coriander (or whatever I have) and lime, and miss out the potatoes and bread rolls that they usually get partnered with.

I use onions and peppers finely diced and fried in a little oil, mashed cooked kidney beans, sweetcorn (usually drained tinned for convenience), sufficient oats / and or breadcrumbs for a firmish dough - you're after the texture of playdough (a flabby beanburger is a nasty thing), and I use finely crushed tortilla chips to coat them. Lots of chilli, cumin and salt (yes the evil salt) in there too.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 08:58 AM

just spent a delightful musical weekend with a wonderful buffet... great for omnivours and vegetarians alike. However, for the few vegans present and those with specific food requirements, it was a challenge for the staff to meet everyone's needs. By Sunday they had it worked out pretty well, but it made slim pickings for a day.

If I were setting up the menu, I think I would have served polenta with grilled mushrooms and other seasonal vegetables.... or risotto along the same lines.

Then I wondered if a peanut stew or gumbo would be appealing. The roux is made with flour and oil, browned to the desired color so it forms the proper base to be used with a rich vegetable broth. Any thoughts?

One vender there is from Senegal and we discussed the foods available there... rice, fish and more fish. Meat is a luxury. He laughed about how he would be so sick of fish, but now here it's a treat.
My later thought was about how a not for profit group is working to make golden rice available to countries like Senegal that suffer from serious and potentially fatal Vitamin A deficiencies... and the opposition to this from groups who equate GMO with Frankenstein scenerios. Reluctance from farmers is mostly because the yields are lower than their regular varieties. They need the income from larger yields. Never an easy answer it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 03:10 PM

All those sound good to me Sciencegeek. I suspect the key to effectively serving a smattering of vegans in amongst a predominantly carnist crowd, is to serve dishes that the carni's would still want to tuck into as side dishes alongside the meaty dishes. Or in other words, not 'veggie' versions of meat dishes but tasty dishes that are veg in their own right. Also anything served to a crowd, needs to be easy to prep in bulk - saucy dishes that can be served straight from a large volume stew pot are ideal (curry, stew, soup) as are dishes that can be portioned up and served straight from a gastronom (lasagne, cobbler, pie)

Sunday was an all vegan day for us: fruit for breakfast, then we had a brunch of home made herby potato wedges, tinned baked beans, curry spiced scrambled tofu, tinned plum tomatoes, and brown bread and soya marge. Later for dinner we had lasagne made with a tomato, mushroom and olive ragu sauce, wholemeal lasagne sheets, soya milk bechamel (no almond milk in), topped with pangritata (garlic breadcrumbs).

We also watched 'Cowspiracy' which himself found to be quite an eye-opener.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 03:10 PM

Me below.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 03:30 PM

Pangritata is something I've been using quite a bit recently. I'd say it's a very useful staple in the kitchen of anyone aiming to reduce their hard cheese consumption, for whatever reason. A great sub for vegans. Use it liberally on pasta dishes.

Roughly blitz 200g / 7oz of fresh bread, into breadcrumbs.
Gently heat about 4 - 6 tablespoons of olive oil, in a heavy based pan.
Add as much finely chopped garlic as you can handle; I use six cloves, others may prefer two!
Saute until softened and beginning to colour.
Add breadcrumbs and then keep stirring over a low to medium heat until crispy - this may take a while, but don't cook too hot or the garlic will burn, which is nasty.
Once crispy, take off the heat and cool. Season well with salt and pepper. Store in an airtight jar.

You can include fresh herbs in this mix, while crisping the breadcrumbs, but so far I've just added dried as my garden herbs have been too rain sodden to bother those times I've done this.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 03:35 PM

one nice thing about their buffet was the number of choices...

steamed vegetables, a starch like rice, potato or pasta, and several meat/fish options.

Fresh green salad but not a wide selection of dressings, but at least oil & vinegar option, and only a single soup selection per day.

nicely balanced for us omnivours, but lacking in substance for vegans... to my way of thinking. The eggplant rollatini was delightful, but the ricotta filling put it off limits. At least the pasta was presented plain and a marinara sauce was an option.

maybe a hearty mushroom & bean/vegetable ragut served with a nice pilaf would have done the trick.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 08:32 AM

Yesterday vegan all day, and logged on food and nutrition tracker:

Breakfast: Wholemeal toast and marmite, Miso soup in a cup
Lunch: Cabbage, potato and caraway soup, with brown bread
Dinner: Cajun brown rice and blackeye-beans, Steamed spring greens, Pumpkin and split pea patty

Calories: 1364 - intentionally less than I need due to portion control for weight loss
Protein: 54g - about 8g more than I need (46g)

In case there is still any doubt concerning protein sources on a plant-based diet, I'm just illustrating how easy it is to get protein. Looking at the breakdown, two slices of wholemeal bread gave me 10g, the blackeye beans another 10g, and the split pea and pumpkin patty 13g, the rice 5g, the soup 12g and miscellaneous extras from other odds and sods like the miso and yeast extract.

If my intentionally reduced portion sizes had been large enough to bump me up to 2000kcal, which is the amount generally advised for adult women, then my protein intake would reflect that and be more like 77g which is considerably more than I actually need.

I hope that all makes sense!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 08:37 AM

Sciencegeek, I think rice and beans are always great idea, they make a good hearty meal for those not eating meat, and meat eaters can tuck in too. I had Cajun style blackeye beans yesterday, which I love - along with steamed rice. It's really moreish stuff though, quite easy to load the plate up with.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 09:12 AM

well, aside from the fact that I enjoy the taste of meat, the fact remains that small amount of meat provides a complete package of essential amino acids... and the reason why protein is needed in the diet... we can not synthesize them but have to ingest them. The nine amino acids humans cannot synthesize are phenylalanine, valine, threonine, tryptophan, methionine, leucine, isoleucine, lysine, and histidine.

This is why corn is usually eaten in conjunction with beans... neither has all nine, eat both together and you do get the complete package.

As for protein... hair & fingernails are almost 100% protein... but not very digestable. And many plant sources of protein are equally indigestable without some kind of processing... if not actually toxic.

Please don't take this to mean I see any value to gorging on meat... far from it. What I support is balance... take advantage of the full range of options that your metabolism can handle and try to chose options that are least detrimental to our common environment. We own 70 acres that are farmable... but not really suited to tillage. Some is woodlot, the rest is pasture that is restoring the tilth to the land and our critters provide nurishment to both us and the land. And there is still room for birds and wildlife to live and flourish. There'd be fish too, but the stream is too close to the headwaters and dries out some years.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 09:47 AM

Sure, my point isn't to convince anyone to quit meat. I eat fish anyway. But as this is a thread about veganism and there have been questions about non-animal 'protein sources' I'm just showing that it's a lot easier to get protein on a vegan diet, than most people believe.

I don't meet my calorie requirements by consuming 'Oreos', 'potato chips' and fizzy drinks though, which are every bit as 'vegan' as kale and lentils but very high in calories from fat and sugar and low in other essential nutrients. Junk food vegans do exist - folk who really do live on top ramen noodles, oreos and chips - and they don't tend to do that well.

If I was eating sweets and snacks all day instead of a diet comprised of predominantly of vegetables, wholegrains and pulses (legumes) in a variety of combinations, I'd be much less likely to get all the nutrients - including amino acids - that I need without supplementation.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 10:21 AM

agreed... but we seem to live in a world that is obsessed with food fads and eating disorders abound. Balance and moderation is not eating a supersized meal and drinking a super size diet soft drink... yet I see it all the time.

All my training as a biologist, ecologist and cultural anthropologist... hence the "sciencegeek"... tells me that "vegan" is not "the answer" to anything other than a personal choice that needs to be carefully thought out.

There has been a small bandwagon claiming that everyone going vegan will save the planet... speaking as a professional in the environmental field, I find that simplist attitude alarming. Hence my posts. Don't worry, I even speak out when folks try to turn "organic" into more than it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 11:04 AM

Regards "processing" plant materials, you do mean basic kitchen processes like grinding and cooking right? I wouldn't fancy going 'raw' anyway, thirty bananas a day? Ugh, I'd be living on the toilet! :-/

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 11:28 AM

processing... what a delightful word... and so hard to pin down

mechanical processing can mean cutting, drying or grinding... the food is still chemically unaltered.

chemical processing... it used to be adding salt or sugar to retard bacterail growth... but it can also be the start of the fermentation process. yum

or adding lye to corn to end up with hominey or boiling vegetables to remove things like oxalic acid.

heat can also change the chemistry... or using acid like vinegar or citrus.

Or you can process flour until it's little more than pure starch and then make a big deal out of adding back the missing vitamins.

Or substitute artificial flavors to a concoction of fats, carbohydrates and salt and get the ultimate junk food of your choice.

it ends up that you really need to understand what it is you are consuming and what steps are needed to ensure you are getting adequate nutrition. this was hard earned knowledge gained by our ancestors and passed on through the generations.. It is today in our modern world that we have become disconnected from our environment and that information.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 11:33 AM

From late teens to early 30s I went through phases of near to total vegetarian;
for mixed reasons of ideological influences and lack of £££$$$...

But never vegan - the vegan I flatshared with was extreme to the extent of walking city streets
bare foot in all weather for most of the year

My worse period of malnourishment was when I lived off a diet of tomato soup and dried peas for a few months
whilst saving up for music equipment.. that was stupid.

Anyway, in my late 30s when I'd taken to regular gym workouts,
I got in a debate with the gym owner,
who declared I would never find a succesdful vegetarian, let alone vegan, bodybuilder.

We didn't have internet then, so no way could I dispute that...

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 11:03 AM

Quite a few high profile vegan athletes including bodybuilders out there now punkfolkrocker, notably Carl Lewis of course, who went vegan way back in 1990: "Carl Lewis: Olympic Medals through the Vegan Diet" "My best performances were when I was thirty years old and when I was vegan."

Another vegan day yesterday for me:
Butterbean, horseradish and parsley dip with toasted wholemeal pita breads for breakfast. Big bowl of cabbage, potato and caraway soup for lunch.
Huge baked potato, topped with mixed bean and sweetcorn chili, and a pile of red cabbage and onion slaw on the side for dinner.
Kcals: 1448, Protein: 48g, Fibre 44g, Fat 25g

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 11:15 AM

CS,

Your meals sound really nice, and I have great respect the path that you're going down.

Sadly, I can't help thinking that your 'cabbage, potato and caraway soup' would be considerably improved by a grating of mature cheddar, and your 'baked potato, topped with mixed bean and sweetcorn chilli' much enhanced by a big knob of butter...

Maybe I just wasn't supposed to be a Vegan...

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 11:30 AM

Ed, you're absolutely right in terms of flavour - butter and cheese are delicious, there's no two ways about it.

I adore cheese in all forms - in fact I'd far rather have a cheeseboard than pudding and will do so if eating out and it's an option. My avoidance of them isn't because I don't like them, or indeed for any ideological beliefs about animal husbandry, it's predominantly enlightened self-interest.

I have asthma that I've found is provoked by dairy. Also very high cholesterol - when last tested - that I've been told by my Doctor that I need to bring down. Plus I'm trying to keep my proportion of calories from fat under control while I lose weight (quite a lot of it). Otherwise both my soup and potato, might well be as you described.. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 09:25 PM

Corn and beans were mentioned as creating complete amino acids. Is this a reference to complex carbohydrates in general? Beans and rice, nuts and grains, there are lots of combinations that add up to complex carbohydrates. I used to have a list.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 10:36 PM

In my 20s I was pretty well informed about combining pulses and grains for amino acids..
I was also a fast reckless city cyclist.. my weight was 10 1/2 -> 11 stone. [I'm 5'10"]

In my 30s and 40s I trained seriously in the gym, eat a sensible balanced diet,
and drank heavily on weekends..
my weight was a lean muscular 13 -> 15 stone [seasonal fluctuations]

Now, after 6 or 7 years of close family illnesses & bereavements, and my own niggly health problems,
I'm a lazily omnivorous burnt out couch potato on blood presure & cholestrol tablets
weighing nearer 17 stone...
oh well.... at least I don't drink anymore..

One annoying thing I've noticed in the last couple of years,
it's now impossible to buy large economy bags of wholegrain rice
in any local shops and supermartkets.
Only extortionately priced small boxes of Uncle Ben's
[the racketeering bastards]

I'm lucky so far I havn't succumbed to diabetes,
so I know I gotta do something positive again about diet & exercise soon, before it's too late...

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 03:03 AM

Punkfolkrocker, I remember those wholefood co-ops that used to live down the dingy back allys of town. Usually run by a bearded bloke, the dried goods would be stored in big plastic tubs, weighed out onto traditional grocers scales with tin mugs and then packed into paper bags.

Sadly most of them seem to have been replaced by 'Health Food Shops' packed full of rather expensive and mostly unnecessary supplements for anxious and affluent women (at least the one nearest me certainly is) rather than affordable foods for err ordinary people, however you might be able to find a wholefoods co-op near you if you live in or near a city. Some do still exist so ask around. And some also now have online shops which deliver all over the country. That might be your best option.

Try these:

http://www.goodnessdirect.co.uk/cgi-local/frameset/sect/FRGCS-Catering_Sizes.html
http://www.ecogreenstore.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=191&zenid=4f7377289779427fa73a0400dfd88c1c
http://www.buywholefoodsonline.co.uk/rices


CS

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 03:32 AM

Stilly, yes not all plant foods have all the right amino acids in the right proportions for the body to synthesise protein from. Grains have more of some than others, while the balance will be different in seeds & nuts, and pulses (lentils & beans).

The traditional thinking was that you needed to 'combine' two of three of these different food groups (nuts with grains / nuts with beans / beans with grains / grains with nuts) at any one meal to be sure of getting the full complement of amino acids needed.

However modern nutrition science thinking is a lot more relaxed about specifically combining these three food groups in meals, as the body stores amino acids for later synthesis of protein - they don't get flushed away like water soluble vitamins for example. So long as your diet is balanced and varied, and mostly based on 'natural' foods or wholefoods, you should be OK.

I don't personally tend to think about combining these food groups, on a whole-food based diet it tends to happen for me anyway - as a byproduct of just eating certain foods I like. That may be because - by either happy coincidence or experience based pragmatism - a lot of traditional peasant foods tend to combine those foods anyway.

The staple foods of the rural poor in any culture tends (or has tended - this changes significantly with increased economic prosperity) to be predominantly plant based, so you will find a lot of suitable traditional recipes from around the world that fit into a veg diet very well. I make use of them myself.

Here's an example of how the kinds of foods I regularly eat which accidentally combine the above food groups: Hummus and pita breads (grain and bean), hopping john (grain and bean), nut roast (nuts with grain) bean burgers (beans with grain), minestrone soup (grain and bean), lentil soup with bread (bean and grain), etc.

So it's pretty easy to do. Though it's worth keeping a note of what your food habits are so that you know where you may be lacking, or where you're going wrong. As said below, a food tracker is a useful tool, at least initially until you know where you are with a new dietary routine.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 04:03 AM

Oh, I wouldn't worry too much about 'complex carbohydrates' they are something different to the amino acids from which protein is composed, though they coexist (along with small amounts of fat, and other nutrients) in carb dense / starchy foods such as grains and beans.

Carbs come in both 'simple' and 'complex' forms, 'simple' carbs (or sugars such as sugar/sucrose, honey, high fructose corn syrup, maple syrup etc.) are comprised of only one or two molecules and are swiftly broken down by the body to create energy.

Complex carbohydrates (or starches such as bread, potatoes, rice etc.), are comprised of strings of many molecules, it takes the body longer to break these down into energy (a good thing) than it does simple carbs / sugars.

Typically, especially if you're hoping to avoid diabetes for example, you should try to minimise or exclude 'simple carbs' where you do eat 'complex carbs' consume them in their unrefined (or less refined) state. The fibre in wholefoods slows the breaking down of complex carbs into simple carbs even further (again, a good thing.)

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 04:36 AM

Punkfolkrocker: "I'm lucky so far I havn't succumbed to diabetes,
so I know I gotta do something positive again about diet & exercise soon, before it's too late..."

It sounds like you already know what you need to do, but motivation can help. I'd recommend watching 'Vedgucated' and 'Forks over Knives' - you may be able to find them online free somewhere if you search about a bit.

This Oprah episode is fairly interesting: https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqIi3P1tUnDwAxl52BQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByZ2N0cmxpBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDBGdw

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 06:59 AM

Scott Jurek is another athlete who seems to do quite well without meat. As an endurance runner he definitely finds ways to get in the needed calories and essential nutrients.

His burger recipe is amazingly delicious. We've tweaked it a bit to serve our needs, and it's well-loved: http://scottjurek.com/eatandrun/recipes/

Not advocating either way, except for health! Thanks for all the great info and insights!

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 07:15 AM

Yeah - those backstreet hippy veggie co-ops and cafes...

Back in the late 70s / 80s / 90s I lived in big cities
- the cheap veg pasties and samosas were a right good treat after a few hours hiking or cycling..

..despite the odd small stones and health 'n' safety / food hygene defying
strange particles of woody debris..

all good roughage...

sadly long gone here where I now live ...

Just one small crap holland & barrets.
No rice, last time I looked in and asked...

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 07:24 AM

Nostalgia... back in my early to mid 20s..

just remembered the home made contraptions I used to sprout my own alfalfa and bean shoots in,
back when by necessity I lived frugally on about 20 pence per meal..

that left more supplementary benefit money for beer and guitar gear....

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 09:46 AM

Dani: "Scott Jurek is another athlete who seems to do quite well without meat. As an endurance runner he definitely finds ways to get in the needed calories and essential nutrients.
His burger recipe is amazingly delicious"

I will try that burger! It looks like a 'real' one :D