BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS

Subject: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 02:28 PM

I have to say that I really don't know what to think.

I can see it from both sides in some ways. Whilst I disagreed with a great deal of what he said, I wish Fred McCormick was here...

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 02:36 PM

It's a problem. It seems to me that a self-declared theocracy (and, worse, one that has the fundamental tenets of Islam badly wrong) is a bigger danger to the world than the entrenchment of a Russian client state in the Middle East, so on balance I'd favour working with Putin to remove Daesh, even if that also removes other opposition to Assad.

To my mind the problem is how to achieve that goal. Raining bombs did not work in Vietnam. Boots on the ground and the creation of an even more failed state area has gone badly wrong in Afghanistan Iraq and Libya.

So history teaches that a military "solution" will fail.

Is the best bet to keep pumping fleshly propaganda for a secular (and better still atheistic) political model in the best forms to reach the smartphones that now seem universal?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 02:48 PM

i read the other day that bombing would be like - imagine there is a mass brawl in the car park of a pub while 12 people who don't like each other throw in huge fireworks in an attempt to calm the situation down.

however, in syria -a large circle of UN troops should surround the conflict area. just behind them are nurses, doctors, therapists, musicians, artists, cooks and teachers with the engineers and builders etc. and no priests or politicians

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 03:02 PM

I was one of the 75% who responded to the survey against bombing.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 03:07 PM

As was I. But I admit to having to spend a long time thinking about it, since it seemed to be about picking the least bad out of awful alternatives

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 03:19 PM

Possible solution - errect the biggest sound system ever assembled and blast the daeshos with recordings of Bob Davenport - I guarantee surrender within 24 hours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 03:52 PM

Help Turkey close it's borders to ISIS volunteers
Stop the supply of arms to ISIS
Help cut the funding that ISIS are getting
Support moderates in the area.

Bombing has been a proven failure which cannot target the right people and only creates more radicalisation where it has happened.

All that being said, I think a free vote for all parties, where the individual MPs can vote with their conscience rather that their party, is the right way to go in the circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,#
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 04:06 PM

'So history teaches that a military "solution" will fail.'

What history teaches is that this type of military solution fails. Unless allied countries are prepared to send soldiers who in turn are told to take no prisoners and willing to carry out that order, the second way is diplomacy of a less violent nature. That will likely fail unless some country is prepared to offer up a pile of land for the Daesh fighters to live in. The third option is to ignore them and I doubt that will work because they hate being ignored. Helluva puzzle.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 04:42 PM

To quote Kipling on your land idea (though it was gold in his poem):


It is always a temptation
To a rich and lazy nation
To puff and look important and to say
Though we know we should defeat you
We have not the time to meet you
We will therefore give you cash to go away.

"And that is called 'Paying the Dane-geld',
But we've proved it again and again
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane"


No, I'm afraid the historical precedents for that approach are not good either. As you say. Hellova puzzle.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 04:53 PM

"where the individual MPs can vote with their conscience rather that their party".........Shurely shome mishtake Ed.   this is the Labour Party you are talking about, some of the people who took us into Iraq are still there.
The whole thing is a shambles, a recipe for disaster, there is already to many countries bombing without proper co- operation.

We should support Putin and Assad, I agree with Richard.
A Grand Coalition is required.

The US government are still demanding that Assad must go.....who do they think they are?   Democrats?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 04:59 PM

grand coalition - like the united nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 05:15 PM

one that has the fundamental tenets of Islam badly wrong

ISIS, in fact, apply the teachings of the Quran and the Hadiths, as codified in Islamic jurisprudence to the letter (which is, of course, the problem). Arguing that ISIS isn't "Islamic" in a normative sense is false and misleading.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 05:30 PM

No, guest of 0515, you are totally wrong. Series after series of Islamic scholars have lined up to explain why Daesh are unislamic and your assertions about the Koran are wrong.

I am worried however that Akenhateon agrees with me. I may have to reconsider.

The situation about a "free vote" seems to be confused. I last heard anything pretty directly from the House of Commons at about 1400 UK time and it is now 2230. Even then statements from Labour party spokespeople were inconsistent. I think the situation then was that Labour shadow cabinet members were freed from ministerial responsibility so they could speak in favour of bombing, and even vote in favour of it, without being thereby obliged to resign or be sacked from the shadow cabinet. They and all other Labour MPs were still however under a 3-line whip to vote against bombing.

The consequence of failure to observe ministerial responsibility is loss of the ministerial post (and if one is in government the extra salary that goes with it).

I ought perhaps to re-check but I think the only consequence of defying a 3 - line whip may be that the whip may be withdrawn. This does not require the MP to take the Chiltern Hundreds (resign as MP) but would normally mean that the MP could not at the next election stand as representative of the party whose whip he or she defied - so possibly losing their seat.

If anybody has accurate and definite more up-to-date news it would be appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 07:00 PM

If it looks like a troll and writes like a troll - you should ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 07:41 PM

Gnome's magic wand suggestions are no solution at all:

1: Help Turkey close it's borders to ISIS volunteers

Any indication at all from Erdogan that they want the border closed? NO
Turkey joined the coalition against IS and then promptly started bombing Kurdish Peshmerga positions.
Turkey is one of IS's main customers for their smuggled oil.

2: "Stop the supply of arms to ISIS"

With what they have taken from Iraqi and Syrian Army arsenals I do not think IS at the moment have any weapons supply problems.

3: Help cut the funding that ISIS are getting

IS are considered to be the richest terrorist group in the world, the territory they hold generates income for them so the only real way to cut their funding is to shift them out of the territory that they control. Their major source of income was from oil but airstrikes on oil related targets have significantly reduced this stream of income.
Support moderates in the area - so much for bombing having been proven a failure.

4: Support moderates in the area

Easier said than done - the time to have done this was months ago but Parliament rejected the idea. Whatever happens now will be too little, too late. The Kurds will be helped but they will only clear IS from Kurdish areas apart from in Iraq where they might try to regain control of Mosul.

When action against IS with the US supplying advisers and air power Obama stated quite clearly that it would take time - putting boots on the ground in any significant numbers will be counterproductive - better the Arabs do this moderately well than us going in and doing it perfectly (To paraphrase T.E.Lawrence)

Only real game in town is to back Putin and Assad, the refugees we've got until something happens to Assad, they won't be going back home while that man is in power.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 03:34 AM

So a couple of years ago, Cameron asked parliament for support in kicking Assad out. Now he wants support for kicking opposition to Assad. (Throwing in with Russia is tantamount to exactly that.)

No wonder those politicians who think before they vote are between a rock and a hard place. Military intelligence cannot be trusted to help form a view and the only certainty is that this isn't a leadership cult. You can kill every leader and cell in ISIS and it will take all of a couple of years to get them replaced by the ideology that you can't fight with toy soldiers. In fact, bombing them merely acts as a recruiting sergeant for the next lot. Plenty of fertile hiring fairs around too, after the West's interference to date in Middle East and Africa.

Me? I'd turn the tap off to Saudi Arabia. We speak of the intelligence they give us to help crush extremists but ignore their promotion of the cancer it is spawned from.

They use their right and left hands for different purposes if you hadn't noticed.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 03:48 AM

The notion that Putin is more interested in supporting Assad than destroying ISIS is laughable.

After Isis has been pushed back or hopefully eliminated, Assad will be re-elected with a huge majority.
Russia is arguably the prime target for Islamic terrorism and no nonsense Putin is the man to deal with it......unconstrained by "liberal" niceties.


If we have sense we will give up our cold war posture and assist....that can open many doors to many other types of co-operation......Power has shifted in the last ten years, time to realise it.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 04:00 AM

It gets better.

I might just nominate it for Private Eye's "Pseuds Corner"

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 04:45 AM

IS/Daesh is, first and foremost, an internal islamic problem, and possibly an arab problem as well. Saudi Arabia's Wahabi strain of Sunni Islam is positively liberal compared to the daesh interpretation of the Koran. Al-Baghdadi, the Daesh 'guru' is on record as calling for the destruction of, firstly, the saudi royal family and secondly, the destruction of all Shia Moslems. Only then would it be the turn of 'the infidels'. Daesh is a Sunni organisation with former members of Saddam Hussein's general staff running the military side of the operation and they would love nothing better than the US et al sending in ground troops. Besides illegal oil sales, bank robberies, protection rackets and kidnappings, financial support apparently also comes from rich saudis who consider Saudi Arabia too liberal.

Air strikes, from whoever, will not defeat Daesh, indeed, the collateral damage is no doubt, for them, a marvellous recruiting campaign. It seems to me that 'the west' is indulging in knee-jerk actionism with no concept at all of a coherent strategy and tenable solutions. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.........Iraq 2.0(?)

@Akenaton (01.12.2015, 03:48) That, of course, is why Putin is so busy bombing various syrian rebel groups, supporting the syrian army against the rebels and undertaking next to nothing against IS.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 04:45 AM

Gnome's magic wand suggestions are no solution at all

No magic wand suggested or even hinted at teribums. Taking a line from your mate's book, did you make that up?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 04:59 AM

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/debate-syria-missing-syrians-151130060932842.html

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 05:05 AM

Lynn, You are correct in stating that air strikes alone will not defeat ISIS and Putin is conducting strikes against anti Assad terrorists, to free up Assad's troops for the battle to push back and eliminate ISIS

The so called "moderate" rebels are far from moderate and are an impediment to the conduct of the ground war.
Without Assad there would be no ground defence against the spread of ISIS. If the West had its way Assad would have been blown to pieces by now and Syria would be in the same state as Libya.

You seem to have a good grasp of the Syrian situation, surely you don't think that a "liberal Democratic" government could survive in that environment.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 05:09 AM

It depends what you mean by "an Islamic problem". Most Islamic scholars are united that Da'esh has got its views on Islam badly wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Kampervan
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 05:18 AM

If you've got a few minutes to spare, watch this.
Robertr Fisk - How ISIS threatens the world

I think that it's a very good analysis.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 06:42 AM

Those opposing Assad are now terrorists according to Comrade Akenaton.

Funnily enough, his confusion and warmongering attitude doesn't put him in the tiny minority camp as it does on other subjects.

That's what's really worrying.

If Corbyn really does want to be led by constituent opinion on all matters, he may find his own views somewhat compromised. There are more armchair warriors out there than he thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 07:19 AM

The people who compromise Mr Corbyn's views are the majority of the shadow cabinet and the other career politicians still skulking under the Labour banner.
"liberalism" is no longer relevant; in either political or social terms......time is on OUR side.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 08:38 AM

Which side, Akenhateon, is "OUR side"? Your support for Terribilis makes it clear that you are not on the side of the ordinary people in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 09:21 AM

Mr T and I approach problems from different ends of the political spectrum, but at least one thing we share, is the ability to recognise the bloody problem in the first place.

All I ask from people in debate is honesty, something which the "liberal" left treat with utter contempt.

Teribus does not suffer fools or charlatans....he has my respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 09:43 AM

If you want honesty in debate, why refer to any view other than your own as "liberal" as a sneering contempt?

Not that you are the only shallow poorly educated fool.

The vast majority of people in The UK value honesty, equality, fair play and pragmatism. The stupidity of the person above in saying "Muslims will take over" is typical of the support some prats give to terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 09:59 AM

Wot he said

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 11:26 AM

I never sneer, but why do I treat many "liberal" left views with contempt?.......
"The vast majority of people in The UK value honesty, equality, fair play and pragmatism.".......shite like that for a start!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 01:29 PM

Luckily, there are almost 60 million people in The UK who have very different views to you.

In fact, up in Scotland there is a political party whose members value equality above all else. If they are really members, that is.

Sick puppy

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 02:42 PM

"The vast majority of people in The UK value honesty, equality, fair play and pragmatism.".......shite like that for a start!

Obviously measuring everyone else by his own standards. I find that most people in the UK do uphold these values. It is only complete knobheads who do not. Or who say that other people do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 03:03 PM

Tut tut. Don't blame the puppy for shitting on the carpet.

Mudcat is obviously inclusive and equal opportunity ridden, so make allowances when the little people and their prejudice is portrayed. If he doesn't think he is embarrassing he obviously isn't embarrassed. It's bliss apparently.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 03:07 PM

The vast majority of people in the UK, cant afford "honesty", have never seen or understand what equality or fair play REALLY means.

"pragmatism".......now I know your fucking joking!

Where do you people actually live? have you ever BEEN in a housing scheme?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 03:09 PM

I admire Corbyn's calm polite patience and perseverance under openly hostile interrogation from BBC political interviewers..

Though he looked fairly tired and on the edge of telling that woman grilling him today
to eff off if she can't just listen to and understand what he is explaining,
and stop interrupting his answers with confrontational biased loaded questions..... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 03:16 PM

Anybody see Hillary Benn on CH 4 news?    Snow asked him if he wasn't just positioning himself to take over the leadership....he nearly shit himself! JUDAS!!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 03:16 PM

"pragmatism".......now I know your fucking joking!

Where do you people actually live? have you ever BEEN in a housing scheme?

Have you ever looked up what pragmatism means? I thought I knew but, to be on the safe side, I looked it up as well. For the life of me I still can't imagine what the fuck it has got to do with housing schemes.

I suppose we should allow for senility and having fallen off roofs a few times, but some village appears to be missing it's idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 03:22 PM

Pragmatism involves choice.....the people I'm talking about simply don't have a choice, of any description.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 04:26 PM

I know that I have only a basic education, but I also know that "its" does not have an apostrophe.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 04:34 PM

Actually, for a while I collected rent in the housing estate that had the highest murder rate in the south of England. So yes, Akenhateon, I do know a bit about housing schemes.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 04:43 PM

I agree about the biased interviewing PFR.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 04:51 PM

Yes, it should not have an apostrophe. I apologise. If that is the sum of your argument I think you may have a problem. Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 04:53 PM

Richard, where is this "housing estate"....Sevenoaks?

Up in Scotland, that's the sort of job they give to convicted child molesters!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 05:03 PM

Earlier in the day, The BBC news room had 2 weasel labour MPs in the studio to rip into Ken Livingstone and demand his resignation
while Ken was stood out shivering in the cold somewhere outside..

He defeated them on every accusation and point raised
yet they were still encouraged by the BBC presenter to attack him like ravenous hyenas intent on the kill... 😠

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 05:19 PM

Yes PFR....That must be the "honesty, equality and fair play" that the troll was on about. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 08:42 PM

Akenhateon - to your racism add ignorance. There are areas fringing Sevenoaks where the child poverty rate has recently been estimated as 34% against the national average of 18%. But in fact the relevant area I worked in was near Gravesend. It and parts of Medway are in the North Kent black spot, and not at all nice leafy suburbs.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 08:48 PM

PFR - sadly the BBC is no so terrorised by Scumoron that it does his bidding. The once great and independent institution is no more.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 03:17 AM

One minute he reckons he lives in a nice lochside village and has had an idyllic Miss Marple fantasy styled existence, the next he rattles on about "housing schemes." Other than ensuring the roof leaks in the rain, what does he know?

More importantly, other than sit there agreeing with the resident Tory Terribulus on every point the fool makes, what suggestions does he have? He may as well spout them because his posts never get deleted unlike those decrying him. He just compared Richard Bridge to a child molester but his post remains. Why is that?

(Suggestions by him? Other than sneer at the very idea of equal opportunity, equal rights for all and sundry confused nonsense about his support for right wing republican extremists in The USA. The thread on Palin and Trump is weird enough but this confused old man actually likes them both..)

Meanwhile, Cameron has told would be rebel Tory MPs that they shouldn't walk through the lobby supporting a terrorist sympathiser. So much for debating whether the military can find answers to a mindset problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 03:50 AM

In electing Corbyn to be leader of the Labour Party the 150,000 "party members", many pitching in their £3 just to vote but having no real interest in the Party itself, the nation found itself with a political figure who it would appear will never under any circumstances do anything to defend this country, a political figure who for reasons best known to himself will always side with those who would do the population of this country harm - I think that is what Akenaton is referring to when he quite rightly rounds down on "liberal" left views and condemns them. As he obviously has no interest in looking after our nations best interest or the security of its population it is little wonder that he is subjected to "hostile" questioning.