BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 01:30 PM

I accept the definition of anti-semitism as formulated by the community that is its target not that of a few regressive leftists on an internet folk music forum.

Who should define anti-Semitism?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 01:44 PM

I accept the definition of anti-semitism as formulated by the community that is its target

No, Boo, if you can accuse the American Friends' Service Committee - which has served the cause of suffering humanity impartially since its founding - as opposed to small-minded idiots like yourself who do nothing consequential and only whine and point fingers - you accept the definition that you've cooked up in your own warped and bigoted little mind.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 01:57 PM

Jim,
Teribus implied it by suggesting that facts were held back

The names of all those guilty of antisemitic statements, and the offending statements themselves, were held back Jim!
Also the entire report into the OULC!

Steve, Jim asked "does anyone else claim it."
The answer is yes.
Do some people not count?

Jim,
there was no serious problem found.

Yes there was. That was why the inquiries were convened, and why those inquiries made so many recommendations to deal with it.

"every definition of anti-Semitism but yours is wrong"
You refuse to give us yours
Chakrabarti refused to give hers too.
We do have the EU criteria.http://www.antisem.eu/projects/eumc-working-definition-of-antisemitism/

Steve,
Frankly, I get along just fine without a definition.

You failed to recognise Naz Shah's antisemitic statements that were recognised by the Labour NEC and Shah herself, so you do not get along "just fine."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 02:01 PM

Greg,
you accept the definition that you've cooked up in your own warped and bigoted little mind.

Bobad accepted the definition provided by the European Working Group On Antisemitism, which all of you rejected.
It is you people you accept the definition that you've cooked up in your own warped and bigoted little minds, rejecting those in use by the EU and the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 02:03 PM

Say good-night, Professor. I'm not playing you game, nor BuBo's.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 02:09 PM

the European Working Group On Antisemitism

By the by, Professor, I thought y'all just voted yourselves OUT of the E.U. because they were a bunch of ignorant bureaucrats that couldn't tell their arses from a hole in the ground.

Now you SUPPORT the E.U. asnd its deliberations and pronouncements?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 02:31 PM

Not even the EU accepted that definition, and never did. Ditched years ago. You are a thoroughly dishonest man, Keith, and it's a disgrace that you choose to resurrect this now, considering that you were demolished by the sword of truth months ago.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 03:18 PM

No, Boo, if you can accuse the American Friends' Service Committee.....

I see you've joined the made-up-shit crowd.......no surprise that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 03:24 PM

The trouble is that the professor (Keith A of Hertford) is still smarting as a result of him being shown to be a racist. Not only has he been "outed" as being a liar, the Wheatcroft fiasco, he has now been "outed" as a racist.

His problem being instead of acknowledging he is in the wrong he will continue to dig and dig, seek to justify his own position which only serves to further undermine what little standing he(if he has any) has on this forum.

Ignorance can be rectified, the professors problem is far deeper and probably incurable.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 03:36 PM

Bobad accepted the definition provided by the European Working Group On Antisemitism, "
That definition includes that is is Antisemitic to blame the Jewish People for the actions of the Israeli Government.
Bobad persists on calling everybody who criticises Israel a Jew hating Antisemite - which is contrary to the definition - he is in fact blaming the Jews for Israeli atrocities.
Neith you or he are slightly interested in the Jewish people - you are entirely involved in defending Isreali terrorism, which is nothing to do with the Jews.
Even Jews who disagree with Israeli policy are attacked as being "self-hating (no apology or retraction yet - what kind of a worm are you?)
"and the offending statements themselves"
What offending statements - how do you know they are offensive if they were held back?
So far, the only statements made public (not by the Labour party) have been crticisms of Israel.   
"The answer is yes."
Who or is that to remain one of your little secrets, along with what statements were made.
So far, the people you have given who have suggested a serious problem were pro-Israeli activists, which confirms the charge that this has all been trumped up by that campaign.
What is the press not taking this up - it's an idael opportunity to bring down the Labour Party?
I get Murdoch's Times every day for the crossword.
Ever since the advent of Corbyn they have carried out a hate campaign against Labour with cartoons that make the old Anti-Irish Punch cartoons look like picture postcards - not a single word on antisemitism since the enquiries, not one - no accusations of a cover up - now why do you reckon taht is?.
This is a campaign by you and your two brain-dead mates long after the rest of the world has moved on.
"Chakrabarti refused to give hers too."
So what - I am not a member of the Labour Party, I don't support their policias and I don't vote for them.
What on earth does it have to do with this discussion?
Now, bout that retraction and apology!!
I think that, if you haven't the decency or the courage to retract and apologise forr your accusations, I really have finished with you people.
Your disgusting behaviour continues to foul up these threads.
You have no principles, no humaity and no decency - not one of you.
You reall are sorry excuses for human beings - all of you,
Happy to continue with anybody else, but you three raelly are the pits
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 03:48 PM

Bobad persists on calling everybody who criticises Israel a Jew hating Antisemite

More made-up-shit™ from the usual suspect......yawn!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 04:07 PM

Not so, bobad old fruit. The argument is rock-solid. People like you but who are in positions of power put the Israeli Jews in harm's way. There is no hope for the peace and security that the Jews in Israel deserve while people like Bibi and his predecessors are in charge. That makes them, and you, rock-solid antisemites. If you think that constantly upping the ante for seventy years by being belligerent with their neighbours and constantly mistreating and seeking conflict with the Palestinians is what's good for Israeli Jews, well you're absolutely not on their side, are you? With "friends" like you and Keith the Jewish people of Israel and everywhere else will never be safe. And you are the threat, not a few silly but ultimately harmless people who should have engaged their brains before opening their mouths.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 04:29 PM

I would ask anybody to show a post where I have said that everybody who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite but that request has become redundant with the made-up-shit™ crowd as they have not ever backed up one of their accusations and they are going to now........ho hum!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 05:16 PM

Jim Carroll - 01 Aug 16 - 08:55 AM

"The Labour party party dealt with the criticism and made recommendations - nothing from the Tories yet and nothing from you pair about the fact that Britain has a racist foreign Secretary - you made enough fuss about the Labour problem - doesn't racism and bigotry count if it comes from the right - obviously not."

The thread title is what Carroll?

Has Britain got a "racist" Foreign Secretary? Just because you think it so Jom does not actually make it so thankfully.

"The decision not to publish details of the Oxford enquiry was, as afar as I am concerned, a correct one.
It involved young people in the process of getting an education whose futuers depend on their not being a scandal attached to them in any shape or form - to people like you, being accused is tantamount to their being guilty, as you have amply demonstrated here."

Big fan of Political Party "cover-ups" are you Jom? Particularly if the cover-up is to protect the reputations of the next generation of the Labour Party's "young bloods" who may or may not have been ever so slightly anti-semetic whilst up at Oxford what?

"If there had been a serious problem, I have no doubt that the authorities would have dealt with it - in the light of the publicity this has received they could not afford to do otherwise."

Ah so just because you think that all is well - such astounding faith in the political establishment of the UK for someone whose views normally display such vehement and rabid Anglophobia. It was because of the publicity this matter received and what was contained in the report that Labour's NEC decided that it should not be published.

"If you have any information that the verdict that was reached was inaccurate or rigged, please offer it"

Ehmmmm Jom, what verdict are you wittering on about? There hasn't even been a trial. One thing is blindingly obvious though, after having read Baroness Royall's Report of her Investigation into the Oxford University Labour Club, Labour's National Executive Council decided that it was against the best interests of the Labour Party to have it's contents known by the British public.

"do you really think you are going to walk away from once again accusing me of making things up?"

Who's "walking away" Jom? You most certainly have "made stuff up" you said that during the Great War Lord Kitchener was forced to resign. So c'mon Jim tell us all when that was, give us the date, seeing as how you didn't make it up. Not "walking away" Jom - on the contrary we could open a thread on "Jim Carroll Made-Up-Shit" - the ball is in your court - all you need to prove me wrong is a date - the date Lord Kitchener was forced to resign as Secretary of State for War (Hint: It must be sometime between 5th August, 1914 and the 5th June, 1916.)

"Now - how about a withdrawal and an apology for suggesting that I made up the "self-hating Jews" statement"

And I suggested all this when Jom? Or are you just rambling on aimlessly in your usual incoherent style?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 05:24 PM

No he isn't, but you are. Listen to yourself.

Well, bobad, you've told us this week that you're not an Islamophobe and you're not an an antisemite either. Have you considered that you could be one of each? After all, there are two of you!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 05:29 PM

Raggy, taking into account what you have stated in your post - "Raggytash - 01 Aug 16 - 09:09 AM" - could you please tell me who is this "professor" chap you keep referring to?

"you continue to refer to me a Raggy, Jim as Jom (ever so childish) and Steve Shaw as Shaw. This not only shows a lack of intelligence it also clearly demonstrates a lack of education."

No Raggy what it shows quite clearly is my complete and utter lack of respect for any of you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 05:37 PM

my complete and utter lack of respect for any of you.

I'm sure they're gutted, T-Bird. Myself, I'd wear it as a badge of honor!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 05:49 PM

I see you've joined the made-up-shit crowd

Well, Bubo, on checking I see that your post a week back condeming the AFSC as antisemitic and my response to it at the time have both mysteriously disappeared!

However, I'm sure that there are others here beside myself that remember that it did in fact exist.

Now run along and cook up some more of YOUR made-up-shit.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 07:24 PM

Why don't you reprint it then and we'll all see if I condemned the AFSC as anti-Semitic or if it just made-up-shit™ from you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 07:27 PM

Well, Teribus, if you ever told me that you "respected" me I think I'd have to submit to therapy to find out where I'd gone so badly wrong. Just consider: there's you, there's bobad, there's Keith and (if you're really unlucky) there's akenaton. Our working at getting your "respect" is our absolute bottom priority. You need to take stock, old chap. Only Keith is listening. That should make you feel uncomfortable. The purpose of debate is to persuade. You work against yourself in that regard, big time.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 08:08 PM

Bobad, you have a long history in both your guises of trying to shoot down anyone who either declares against the Israeli regime or who supports the Palestinian cause. You never see human beings as human beings. You accuse Hamas of killing the women and children in Gaza who the whole world can see were killed by IDF shells and rockets. You accept no criticism of the Israeli regime, ever. You define antisemitism in a way that puts Jewish people in a constant firing line, just like Bibi does. You don't see the irony of your putting Jews in harm's way in that regard. You are a hundred times more antisemitic than any Labour pottymouth. You are the enemy, just like Keith, of all the Jewish people. Yet you call us names. Oh, the irony.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 08:30 PM

You accuse Hamas of killing the women and children in Gaza

No I never said that, just more made-up-shit™ from you.

What I may have said, and will say it again, is that Hamas starts wars with Israel knowing that they will retaliate then hides behind it's citizens so that it can use their deaths for propaganda. This makes them responsible for the deaths of it's citizens. This is plainly obvious to everyone except for Jew haters who naturally blame Israel for defending itself.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 09:33 PM

Jew haters who naturally blame Israel

Yup, Bubo, just like the thousands of Israeli citizens of the Jewish faith who oppose the policies of the Israeli government and the atocities they commit.

Jew-hating antisemites every one of 'em, right?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 09:48 PM

just like the thousands of Israeli citizens of the Jewish faith who oppose the policies of the Israeli government and the atocities [sic] they commit.

More unsubstantiated made-up-shit™ from the usual suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 01:06 AM

Greg F. - 01 Aug 16 - 05:37 PM

As if Greg F. - you don't even appear on the radar.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 01:47 AM

bobad - 01 Aug 16 - 08:30 PM

"What I may have said, and will say it again, is that Hamas starts wars with Israel knowing that they will retaliate then hides behind it's citizens so that it can use their deaths for propaganda."

What bobad says there is perfectly true, Hamas themselves make no secret of it, their spokesmen have even broadcast it as deliberate policy in televised interviews.

Disproportionate death tolls could have something to do with different approaches taken:

Israel:
15,000 missiles fired indiscriminately into Israel from Gaza since 2005 resulted in the Israeli Government creating "Iron Dome" - a system of warning radars that detect the launch of these missiles that provides the civilian population with audible warning of attack so that the population can enter thousands of shelters specifically built by the Israeli Government located in the areas subject to these attacks in order to protect the population.

Gaza:
15,000 missiles manufactured, stored, prepared and launched from within and from sites adjacent to schools, hospitals, and other sensitive location in the full knowledge that to protect it's own citizens Israel must engage those launch sites. While the IDF provide numerous and intensive warnings Hamas orders the civilian population of Gaza to ignore them, while the "fighters" and leaders of Hamas take shelter deep underground in concrete and steel bunkers that they have specifically built to protect themselves.

Israel's ultimate responsibility is to ensure the safety and security from attack of it's own citizens - it cannot be blamed for doing so - I would expect the same of my Government if this country came under attack.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 03:05 AM

Well there you go Terribluster at least I tried, so don't start running to the Mods when you get upset.

" Has Britain got a "racist" Foreign Secretary? Just because you think it so Jom does not actually make it so thankfully"

Are you really that thick (don't bother to respond to that I already know the answer), do you not read the papers or watch the News or even read link provided on here. It would seem not. Johnson has, over the years, made several racist comments which he has then had to apologise for.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 03:38 AM

Heh Heh Heh

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 03:39 AM

Rag,
Instead of calling me silly names like "racist," how about actually challenging something I have actually said.
It will never happen because you have nothing but lies and made up shit Rag.

It would seem not. Johnson has, over the years, made several racist comments which he has then had to apologise for.

If that is true it is disgusting, but all you have produced so far is a word that was not considered racist in this or any country other than USA.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 03:55 AM

You keep denying it is racist professor. You have been given examples where politicians have been castigated over many years for using the word and still you continue. (Johnson 2008, Powell 1968)

Naming you as a racist is not "silly name" calling. It is merely an acknowledgement of the fact that it is now beyond any doubt that you are a racist but please keep digging, it quite entertaining.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 03:57 AM

"The thread title is what Carroll?"
My title is what shithead?
"Has Britain got a "racist" Foreign Secretary? "
Yes - his racist statements make him a racist - nothing to do with what I think
JOHNSON the RACIST
Not racist to those who agree with him, of which, I have no doubt, you are one.
"Big fan of Political Party "cover-ups" are you Jom?"
I've given my reasons why I agree with the decision, if it was a cover up, it would have been condemned widely by the press.
You have refused to comment on the Party wide cover up of the racism and Islamophobia in the Tory Party, so I assume you are.
"Ehmmmm Jom, "
Ehmmmm, or resident little Fuehrer
"You most certainly have "made stuff up"2
Prove it - with links - get somebody to show you how to make one.
"you said that during the Great War Lord Kitchener was forced to resign."
Kitchener was forced to offer his resignation after is causing the death of British soldiers by having the wrong shells sent
"The admitted fact is that Lord Kitchener ordered the wrong kind of shell – the same kind of shell which he used largely against the Boers in 1900. He persisted in sending shrapnel – a useless weapon in trench warfare..... He alone was to advise the government and issue orders to commanders in the field. Kitchener's authority was more or less reduced to matters of manpower and recruitment.
As he himself put it, he was 'curtailed to feeding and clothing the army'. [23] The same men who had dragged Kitchener into the War Office in 1914 had effectively stripped him of his power but did not want his resignation. Each time he offered or threatened to resign, Asquith persuaded him that it was his duty to serve the King. [24] Essentially, Kitchener provided a buffer between the prime minister and his critics. Why did he not force the issue and resign, despite Asquith's insistence that he stayed? Kitchener was a proud man, yet he stood stripped of meaningful power like a glorified quartermaster. "
KITCHENER'S LETHAL BLUNDERING
- overstated maybe, but far from "made up" - your's and you mate's idiocy makes it unnecessary to make anything up, even if we were so inclined.
You, on the other hand, make up virtually every one of your claims, which is why you refuse to verify them with real information.
"Anglophobia"
You are the one who despises the British people by describing them lazy scroungers and demand they be forced to be turned into an itinerant work force and forced to live in - what exactly - tent towns, hostels, sleeping in the park... ? You refuse to share that pearl of wisdom
You also despise British achievements by describing British industry as "crap" and unworthy of support and insisting that we have to buy abroad.
The only respect you have for Britain is for the predatory rich, the monarch and the military (of which, you claim somewhat unbelievably, to have been one) - that is not Britain - it's just the decorative trimmings, the State mechanism and the hangers on.
Your insistence that the interests of the people must be subservient to The State is by definition, what makes you the Fascist you are.
"And I suggested all this when Jom? "
You didn't - Keith did
My remarks were addressed to him, if you managed to conquor your illiteracy and read what is written, you would know that - it's been pointed out often enough.
Surprisingly, the Universe does not revolve around what you have to say - you are a very unimportant incidental to these discussions - you are merely an unbelievably nasty and unstable irritant who is largely tolerated by a fairly easy-going group of people.
I was amused when you claimed that armaments was your thing - it brought back memories of your boastfully producing a photograph of your penis-substitute gun on the Homs (I think) thread - little more than an underdeveloped 'Good ol' Boy' at heart
Enough of these pleasantries - if you have any real evidence of a cover-up or antisemitism in the Labour Party, produce it (with evidence) - your one-man claims have ceased to be entertaining (in a bizarre way) and have now become somewhat tedious
What is that Antisemitism - how many are involved - where can we find that information - who else makes these claims - how do they compare to the racism, cover-up of Islamophobia - the bullying and the misogyny of the Tory Party?
I've responded to all your points - let's see how you go with these?
If you don't provide accompanying information, I really can't be arsed responding any more - I've had enough of your blustering bullshit   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 04:04 AM

"Instead of calling me silly names like "racist," how about actually challenging something I have actually said."
You really don't want your "Pakistani cultural implants" dragged up again, do you
What are you, masochist?
Your contributions make you a racist Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 04:54 AM

Rag,
Again, it is easy for anyone, even you, to call me silly names like racist, but you still can not actually challenge anything I actually say because all you have is lies and made up shit!

Jim,
You really don't want your "Pakistani cultural implants" dragged up again, do you

Yes please!
It is not racist to believe eminent members of that community when they ascribe certain offending to aspects of their culture.
Why don't you believe them?
Surely you do not imagine you know more about it!

This cropped up in 2011. They have not changed their views and I still see no reason to disbelieve them. Find me someone with actual knowledge who does.
Not, Nazir Afzal, Crown Prosecution Service's lead on child sexual abuse or Shaista Gohir, chair of Muslim Women's Network UK for a start.
"The Muslim community must accept and address the fact that Asian and Pakistani men are disproportionately involved in "localised, street grooming" of vulnerable girls, one of the UK's most senior prosecutors has said.

Nazir Afzal, the Crown Prosecution Service's lead on child sexual abuse, told a meeting of Muslims in Bradford on Thursday night that the community had to address the issue of street grooming and that Muslims could not assume that "someone else is dealing with it for us".

"We do have an issue with people of our ethnicity – it's not the issue but an issue – and we have to take care of it, we have to deal with it. The solution comes from within."

"Asked why Pakistani men are overrepresented in statistics relating to on-street grooming, Shaista Gohir, chair of Muslim Women's Network UK, said it was a complex issue but partly stemmed from a lack of respect for women and girls."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/31/muslim-community-street-grooming-nazir-afzal

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 05:08 AM

"It is not racist to believe eminent members of that community when they ascribe certain offending to aspects of their culture."
Whoevey you claimed said it, to describe the entire male Pakistani poplation of Britain is culturally implanted to rape children is deeply (and illegally) racist
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 05:11 AM

Naming someone as a racist as you are is not "silly name calling" it is a serious issue and one that creates deep divides in any country.

You have failed to acknowledge that the word "piccanniny" is a racist term even though politicians have been castigated for using the term for almost 50 years. The mere fact that YOU don't acknowledge the term for what it is does not make the word acceptable. It is NOT acceptable, not today , not yesterday, not in 2008 when Boris Johnson issued an apology and not in 1968 when Enoch Powell controversially used the term.

Your refusal to accept the word as repugnant marks you down as a racist. No if's, no but's, no maybe's.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 05:13 AM

I just said I believed those people. Nothing racist in that.
They all ascribed the offending to culture.
Everyone is affected in some way, however slight, by the culture they have grown up with.

The "implanted" expression did not come from me. That was how the question was put to me.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 05:21 AM

Rag,

You have failed to acknowledge that the word "piccanniny" is a racist term

Yes I have.
It has been in USA for decades, and is becoming more un-PC here lately, but that is recent.
Proof, this old thread, thread.cfm?threadid=33069#438827

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 05:29 AM

Rag,
politicians have been castigated for using the term for almost 50 years.

Only in USA.

The mere fact that YOU don't acknowledge the term for what it is does not make the word acceptable

Not just me. Read the thread.

, not in 2008 when Boris Johnson issued an apology

He actually said it back in 2003, and nobody thought anything of it then.
He denied that it was racist, and just apologised that his words had caused offence.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 05:45 AM

Enoch Powell in BRITAIN in 1968. Can you not read nor understand. 1968 is forty eight years ago.

Keep digging professor, the hole you're in is getting deeper with every post.

Why not do what you normally do and go crying to the Mods, or perhaps you realise that they too know the term is racist.

You cannot retract what is typed here, I'm would think that it is already noted on other web sites.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 06:03 AM

"I just said I believed those people. "
Nobody has ever said such a thing - you have never produced a single statement whic implicates the entire male Pakistani population in such a thing, you stated it as your own belief than desperately sought (and never found) statements that come near eves claiming such a thing
Immaterial anyway - any statement that accuses an entire population of being potentially rapists because of their culture is as extreme racist as it gets - whoever did or din't say it.
It is as culturally denigrating as claiming all black men have big dicks and want to have white women
The number of male Pakistanis (or other Muslims) involved in street grooming is less than a thousand - the Pakistani Population in Britain exceeds one million - so much for your "all male Pakistanis")
I repeat - had you made this statement publicly you would have been prosecuted.
As you still repeat your belief in it, you are still an extreme racist - end of story.
Piccanniny is a racist term, Johnson was cited in the press as being a racist when he used it - he is a racist and Britain has a racist Foreign Secretary - also end of story.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 06:07 AM

"The moving fingers writes; and having writ moves on, nor all thy Piety nor wit shall lure it back to cancel out half a line, nor all thy tears wash out one word of it"

Prophetic words from Omar Khayyam.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 06:45 AM

Jim,
Nobody has ever said such a thing -

They certainly have!
I quoted such figures then as Alibhai-Brown, Ahmed and Shafiq.
They all said that it was culture that led to the offending.
I just said I believed them. Why do you dismiss them all?
I neither knew nor know anything about that culture and could not form an opinion, but why would anyone dismiss their statements, and the many, many more that have been made by other prominent people since that 2011 discussion.

I always acknowledged that the offending was limited to a tiny minority.
I never have and never would make any racist statement, which is why your silly name calling is just that.

Raggy,
Powell was much criticised for his inflamatory statements at the time, but not for his use of that word.
Also, he left the Tory Party and supported Labour at the 74 election.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 06:57 AM

Returning to the subject, this author details some more examples of antisemitism from the Labour Left.

""The Jews are rallying!" wrote Naz Shah in an infamous Facebook post just months before she was elected Labour MP for Bradford West. "Your school education system only tells you about Anne Frank and the six million Zionists [my emphasis] that were killed by Hitler", declared a Facebook post shared by Khadim Hussain, then a Labour Party councillor and formerly Lord Mayor of Bradford. "Many people know about who was behind 9/11 and also who is behind Isis. I've nothing against Jews … just sharing it!" declared Beinazir Lasharie, a Labour councillor in the London borough of Kensington and Chelsea.

Most notoriously, Ken Livingstone, then a member of the Labour Party's National Executive Committee and a former Labour Mayor of London, claimed in a radio interview in April this year that Hitler had been a supporter of Zionism before he "went mad and ended up killing six million Jews". Livingstone's bizarre and mischievous allegations have been refuted by a raft of eminent historians including Rainer Schulze, Professor of Modern European History at Essex University. Schulze unequivocally dismissed Livingstone's arguments, emphasising that: "[a]ny claim that Nazis and Zionists ever shared a common goal is not only cynical and disingenuous, but a distortion of clearly established historical fact."

The statements by Shah, Hussain, Lasharie and Livingstone – along with numerous other allegedly racist, anti-Semitic or inflammatory comments by individuals associated with Labour – have led to fifty suspensions from the Party. They also prompted Labour's Leader, Jeremy Corbyn, to convene an Inquiry into anti-Semitism and other forms of racism within the Party."

"As several commentators have pointed out, there is a growing tendency on the Left to disregard basic and important distinctions between such categories as Jews, "Zionists" and citizens of the state of Israel. Instead, Jews are frequently viewed by those on the Left as collectively responsible for the actions of Israel. As the Guardian columnist, Jonathan Freedland, has observed, the term "Zionism" has become "a codeword" in the rhetoric of the Left "that bridges from Israel to the wider Jewish world, hinting at the age-old, anti-semitic notion of a shadowy, global power, operating behind the scenes"."
https://www.socialeurope.eu/2016/08/where-left-meets-right-anti-semitism-in-europe/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 07:28 AM

Are you really utterly incapable of reading the printed word ?

"The term was CONTROVERSIALLY used (wide grinning piccaninnies)by the British Conservative politician in his "Rivers of Blood" speech on 20th April 1968"

It caused a furore then, it was not acceptable then nor it is acceptable now except of course to a racist.

The moving finger writes................... Weep and wail as much as you like, cry to the Mods if you want to. You, as normal, will try to disassociate yourself from the words you have written but rest assured people will not forget.

I don't think there's anything further to be gained from any other posts.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 08:10 AM

This from the thread linked to by Keith

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: vindelis - PM
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 07:57 PM

Well you learn something new every day. I will have to add this to my list of words and terms not to be used in the 'UK' way, if I ever visit the United States.

appears to support his contention that the word did not carry the same baggage in the UK as in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 08:21 AM

"Kitchener was forced to offer his resignation after is causing the death of British soldiers by having the wrong shells sent"

Ah Jom but that is not what you originally said was it? That is what you changed your position to, without apologising for your error, in stating that Kitchener was forced to resign. Simple truth was that Kitchener was not forced to do anything of the sort. Your original post on the subject was "Jim Carroll Made-Up-Shit".

Kitchener was not even forced into offering his resignation if you look into the matter. But there again maybe Jom can tell us who it was that forced him to tender his resignation.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 10:13 AM

Bobad,

The professor first cited McGarth of Harlow. This is a classic example of him taking a quote to perverting it to mean something else.

What McGarth of Harlow actually said was:

"When I was growing up and where I was growing up, it was a word that might be used for any toddler. It's a pretty word, pity it's been twisted and used as a vehicle for racists, but that's how it goes. Maybe if white people started using it for their own children it could get rehabilitated"

In other words it had been used at one time but had become "twisted AND USED AS A VEHICLE FOR RACISTS BUT THAT'S HOW IT GOES"

McGrath acknowledged it as a racist slur. It certainly had when I was a child and it certainly had by 1968 when used by Enoch Powell. That is FORTY EIGHT years ago.

You yourself said it was taboo in the states by the late 30's well we were a little behind but by the 60's it was not a word to use.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 10:28 AM

Raggy in what context did Johnson use the word?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 10:30 AM

Q. Yup, Bubo, just like the thousands of Israeli citizens of the Jewish faith who oppose the policies of the Israeli government and the atocities they commit.

A: More unsubstantiated made-up-shit.

So, Bubo, you're saying these folks dont exist - as well as others of the Jewish faith all over the world who oppose the policies of the Israeli Government?

And you talk about "made-up shit"??

Amusing - were it not so pitiful.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 16 - 10:32 AM

we were a little behind but by the 60's it was not a word to use.

The person who made the post I reproduced doesn't appear to share your opinion.