BS: to accept and permit failure

Subject: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: keberoxu
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 05:08 PM

My life has been long and eventful enough to look very different, in retrospect, from the way it looked when it was happening, also from the way it looked early on when imagining a future -- which future is now the past. Yes, this is yet another reflection/introspection thread, take it or leave it. That means turning the focus inward and observing how I live with myself and with who I have been and what I have done.

Failure is a word that summons knee-jerk responses. I can't do much about the responses of others, apart from my comprehension that what a person perceives in failure, is a perception that has probably been schooled, taught, learned, and reinforced. Splitting hairs about "mistake" versus "failure" doesn't much interest me, although some people make a big deal out of the distinction.

Without getting too explicit with private details here, when I look at myself and perceive failure, usually it has to do with relationships with others and with being part of someone else's life and having others in my life. To do with others, or myself, getting hurt, with consequences that are irreversible and challenging. Yes, trauma is in there; but not limited to trauma, also things that just plain cause harm and sorrow.

Today I find that I no longer have the option of rejecting myself in any part. For most of my life I have rejected parts of myself strenuously, and perhaps most strenuously when I was unconscious about doing so. So the context of this thread title, is self-acceptance and giving myself permission to be an entire self with no rejected bits and pieces. This has to include the aspects of my self that are responsible for inexcusable behavior and indefensible actions.

In order to accept and embrace my self, in order to progress from ill-being to wholeness, I have to accept my own failures and give myself permission to be someone who has failed, and on more than one occasion. There are attitudes in society which are holistic enough to do so, along with attitudes which are more or less intolerant of failure. As for me, much of my experience has been strongly influenced by a learned intolerance of failure; and today's experience, consideration of the possibility that failure has its place in the greater scheme of things, is a new and different experience for me, regardless of lip-service to an attitude of tolerance at any given time. Sorry don't mean to sound pretentious or windy here, this is my struggle to speak reasonably about a question that an issue that rouses deep and sensitive emotion. Thanks for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 05:26 PM

keberoxu, I do wonder if the word 'failure' should be banned from our vocabulary. It's so judgemental and never takes into consideration the circumstances, the childhood experiences of the person concerned and the pressures on him/her. Also, society seems to demand that an individual conform to its idea of 'normal', a sort of one-size-fits-all, whereas each one of us is different, will react differently and will feel differently in any given situation.

I used to be rather as you describe, beating myself up regularly for perceived 'sins' or 'failures'. I was blaming and judging myself constantly and being very unkind to myself in doing so. Now I'm quite old, this self-torture has stopped and I can see things a bit more wisely.

I have become very suspicious of those two words 'failure' and 'success'. I've become much fonder of that delightful word 'acceptance'! I also love the word 'kindness', to oneself and to others.
I found your post most interesting, and I for one can relate personally to what you are saying.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 10:05 PM

Failure is only the door to learning.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: Andrez
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 10:59 PM

Thanks for sharing this Keberoxu. Having lost my mother (a refugee and boat person from Europe and WWII) at 87 a few months ago and writing her obituary while going through her detailed papers, aspects of what you say resonate for me too as I reflect and look back on growing up and our relationship in past times.

Now I know I cant change the past but that doesn't mean I/we cant look back and still draw lessons that have relevance to the present or to the near future as my/our life paths slowly wind down. Hopefully you will be able to construct a working solution and that you can live with that in reasonable comfort. Hopefully you might also have people around you who can support you in your endeavours as well.

Kind regards and best wishes Kbx :-)

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 11:47 PM

Much of this sounds like a summation of the cold war.

Elders knew that young people have a hard time thinking for themselves so they took advantage.

This kind of exploitation can also be done by religions as well as governments.

Like Rap, "Too soon old, too late smart."

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 07:16 AM

I have 2 choice epithets which I trot out (at the end) when advising people on a given subject:

'ere! Take my advice, I'm not using it.

&

I have learned so much from my mistakes, that I am thinking of making another

and, by the by, it looks like I am about to make one of two mutually exclusive mistakes. And I am not happy with the fates, for offering such conflicting choice, right now! And knowing there are peeps who would be envious of those choices makes not one jot of difference!

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 09:41 AM

PTSD sounds a lot like this. For a person to have reached an acceptance and disclosure that feels good is a great indication the worst is over. People lucky enough to have comrades to joke with, bust balls and open up about the regret, put the past behind faster but any good relationship will do the trick. The eventual freedom from anguish feels great. Normal occasional regret replaces the night with day.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: CupOfTea
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 09:56 AM

It is unfortunate that "failure" is such an emotionally, critically & morally charged word for a state that is a necessary part of the spectrum of our experiences. And beating ourselves up over it is detrimental to any path to "success." Yer on the right track there.

Having some of my most intense philosophical debates with an engineer, I tend to see failure as part of the bell curve of how people/things/situations/gizmos work. Not a sin, not a reflection on the value of the individual or thing involved, just a fact. Whatever it was you wanted or expected to happen, did not. I think people as well as materials can be "tested to failure" - it shows you the limits of your capacity, but it hardly makes it a sin to fail. Identifying that breaking point gives you knowledge to improve, correct or even avoid situations like that in the future.

In so many situations, failure is a necessary step to ultimate success. Most situations you can't get ANYTHING 100% correct the first time. Intolerace of failure is only going to screw up that learning curve, and your being willing to permit failure gives you a clear head to succeed. Good on yez.

Joanne in Cleveland, failing spectacularly at all sorts of things.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: keberoxu
Date: 13 Sep 16 - 05:21 PM

many thanks, everyone, just what was needed

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 Sep 16 - 04:50 PM

Another contributing factor to this attachment of the feelings and thoughts, it occurs to me, is guilt. Guilt, and need.

The connection to my upbringing in my family of origin is easy to find here. An attachment of need instead of affection or love; and, in an environment of verbal aggression and control, guilt gets in there too.

This seems to be part of a bereavement/grieving process. Letting go of guilt and shame is certainly part of coming to terms with failure and mistakes. This has been a lengthy, tedious, messy job, and I had to confront a lot of denial and anger before I could see the guilt and shame for what they are.

No wonder post-traumatic stress is kicking in. It will help to see this as part of a natural healing process, moving in a positive direction. Thanks for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: Andrez
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 09:43 AM

I think you summed things up nicely in the original post saying:

"the context of this thread title, is self-acceptance and giving myself permission to be an entire self with no rejected bits and pieces".

Similarly, the past is just that, something we cant change. That said we do have control over how we relate and respond to issues arising from the past. "Letting go" and confronting "denial and anger", despite the pain associated with the process are good examples of this and should help achieve your goal of "an entire self with no rejected bits…...".

None of us are perfect in this regard and we each have to follow our own paths to acquiring these skills for ourselves, so more power to you Keberoxu and thank you for writing and sharing stuff that really isnt easy to share.

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 04:00 PM

There is a statement that I am having to affirm repeatedly to myself, as I take responsibility for the difficult parts of myself:

There is a part of me that is not to be denied;
and at the same time,
this part of me is not to be trusted.

So such parts of me are like my children, and must be parented, supervised, responded to, and accepted as they are. As a childless non-parent adult, this takes some getting used to.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 05:37 PM

the guy who never made mistakes, never made anything.

The failures that I find hardest to give up are the ones where I relied on others to help fulfill my dreams. Collaboration in pursuance of bonding.
Now maybe I no longer set such store in "not letting go", but on the other hand, the only thing I rely on to achieve simple goals is a partner to dance with. Big dreams, are all mine now. Learned that several times over.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: Andrez
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 07:29 PM

Although the poem below comes from another health domain I think it may have some relevance to the current discussion. Take from it what you will. It certainly floored me when I first found it and reflected on it. Happy to share it with you.

"The problem, unstated till now, is how
To live in a damaged body
In a world where pain is meant to be gagged
Uncured, un-grieved over. The problem is
To connect, without hysteria, the pain
Of anyone's body with the pain of the world".

Cheers,

Andrez

Source: Morris, J (2001). Impairment and disability: constructing an ethics of care which promotes human rights, Hypatia, Vol. 16, No 4.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Sep 16 - 11:20 AM

It's required, I would say. How can you find your limits, else?

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Sep 16 - 08:10 AM

"Getting to the top is optional. Getting down is mandatory." 

Ed Viesturs

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 16 - 04:56 PM

I never liked statements that sound like an ultimatum. All things change. "Part of me is never to be denied...or trusted."

For your own self confidence you should know even if everything somehow gets reversed and goes South there is open ended medical help.


https://www.drugs.com/comments/ketamine/

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Sep 16 - 05:40 AM

Personally I rarely look at anything in terms of success or failure. It turned out differently than you planned? That's interesting and something to give you a mental fillip while you deal with it. You got driving somewhere? New places to explore. You missed meeting up with someone as a result? Probably got a silly tale to tell them of how stupid you were to miss the signpost next time you meet.

I once got so lost going to an interview I ended up over a hundred miles away from where I should have been. Had a crazy story to tell for years afterwards.

I don't subscribe to this self help "every setback is a new challenge" attitude either: striving for 'success' the whole time is overrated.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Sep 16 - 05:49 AM

This sums up my attitude pretty well

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Sep 16 - 10:00 AM

"I can't give you a sure-fire formula for success, but I can give you a formula for failure: try to please everybody all the time." 

Herbert Bayard Swope

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 16 - 07:22 PM

"Failure" is appropriate when referring to unsuccesful attempts. It should never be used as a noun applied to people. A person may fail, but should never be referred to as being "a failure".

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 05:15 PM

I just voted ear-ly, neener neener NEE-NER.

Ugh.

The next four years look like a failure in advance. It would have felt worst of all to choose not to vote -- so I voted, but it really doesn't feel good.

What did feel good was not having to stand in line at the polls.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 07:06 PM

This poem was learned at university when I was a student -- not fully memorized, but what I remember, I remember well. I'll only quote pieces of it. Old man Yeats was autobiographical here, and much of what he wrote applies only to him; but what hits home for me, does hit hard.

Maybe at last, being but a broken man,
I must be satisfied with my heart, although
Winter and summer until old age came
My circus animals were all on show....

Players and painted stage took all my love   
And not those things that they were emblems of.

These masterful images because complete
Grew in pure mind but out of what began?
A mound of refuse, the sweepings of the street,
Old kettles, old bottles, and a broken can,
Old iron, old bones, old rags, that raving slut
Who keeps the till. Now that my ladder's gone,
I must lie down where all the ladders start,
In the foul rag-and-bone shop of the heart.

-- from The Circus Animals' Desertion, W. B. Yeats
copyright renewed by Georgie Yeats in 1961;
when reprinted, done by permission of Michael Yeats

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: Janie
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 09:42 PM

This makes sense to me.

"Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities no doubt crept in; forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense."   Ralph Waldo Emerson

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 07:11 PM

I'd qualify that. We need to learn from our mistakes, and that means recognising them. If "finish your day" includes that, that's good advice. If "forget them as soon as you can" excludes that, it's not. I'd suspect that Emerson would have meant the former.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: keberoxu
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 07:22 PM

Personally my agreement is with the post just before this one, which discriminates more than the post that precedes it. This is a matter of choice. Some people would consider that I am splitting hairs by dwelling upon history which I sincerely wish NOT to repeat; they have a right to their opinion. I do not oppose the Emerson quote, but, like the post that followed the quote, I discriminate.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: Janie
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 07:51 PM

Agree, McGrath and keberoxu. We don't want to actually forget. I always interpreted that quote of Emerson's as suggesting we not torment ourselves with our past mistakes by staying stuck in shame as self-punishment. That clinging to shame is a barrier to constructive change and healing.

Remembering a book I read many years ago by Joan Borysenko, "Guilt is the Teacher, Love is the Lesson."

Also wondering, keberoxu, if you are familiar with any of the books or writings of Stephen Levine?

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: keberoxu
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 02:35 PM

Thanks, Janie, I not only read Stephen Levine but heard him and his wife give a joint presentation years ago. Agree, valuable.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 06:36 PM

On this, and another, thread, there have been references to a childhood in a household where people vocalized aggressively at each other without resolving any differences, a household in which the other extreme was easily swung to as on a pendulum, the extreme of controlled silence.   Grade school was sometimes a further extention of that pendulum swing, although things were possible for me at school that were not possible at home.

One of the biggest stumbling-block-to-stepping-stone transitions of my years in and out of counseling, doing the needed work to make myself whole, has been playing the victim card, and refusing to confront my inner bully. It embarrasses the heck out of me to recall how many decades I have spent manipulating other people, throwing my weight about, and yet if you had got me with my back to the wall, I would have strenuously, stubbornly maintained that I was the victim and never the bully. Everyone else but me could see how I, too, swung like a pendulum, between two extremes.

There are blood relatives of my acquaintance who have gone to their graves fixed on one or the other pole of the above axis, who refused to face up to, as it were, the other side of that coin, within themselves. They did not die easy of mind. I don't want to die the way they did, with all that nauseating dread, guilt, and bitterness in the atmosphere. That's enough for this post.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: Andrez
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 12:27 AM

Hmmmmmm you give us much to think about and reflect on keberoxu especially in the last post. I'll spend more time reflecting on that but I'd like to follow up from the Yeats poem partially cited in an earlier post.

I did a search for the whole poem as I had never seen it before and came across this site that provided an interesting structured structured analysis.

I thought I'd share the link for anyone who might be interested: http://ireland.wlu.edu/landscape/Group5/index.htm

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 04:48 AM

"to accept and permit failure"
Isn't this what we do after every election?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 05:01 AM

keberoxu, I think nearly everyone as an adult plays out their childhood experiences to some extent. If one has been bullied and dominated, one can have bullying traits in one's character. I saw many aggressive and dominating pupils over the years, whose parents were bullying and unkind. It's what one learns when young that affects one's behaviour later.
The great thing is that you have made such efforts to tackle these characteristics in yourself through counselling. You obviously have much insight into your own heart, and that's the essential thing.
Those who 'went to their graves' unchanged and stubbornly resistant to self-knowledge are very sad cases indeed, I agree, but you are not one of them.
I really admire you for your insight and determination to become whole.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: keberoxu
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 04:35 PM

When dining at MacDonald's the other day, I observed a cluster of schoolboys. One of them, away from the schoolyard and supervision, had a dominance persona working, and it was curious to watch: a flamboyant dance, in which the boy wheeled and pirouetted inside the restaurant, arms and legs flying about, and wide glowing eyes. As if he were playing the part of a bully.

In fact it is a lot scarier, from experience and with age, to watch the bullies who have learned to fit in. They don't act out, they don't raise their voices: they don't have to. When they turn up, with their peers about them, you can spot them by how the others defer to them fearfully.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: keberoxu
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:31 PM

Really sticking my neck out, here: to share a recent dream recall.

I found myself getting inpatient care at an institution, and was not sure how I had got in there except that I had really needed attention. But I was recovering nicely, feeling healthier, and interacting with staff as well as with other patients; I could see this was a hospital.

There was an older woman whose condition had progressed much further than mine, and her body was so ill that she could hardly do anything; but she and I could interact because she was aware and could communicate. So we conversed and kept each other company a few times.

It was while talking with nurses and staff that I realized I was in a heart hospital, and I was here because I had had heart trouble and needed treatment. I could not recall what procedures had been done on me, but I was starting to feel like myself again. Very few men in this dream, I had mostly women around me.

The creepiest part was coming face to face with a discarded part of my self. This was deliberately planned so that I could grasp what had been the matter with me. I needed not only to recover bodily, but to have the mental and psychological soundness to look at something that would challenge my sense of self.

The hospital had one room where the discarded part of my self was confined, and with supervision I was admitted briefly to get a look. It was an empty shell, lifeless; its animation had formerly come from my heart, and the connection had been dangerous for my development and growth;
it, and I, had needed to be disengaged and detached, I had to let go of it, which I could not do without intervention.

Now I was looking at this shell, with the blank darkness where the eyes ought to be. It really was like a life-size doll of a young adult. I am no longer young and I don't look like this shell looked. The experience was intense, but thankfully I was not too shocked or unsettled by it. When I could leave that room and leave that shell self behind, I could accept that an intense, difficult experience was now behind me, and that I could move forward with my life.

The last things I recall from the dream, were conversations with staff. I needed no more intervention, they were supervising my recuperation and I would soon be strong enough to be discharged. They told me gently and compassionately that the older woman, the one who was so ill, had died in hospital at last, and that she was no longer suffering. I could not keep her company when she died at the end, but that did not distress me; I had been there for her when I could, and now she and I could go our separate ways. It was a little like the supervised encounter with my shell; the way I saw it, the older woman had let go of a shell self when her body died, and now she still existed but without a body and without the suffering that went with it.

And before you ask, my bodily heart, in waking reality, has always been healthy and normal, and never required treatment; so the dream about heart trouble strongly indicates that the subject is, not the physical body, but the emotions, mind, and psyche.
Thanks for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Nov 16 - 05:50 PM

That dream seems to me to be very significant keberoxu. It probably marks a change in your mental state, and progress into a new psychological life. Do you feel better having experienced this dream? Has it helped you to discard old troubles and to feel 'healed' at all?
If so, I hope the healing continues.
What's good is that you remember it in such detail, and can see the significance with a lot of clarity.
I often find a vivid dream 'tells' me something I need to examine or understand.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 04:53 AM

Dreams are our conscious interpretations of the sleeping brain's machinations. The popular view is that it is the sorting, prioritising and correlating of the day's (week's/moth's/year's?) transactions. The best interpreter of your dreams is yourself.
I predicted my divorce in dreams I had been documenting. Though it took several years after the divorce to put it all together.

Your dreams, keberoxu, sound at first glance to be medical concern over the heart. In my experience this may be a red herring, heart also refers to relationships, centres of (say) towns and maybe deer (=hart) or even "art". Homophones, puns, jokes are all fodder for the interpretation. Don't home-in on a single lonely answer either!

My rationalisation is that they are pointers for triangulation. Put a few disparate items together and they focus on the message.
The brain does store as sounds, sights, motor actions, concepts etc so get yer thinking cap on PAL!
The women in your dream looks harder to reason but, hey! It is your references, your experiences, go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: keberoxu
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 02:33 PM

Thanks everyone!
Triangulation works at more than one level, Mister Red, in this dream recall. There are three particular inpatients, so to speak in the dream: the older woman who dies; the shell-self that is disconnected and lifeless; and the conscious me. All three could be triangulated to form three different aspects of the self that is me.

Odd as this sounds, the above three-of-me device was validating and reassuring to me. In waking reality I have been troubled by a sense of inner conflict, that there was inner tension and division that had me in pieces, quarreling pieces, working against healing and wholeness. It seems to me that the more I strive to be aware of my drives and motives, the more effort I make to hold myself accountable for my behavior, then the farther I appear to be from recovering or from wellness.

It was also reassuring to find myself in a dream environment which evaluated my condition without passing moral judgment on my behavior or on the progress of my problems; to get validation from the hospital staff, as in, yes, you do have a problem, and yes, you are more than your troubles or your symptoms, and we accept you and work to help you as you are. In waking reality, that kind of support seems far away. Thanks for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: keberoxu
Date: 01 Jan 17 - 07:16 PM

Today it was possible for me to observe and examine myself from the inside out, and to notice a change or two.

In summary, much of my inner work in recent months has been to accept how far I fall short of being whole and sound, not to speak of being or doing 'perfection.' I have had to look hard at defenses and drives and blind spots within me. The obstacles inside me have been most resistant to adaptation or change, and the efforts to work toward balance and wholeness have been uncomfortable, even distressing at times, and seemingly little to show for said efforts.

What is different that I notice today, is I seem to have released an inner attachment to some sort of driving ambition to overcome whatever origins or circumstances I come from, and to do this whole climbing/overcoming/struggling/competing drama in order to TRIUMPH, I'm not sure at what.

The thing is that I feel so much healthier without the above. I feel that a great burden has been removed from me, I feel lighter and more at peace. I mean, it is possible to look at what I described above, and conclude, that without an ambition and drive to focus and to do things, I would be depressed and unhealthy. It's just that inside I feel healthier WITHOUT that drive than with it. I can recall, for example, the whole of my adolescence, during which I experienced a sense of surveillance bordering on paranoia, and felt as though rebellion and self-expression were options unavailable to me; so I poured myself into academic progress and achievement, and had little or no life outside of these things. That approach to life got me through the adolescent stage and the years of schooling and study, and in some ways it protected me from making certain kinds of mistakes and blunders. But, as I have posted elsewhere, when I look back on those years now, I perceive mostly anxiety, and I want never to go through that ever again.

Whew. Thanks for listening to all that, everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: to accept and permit failure
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Jan 17 - 04:24 PM

refresh