BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 05:10 AM

If the two ministers have their way, that would expand into the legalised killing of Arabs.

Bollocks.

Israel has chosen to target Britain by accusing an British political party of anitisemitism

More bollocks. Of course they will be critical of antisemitism anywhere, but there is no conspiracy.

You have new even gone so far as to accuse British Jews in the Labour Party of covering up antisemitism for the sake of the Party.

They want to keep it within the Party they love, yes.
It has all been reported to the leadership, and the leadership has chosen to keep the details secret.

If you care to read Mac's OP, you will see that he mentions Israel four times,

Yes, but only to make the point that it is not antisemitic to criticise Israel, which no-one disputes anyway.

It is you on all three threads that has tried to make it about Israel.
You are obsessed!

You were happy to defend Israel to your heart's content when the ball was at your feet

No. I have objected on all three threads to your attempt to make them all just more threads about Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 05:14 AM

" Israel, unlike its neighbours, does not even have capital punishment."

Thousands of innocent civilian families in Gaza and Lebanon would take very little comfort from that, and there seems to be no lower age limit for the killings either. Of course, the country that provides the money for Israel's military power shows no compunction in putting people to death. I'd say that yours is a point definitely not well made.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 05:24 AM

Thousands of innocent families in Gaza must wish that their regime would stop provoking Israel with attempts at the mass murder of Jewish civilians.
Israel has a right and a responsibility to take action against those attempted war crimes.

Likewise in Lebanon TEN YEARS AGO NOW!
Wiki, "The conflict was precipitated by the Zar'it-Shtula incident. On 12 July 2006, Hezbollah fighters fired rockets at Israeli border towns"

This thread is not about Israel and Middle East history Steve.
It is about anti-semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 06:06 AM

"They want to keep it within the Party they love, yes. "
So they make the accusations of Antisemitism then cover it up - a poor view you seem to hold about Jewish people and their honesty - and their intelligence.
It is as I have always said, you have not the slightest interest in the Jewish People - your concern is to defend the extremist right wing Israeli regime who, in implicating the Jewish People as a whole in their crimes and human rights abuses, are as antisemitic as any other Jew haters on this planet.
They have this quite plain by questioning the validity of all Jewish people who disagree with their political behaviour - "Self-hating Jews" - which, by definition, is classic fascism - the state overriding even the cultural ethnicity of the individual
Your denials of Israeli behaviour are all duly noted and will be filed in the same dustbin as the thousands of others you have made.
A piece of advice - never attempt to manipulate the democracy of this forum again when you are not getting your way unless you wish to continue to appear the fanatic that you already are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 06:26 AM

Well, Keith, I merely responded to a point made by you directly about Israel in your post of 03.58am. So what are you burbling on about now? You've already been asked to desist from trying to manipulate the content of the thread to your own ends. Who do you think you are, King Mudcat?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 08:47 AM

Globally, we are witnessing a new, sophisticated, virulent, and even lethal anti-Semitism, reminiscent of the atmospherics of the 1930s, and without parallel or precedent since the end of the Second World War.

This phenomenon overlaps with classical anti-Semitism but is distinguishable from it. While classical anti-Semitism is the discrimination against, denial of, or assault upon the rights of Jews as people to live as equal members of whatever society they inhabit, the new anti-Semitism involves the discrimination against, denial of, or assault upon the right of the Jewish people to live as an equal member of the international community, with the state of Israel as the targeted collective Jew among the nations.

Let me be clear: Israel should not be afforded special treatment, and criticism of Israeli policies or actions does not, in itself, constitute anti-Semitism. What I am referring to is the singling out of Israel for discriminatory treatment, and the denial of Israel's legitimacy as a Jewish state.

Rise of the new anti-Semitism

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 09:14 AM

Smear that funky feces, white boy.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 10:23 AM

Jim,
So they make the accusations of Antisemitism then cover it up

No. They report the antisemitism, and the leadership covers it up.

They have this quite plain by questioning the validity of all Jewish people who disagree with their political behaviour - "Self-hating Jews" -

Except that they don't and never have.
They have a free media which is overwhelmingly Jewish and that criticises them every day.
They have opposition parties, again mostly Jewish, whose job is to criticise them, so your accusation is false.

Steve, this thread really is about "anti-semitism" not Israel.
Read the title.
The other two threads were about the Labour Party, not Israel.
Read the titles.
In my 3.58 post I responded to some absurd anti-Israel propaganda, but I also pointed out that it had no place in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 10:54 AM

"No. They report the antisemitism, and the leadership covers it up."
Then what is stopping them from going public?
You've just said that they do it because they love the Party - presumably more than they love their fellow Jews
""They want to keep it within the Party they love, yes. "
Are you seriously suggesting that they are being prevented by the Party Leadership from speaking out' do you have evidence for this insane theory?
Stupid, stupid, stupid - beyond words.
"Except that they don't and never have."
You've had the evidence Keith - disprove it.
You really are.... words fail me!!
But you are giving my arguments a great deal of support by showing the veracity of Israeli support!!!!
Once again - your denials will be placed in the appropriate receptacle
PLEASE STOP INTERFERING WITH THE FREEDOM OF PEOPLE POSTING TO THIS THREAD - YOU HAVE MADE AROUND A DOZEN POSTINGS TO THIS THREAD MENTIONING ISRAEL, NOW YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO PREVENT OTHERS FROM DOING SO
IS THERE AN ADJUDICATOR IN THE HOUSE?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 12:03 PM

Jim, anti-semitism within Labour has been attested to by numerous members and officials including the entire NEC, Corbyn and Chakrabarti.
What evidence do you have that they are all lying, and why would they?

We know what some of it is, but what they do not choose to tell us I can not tell you!
OK?

"Except that they don't and never have."
You've had the evidence Keith - disprove it.

They are an open democracy and anyone is free to criticise them.
Haaretz journalists do not get locked up like Turkish, Egyptian,....

PLEASE STOP INTERFERING WITH THE FREEDOM OF PEOPLE POSTING TO THIS THREAD -

Errr, how would I do that? I am just a member not a mod.

YOU HAVE MADE AROUND A DOZEN POSTINGS TO THIS THREAD MENTIONING ISRAEL,

Yes I have demolished some of your ludicrous, anti-Israel propaganda.
I have only responded to you.

MENTIONING ISRAEL, NOW YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO PREVENT OTHERS FROM DOING SO

Again, how could I prevent anyone from doing anything.

I just remind them what the thread is about, and what it is not.

It is about anti-semitism.
It is not about Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 12:10 PM

This is where the third phase of anti-Semitism arises, which for want of a better term we might call political-cum-ideological Judeophobia. Race? Oh no, we wouldn't have anything to do with that. Religious prejudice? Oh no, we're far beyond that. This is political and ideological, and it provides a socially and intellectually acceptable modern disguise for sentiments that go back some 2,000 years.

Bernard Lewis

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 12:32 PM

"Jim, anti-semitism within Labour has been attested to by numerous members"y
I'm afraid that, until somebody actually puts a face to that accusation, it really doesn't exist - it is no more than an accusation - not just natural justice but simple logic
Describe it and you have a case - don't and you haven't
You have now described Jewish People in the Labour party as being hypocritical idiots who put P\arty Politics before their own people - any advance on that one?
"What evidence do you have that they are all lying, and why would they?"
The fact that they, nor you, have attempted you have attempted to describe that antisemitism - so far, it amounts to criticism of Israel, which is not antisemitism
Yu are openly lying about Corbyn, the NEC and Chakrabati - they have all claimed there to
Israeli democracy - More denials - same dustbin
be no serious problem.
"We know what some of it is"
Then you tell is what it is.
"Again, how could I prevent anyone from doing anything."
You can't - but you are thick enough to keep tr00ying
"It is about anti-semitism.
It is not about Israel."
See what I mean
Rearrange these words into a well-known phrase or saying -Off Keith Fuck
And take your hate spouting racist/Antisemitic friend with you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 12:46 PM

Interesting article you posted, Bodad.

I just sent this off to my local paper. Note that the person being attacked is not Jewish but is receiving antisemitic attacks. Clearly, you don't have to be Jewish to be attacked by anti-Semites. The political atmosphere here in the US is getting more and more toxic.

To the editor:

It is Yom Kippur and, for the second time during the High Holy Days, I am disappointed in my local rabbi. Last night, I approached him and told him that a local candidate for the House of Representatives, Peter Jacob, had been subjected to one blatantly racist and two anti-Semitic attacks within the past week. His campaign manager had told me that he had contacted the rabbi and asked him to make a statement about this. He says he was refused. The rabbi says that he had not heard of this. His next question surprised me: "Is he Jewish?" Mr. Jacob is Orthodox Christian but the question is irrelevant. These attacks threaten all of us, not just Mr. Jacob. They are a symptom of the increasingly overt intolerance for anyone who is different, such as Jews, Muslims, anyone with dark skin and anyone from Asia. Make no mistake, we are on the list.

As it says in the Yom Kippur service, in every generation enemies rise up to attack us. How can we not speak out against these enemies. Should we sit in silence and hope they will go away? They won't. Should we appeal to their nonexistent better nature? They have none. The totalitarian spirit that gave rise to the Nazis is always among us.

It is present on the left as well as on the right. How many have heard that Black Lives Matter and other progressive groups support BDS because "the Palestinian brothers are suffering under Zionist Israeli occupation." Many progressive groups refuse to allow Jews to participate in worthwhile causes unless they disavow Israel and Zionism. This is especially common on college campuses.

We are being isolated as part of a larger effort. We cannot accept this and must act against the inherent antisemitism of these attacks. Let us all examine our souls and make it clear that an injury or insult to one of us is an injury to all of us.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 12:57 PM

Well said, EBarnacle.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:01 PM

Keith, if you want this thread to not be about Israel, there is something you have to stop doing. You have to stop rattling on about Israel, telling us straight after you've done that that it isn't about Israel. You're trying to have the last word. You've done that three times in the last 24 hours. It's laughable, Keith.

Unfortunately, and I know it makes you feel uncomfortable (because we know from your long track record that you think that criticism of Israel is antisemitic even though you keep telling us that you don't think it), a discussion of antisemitism in the present context is not possible without bringing Israel, or at least the regime and its supporters, into it. The strongest voices condemning criticism of Israeli policy and claiming that we're deliberately confusing anti-Zionism with antisemitism are coming out of Israel. Much of the controversy over what is and what isn't antisemitism is coming either from Israel or elements of the pro-Israel lobby (including, in the UK, Labour Friends of Israel, for example). That is for you in your discomfort to address and it is not for you to keep trying to shut us up about Israel all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:06 PM

Apropos of your post EBarnacle, it is worthy of note that in the US and Canada (and I am pretty sure in Europe as well though I don't have those statistics at hand) hate crimes directed at Jews make up more than half of the total number of hate crimes directed at all other religions combined.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:15 PM

How many have heard that Black Lives Matter and other progressive groups support BDS because "the Palestinian brothers are suffering under Zionist Israeli occupation."

Source of your quote, please. Not that I disagree with the sentiment - I don't - but you should be able to back this with some context.

Many progressive groups refuse to allow Jews to participate in worthwhile causes unless they disavow Israel and Zionism. This is especially common on college campuses.

If this is true it's very disturbing. If you say that it's common, as opposed to its being just the odd sporadic incident, I should like to hear of some examples of where it's happening, what worthwhile causes the Jews are being excluded from and what precisely is being said to the Jewish victims in question.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:16 PM

"Religions?"

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:21 PM

Yes, but only to make the point that it is not antisemitic to criticise Israel, which no-one disputes anyway.

The trouble is, the last part of that sentence isn't actually coorect.

The basis of the confusion is that it is of course true that there are antisemites who do criticise Israel, and whose criticism is founded on hostility to Jews.

There is also a secondary kind of attitude that can be accused of being antisemitic where criticism of Israel potentially leads to hostility towards those who support Israel. If the assumption is made that all Jews everywhere support Israel, that encourages this development. In fact of course that assumption is not true, though it is an assumption encouraged by many Israeli voices. (And even if it were true, the hostility towards those who support Israel would not be justified.)

Inevitably, in a bitter conflict these kind of spreading hatreds arise. It happens in all wars. Palestinians, especially those who have lost family, are likely to feel hatred towards all Israelis, and indeed all Jews. Israelis who have lost family will likely feel hatred towards all Palestinians, and indeed all Arabs, or all Muslims. And it can spread to those outsiders who feel close attachment to those directly involved.

I'd question whether there are many, if any, among Labour supporters who feel any kind of hatred towards Jews as such, or against Muslims as such. There probably are some who feel hostility towards those who are seen as unfairly supportive of Israel, or of Palestine. And that can be seen as anti-semitism, or it's twin, islamophobia.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:27 PM

I cannot give you exact citations on either statement but I believe that if you look in the NY Times about a week ago, key in Brown University and Jewish students you should come up with the second statement. The first has been around for quite a while.
I apologize for the inability.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:30 PM

1. We have been over the establishment of Israel many many times. In 1923 and 1947/8 people who had no right to do so awarded land to people who had long ago abandoned that land and had no right to be there. It is too late now to fix that mistake and a solution that accommodates (even if not necessarily satisfies) both the Palestinians and Israel.

2. It is very silly to argue that Israel does not have the death penalty. Count how many Palestinians Israel has killed and how many Israelis Palestine has killed.

3. As Jackie Walker has correctly said, there is no satisfactory and accepted definition of anti-Semitism - and the extraordinarily expansionist posts above show why. They go even further than the now discredited EUMC definition that I gather was attempted to be thrust down throats at the JLM training session where Jackie Walker was stitched up.

4. The extreme racism directed against Jackie Walker can be found on almost every page discussing her current suspension and her demotion within Momentum - some are simply over-wrought othodoxy (the sort of post that asserts that she cannot be Jewish because her father rather than her mother was Jewish even though she had other ascendant female Jewish ancestors on her mother's side - but some go much further even than the assertion that she cannot be Jewish because she is black and descend to the sort of blakcup and chimpanzee posts that the US right wing present about the Obamas.

5. Buggerit I came here to talk about capos, and I have been seduced by right-wing trolls.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 02:21 PM

Richard, your use of the word "abandoned" does not reflect reality. The Jews living in the Diaspora [Dispersion] were not allowed to live in the then Palestine territory of the Ottoman Empire. The owners of the land were the Ottomans.
Unpalatable as it is to many, the vast majority of the people living there were tenant farmers until the land was sold from under them. Much of the land in Judea and Samaria was purchased the same way but will undoubtedly be surrendered if there is ever an accommodation between the parties.
There will never be an accommodation unless the Palestinians accept the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state, just as all the land they control exists as Muslim states.
Repeat after me: "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem . . ."

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 02:59 PM

Fascinating.

Its apparently OK to repeatedly slander all and sundry with false accusations of anti-semitism, but point out this slander and/or object to it and the post miraculously evaporates into thin air.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 03:04 PM

I cannot give you exact citations on either statement

If you can't substantiate your claims, you shouldn't have posted rumor & innuendo.

Or are you channelling Bubo?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 04:34 PM

Greg, do your own research. Go to Black Lives Matter and cross link it with BDS. Go to the New York Times and follow the lead I suggested above.

I am part of a major educational union and have spent the past two years fighting off "Progressive" academics, some of them Jewish, who believe that Israel and its existence are to blame for all of the problems of the region and who have been attempting to push a BDS resolution through our Solidarity committee.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 04:45 PM

If you can't substantiate your claims, you shouldn't have posted rumor & innuendo.

Also, the BDS movement does not claim that "Israel and its existence are to blame for all of the problems of the region". Nor does Black Lives Matter.

But the government of Israel and its stiff-necked bullshit are absolutely responsible for SOME of the problems in the region.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 04:47 PM

It's very understandable the Ottomans would be cautious about foreigners from Western Europe moving into the Holy Land, Christian or Jewish. There was a history of Crusades, a whole series of wars over Turkish occupied Europe, and the whole process of expanding European Colonial Empires in every part of the world.

The idea that the purchase of land by a foreigner would imply a right to evict a tenant farmer would not have been seen favourably by the Ottoman authorities, as also would have been the case be in many parts of Europe. It underlay the turmoil of the Land League movement in Ireland, culminating in reforms that removed this right.

One thing that needs to be appreciated that there is a historical precedent for the establishment of Israel - the Crusader States established in what is now Israel and Lebanon existed for longer than Israel has, and are now merely historical memorie.
Consciousness of this underly and reinforce the feeling that Israel too is a temporary intrusion into the region.

Israel at present does have the possibility of reaching a two-state solution which would ensure the continued existence of a predominently Jewish state. But if that opportunity is not taken there is a real possibility that the experience of the Crusader States could be repeated.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 05:07 PM

Ah, Kevin, you old anti-semite, you ! ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 06:25 PM

He's not the only one.........unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 06:31 PM

Troll.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 06:47 PM

Troll.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 06:50 PM

Bubo, Lay down the bullshit and smear that funky feces till you die.

with apologies to Rob Parissi

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 07:37 PM

This pathetic lunatic has just called Kevin McGrath antisemitic. Of all the people who post here, Kevin is the one who tries, a damn sight harder than I do, to be fair, balanced and measured. Well that does it. This forum is now in terminal disrepute for allowing this sort of vicious nastiness to prevail under the banner of "free speech." In my view, the owner and moderators of this board are seriously remiss in allowing this person to carry on posting. Free speech my arse. Bobad is shitting on free speech more than anyone I've ever come across here. Shame on you, Mudcat, for tolerating his presence. You moan about usual suspects and the like. Well stop bloody moaning and get this bastard out of here, now.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 07:41 PM

Troll.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 07:59 PM

Bubo, smear that funky feces, white boy.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 08:03 PM

Troll.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 08:17 PM

McGrath, you are definitely correct. The Israelis only have to lose once and there will be a bloodbath. I think about the Horns of Hattin with some regularity and shudder. [For those who don't know about the Horns of Hattin, that was the battle which led to the crusader eviction from the Holy Land.]

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 01:42 AM

Richard Bridge - 12 Oct 16 - 01:30 PM

1. We have been over the establishment of Israel many many times. In 1923 and 1947/8 people who had no right to do so awarded land to people who had long ago abandoned that land and had no right to be there. It is too late now to fix that mistake and a solution that accommodates (even if not necessarily satisfies) both the Palestinians and Israel.

In 1923 and in 1947/48 the people who designated boundaries and proposed boundaries and "awarded land" as you incorrectly put it had as much right to do so as the previous rulers down through the centuries. The same right as those who decreed the borders of all states created in Europe after the First World War. By 1923 European Jews had been purchasing land in the region and settling it for almost 80 years, they were awarded nothing, they bought it and they rightly own it. As to your last sentence and your solution. That was offered in 1947 by the UN and it was rejected by the Arabs of the region. The PA now claims that they are "fighting" for a Two-State solution but they cannot show anybody any map that shows the borders of the Two States. They have not officially and publicly declared the right of the sovereign state of Israel to exist or the right of the people of Israel to exist in peace, free from attack or the threat of attack.

2. It is very silly to argue that Israel does not have the death penalty. Count how many Palestinians Israel has killed and how many Israelis Palestine has killed.

It is not silly at all Bridge, either the death penalty exists in the statute books of the State of Israeli or it does not. That is an easily established fact and we all know that it does not. As to counting things as you suggest:

- Count how many times threats of total annihilation have been made by the Arabs of the region against Israel, count how many times threats of total annihilation have been made by the Israelis against the Arabs of the region.

- Count the number of times the Arabs of the region have carried out unprovoked attacks against the Jews of Palestine and against Israel. Count the number of times the Jews of Palestine and the Israelis have carried out unprovoked attacks against the Arabs of the region.

The number of Israelis killed by Palestinians is only as low as it is because the Israeli Government has spent time, money and resources in protecting its citizens, the low number exists despite every attempted means possible being tried by the Palestinians to increase that number

3. As Jackie Walker has correctly said, there is no satisfactory and accepted definition of anti-Semitism - and the extraordinarily expansionist posts above show why. They go even further than the now discredited EUMC definition that I gather was attempted to be thrust down throats at the JLM training session where Jackie Walker was stitched up.

You forgot to add "In her opinion" Bridge. The reports and recommendations from the Inquiries carried out by Baroness Royall and by newly created Baroness Chakrabarti detailed what constitutes unacceptable racist and anti-Semitic behaviour within the Labour Party - The fact that Walker doesn't accept it is a matter for the Labour Party to sort out - They suspended her membership and demoted her.

4. The extreme racism directed against Jackie Walker can be found on almost every page discussing her current suspension and her demotion within Momentum - some are simply over-wrought othodoxy (the sort of post that asserts that she cannot be Jewish because her father rather than her mother was Jewish even though she had other ascendant female Jewish ancestors on her mother's side - but some go much further even than the assertion that she cannot be Jewish because she is black and descend to the sort of blakcup and chimpanzee posts that the US right wing present about the Obamas.

What "extreme racism"??

5. Buggerit I came here to talk about capos, and I have been seduced by right-wing trolls.

"Seduced by right-wing trolls" - grab it while you can it will probably be the best offer you'll get this century.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 04:21 AM

Jim,
I'm afraid that, until somebody actually puts a face to that accusation, it really doesn't exist

The faces behind the accusation include the entire NEC and numerous prominent Labour members and officials.

You have now described Jewish People in the Labour party as being hypocritical idiots who put P\arty Politics before their own people

I have not. They have reported the antisemitism to the leadership.
Who else would be interested?
The leadership chose to keep it quiet.

The fact that they, nor you, have attempted you have attempted to describe that antisemitism - so far, it amounts to criticism of Israel, which is not antisemitism

None of the stuff quoted has been criticism of Israel.

Yu are openly lying about Corbyn, the NEC and Chakrabati -

Guardian, "Corbyn's aides defended Shah, saying the comments were antisemitic but the MP had "shocked herself," and did not mean what she said.""

Labour List, "The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse."
"The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue"

Ch.4,
CH 4 News Presenter Cathy Newman, "Would you acknowledge now that the Party does have a serious problem with antisemitism."

Chakrabarti, "I acknowledged the serious problems in my report itself."

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 04:22 AM

This thread asks What does "'anti-semitism' mean?"
Perhaps a perfect example is describing all Jewish members of a political party as being both stupid and politically ambitious, first in complaining that their party is full of Antisemites, then in refusing to describe that antisemitism for fear of upsetting the Party.
Seems an extreme case of Antisemistism to me
"proposed boundaries and "awarded land" "
How do you propose boundaries and award land to people who have occupied that land for centuries? Arab occupation of the area dates back to the 8th century.
"Awarding" people their own land sounds very much like the old Imperial benevolence that was on its last legs when the State of Israel was being established.
A then and now reminder.
PALESTINIAN LOSS OF LAND MAP
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 04:32 AM

Steve,
a discussion of antisemitism in the present context is not possible without bringing Israel, or at least the regime and its supporters, into it.

Of course it is!
Anti-semitism is about Jews not Israel, never mind Gaza and Lebanon!!

Much of the controversy over what is and what isn't antisemitism is coming either from Israel

Rubbish! Another wild assertion that you can't substantiate.

or elements of the pro-Israel lobby (including, in the UK, Labour Friends of Israel, for example)

So it is a conspiracy of Jews?

Of course Israel will comment on antisemitism wherever it rears its head, including within our Labour Party, BUT ALL THE ACCUSATIONS OF ANTISEMITISM HAVE COME FROM WITHIN LABOUR, NOT FROM ISRAEL.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 04:38 AM

Jim,
describing all Jewish members of a political party as being both stupid and politically ambitious,

No-one has ever said any such thing.
What a nasty lie and smear!

first in complaining that their party is full of Antisemites,

None of them have ever "complained" of any such thing!
Now you are smearing Labour Jews with your nasty lies.

then in refusing to describe that antisemitism for fear of upsetting the Party.

They have described it to the leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 05:47 AM

"How do you propose boundaries and award land to people who have occupied that land for centuries? Arab occupation of the area dates back to the 8th century."

League of Nations seemed to do very well at the time {Immediately after World War I} when it sought to implement US President Woodrow Wilson's "Fourteen Points":
Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Yugoslavia. Then with the break-up of the Ottoman Empire we got Syria, The Lebanon, Palestine, Transjordan, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia the Trucial States, Oman, Yemen, Aden.

Jews have lived in the area from way before the 8th Century.

Before the First World war the ottoman Empire found itself heavily in debt and the World Zionist Organisation offered to help in return for land.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 06:18 AM

The post of 04.32 am is extremely dishonest. I said "much of", not "most" or "all." Then the poster tried to make nonsense of my statement by chopping it in half. Those who attack criticism of Israeli policy, calling such criticism antisemitic, are indeed mostly either from Israel itself (just look at the links gleefully put up here by bobad and you) or from members or supporters of factions within the pro-Israel lobby. Your suggestion that I'm referring to a conspiracy of Jews is out-and-out antisemitic. I don't know how many times I have to tell you that many members of the pro-Israel lobby groups both here and in the US are not Jews. And you are completely unjustified in insinuating that I'm referring to any sort of conspiracy. I have never done that and I don't accept any such smear against Jewish people. Your obsession with wanting to make victims out of modern Jewish people is thoroughly antisemitic. Shame that you and scumbad can't see the irony in your remarks. It isn't as though we haven't pointed it out to you ad nauseam, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 06:25 AM

"League of Nations seemed to do very well at the time "
So what you acheive over centuries, you tear down by a committee
"Jews have lived in the area from way before the 8th Century."
So?
We are dealing with living people now, not ghosts from the past
Where would New Zealand, Australia and The United States be if we accepted your twisted logic - and in their case, the time span is far less?
Stupid, stupid (not to say inhuman) argument.
I couldn't give a shit for Empires - they were only glorified lad-grabbers.
"None of them have ever "complained" of any such thing!"
You have insisted throughout that Jews are being subjected to a lorra-lorra Antisemitism in the Labour Party
"They have described it to the leadership."
Who says they have?
Why haven't they gone public with it - are they that dismissive of Antiemitism that they put a political Party first?
Virtually all these people have connections with the Israeli propaganda campaign to oppose the Boycott
So you are now saying that they put the Interests of the Labour Party above that of Israel?
For crying out loud Keith, stop digging - this is self-flagellation.
Your suggestion that these people have kept silent because of their loyalty to The Labour Party is as Antisemitic as it gets.
To first report Antisemitism then to deliberately withold the details from the general public would be grossly stupid and to apply that to all Jews in the Labour Party would be deeply Abntisemitic.
As it is, it is pure invention on your part to smear the Labour Party.
You offer not a shred of evidence for any of these claims.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:37 AM

"One law for the Goose another for the Gander" Eh Jim.

Fact - The United Nations officially recognised the State of Israel in May 1948. UN recognition was immediately followed by recognition by the U.S.S.R. and the USA. The USA has a bi-lateral defence agreement with Israel from this date and stands as guarantor of Israeli sovereignty and security.

Fact - The Israeli's were prepared to accept the UN Two-State solution proposed in 1947. The Arabs rejected it and five Arab nations declared war on the fledgling State of Israel in May 1948.

War is not a question of equivalence, War is not a "best out of three" child's game. Declare war, threaten to annihilate an entire population by driving them into the sea and lose that war does not mean a sign flashes "Game Over" and the pieces get re-set for the next attempt - there are consequences associated with waging and losing wars, I would have thought that by now the Arabs of the region and their "leaders" would have twigged onto that fact by now, wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:42 AM

The British left Palestine to the sound of Israeli freedom fighters grenades being tossed into #occupied houses to make way for the new settlers
Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Einstein and hi colleagues described this and other atrocities as "Zionist Fascism" - that was exactly what it was.
All this happened before most of today's generation were around - we are living in today.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:48 AM

These "maps" have been widely circulated by the BDS movement, and they are misleading and dishonest. They appear in the "Zionism Unsettled" study guide. They appear on the websites of the Israel Palestine Mission Network (IPMN) and the Presbyterian Peace Fellowship (PPF). They also appear in the supporting materials for the BDS overtures submitted to the 2014 and upcoming 2016 Presbyterian General Assemblies.

The intent of the maps is clear: to falsely demonstrate an "ethnic cleansing" that did not occur, one perpetrated by the "colonizer" Jews upon "indigenous" Arabs (the incendiary words "colonizer", "indigenous", and "ethnic cleansing" are used repeatedly in BDS literature).

In 1946, the area labeled "Palestine" was the British Mandate of Palestine. All who lived there were Palestinians, Arab Palestinians and Jewish Palestinians. In the 1946 "map" these terms change. The Arab Palestinians are now simply "Palestinians." The word "Palestinian" now means "Arab" and no longer refers to all of the people who live there, and the Jewish Palestinians are simply "Jews". In 1946 Jews paid over 50% of property taxes in Palestine. Almost half of the land was public land, owned by no one and administered by the British. The premise that the land was almost all "Arab land" is misleading. It was shared land and belonged to no particular ethnic group.

Now let's consider the 1967 map in terms of "ethnic cleansing", keeping in mind that before 1948, both Jews and Arabs lived in all of the areas of the British Mandate of Palestine, including the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. It is quite common to hear that the entire West Bank is "Arab Land" and always has been, but numerous Jewish communities existed in what is now the West Bank prior to 1948. These communities were attacked and wiped out by Arab mobs in 1920, 1929 and 1936 and during the war waged by Arab militias and Arab governments in 1947-48. Here are some facts:

Until it was wiped out by Arab riots in 1929 in what is known as the Hebron Massacre, there was a large Jewish community in the center of Hebron

The Jewish population of Jerusalem (which has had a Jewish majority since at least the second half of the 19th century) was dispossessed by the Arab riots of 1929 and 1936 (when Jews fled most of what is now called the Muslim Quarter). In 1948, the Jordanian Legion expelled all of the Jews then living in what is now East Jerusalem and destroyed its holy places.

Sizeable tracts of land owned by Jews in the rural West Bank – including the Gush Etzion settlements, land between Nablus, Jenin and Tulkarm, and in Bethlehem and Hebron – were seized by the Jordanians in 1948.

The 'Jewish settlements' north of Jerusalem, Atarot and Neve Yaakov, were evacuated in 1948, under the declared threat of advancing Arab armies to massacre all the Jews in their path.

Today, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians live on land in and around Jerusalem that is still owned by the Jewish National Fund, including the Kalandia refugee camp and the Deheishe refugee camp south of Bethlehem.


FAKE PALESTINIAN LOSS OF LAND MAPS

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:53 AM

Incredible Shrinking Israel

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:55 AM

Jim,
"None of them have ever "complained" of any such thing!"
You have insisted throughout that Jews are being subjected to a lorra-lorra Antisemitism in the Labour Party

"lora-lorra?"
They have complained about antisemitism, but no-one has ever complained "that their party is full of Antisemites," which is what you falsely claimed Jim.

"They have described it to the leadership."
Who says they have?

Errr, the leadership.

Why haven't they gone public with it

Because it is an internal Labour issue.
How can you deny it is an issue when the entire NEC has said it is.
And so many high profile members, e.g. Sadiq Khan who is hardly a member of the pro-Israel lobby Steve!

So you are now saying that they put the Interests of the Labour Party above that of Israel?

Yes, I am sure they do. What has Israel got to do with it anyway?

You offer not a shred of evidence for any of these claims.

I have quoted the entire NEC and numerous high profile members.
Your only answer would have to be that they are all lying.
Is that your case Jim?

Steve,
The post of 04.32 am is extremely dishonest.

The quotes are all cut and pastes of what you posted Steve.

Then the poster tried to make nonsense of my statement by chopping it in half.

No. I split it in two so I could respond to both parts separately. Less confusing that way.

Those who attack criticism of Israeli policy, calling such criticism antisemitic, are indeed ......

No-one calls all criticism of Israel antisemitic.
How many times will you set up that silly straw man?
It is an invention!

Your suggestion that I'm referring to a conspiracy of Jews is out-and-out antisemitic.

OK. A conspiracy of the "pro-Israel lobby." Is that what you believe?