BS: No poppies for me

Subject: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 03:15 PM

A footballer who plays for the Republic Of Ireland team has been criticised because he won't wear a poppy on his club shirt. The bloke is from Derry, a city with bitter memories of the depredations of British soldiers. Newsreaders and presenters have been vilified, abused even, for refusing to wear a poppy on the telly. We start seeing poppies weeks before Remembrance Day and we see great big ones tastelessly tied to the grilles of cars all the year round. Now Theresa May is having a bash at FIFA for being consistent in enforcing their no-symbols rule. The woman who hasn't a clue what she's going to do about brexit is telling someone else to get their house in order. Jeremy Corbyn is watched like a hawk by the sewer press to see what colour poppy, if any, he'll wear. Poppy-wearing has become politicised, and, as ever, it's the Tory right-wing little-Englander mindset that makes the fiercest noises.

It's been called poppy fascism and it's a good term for it. You WILL wear a poppy, or else. I think it's very sad, and I don't blame the British Legion for it at all. Poppies are being hijacked. I won't wear a poppy because I hate the militarisation of remembrance ceremonies and the overbearing presence of royalty at them. They of all people have plenty to be thankful for to those who sacrificed their lives, that's for sure, but it sometimes looks like a contest to see which prince or duke can drip with the most medals.

I'll put a quid in the poppy-seller's tin and I won't harangue him, but my poppy will go straight in the bin.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 04:13 PM

say what you will about large poppies on the noses of cars but, and it is a big but.......

when the police can no longer cope with rioters in Croydon, who ya gonna call? Other antagonists have been available. Still are.

it is such a small thing to say "lest we forget", an ultimate call for peace.

they wus saying it before Lennon got his publicity wagon rolling.

lest we forget - because some people have. Yoof hasn't experienced it, doesn't have the lexicon to go with the concept.

You'll be asking them to put their bodies on the line when it matters. Get you thanks in NOW!

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 04:21 PM

The Royal British legion has six care homes and runs no end of projects for disabled ex-servicemen and women and their families, from psychiatric help, counselling, financial support, rehabilitation for amputees and funding for Remembrance visits by veterans to overseas military cemeteries.
I'm perfectly happy to contribute to this work by buying a poppy, and in fact we both obtained one today in Tesco.
If someone doesn't want to wear a poppy, then they needn't do so. It's a free country (thanks to the brave folk who fought against our enemies during two World Wars)

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 04:40 PM

I had always considered myself pacifist but still recognise the great sacrifice others have made, and of course the suffering incurred by non combatants. Consequently I usually buy a poppy in recognition of this, the help of ex servicemen , and the fact that there are no easy answers.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 04:56 PM

I wear a poppy all year round - I have the small metal ones (buttons, I think they call them). I do it in remembrance of those called to make sacrifices that I've never been called to make, and in grateful thanks that their sacrifices have given me the freedom to do things that I might not otherwise have had.

If others choose not to wear a poppy, that's fine - it's one of the freedoms I mentioned above. But they'd better not get shitty with me because I do choose to wear one.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 05:41 PM

I think the UK suffers from a false patriotism.


I do believe that there have been people giving their life for our country. I further believe that even if I don't always agree with the cause (Iraq would be one big one for me) there are people who served with good faith and came out damaged who need support.

What troubles me is what I perceive as a form of jingoism and a nation looking inwards on itself. I suppose it depends on where one stands but it is another reflection of the Brexit mentality to me.

It's not about giving, sure even I would put a quid in a poppy jar. It's about where I think things are heading.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: bobad
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 05:54 PM

What Backwoodsman said.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Raedwulf
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 06:08 PM

I put a fiver in the poppy tin today at Tesco's (it's usually whatever random change (however much), but I wasn't carrying any). It was the most astonishingly crisp, new (and I do mean new - the new version of the fiver; first one I've seen) note I've had in recent times. There were two ladies manning (yes, manning; don't get me started on the misuse of English! :p ) the table. Both were elderly; the one standing could certainly have passed for 65, the one sitting must have been 85 at least. "What can we sell you, then", said the sitting one. It wasn't quite a "When shall we three meet again" cackle, bless her, but it wasn't far off. "Nothing", I said, "I don't do display. I always give; I just don't 'do' display". Both laughed delightedly.

Thousands upon thousands of Irish volunteered in WWI, thousands died. At that time, Ireland was wholly under British rule and, it can be argued, until the British government totally buggered up their handling of the Easter Uprising, most Irish probably didn't really care who ruled. Whatever they thought, so many volunteered. A small minority, certainly, avowedly didn't. They actively allied themselves with Imperial Germany on the grounds that that might free them. And many, many Irish, at the time, regarded them as traitors. Doing it in peace was one thing, doing it in time of war...

And no, I'm not making any judgements. I'm just saying. WWII? I really don't know. I know that Eire's position was one of neutrality. Did that stop their nationals volunteering? No, it did not. My thanks to them - they still volunteered in their droves. One estimate is that around 250,000; over 8% of the population; left Eire to work or to serve. For whatever reasons.

If you don't want to wear a poppy, don't wear it. If you do, do. Don't judge because they will or they won't, or because you will or you won't. Different people have different things to remember, and different ways of remembering. I never display, Steve. I never take a poppy. I always give. And I always remember. Not on Remembrance Sunday. I ignore Remembrance Sunday. At the 11th Hour on the 11th Day of the 11th Month.

That is the time for Remembering. Always.

I wouldn't dream of "my poppy [going] straight in the bin". Whatever your quibbles, there you go too far, I think. Remember & honour. Don't quibble.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 06:21 PM

"They shall grow not old,
As we that are left grow old.
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun, and in the morning,
We will remember them."

I hope that sometime I can write something even a fraction as memorable and evocative.

I put my donation in the tin (plastic?) every year, and take a new poppy if I don't already have one from a previous year.
I'm an inveterate hat wearer, either to keep the sun off, or (more usually)the rain. 50 weeks of the year my hat sports a Welsh daffodil (supporting Wales & Marie Curie cancer care) the other two weeks it sports a poppy.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 06:58 PM

I visit the spot several times a year, on tbe cliffs near Pentire Head in north Cornwall, where those words were composed. There's a little plaque with those words overlooking one of the finest views you could wish to see.

Herewith lies my problem:

"If others choose not to wear a poppy, that's fine - it's one of the freedoms I mentioned above. But they'd better not get shitty with me because I do choose to wear one."

No-one is going to "get shitty" with you for wearing your poppy. I have no idea why you felt you had to express that so aggressively. The whole issue is with just a few poppy-wearers (as well as the gutter press and Theresa May) "getting shitty" with people who exercise the choice you say we have, or, in FIFA's case, being consistent in keeping a long-standing rule. It seems to me that the choice that people in the public eye have got to not to wear a poppy is coming with an awful lot of hawkish flak. Poppy fascism. I gave you examples, and there are plenty more. No-one that I know of ever craps on people who wear poppies.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 07:11 PM

Because they'd better not get shitty with me because I do choose to wear one.

There's a great deal of shittiness around the Internet on the topic of wearing, or not wearing, a poppy. I've dealt with one such on another forum just this evening, who chose to berate me for my choice to wear a poppy. I don't heap shit on people who don't wear a poppy, and I don't take shit from them either.

Alles klaar?

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: ranger1
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 08:45 PM

As an American, I'm generally in the minority because I DO wear a poppy on Veteran's Day, as it's called on this side of the Atlantic. I wear it to honor family members who served, and also to educate those who don't know what it symbolizes. And there are many of them over here. I had to explain to my younger co-workers last year that Veteran's Day is also Armistice Day and that it always falls on the 11th. Then I had to explain what Armistice Day was and why the date and time are significant. I'm not that old, I'm 47, and I had a hard time dealing with the fact that something I think should have been common knowledge wasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: ranger1
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 08:47 PM

But Steve, I get where you're coming from. I feel the same way about all the flag-waving over here at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 09:47 PM

Dunno whether a post of mine got lost or whether it got shot down, just before yours, ranger. Basically, I advised Backwoodsman to avoid the forum that he gets flak from and keep his blood pressure down. Anyone who gets shit BECAUSE they wear a poppy is a rarity, and his aggression on that front is misplaced. Talk about making an issue where there isn't one. The problem is with people abusing non-poppy wearers, not the other way round. It's been called poppy fascism and it's a damn shame. Even some WWII veterans have stopped wearing poppies because of it. Anyway, cheers, ranger. I think there's an implicit link between flag-waving and poppy politicisation and I think it's very disappointing.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 02:57 AM

The problem is with people abusing non-poppy wearers, not the other way round. It's been called poppy fascism and it's a damn shame."

No, that's the biased POV of a non-poppy wearer. The problem is with people of either persuasion abusing those who don't share their practice.

As I said at the beginning, it's personal choice - I choose to wear the poppy but I don't criticise non-wearers for not doing so, they have the right. By the same token I will not, and do not, accept criticism from those to don't wear poppies. This incident was by no means the first time I've been accused of 'celebrating' war simply because I choose to wear an emblem of remembrance.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 04:03 AM

The whole idea of professional footballers embracing the poppy emblem to improve their tarnished profile is a shame.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 04:23 AM

Well, scratching my head, all I can say is that it's a very lop-sided problem.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 04:32 AM

Then we must agree to disagree and let it go.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 04:57 AM

I'll take that as a suggestion.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 06:09 AM


What troubles me is what I perceive as a form of jingoism and a nation looking inwards on itself.

confirmation bias card played there IMNSHO.

Trying (OK as best I can) to be objective and see both viewpoints I still re-iterate:

"lest we forget".
War is brutal. Peace is the reason we should remember. And how ya gonna get a settled public who have no concept of the privations of being occupied, to realise? A poppy is a small price to pay for peace. Not a cure, but give me your sure fire method to ensure peace for our time.

Geeze - just because Trump and Farrage and Assad et al are jingoistic, doesn't mean the humble poppy is. Christ - get real people. Lambaste the leaders that seek to misuse it!

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 06:30 AM

I don't think anyone should be bullied into wearing a poppy. Some people don't seem to realise this choice is the sort of freedom we were supposed to be fighting for. However, there is an alternative to the red poppy if it offends you: the white Peace poppy sold by the Peace Pledge Union.

RtS
(who as a wishywashy liberal, sorta Quaker who lost uncles in both World Wars will be wearing red to remember them and white to wish nobody else should have to die.)

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 07:15 AM

Amen to that. The footballer and the newsreaders do have the freedom to not wear the poppy. They and everyone else now need freedom from the pressure to wear it. It isn't the poppy or the British Legion that's to blame. The poppy fascism is fuelled mainly by the right-wing press.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 07:15 AM

To those who think poppies should be banned. I believe that when your parents die or your children... photographs of them should be banned.... or is that totally different??~?~?

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 07:18 AM

How FIFA who are mainly from European countries other than GB and all of whom we saved from the Nazis in the second world war, have the gall to say our footballers can't wear a poppy in rememberance of the people who sacrificed their lives to save them beggars belief.

We should salute FIFA with another good old British symbol, the two finger salute.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 07:46 AM

FIFA regard the poppy as a political statement. Political statements are not allowed to be displayed in international matches. I'm afraid that it's the poppy fascists who have turned the poor old poppy into a political statement and I agree with FIFA. I don't generally agree with FIFA about anything much, I hasten to add.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 08:50 AM

Fifa was OK for the Irish team to wear a shirt commemorating the 1916 rising.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 10:15 AM

Poppies are only part of the problem, which is a strategy of social control by the right: sacralising the military. Any old ex-thug gets to be a "hero" if they once wore a British Army uniform, and public spaces get taken over by stone and concrete oblongs that we are supposed to treat as temples because they have a list of names on them. There was a new piece of expensive military advertising put up in Glasgow only last week.

The issue is not remembering past wars, it's about remembering what a bunch of murderous arseholes started, profited by, and fought them. Blocks of stone in the street and red paper pasties are about forgetting that, not remembering it. Where are the memorials in Britain to the torture victims of Abu Ghraib? The sailors of the Belgrano? The thousands of Sudanese machinegunned by the British heroes under command at Omdurman? - there could be a separate memorial to mark how much blood Winston Churchill had on his hands for that, but it isn't going to happen, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 10:28 AM

A red poppy with a white feather pinned to it in remembrance of the fallen soldiers & civilian victims of wars,
whilst also commemorating the harsh shameful persecution of conscientious objectors to volunteering or being coerced by conscription...?????

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 11:33 AM

We need to remember the perpetrators more than the victims.

Is there some poppy variant that says "remember Blair, Thatcher, Churchill - greedy psychopathic shitbags the lot of them" or "remember the British torturers who Theresa May won't allow to be put on trial"? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 12:03 PM

A white poppy spattered with droplets of blood red...

optional £ and $ shaped green leaves...????? 🤔

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 01:16 PM

"The whole idea of professional footballers embracing the poppy emblem to improve their tarnished profile is a shame." Ake, I criticise you from time to time for talking tripe (unlike some 'catters, I know you mean well, even though you frequently express it badly), but just this once, I'm going to call you names. As well as using a word I don't think you'll like. Possibly several times.

Stop being such an almighty fucking idiot. Who are you to say what professional footballers embrace? Who the fuck are you to pronounce on why they are wearing a poppy? Has it occurred to you that they might actually WANT to wear it? Be PROUD to wear it? Let's face it, Ake, footballers are regarded as being as thick as two short planks anyway. That makes them prime material to believe in small-minded jingoistic shit (if that's how anyone wants to regard poppy wearing). And what "tarnished image" are you talking about? In your eyes? You're fucking blind, pal!

I don't believe that the FA, the SFA, and WFA, are asking for this so that they can "force" players to wear a poppy. Not least because they are only asking for the same compromise that happened 5 years ago - armbands. Not poppies on the shirt, armbands. I don't believe that any of the footballers will be wearing it for any reason OTHER THAN that they wish to pay their respects (and also, perhaps, to be seen to do so).

I do think it is thoroughly undecent of you (and out of keeping with your general good nature) to suggest such a thing. Shame on you, Ake. Ya feckin eejit! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 01:33 PM

I couldn't give a monkeys about football...

But at a time when the game is making positive efforts to encourage inclusivity & tolerance,
then at the very least this row between a bunch of too rich ball kickers and their law givers
really should spotlight the of story of Walter Tull....?????? 🙄

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/feb/03/walter-tull-black-football-pioneer-military-cross-tottenham

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 01:52 PM

Who the fuck are you to pronounce on why they are wearing a poppy? Has it occurred to you that they might actually WANT to wear it? Be PROUD to wear it?

There are probably a lot of American athletes who would be proud to wear the Confederate flag. Would that make it okay?

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 02:06 PM

I'd say "Apples and Oranges", false reasoning, a complete red-herring.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 02:16 PM

And I'd agree, Back. Thank you. I couldn't be bothered to reply to your "Condescending bullshit" comment, Jack. And here's a perfect example of why...

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 02:43 PM

I couldn't be bothered to reply to your "Condescending bullshit" comment, Jack.

You just did reply - but the comment doesn't exist except in your head. I didn't use those words in this thread and neither did anybody else.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 03:02 PM

No, Jack, I didn't reply to the remark that isn't here. It's in the "Whither Humanity" thread; one of the very few I've ever started. It was a bloody stupid response that showed little understanding of what you were answering and no reason why anyone should want to try. Much like your utterly irrelevant "Confederate Flag" comment above.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 03:41 PM

Let's just agree that all footballers are utterly thick, overpaid ball-kickers except for those who play for Liverpool FC, who are supremely intelligent, gifted and balletic athletes who grace any turf they happen to alight on.

There. A perfectly agreeable compromise, with which I know you'll all concur.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 03:46 PM

Shaw, you remain a Scouse git. A Manky Scouse git apparently, but a Scouse git, nevertheless! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 03:54 PM

..so did you hear about the thick footballer who got taken to court by the RSPCA for pinning a puppy to his coat pocket...????? 😈

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 04:31 PM

Radcliffe is eight miles north of Manchester and my parents still live just half a mile from t'Gigg. Not Manky. I hardly know the place. We still share that visceral hatred, along with tens of thousands of other families, of M*n U. The only way out all this was a dash along the East Lancs Road. I can't expect you to comprehend.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 04:31 PM

Raedwulf, you can call me anything you like and I'll smile 'cos I think I know you're one of the good guys.

I used to play football, and I can tell you that on the park you don't think of the fuckin' Somme.....where my grandfather fought.

You think about winning a stupid game by fair means or foul...sorry nowadays it's chiefly foul, prancing prim donna's diving like salmon pulling jerseys trying to turn deception into an art and being massively overpaid into the bargain.

Keep the money grabbing egomaniacs away from anything which resembles emotion, for surely, they'll shit all over it.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 04:39 PM

Anyway it's "indecent"....who are you callin' a eejit? :0)

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 04:41 PM

You been runnin'around wiv that Steve Shaw???

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 05:36 PM

It was undecent for a reason, Ake. Mostly because undecent isn't indecent, to be truthful! ;-) There are several prolific posters on this forum who would not / do not believe you are capable of being fair-minded. There are several who consider you a bigot. You know this.

You WERE being unfair. You were sticking a great big label on all professional footballers. You have no idea what they believe or why they believe it. Surprising as it may seem, it is possible for people who are privileged to give a shit (whether 'privilege' comes from achievement, money, prestige, family & friends, or whatever). On those grounds alone... Yes. You're an eejit. Of several varieties. Why should anyone shit on anything? Because they're fuckwits? Oh, yes. Now, when was being a fuckwit ever restricted to only the rich & powerful, eh? ;-)

And Steve - "8 miles north of..." Yer talking to a Londoner, mate. 8 Miles is about, oh, Ta'ar 'Amlets. Yer feckin central! (Yes, I exaggerate a bit. Where would be the fun if I didn't? :p ) I do realise that sheep can distinguish one sheep from another sheep. At least, I presume they can. But nevertheless, if it's got four legs, a wooly coat and that sort of face....

It doesn't exactly help that yer fleece remains red! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 05:40 PM

Oh awright! ah'm an eejit.....this time, bit no' ivry time eh?

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 05:50 PM

This chap puts it far better that I can

Afternoon in August

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 06:40 PM

Don't give me your Tower Hamlets bollix. I worked there for seven years, lived there in Robin Hood Gardens, met the missus there who was a teacher in Ben Jonson in Stepney, got married there (cheers, Father Burke), has a rollicking vicious argument with Bishop Victor, Bishop of Stepney there, was an NUT hard leftie there...best years of my life, they were. I saw my mate Blair Peach murdered while I lived there. That wasn't too great, but the one thing that Blair showed me was that racism is the biggest evil on this planet and that decent people never, ever let a racist incident, remark, post or article go without attacking it back. I even went to a West Ham match once. On the way to Upton Park some twat in our tube carriage pulled the cord and we were swamped by less than friendly cops. Bloody miracle that we got to see the game at all. Southern gits.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 07:19 PM

Small world.. my mrs worked in schools in Tower Hamlets and Forest Gate...
.. and I had a shite telephone marketing job just around the corner from the West Ham ground...

Last job I ever wore a suit and tie to work... the boss effed off suddenly and never paid us..

One quiet evening after work my mate got bottled by a schizophrenic in a big pub by the stadium....

That was a good quarter century ago...

A black African girl on our marketing team convinced herself I was a Jew
and thereafter refused to socialise with me...

Another member of the team thought I was Canadian...?????

East London ..eh..???? 😕

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 08:11 PM

Yebbut you could also meet the salt of the earth. Stood on the picket line with the fire brigade blokes at Poplar, the hospital workers at St Andrews and the school caretakers and cleaners in the schools down Commercial Road at six in the morning, and they taught me everything I know about how to be a real human being. The buggers all nicked my fags, of course...