BS: Six Day War 50 Years On

Subject: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 03:29 PM

On this day 50 years ago the Israeli Army secured the Old City of Jerusalem, which had been in Jordanian hands since the War of Independence in May 1948.

In the 1970s I was a high school student lucky enough to make it on a student trip abroad. We were in Rome, getting a tour of some, well, ruins. Among them was the Arch of Titus, celebrating the Roman conquest of the remains of old Israel. Among the engravings on its side is a menorah (6 armed candelabra) being carried among the war booty. I don't know where I picked up the apocryphal story that no Jew would walk under the Titus Arch. It was a moot point when I was there as those ruins in particular well cordoned off.
Anyhow, our tour guide was an excellent Italian lady who at one point on the march mentioned that Rome on its own contained 400 churches. "How many synagogues?" I asked. With no pause whatsoever she answered "Four". Now I'm from Boston, which already had a wide ratio of churches to synagogues, but a 100 to 1 is impressive. I asked for the location of the biggest, and during my free time in the city I made it over. Noticed the police (or soldiers) with the submachine guns guarding it, we were already in the age of terrorism. It was a large building, I wasn't able to tell if it was in use for its original purpose or even if there was enough of a population left who knew what to use it for. But it was quiet and cool and had a gift shop. The woman behind the counter was pleased to chat with an American who knew no Italiano, and at one point I repeated to her my factoid that no Jew would walk under the Arch of Titus. With no pause whatsoever she said: "We can walk under it now. We have Jerusalem back!"

Fifty years ago today. Mazel Tov!

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 03:43 PM

Fifty years on from most wars it's a matter of getting together with people on the other sides, and being sad for the past mistakes that brought about the war, and being happy things have moved on so it,s hard to imagine how it could have happened.

Pray that when it's the 100th anniversary that's how it will be with this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: michaelr
Date: 07 Jun 17 - 06:58 PM

I just read that Israel had plans to detonate an atomic bomb on a Sinai mountaintop as a deterrent to its enemies. The war was over so quickly they didn't have time to put the device in place.

Can you imagine what the Near East would be like now if they had done that?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 03:52 AM

michaelr, you must be very gullible to believe shit like that!
Is there anything you would not believe Israel capable of?

The war was over so quickly they didn't have time to put the device in place.

They held the Sinai for many years after that war ended, so your claim is absurd bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 06:09 AM

"michaelr, you must be very gullible to believe shit like that!"
Lorra lorra fresh and forgotten information for the deniers to deny
And it's started already
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 07:39 AM

Israel held Sinai for years after the 1967 war.
The Sinai Peninsula was returned to Egypt in stages beginning in 1979 as part of the Israel–Egypt Peace Treaty.
Deny that Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 09:34 AM

Ah yes, the great Sadat sellout to the West. A little later, a terrorist was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. Dumped on the Palestinians too. Long shadows, eh? Did Egypt a lot of good too, didn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 10:58 AM

"Did Egypt a lot of good too, didn't it?"

Well actually Shaw, yes it did - Egypt no longer had to finance Nasser's pan-Arabic dreams and bankroll wars aimed at the destruction of Israel and the annihilation of the Jewish populace.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 12:33 PM

"Deny that Jim?"
As usual, just the convenient bits Keith
I was referring to the forcing of prisoners to carry out executions and bury other captured prisoners, as evidenced in statements by Israeli soldiers' statements (among other things)
Plenty more in the press over the last few days
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-nuclear-bomb-six-day-war-sinai-egypt-use-weapon-syria-jordan-iraq-a7774921.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 03:24 PM

it was a war. stuff happens.
as the English soldiers they killed in the 40's could tell you. Israel plays hardball. always does . always did.

the Israel victory came as a surprise to everyone. Particularly to the surrounding states , who had been threatening to kick Israel into the sea for years.

I get anti-Israel e-mails with every post nowadays. Some are sent to me by good friends. Recently I heard Leon Rosselson call Israel 'a criminal state' from the stage.

I can't help but wonder if these vociferous critics ever take into account the many years and the two invasions made with the intention of destroying Israel.

I cannot see why they begrudge the jews one country. There are many muslim nations - none of which seem well governed or ruled humanely. if it were a case of enlightenment versus darkness, i could understand why the liberal left hate Israel and spend so much time cataloguing their shortcomings.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 03:27 PM

You don't have to believe me, Keith. Will you believe The Times of Israel?

"The report was based on an interview conducted by leading Israeli nuclear scholar Avner Cohen with retired IDF brigadier general Itzhak Yaakov, who reportedly oversaw the plan."

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jun 17 - 09:26 PM

Being interested in, obviously, the Mideast, and also the history of nuclear arms, I saw the article in the New York Times addressing the topic of a newly released tale of Plan Samson, which was to arrange for the detonation of a nuclear device as a demonstration should the Arab countries around Israel: Egypt, Jordan, Syria, succeed in their invasion plans.
Not all fantastic stories are false. This one may be true, but some observations:

It is not settled history. This has just come out, and Israel is unlikely to provide technical information to flesh this story out.
1967 seems to be way early for Israel to have working nukes. In particular, the wording is "device" which means it was not weaponized (can't be carried in an airplane, for instance).
Israel has never detonated a muclear weapon. So in this story they would have have had no way to know it would work. Would you leave nuclear fixin's out in the open if you didn't know they'd work and the enemy was winning?

Remember that only six years later Israel was successfully invaded by Egypt (going into Israeli occupied Sinai) and there were no nukes evident (except for Tom Clancy's novel: "Sum of All Fears" which made the very point of a nuke falling into hostile hands).

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 02:45 PM

"except for Tom Clancy's novel: "
From The Times of Israel - maybe Tom Clancy works for that paper
Jim Carroll

THE LAST SECRET OF THE 1967 WAR'
Report says Israel planned atomic detonation in Sinai if Six Day War went wrong
New York Times, quoting newly released interview, says the display of nuclear strength was a 'doomsday' scenario not needed after IDF victory
BY TIMES OF ISRAEL STAFF June 3, 2017, 11:31 pm 21
One the eve of the Six Day War, with the country surrounded by enemies and unsure of its future, Israel developed a "doomsday" plan to detonate an atomic bomb in Egypt's Sinai Peninsula as a warning to the Arabs, The New York Times reported Saturday.
The report was based on an interview conducted by leading Israeli nuclear scholar Avner Cohen with retired IDF brigadier general Itzhak Yaakov, who reportedly oversaw the plan.
"It's the last secret of the 1967 war," Cohen told the paper.
The full interview is set to be published Monday, as the region marks the 50th anniversary of the war in which Israel defeated the combined Arab armies in just six days.
According to Yaakov, who oversaw weapons development for the Israel military and gave details of the plan to Cohen in 1999 and 2000 interviews, Israel was deeply fearful ahead of the war.
"Look, it was so natural," Yaakov said, according to the Times, which quoted a transcription of a taped interview. "You've got an enemy, and he says he's going to throw you to the sea. You believe him."
"How can you stop him?" Yaakov asked. "You scare him. If you've got something you can scare him with, you scare him."
Yaakov, who died in 2013 at age 87, detailed in the interview with Cohen how Israel developed a plan code-named "Shimshon," or Samson, to have helicopters and commandos fly an atomic device to a mountain top site about 12 miles from an Egyptian military complex at Abu Ageila.
"The plan, if activated by order of the prime minister and military chief of staff, was to send a small paratrooper force to divert the Egyptian Army in the desert area so that a team could lay preparations for the atomic blast," the report said.
"Two large helicopters were to land, deliver the nuclear device and then create a command post in a mountain creek or canyon. If the order came to detonate, the blinding flash and mushroom cloud would have been seen throughout the Sinai and Negev deserts, and perhaps as far away as Cairo."
Israel has never acknowledged having nuclear weapons, maintaining a policy of so-called nuclear ambiguity, neither publicly confirming nor denying the existence of an atomic arsenal. However, several top US officials have seemed to confirm it, most recently former secretary of state Colin Powell who wrote in a leaked private email that he believed Israel has some 200 nuclear weapons.
The Israeli Embassy in Washington declined to comment on the report or on Yaakov's role, The New York Times said.
If Israel had detonated a device, it would have been the first use of a nuclear weapon in a war situation since the US dropped the two bombs on Japan to end World War II.
On Monday, the Nuclear Proliferation International History Project of the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in Washington — where Cohen is a fellow — is releasing on a special website a series of documents related to the Israeli atomic plan.
In the transcripts, Yaakov describes a helicopter flight he made to the site with Israel Dostrovsky, the first director-general of the Israel Atomic Energy Commission, that had to be aborted after the Egyptians scrambled fighter jets.

If Israel had detonated a device, it would have been the first use of a nuclear weapon in a war situation since the US dropped the two bombs on Japan to end World War II.
On Monday, the Nuclear Proliferation International History Project of the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in Washington — where Cohen is a fellow — is releasing on a special website a series of documents related to the Israeli atomic plan.
In the transcripts, Yaakov describes a helicopter flight he made to the site with Israel Dostrovsky, the first director-general of the Israel Atomic Energy Commission, that had to be aborted after the Egyptians scrambled fighter jets.
"We got very close," Yaakov reportedly said. "We saw the mountain, and we saw that there is a place to hide there, in some canyon."
As it turned out, Israel's victory was swift and decisive and there was no need for any doomsday plan, but Yaakov still believed Israel should have gone ahead with it and openly declared its nuclear prowess.
"I still think to this day that we should have done it," he told Cohen, who is the author of "Israel and the Bomb" and "The Worst-Kept Secret."
In 2001, some 2 years after his conversations with Cohen, Yaakov was arrested in Israel and charged with passing secret information with intent to harm state security. The charges related to memoirs he wrote, the Haaretz daily reported in its obituary of Yaakov in 2013.
Yaakov was acquitted of the main charge but found guilty of the unauthorized handing over of secret information, Haaretz said, noting that he received a two-year suspended sentence.
The obituary hinted at the exploits in the Sinai Desert, saying that "Yaakov was one of Israel's leading officers in the field of weapons development during the build-up to the Six Day War and afterwards. During the war he was appointed to command a complex and unprecedented operation in the Sinai Peninsula, where he was to command both IAF pilots and a special ops unit. The IDF's rapid success in defeating the Egyptian army made the operation redundant and it was cancelled."
According to Cohen, he promised Yaakov he would find the right time to publish the information and now, on the 50th anniversary, he believed the time was ripe.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 03:22 PM

Thanks, Jim. That is the NYT article to which I was referring.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 03:40 PM

Good job it didn't 'go wrong'.
Though I suppose that depends on which side you're on.

If it had gone wrong - Israel would n't be anywhere near Sinai. They would have been in the Mediterranean. That remains the ambition of their opponents, I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: michaelr
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 07:08 PM

Al, to your earlier post: to be critical of Israel's policies is not to "begrudge the Jews one country". The issue was and remains Israel's systematic maltreatment of the Palestinian population. It is apartheid, pure and simple, and it must stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 07:46 PM

" It is apartheid, pure and simple, and it must stop."
I's gone beyond that Mike - it has reached the level of ethnic cleansing now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 09:06 PM

To call Israel an apartheid state is an expression of ignorance, anti-Semitism, and malice.

Israel is by far the most racially mixed and tolerant nation in the entire Muslim Middle East. Arabs, who are about 20% of Israel's population, enjoy, without any exception, the same rights and opportunities in all fields as their Jewish fellow citizens. The total equality of all Israelis is assured in Israel's founding document. All non-Jews (which means primarily Muslim Arabs) have full voting rights. At present, seventeen Arabs sit in Israel's Knesset (parliament). Arabs are represented in Israel's diplomatic service all over the world. Arab students may and do study in all Israeli universities. All children in Israel are entitled to subsidized education until graduation, without any restrictions based on color or religions. In short, Muslim Arabs and other non-Jews are allowed everything that Jews are allowed, everything that non-Whites were not allowed in apartheid South Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: michaelr
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 01:01 AM

I note that bobad's post does not contain the word "Palestinian".

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 02:29 AM

"I note that bobad's post does not contain the word "Palestinian"."
That's because he believes they don't exist or have no claim to land they have occupied for millenia
The also believes that to criticise Israel is "antisemitic, (which is Israel's main defence of its atrocities which is antisemitic by definition.
All revised definitions of the term condemn associating the acts of Israel with the Jewish people, yet Bobad and his ilk believe themselves o be above all rules and definitions.
The 'neuclear option' during the six-day war was confirmed in an article in yesterday's Irish Times
It is often forgotten that Israeli offered to assist Apartheid South Africa TO GO NUCLEAR.
Faced with the possibility of the downfall of the regime there, the South Africans turned the offer down as they didn't want such weapons "falling into the hands of the 'blecks'"
Birds of a feather
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 05:14 AM

The Israeli Arabs Bobad refers to are by definition "Palestinians."

Persecuted people have declining populations and victims of ethnic cleansing migrate.
That does not apply to Israeli Arabs, or West Bank Arabs, except the Christians that used to be part of the West Bank population but have been persecuted out.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:14 AM

"Arabs, who are about 20% of Israel's population, enjoy, without any exception, the same rights and opportunities in all fields as their Jewish fellow citizens"

You forgot to mention the fact that unemployment among Israeli Arabs is far higher than among Jews, that Arabs are far more likely to be stopped at checkpoints for hours or even days, that school buses won't go through Arab areas forcing the kids to walk miles to the edges of the towns, that school achievement is far lower, that housing is much poorer, that the average pay of Arabs is far lower than that of Jews, that the wall has robbed many Arab families of large portions of their farms. And so on. We've been here before.

So, as Arabs don't seem to be doing anywhere near as well as Jews in Israel, there can only be one of two explanations:

(a) Israeli Arabs are feckless, lazy people who bring all their problems on themselves (the exact argument used to defend white domination in Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa).

Or (b) Arabs in Israel are discriminated against.

Which is it, boobs?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 12:41 PM

I was in a hurry. I could have mentioned much lower life expectancy, much higher infant mortality, the fact that over a half of Arab families in Israel are defined as living in poverty, then there's the workplace discrimination based on the fact that Arabs haven't done military service, even in jobs unrelated to the military. And don't get me started on the tens of thousands of Bedouin Arabs living in "unrecognised villages" in the Negev (most of which predate 1948) who endure lack of water, electricity, sanitation and medical facilities. There have been no new Arab townships since 1948 despite a massive increase in population and the existing Arab areas generally endure poor infrastructure such as unmade roads and lack of medical facilities. Contrast that with those lovely new settlements exclusively for Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 05:22 AM

Every country in the world has social issues and most worse than Israel's, so I question your motive for singling out Israel.

The poorest Arab in Israel would not be tempted to move to any nearby Arab country where Arab poverty is much worse, so I question your motive for singling out Israel.

Egypt's Bedouin have a far worse existence than those in Israel, so again I question your motive for singling out Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 05:31 AM

Good heavens, Shaw, Carroll et al if as you claim things are so bad for Israeli Arabs under this regime of "ethnic cleansing" why are they not fleeing the place to the obvious paradise destinations just over the borders of Israel - Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Gaza?

Among all those refugees streaming across the Med how many of them are Israeli Arabs?

I can tell you why there is no exodus of Israeli Arabs, but I'd like to hear your explanation of a fact that completely contradicts everything you state about the lot of an Arab in Israel compared to anywhere else in the region.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 05:43 AM

"Israel has a system of universal health care run by semi-private non-profit corporations heavily regulated by the government, whereas all citizens are entitled to the same Uniform Benefit Package."

"Israel's Arab population has a life expectancy of 75.9 years for males, and 79.7 years for females."

Jordan, male 72.5, female 75.9
Egypt, male 68.8, female 73.2
Lebanon male 73.5 female 76.5

Israel's Arabs are much better off than Arab Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 05:52 AM

"Good heavens, Shaw, Carroll e"
More talking down from a mental midget
They are not "fleeing" because it is their rightful home - only a bully would make such a suggestion.
Nobody has ever suggested a "paradise" of any sort except sarcastic thugs like you
Peopes homes are peoples homes wherever the are
These are people fighting being ethnic cleansed out of existence and you are suggesting they should fuck off elsewhere to avoid being wiped out - which sums the Israeli position up perfectly
None of which addresses the war crimes and atrocities that are regularly taking place by a criminal regime that has only avioded being brought to trial by the support of a war-criminal superstate using its U.N. veto
If Israel wasn't led by a criminal regime it would not need that veto and all the "decent democratic" nations would be protesting to the high heavens that their friend was being unjustly accused - none are - they are just keeping schtumm out of self-interest
ISRAEL'S WAR CRIMES
Now - where'd your howl of protest from these "decent, democratic nations"
No ?
Thought not!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 05:53 AM

Excuse me, you clowns. My posts are a direct response to Bobad's claims apropos of perfect equality for Arab citizens in Israel. Your usual bleats about how much worse things are in other countries (which I have no interest in denying, by the way) are facile and childish. We should let off little Johnny for stealing little Mary's sweeties just because little Jimmy has been looking up the girls' skirts. That's how it goes. Just to remind you that one bloody good reason for a person not fleeing their country is that they were born there and all their family lives there. When we did we ever run our countries on the basis of if you don't like it here, especially if you're not in my ethnic group, just bugger off? By the way, the information I've provided is easily accessible from neutral sources, Teribus. Clasping your hands over your ears instead of looking it up for yourself just because I brought it up is piling childishness on childishness. Look it up. Not one word of it is made up. In fact, it's a fair bit worse than I said. Off you go now.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 05:56 AM

The clowns in question being Keith and Teribus, of course. I wonder whether Keith has typed that bigoted shite of his straight after he's been saying his Sunday prayers down the church...

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:02 AM

If "Palestine" is their "rightful" home Jom, why are there so many "Palestinians" cooped up in refugee camps in "Palestine"? Yet there is not one single Israeli Arab, or Jew, living in a refugee camp in Israel.

"Nobody has ever suggested a "paradise" of any sort except sarcastic thugs like you"

Shaw seemed to have suggested it while detailing the horrendous levels of discrimination and deprivation meted out to Israeli Arabs that apparently is not meted out to Arabs elsewhere.

Anyone suffering such treatment who does not actively take steps to correct the situation can only be regarded as a complete and utter cnut (Anag).

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:10 AM

What a stupid thing to say. Show me when I've ever suggested that any of the surrounding countries are paradise. And I didn't say "horrendous" either. I gave you factual information without exaggeration that is easily checkable. I note that you're still blustering on even though you're not bothering to check. Just grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:56 AM

Keith has typed that bigoted shite

Keith just typed facts.
You always resort to abuse when you lose Steve.

You can not challenge a single thing that I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:59 AM

Show me when I've ever suggested that any of the surrounding countries are paradise.

You always and only criticises Israel while ignoring the far worse record of all its neighbours.
Your motive for that is questionable indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:29 AM

What is "bigoted" Steve is always and only singling out for criticism the only Jewish State in the world while ignoring the far worse record of all its neighbouring states.
That is real "bigoted shite" Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:29 AM

"The poorest Arab in Israel would not be tempted to move to any nearby Arab country where Arab poverty is much worse, so I question your motive for singling out Israel.

Egypt's Bedouin have a far worse existence than those in Israel, so again I question your motive for singling out Israel."

These are bigoted and racist remarks as you are telling Arabs in Israel, who are discriminated against, that they should be happy with their lot because other countries may treat them even worse. You are suggesting that Arabs moving out of their own native country, away from their homes and families, is a potential solution for their mistreatment. Shuddering echoes of apartheid South Africa and Iain Smith's Rhodesia there. Ugly. And my motive in contributing to this thread is to correct bobad's inaccurate comments about perfect equality for Arabs in Israel. I note that you have nothing to say about that, going off on a sidetrack as usual about how other countries are even worse. Both you and Teribus are happy to accept that blinkered stance without bothering to check the real facts of the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:31 AM

"singling out for criticism the only Jewish State in the world"

Tell me, Keith - what's the subject of this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:50 AM

""singling out for criticism the only "
The fact that is the "Jewish State in the world" is the very reason it needs to be "singled out"
Israel is largely made up of refugees from the worst act of genocide in the modern world
The various regimes who have ruled Israel in the manner they have, have betrayed those refugees and their dream of a world free of persecution such as that inflicted by the Nazis.
The final betrayal has been to commit war crimes and atrocities against other ethnic groups in the name of the Jewish People.
A long way from the comment of a holocaust survivor friend told me "never again - not to anybody"
The atrocities carried out by the Israelis are no different than those carried out elsewhere but they are a damn sight more dangerous to this planet as a whole as Israel is a wealthy state, well armed and protected to the extent of being nuclear facilitated.
The fact that its atrocities are carried out in order to expand its borders (go, look at the maps) makes their claim of "defence" a disgusting excuse, no better than those who used it to explain massacres such as Lidicé (go count the dead on both sides to see how "defensive" Israeli behaviour is)
some of Israel's fiercest and most vehement critics are Jews, from Einstein to former Mossad directors and Holocaust survivors and their descendants
Your disgusting excuse that it is wrong to critiscise Israel because it is "Jewish" or because other people do it is as low as it gets
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 08:13 AM

The fact that 77% of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world puts lie to the bigots.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bubblyrat
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 08:14 AM

What memories do I have of 1967 and the "six day war "?? Well, at the time , I was serving aboard the aircraft-carrier HMS Eagle ,and about to leave for Aden ; however, the Suez canal was blocked by sunken ships and rendered impassable . Therefore, we were obliged to get to Aden the "long way round" , stopping at Ascencion Island to give aid to a badly-damaged US aircraft-carrier ,then having a short stay in Capetown,followed by an unscheduled stop at Gan ((Addu Atoll) in the Maldives in order to recover one of our Sea Vixens which had overshot the runway there, arriving ,eventually, in Singapore ,by which time the "six day war" was well and truly over ,and the Aden emergency was in its last throes. Facts from our 1967/68 commission ; distance travelled ; 112,000 miles ;fuel oil consumed ;220,000 tons.I don't know offhand how many gallons that is, or what our miles-per gallon ( or gallons per mile) figures were, but it was probably quite expensive!

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 08:31 AM

"The fact that 77% of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world puts lie to the bigots."
There has ben no survey to suggest that those figures have not been snatched out of thee air but they are immaterial anyway
Israel is wealthier than its neighbors and it is inevitable that all who live there are better off
The Inequality Report has shown that Arabs are treated as second class citizens and that their rights as citizens are being eroded.
This is a fair summation of the rights of Arabs in Israel
Jim Carroll

While world attention is focused on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, a crisis is brewing among Israel's own Arab citizens.
"This is not a democracy, it is an ethnocracy," complains Assad Ghanem, senior lecturer in political science at Israel's Haifa University.
Ghanem is an Arab Israeli, a descendent of the indigenous population that did not flee, or was not driven away during the war in 1948/49 when the Jewish state was founded.
Arab Israelis now make up some 20 percent of Israel's six million-plus population. In a country that defines itself as Jewish and that has always been in conflict with the surrounding Arab countries and with the Palestinians, the position of this minority has always been uncomfortable.
Since the outbreak of the current Intifadah in the West Bank and Gaza, relations between Jews and Arabs in Israel have worsened. The Arab minority was shocked and traumatized when the police killed 13 members of their community during demonstrations inside Israel during the early days of the Intifadah in September and October 2000.
The rest of the Israeli public was equally shocked by the pro-Palestinian demonstrations and by the subsequent increase in the number of Arab Israelis said to have been aiding Palestinian terror attacks inside the country.
This week the International Crisis Group (ICG), a non-governmental organization that aims to help resolve conflict situations issued a report on the tensions between Israel and its Arab citizens. It concluded that the problem has been ignored, relative to the attention focused on the country's relations with the Palestinians and the Arab countries. It also warned that further neglect could threaten the long-term stability of Israel.
Nowadays Assad Ghanem scoffs at being called an Arab citizen of Israel. "We are not full citizens, this country is only for the Jews," he told IPS. He has become markedly more disillusioned about the situation over the last couple of years. "The way the police killed our people in 2000 shows that we don't count, we don't even have the possibility to demand our rights."
The ICG report notes that the trouble "goes to the heart of Israel's self-definition as both a Jewish and a democratic state and because of the complex, multi-layered nature of inter-communal relations – an Arab minority living in a Jewish state that is in conflict with its far more populous Arab neighbors."
Ghanem agrees to an extent. He thinks the only solution is "regime change," meaning "the end of Jewish hegemony in Israel." The Jewish nature of the state, he says, can be expressed symbolically in things such as the flag and the national anthem. Short of that he sees no solution, since the Arab minority has nobody to talk to.
Yitzhak Reiter, a political scientist at Jerusalem's Hebrew University who specializes in the country's Arab minority agrees to a degree. Neither Jews nor Arabs are willing at the moment to compromise on their demands, which means they are set on an inevitable collision course, he told IPS.
The Jewish majority is not willing to compromise on what it regards as the essential attributes of a Jewish state, while the Arab minority too often wants to eliminate all practical expressions of the Judaism of the state.
Reiter thinks this can be resolved eventually if, as the ICG recommends, an inclusive dialogue is started between the groups. The end result, he believes, could be a state that retains the symbolic attributes of Judaism as Ghanem suggests, but also some 'minimal' practical means of ensuring the function of the country as a haven for Jews. The state would retain a Jewish majority, meaning control over immigration policy.
The ICG report, Ghanem and Reiter all speak of serious discrimination against the Arab Israelis. Ghanem mentions the 'Judaization' campaigns in parts of the country such as the Galilee where the government thinks it is important to create Jewish majorities.
But Israel's Arab citizens also "enjoy political rights unknown to many in the region," the ICG report says. This includes a vote, and a high degree of freedom of expression and association.
Even so, they are politically under-represented, according to the ICG. Reiter says this is mainly because they are never included in coalition government by the "Zionist" parties, which means they never get the benefits of sharing power. Also, says Reiter, they are seriously underrepresented among the country's civil servants.
Reiter proposes creation of a formal Arab body as representative of the community, so that complaints can be discussed more readily.
The ICG and Reiter both note that a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians may make reconciliation with the country easier. "Without a peace agreement, it is difficult to see how the situation can improve," says Reiter.
For the time being the Arab minority is feeling increasingly frustrated and isolated. "The fact that there is no violence now does not mean that we are happy," says Ghanem. "It means we are afraid."
The ICG calls these tensions a serious threat to the stability of the country. Reiter tones that down a bit. "It certainly is a challenge to the stability but the state has the military power and the security services to deal with it," he says. "We may see more demonstrations like the ones in October 2000 and more repression and that would be very bad both for the Jews and the Arabs in this country."
https://antiwar.com/orig/branham.php?articleid=2093

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 09:23 AM

"The fact that 77% of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world puts lie to the bigots."

So almost a quarter of Arab citizens would rather up sticks, leave their families, their homes and the country of their birth behind in order to live in one of those dreadful nearby foreign countries that Keith and Teribus keep telling us about. Dunno about you, but I regard that as a dreadful failing of the Israeli regime. So the other 77% would rather stay. Was there a question in the survey about how reluctantly they made that decision? Instead of clutching at straws that aren't even straws, why don't you just look up the stuff I told you about? That's the facts of the matter, easily checkable, not some peculiar survey that seems to be based around a simplistic question that in any case yielded a result that doesn't support your case. None so blind...

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 10:06 AM

I don't suppose that anyone bothered to ask that 77% (if indeed it IS 77%) the REASONS or RATIONAlE for wishing to stay.....

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 10:13 AM

Funny that the same non-Jews who feel curiously entitled to tell Jews what anti-Semitism is are the same to tell the Israeli Arabs, who would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world, how badly they are being treated.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 10:48 AM

I don't suppose that anyone bothered to ask that 77% (if indeed it IS 77%) the REASONS or RATIONAlE for wishing to stay...

I would venture to say that it's because they know they have it better in Israel than they would anywhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 11:14 AM

"Funny that the same non-Jews who feel curiously entitled to tell Jews what anti-Semitism "
Funny the people wh choose to ignore the hordes of Jews who condemn the Israeli regime and resent being implicated in its crimes
It really is down to which Jew you choose to listen to - not a coincidence that he ones you support are of the extreme right
Israel is an extremely wealthy country - the fact that some Arabs
prefer to live there rather than the impoverished ones says nothing about how they are treated
They stay there because it is traditionally their home and refuse to be driven out by ethnic cleansers
Jim Carroll

Q&A: Israeli Arabs
About 20% of Israel's population are of Palestinian Arab descent. Israeli Arabs often complain they are second-class citizens, while some Jewish Israelis fear they form a "fifth column".
Israeli Arabs protests against Israeli operation in Gaza
Israeli-Arab protests against Israeli military action worry some
Who are the Israeli Arabs?
About a fifth of Israel's population - roughly 1.45m people - are of Palestinian Arab descent.
During the war that surrounded the creation of the state of Israel in 1948, hundreds of thousands of Arabs were forced from or fled their homes. Those who remained within what became Israel, and their descendents, have been granted citizenship and are known as Israeli Arabs.
In addition there are about 250,000 Arab residents of occupied East Jerusalem. The majority have refused citizenship, so are not described as Israeli Arabs, but still have Israeli residency.
About 80% of Israeli Arabs are Muslim, the rest are divided, roughly equally, between Christians and Druze.
The majority of Israeli Arabs identify closely with Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza and often describe themselves as "Palestinian citizens of Israel" and "1948 Palestinians".
What is their status in Israel?
Israel defines itself as both Jewish and democratic, but some argue it is impossible for it to be both without discriminating against non-Jews.
The Israeli government says Israeli Arabs are citizens with equal rights - although their "civic duty" differs as they are exempt from compulsory military service.
It points out that Israel's Declaration of Independence promises equality for all.
But one Israeli-Arab MP has described Israel as "democratic for Jews and Jewish for Arabs" and Israeli Arabs frequently describe themselves as "second class citizens".
The Orr Commission, a government inquiry, concluded in 2003 that "government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory".
And the US state department says Israeli Arabs face "institutional, legal, and societal discrimination".
Where do they live?
The largest concentration of Israeli Arabs is in the north of Israel, in towns such as Nazareth, Um al-Fahm and Sakhnin. Many also live in mixed cities such as Haifa, Jaffa and Acre.
The Israeli state appropriated what the Orr commission described as "vast expanses" of land owned by Arabs who fled or were forced out in the wake of 1948.
This and subsequent policies resulted in a "drastic decrease" in the land available to Israeli Arabs, the commission said.
Although determining accurate figures is difficult, advocacy groups say Israeli Arabs now live on about 3% of the land in Israel, despite making up about 20% of the population.
Since 1948, no new Arab towns - apart from Bedouin townships - have been founded, although the Israeli-Arab population has grown at least sevenfold.
Many Arab communities were surrounded by areas used for security purposes, Jewish regional councils, national parks and highways, that prevent or block future expansion, the commission said.
According to advocacy groups, some 160,000 Bedouin Arabs live in the Negev in southern Israeli, about half of them in "unrecognised settlements" which are cut off from basic services.
Most of the rest live in impoverished towns established by the state.
What are Israeli Arabs' living conditions like?
More than half of Israeli-Arab families are living in poverty, compared to about 15% of Jewish Israeli families, and the gap is widening.
For all but one of the past five years, Israeli-Arab communities have received less than 5% of government development funding each year, according to the Mossawa advocacy centre.
Municipal services in many Israeli-Arab communities are inferior to those in Jewish areas, with classrooms shortages, ageing roads and a lack of local employment opportunities.
Some Israelis blame lower levels of municipal tax collection in Israeli-Arab areas for the gap.
The Mossawa Centre says some Israeli Arabs are unwilling to pay taxes for poor local services, but adds that Israeli-Arab areas tend to have fewer of the factories, businesses and government offices that feed municipal coffers in other areas.
The US state department says Israeli Arabs are "underrepresented in most fields of employment". For example, the Mossawa Centre says only 8% of employees in government offices are Israeli-Arab and of 70,000 employees in hi-tech companies only 300 are Arabs.
There is no state-funded Arabic language university.
Israeli Arabs also miss out on benefits, such as housing and educational subsidies, available to people who have completed national service.
The foreign ministry has said that this can outweigh the advantage gained from being able to start higher education earlier than those who serve in the military.
Are Jewish and Arab Israelis equal under the law?
The Israeli government says yes, Israeli-Arab advocacy groups say no.
The Mossawa Centre says at least 20 laws discriminate overtly or tacitly against them. It points out that Israeli Arabs are not classed as an official minority and says Arabic, though an official language, does not have the same status as Hebrew. Muslim and Christian festivals are not national holidays; Jewish ones are.
One particularly controversial law is the 2003 Citizenship Law, under which Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza - women under 25 and men under 35 - who marry Israelis are not usually allowed to move to Israel.
Palestinians over those ages are granted only temporary residency, not citizenship. Israel says the law is necessary for security; Israeli Arabs say it discriminates as it affects them disproportionately.
Another hard-fought area is access to land.
About 93% of land in Israel is owned by state or semi-state bodies and is then leased to citizens.
Thirteen percent of the land is owned by the Jewish National Fund, which was founded specifically to buy land for a Jewish homeland. Its directors have a powerful role in the state body that controls the other 80% of the land. Israeli Arabs have long complained of difficulties in leasing this land.
Three legal cases since 2000 have, however, set precedents with rulings that neither the state nor local residents' committees can block the leasing of land on the basis of race.
But MPs have tried to use legislation to overturn the rulings, and advocacy groups say it is still, in practice, difficult for Israeli Arabs to lease much state-controlled land.
Where is their role politically?
Israeli Arabs were under military rule until 1966. Independent Arab political parties did not emerge until the 1980s and 1990s.
There are currently 13 Israeli-Arab members in the 120-seat Knesset, (10 representing primarily Arab parties).
Israeli Arabs are frequently dubbed a "fifth column" in Israel, particularly at times of heightened tensions with the Palestinians such as the second intifada or recent Gaza conflict, when Israeli Arabs held protests.
Some Israeli Arabs do not participate in national elections as they do not believe their vote will change anything, or do not wish to recognise the Israeli state.
An Islamist group called the Islamic Movement champions the latter position, although it participates in local polls.
A handful of Israeli-Arab leaders have been investigated for visiting Syria - with which Israel is still technically at war. Accusations of incitement are frequently traded between Israeli-Arab and right-wing Jewish politicians.
What is the Israeli government's position?
The Israeli government points out that, since the creation of Israel, Israeli Arabs have seen dramatic gains in areas such as education, health care and areas such as women's rights.
It says other factors, such as large families and the low level of female employment, as well as discrimination, contribute to the lower socio-economic position of Israeli Arabs.
The Orr Commission was established after 13 Israeli-Arabs were killed by police trying to quell riots as the second Palestinian uprising or intifada broke out in 2000.
The commission found police incompetence, a history of discrimination and also incitement by Israeli-Arab leaders had all contributed to the incident.
Israeli Arabs were angered that police involved in the deaths did not face trial.
The right-leaning government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu includes a minorities minister.
It has announced a $40m fund for joint state-private sector investment in minority businesses.
But coalition members have also proposed two controversial bills.
One demands Israeli Arabs pledge allegiance to Israel as a Jewish state.
The other initially sought to ban marking the Nakba, the term meaning "catastrophe" that Palestinians use to describe the creation of Israel.
It has been watered down to stop state funding for activities which reject the existence of Israel as a Jewish state.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 11:50 AM

Steve,
These are bigoted and racist remarks

No. They are both factual comparisons. Do you deny them?

Tell me, Keith - what's the subject of this thread?

There were several protagonists in the 6 Day War, but you always and only single out one, the only Jewish state, for criticism.

You made an apt analogy of children's behaviour.
If you only and always chastise little Johnny's behaviour even though surrounding kids are behaving worse, and little Johnny happens to be the only Jewish kid, you invite the suspicion that his ethnicity is relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 11:53 AM

I would venture to say that it's because they know they have it better in Israel...

You can venture to say anything you like but without evidence/substantiation its still bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 11:55 AM

"No. They are both factual comparisons. Do you deny them?"
Of course they are
You choose argue that they put up with being treated as second class citizens because they would be treated worse elsewhere
Even if it were true, which it is not (no other state is driving legally occupying citizens with chemical sprays as if happening in Israel.
It's a stupid "we'll reat you how we like"
argument

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 11:57 AM

An even more stupid post than usual, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Six Day War 50 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 12:01 PM

You mean you can not challenge or answer anything I have said, as usual Steve.

If you could you would.