Arlo Guthrie story

Subject: Arlo Gurhrie story
From: leeneia
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 04:24 PM

My brother, who tunes the piano for an 'opera house', is retiring from the job. He wrote the following to me:

I had hoped to meet Edward Florenz Ziegfeld there one of these days, but I guess I’ll have to be content having met Judy Collins and Arlo Guthrie instead. When Becky and I saw the Arlo Guthrie concert I tuned for, he told a story of his father who was hospitalized in a “mental Institution” for a time. One day Arlo asked a nurse how his father was doing, and she said “He’s Ok, but he thinks he’s a famous folk song writer!”

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: JHW
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 05:10 AM

A not uncommon delusion

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 09:54 AM

aw!   that was a low blow! :0)

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 10:17 AM

Arlo turnd up in my home town of Miltown Malbay, County Clare (before we over here) looking for folk songs
He parked his camper van on the town square and put a notice on the window asking anybody who knew any old songs to drop in and sing into the mike
Nobody came - collecting doesn't work like that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: Jim McLean
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 11:24 AM

Dylan's collecting method was better: just set up a tape recorder in the Troubadour on Saturday nights.

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 12:27 PM

From some of the rancour caused by what Dylan did with the songs he recorded, I think you'll find that Martin Carthy wouldn't describe his technique as "better"
Jim

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 12:46 PM

"Effective"?

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: Jim McLean
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 03:18 AM

I was talking about Dylan's "collecting" method, not what he did with the material.

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 03:46 AM

Wasn’t it Paul Simon who used Carthy,s version of Scarborough Fair ? What did Dylan do to Martin Carthy ?

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: gillymor
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 06:58 AM

Arlo once introduced his hit City of New Orleans by saying that "Steve Goodman played this song for me in the back of a bar in Chicago and asked me to get it to Johnny Cash.-pause- I ain't seen Cash since"

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: leeneia
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 06:38 PM

Meaning what, exactly?

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: GUEST,no Cash
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 07:17 PM

That he kept it for himself?

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 07:36 PM

Carthy gave Dylan 'Scarbourough Fair' and Lord Franklin - he turned them into 'Girl From the North Country and 'Bob Dylan's Dream'
I'm not sure what Carthy's gripe was - neither song belonged to him anyway
MacColl and Joan Littlewood recorded Scarborough fait from lead miner Mark Anderson, whose version wasn't a million iles from Kidson's; I'm nor sure where Franklin Came from but I'm pretty sure that Martin sang Bert Lloyd's version
If everybody got their own, Harry Cox and Sam Larner would have died rich - but they don't count when we've taken their songs, do they?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 02:50 AM

I have not heard this Dylan/Carthy story before. when did this happen and how did it come about. was Dylan in the Uk ? I didn’t,t realize he had been there that early in his career. Could you shed a bit more light on this, I am very curious.

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 05:43 AM

I don,t know why the above keeps happening.... ?
I just watched a very interesting interview with MartinCarthy on the subject of Bob Dylan. it is well worth listening to as it dispels some of the   Myths surrounding Dylan And Carthy.

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 09:34 AM

Maybe Arlo never gave it to Johnny Cash, but he seemed to have found it anyway. City of New Orleans, Johnny Cash

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 01:50 PM

well, HiLo, if you didn't realize that Dylan had been in the UK
that early in his career,
what would set you straight
would be to read
an interview or two with Martin Carthy.
He has spoken, often and positively,
about how important it was for him personally
to hear a young Bob Dylan
singing "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll"
which performance was
a validation that long ballads and live audiences
actually DO go together well.

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 06:38 PM

Thanks keberoxu, I did know that he had been in the uk in Dec. of 1962. However, it has been posted here that Dylan somehow “took” Scarborough Fair from Carthy. that is not the case, as the interview with Carthy confirms. if you had read my earlier post you would know that I HAD watched the Carthy interview,
To the best of my knowledge, it was Paul Simon,not Dylan, who had the dispute withDylan regardingScarborough Fair. The original poster has not commented on his accusation. I do thank you for your observations, however.

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 06:42 PM

Should read.....had the dispute with Carthy,

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 03:42 AM

I'm not sure what Carthy's gripe was - neither song belonged to him anyway

It was - I believe - the arrangement that Paul Simon took. And the myth is that eventually (long after) Paul Simon gave Carthy 5,000 GBPs. I think there must have been a hole in his pocket and his trousers had turn-ups! There has been discussion in this parish on the subject.

And I do remember that the "hit" that Paul Simon had was "Scarborough Fair: Canticle", which allowed Simon to claim songwriting copyright or at least as "arrangement" (hence the royalties thereof) and in the latter case Carthy would have a beef.

And FWIW the Arlo Guthrie version of "City of New Orleans" was definitve, IMNSHO Johnny Cash would not have made quite such an iconic version. And I have heard tell that it took 6 months of re-arranging the song before Arlo was happy with the result. And the tme was well spent.

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 03:48 AM

Just a note, a Carthy quote - "you can do anything, anything you want to a folk song. And it will survive. Anything except ignore it"

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 04:33 AM

In the interview I heard with M Carthy, he simply said that, on night, he showed P Simon how to play his guitar part on Scarborough Fair. The famous S & G part is identical to MC’s earlier recording of it.

As an aside, the Late Alan Bell always reckoned that Paul Simon had nicked one of his tunes.

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 04:36 AM

Martin Carthy actually said that the only way to damage or harm folk music is not to perform it.

And Martin's beef with Paul Simon was that Simon claimed all the credit for Scarborough Fair, whereas he should have credited it as ' traditional arranged Simon '

Dave H

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 08:43 AM

Martin Carthy actually said that the only way to damage or harm folk music is not to perform it.

Actually it depends on the televised interview you watched. I can assure that my quote is close to what I heard (and the arrangement I credit to Carthy) - the words ignore and survive were there, and anything came up several times.
But maybe he got tired of saying it the same way over and over, let us call it the folk process...... The message is the same.

He also in the same interview said somewhat to the effect "You can have love, rejection, murder, 100 years war and humour, all in a three minute tale - that's a folk song"

"City of New Orleans" may not be quite as extensive, but it does whirl you 100 miles in three minutes - that's a folk song for you............

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 11:47 AM

The unfortunate thing about City of New Orleans is that Arlo Guthrie slightly changed the tune and people singing the original version - a la Steve Goodman - are often accused of singing the wrong tune.

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 11:52 AM

As an aside, did anyone watch the recent Billy Connolley series - when he was talking about the hotel he was staying in being older than the USA? The Red Lion Inn, in Stockbridge, Mass. has another claim to fame - it’s only 50 yards from the original Alice’s Restaurant. It was closed when I stayed there!

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: Jim McLean
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 12:33 PM

I introduced Dylan to Martin Carthy, winter of 1962. My girlfriend, now wife, was on the door at the King and Queen folk club when Dylan came up the stairs. I showed him into the club room and he sat at the back. Martin and Nigel,Denver we're hosting that night so I spoke to Martin and told him there was an American kid at the back with a guitar so maybe Martin could ask him up for a song. At the interval Dylan came up to me for a chat ..... this was all documented and I took part in a BBC radio show hosted by Bob Harris a few years ago. Martin confirmed all of this.

Subject: RE: Arlo Guthrie story
From: GUEST,Samson
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 01:39 PM

It's obvious to anyone with any deep knowledge of folk music that it was invented by Nick Drake AND Bob Dylan all the Martin McCarthy fans have obviously never heard of those two originators and another thing is they have folk music in Africa too for example the song Free Nelson Mandela, from which the famous Policeman Nelson Mandela was named after, so don"t think NICK DRAKE is all folk music is there is more to folk music than just Nick!!!