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Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music
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Subject: Musician vs One-who-plays-music From: Homeless Date: 04 Mar 00 - 09:38 AM Does anyone else draw a distinction between a musician and somebody that plays an instrument? I go folk dancing quite often and can tell a difference in the music - whether I consider members of the band actual 'musicians' or only people who play instruments. My problem is that I can't define the difference - only give examples. Having messed with a number of instruments myself, the inability to define this is rather irritating. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Troll Date: 04 Mar 00 - 10:29 AM Musicians commit.Theothers don't. It's not a matter of skill level but of attitude. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Duffy Keith Date: 04 Mar 00 - 10:35 AM Some people are playing music, and some people are playing musician....DK |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Mooh Date: 04 Mar 00 - 01:07 PM Attention fellow aliens. Anal probes are working! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Caitrin Date: 04 Mar 00 - 02:37 PM The difference, IMHO, is a matter of soul. I know musicians who don't play as technically well as some of the people I know who play instruments. If you put your heart into what you are singing/playing and give it your absolute best, I believe you are a musician. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Mbo Date: 04 Mar 00 - 03:41 PM I guess I would consider myself a player of music. I play guitar and fiddle, reasonably well, but am by no means what I would at least consider a "musician." I had a chance...I had good hopes of being a classical guitarist one day. But my art studies, which I also loved, and also will give me a steady job, took over, so I had to let that dream go. It's funny...when I was 14 I wrote that in the future, I would perform a classical guitar solo at the 100th anniversary of Queen Elizabeth's coronation. Ahh...the dreams of youth! --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Troll Date: 04 Mar 00 - 03:59 PM Hang on to the dream, Meebo.It may yet come true! troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: longhair Date: 04 Mar 00 - 04:04 PM I've thought about this a while back. I finally decided that my definition of a musician is one who can take his/her instrutment/s of choice and play most any style, with most anyone, anytime. I guess as example, a studio musician, who has to play different styles w/ different people, all the time. They have it all down technically, if they also have feeling in it, so much the better. This don't mean i think they're better at making music. I seen alot of people w/ less technical skills than I (if that's possible), and make more "music" than any 3 folks. And if this makes sense, good, if not, sorry 'bout that!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: MK Date: 04 Mar 00 - 04:08 PM Musicians, have paid or continue to ''pay their dues''. Non-musicians haven't. It's also an inherent desire, as strong as eating, sleeping, pro-creating...to make, play and create music. IMHO, the combination of the above two points, constitute the difference between a true musician and a musician wanna-be. It's almost like the difference between an amateur photographer and a professional photographer. The amateur photographer views a scene and says '' Gee, that would make a nice picture.'' The professional photographer takes the picture. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Mar 00 - 05:00 PM I don't go for this distinction. Sure, you can always take two words or phrases that mean the same thing, and then play around with making a distinction between them, and sometimes its fun and sometimes its useful.
But in this case I think it's better to use the one word "musician", which links us all together, rather than try to break us down into ins and outs.
There's great musicians and there's good musicans and there's struggling and failing mysicians and all that. And there's times when great musicians play way way below their true standard, and times when normally ropy musicians play way way above their normal stadard.
It's like we all talk, but some people are orators with golden voices, and most of us aren't and haven't. What really matters though is how we use our ability to talk in order to communicate with each other - we can lie, coax, help, hurt... Music's a language, anbd thge instrument is our way of talking that language. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: pastorpest Date: 04 Mar 00 - 05:00 PM Musicians emote and share their souls. I have heard two classical musicians play identical instruments, exactly the same notes, the same compositions with technical accuracy. One might as well have played scales while the other brought the souls of composer, musician and audience together. I think it is true in all genres of music, Beyond words and our minds capacity to conceptualize musicians use music to communicate soul. Musicians, however skilled, do not get beyond the instruments and the notes and there is neither spirit nor life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: MK Date: 04 Mar 00 - 05:25 PM McGrath, I respect your comments and understand your disagreement with mine...and I admit I took a very tight interpretation of the word ''musician'' but, applied in a way that I relate to the term with I guess my own standard of the word..and of course there could be many who disagree. Your interpretation is much looser than mine, and so, I tend to disagree with you. I am not a folkie, nor do I pretend to be. I don't listen to a lot of folk music. It just so happens that some of the styles of fingerpicking that I do, converge on some of the same styles that many well-known and traditional folk artists are credited for, in their performances. But I don't pretend to walk the walk and talk the talk, of the folk music world. But, as I have personally walked the walk and talked the talk, of a professional musician, my standards of defining the word are more tightly focussed. Just going to a store, buying a guitar, learning 4 or 5 chords on it, and a few tunes that encompass these chords, does NOT make one a musician. Being a true musician is a state of mind, an attitude (as already mentioned previously in this thread) and perhaps a desire to be as good at it as you can. As well, you should have the ability to read music, transpose on the fly, and have enough versatility to ADAPT to almost any musical situation. You do not have to be a professional musician to aspire to these goals...but the best musicians I have ever known and played with have these abilities. But, if nothing else, if you can communicate and touch people on an emotional level with your playing, and performing, then that too I suppose would consititute a good musician. If with this opinion, I exclude (unintentionally) a lot of the people who frequent this forum, then they would be taking my comments and opinions on the subject too personally...and perhaps if they do, a reality check is in order of their respective skills. Contrary to my opinion, yours is obviously more in keeping with trying to include as many people as possible....but by doing so, you create a much looser standard. I guess that's what separates us in our respective opinions. Somehow, I think Rick Fielding would know exactly what it is I'm trying to get across. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Mar 00 - 05:55 PM Wouldn't agree with too much of that Michael. It's howmyou want to use the words. But I think that your meaning would mean that many fine muisicians, as I'd call them, wouldn't qualify under your terms. That especially goes for the ability to read music.
And I'm especially thinking here about musicians from non Western traditions, such as the Indian subcontinent.
So as a decriptive term, you use it your way, I'll use it my way. Just so long as it isn't supposed to carry a built-in value judgement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Mar 00 - 05:58 PM Clasical example there, Michael, of how arguments can escalate - that first sentence was supposed to say "wouldn't disagree"!! So I hope you read this before sending an indignant response... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: GUEST,Clubber Date: 04 Mar 00 - 06:02 PM There's a very fine line, I think between being a folk-musician and not being able to play atall. Who am I quoting??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Sorcha Date: 04 Mar 00 - 06:06 PM I think this category includes an accordian player that I am "obligated" to play with in our sessions on (thankfully rare!) occasions. He plays very loud notes that are tunes, but has no idea that we played it 5 minutes ago in a different key, and no idea what anyone else in the group is doing at any time! He is apparently incapable of hearing anything, including himself, and his not physiologically deaf. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: MK Date: 04 Mar 00 - 06:11 PM No problem McGrath. I did try and qualify some of my comments (in my second post here), so as not to be so exclusive in my opinion and alienate too many as you say, good musicians, who may not be able to read a note of music, or even play chords (ie: B.B. King).. Cheers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Mbo Date: 04 Mar 00 - 06:13 PM I don't know, Troll. Sometimes you just have to let go of a dream. I can still pick up my classical guitar...but I can barely remember the old pieces that I had so memorized that I could play them in my sleep. I can play some new stuff on it, but I have to realize that there will never again be the time I once had to devote to practicing. It's still there for fun, but a serious career in it is impossible now. I have an serious Design degree to work on now. I don't think I would have made a very good performer anyhow. At my final recital at community college, I played for about 20 friends and family. I was so scared and nervous that I could barely keep my hands still to play--a bad thing, especially when your right hand is supposed to be steady as a rock. And when I had to apologize in the middle of a piece for a break in concentration that caused me to forget what came next, my guitar teacher thought I was going to start crying. Hey! Those bananas DIDN'T work! --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Ana Date: 04 Mar 00 - 06:14 PM Just a small (provocative) query, where do singers fit into your analysies? Ana
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Mar 00 - 06:19 PM The voice is the first and the finest human instrument. In fact it is the human as instrument. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: sophocleese Date: 04 Mar 00 - 06:22 PM I have a good instrument in my possesion and can play it quite well. The disappointment of my life is that it needs to be played by a better musician, but as its my voice, I can't do much about it. Yes I make a distinction and in doing so strive always to be better, but I also am usually much harder on myself than I am on anybody else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Osmium Date: 04 Mar 00 - 06:28 PM Well now I have to take odds with you all! A musician, to me, is someone who is able to hear the difference between carefull phrasing, the real music of the music, and way beyond what is written down, and those who cannot. Those who cannot may still enjoy music, just as the colour blind may enjoy a painting - it is a different, not defficient, perception of the same entity. Those who know what the music of the music is will understand that technical competence is required to attain these levels for the subtelty of timing is paramount but also not necessarily difficult for those who can hear it - it requires practice. I have an abhorrence of classification and labelling in all things - as yet there is no IQ test to measure the abilities of the slow deep thinker - but because one can't do doesn't mean one can't appreciate and it takes one musician to recognise another. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: GUEST,Homeless (somewhere else) Date: 04 Mar 00 - 07:40 PM As I put in my original post, I notice the distinction between the kinds of musicians mostly at dances. There are some musicians that can get the entire crowd dancing with fervent energy. Others can play the whole night and everyone just plods along. I can't put my finger on what exactly is different about the music, but I do know the way it affects the dancers. I'm not sure if it's a synergy being built upon, or just emotion being poured out thru the instruments. Another thing I've noticed is that "musicians" tend to move when they play - rocking back and forth (guitarist), hunching shoulders and bobbing head (hammered dulcimer-ist (?)), swaying to and fro (bassist).
I do know that while playing orchestral string bass for 6 years in high school I was only playing the notes. After starting to mess with the guitar at one point I suddenly felt like the music was playing me (while playing a simple 3 chord song). Ditto with banjo - after 3 months of learning a bluegrass alternating thumb roll, it suddenly sounded and felt different. My pennywhistle teach once looked at me with slack-jawed amazement after I played a song I particularly liked. When I asked why he looked so dazed he replied, "That's the first thing I've ever heard you play that sounded like music." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Sorcha Date: 04 Mar 00 - 07:55 PM No, I don't think you're crazy, there is some difference somewhere. Maybe........it has to do with Listening and Hearing and Felling the music? Like the difference between MIDI files, and live? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: GUEST,thomas the rhymer Date: 04 Mar 00 - 09:53 PM the one and the other; they both did their best.......... they all want a lover, they each need some rest.......... the player unnoticed, still was amazed................... musicians seek courtship, their wooings half crazed...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Troll Date: 04 Mar 00 - 10:43 PM Meebo--Sounds to me like you have both feet on the ground and a pretty good idea of where you're going. You are right that sometimes we have to let go of our dreams but I think that everyone needs a dream or two lurking somewhere in the background to keep them from becoming robots. So give up one and find another. troll Spaw, I think the kid is growing up. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Mbo Date: 04 Mar 00 - 10:49 PM "The dreamer... The unwoken fool... In dreams, no pain will kiss the brow The love of ages fills the head The days that linger there In prey of emptiness, of burned out dreams The minutes calling through the years The universal dreamer rises up above his earthly burden Journey to the dead of night High on a hill In Eldorado." --Mbo
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Little Neophyte Date: 04 Mar 00 - 11:29 PM Loved your posting McGrath, it gives people like me who play music hope. But I do think your 'would disagree' was a Freudian slip. Sophocleese made a good point about 'being hard on herself' Michael K., I get the feeling from your postings that you are also somewhat hard on yourself when it comes to your expectations on your own music. Homeless, I liked your thought on 'playing something that sounds like music'. I guess it has to do with the unspoken being in 'The Zone'. Letting go of thinking and just 'Being' in the music. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: selby Date: 05 Mar 00 - 07:52 AM Listening to my eldest son prepare for his grade 3 violin exam perhaps sums up the difference. When he is playing his prefered music (folk)he plays with enjoyment and energy. When practicing for his grades he feels constrained by what his teacher wants and how he thinks the composer wrote it and consequently does not play with enjoyment and energy,so much so that I can hear the difference. Keith |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Callie Date: 05 Mar 00 - 08:33 AM In my books, a musician is a music addict, usually multi-genre or at least open minded to all styles. Someone who would just as much pick up a tennis racquet as pick up a guitar is not a musician. However, I would include in this special family of 'musicians' those people who are compulsive listeners/collectors but have never learnt to play an instrument. It's a most wonderful thing when you mention a song or a piece of music which you love or which helps define you, and although you thought it was obscure, someone else in the room knows and loves it. --Callie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Willie-O Date: 05 Mar 00 - 10:03 AM Musicians might or might not be able to play many different styles or instruments--but I think that when you achieve musicianship it means that you are playing (and respecting) the music, and the instrument, however fine, is just a conduit between the player and the expression of the music. Two ways to delay the achievement of musicianship are:
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: The Shambles Date: 05 Mar 00 - 10:04 AM We appear to down to 'lumpers and splitters' again.
Anyone who makes music, is a musician. It really has to be that. The question of personal taste then comes in to say whether YOU like the sound that is being produced or not. There are all levels of competence in every field and unfortunately all levels of snobbery too. The harder you work (and paying your dues) hopefully, should make you a better musician but it does not always follow that it does. Some times it just results in making you a bitter musician?
If some wish to reserve the term, musician for professional, driven and non-folkie,'due payers', regardless of their creativity or feeling, then so be it. It will be their loss, the rest will still be there making music, whatever you choose to call them, thank goodness. Musicians (and their egos) are just a necessary evil, it is the music that matters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Mar 00 - 10:30 AM Shambles - You're dead right again.By which I mean, we're in agreement.
The Musicians of Bremen were an ass, a dog, a cat and a cock.That's the kind of company I feel at home in.
There's people who play instruments. There's people who make music. You might be great at making music and not too good at playing an instrument. It's quite often the other way round. If you're lucky, and we're lucky, you might be good at both. You're a musician in any case. (I suppose if you combine being no good at playing an instrument and being no good at making music you might be termed no musician. But I'd calll you a so-far-unsuccesful musician. Possibly,let us hope, a struggling musician.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 05 Mar 00 - 10:46 AM It is something so simple that escapes us all.... this self-determination stuff misses its call.... though intent and addiction can overcome stall.... the finals are in when the listeners enthrall.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Rick Fielding Date: 05 Mar 00 - 11:13 AM Hmmmm, interesting topic. Of course it's been discussed before, but I'm glad to hear what some newer cats think about it. Michael K says I would understand his point of view. That's true, I do, but I'm not sure I'm in total agreement. First of all technical competancy NEVER MEANS ONLY PLAYING A LOT OF NOTES. Two of the greatest musicians who ever lived were Hank Williams and Leadbelly. Those that heard him up close say that Hank was a terrific swinging rhythm guitar player, who could just lock in the feel of a song. I believe them, and yet he probably didn't know more than a dozen chords. Leadbelly was so original with his thumb-picked bass lines, that I'm still amazed when I hear a song of his today. He just DROVE that guitar...and yet he made tons of mistakes and played chords that a jazz or pop musician would say were totally wrong!
Commitment IS a very important ingredient to being a repected musician in my book. NOT commitment to being technically proficient, but commitment to learning about those who've gone before. I warn you, I'm pretty narrow in this, but if someone plays bluegrass guitar (at any level) and has no interest in Charlie Monroe, Alton Delmore, Lester Flatt, Riley Puckett, Carter Stanley etc. but they only listen to Tony Rice or Ricky Skaggs or current hot-shots, they're taking a superficial approach in my book. I truly believe you must try to understand where the music "was" before you can call yourself a "commited musician. One of the problems I find, with my attitude, is that music is a wonderful social tool as well, and lotsa commitment is NOT needed if your goal is to have a good time, impress that gorgeous girl, or get rid of the blues by picking a tune in your basement. But to be a "musician" I think involves more. I can build a book case,(or a banjo case) but I'd never call myself a cabinet maker, or even a carpenter. I think you'd find that those folks would expect the same kind of commitment, that I'd look for in someone wanting to become a "musician". Rick Oh, I'm reading a fascinating book on the Martin Company, and one of the interesting things is that CF Martin left Germany in the 1800s because the Violin Makers Guild tried to prevent him from building guitars because he was seen as a mere "cabinet maker". He showed them!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Peter T. Date: 05 Mar 00 - 11:43 AM Following Rick is always a bad move, as many people after him on a bill would probably attest, but the topic is interesting to a non-musician! I know something about two related businesses, theatre and poetry, and in both those cases, it is a combination of at least 3 of the things already mentioned by people above. Thousands of people write poetry, but only a very few are poets; same is true of acting -- very few real actors out there. It requires reverence for the materials (the craft, the voice, vowels, the consonants), reverence for the traditions you are hopefully building on (Rick's history) not as traditions, but as resources, previous struggles with the stuff by people who were at least as talented as you are. Third, that incredible driving committment that shows up in the product -- the total presence of everything you are, in the work, without holding back. A fourth thing, which may be what a lot of people envy, and which is usually a product of the other three, is a kind of relaxation that comes with the ability -- born of infinite effort -- not to be submerged by the myriad demands of your art. It is that easy spaciousness that drives all us non-everythings crazy!!!! yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: dick greenhaus Date: 05 Mar 00 - 11:49 AM My $.02- Any art form breaks down into two areas: the art and the craft. Or, knowing what to do, and being able to do it. There is often only a tenuous relationship between the two, but when the performer has both, the results can be wonderful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Little Neophyte Date: 05 Mar 00 - 03:17 PM Reading Rick's posting makes me reflect on my own process of wanting to become a better musician. I am so dead serious about learning the banjo that it has gradually taken priority over many other things in my life. As I strengthen my music as being a priority, I see my progress and the musician in me materialize. It really isn't that complicated. Learn your instrument. Understand the musicians that have set the foundation. Build from there by creating your own style based on those who have contributed before you. Maybe others see it differently. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Lady McMoo Date: 05 Mar 00 - 03:50 PM Does it really matter one way or another? We all love to construct boxes and categories to put things in but really it's a continuum of skill and feeling. All the best mcmoo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Rick Fielding Date: 05 Mar 00 - 04:49 PM McMoo has a good point. "Does it all matter anyway"? NO...it doesn't. Does it matter if I know anything about the car I drive (other than it says "Ford" and if I turn the key and it goes), Does it matter (in the slightest) if I spend over an hour staring at Leadbelly's guitar in the Rock and Roll hall of Fame in Cleveland? For that matter does it matter if I read two papers a day, know a huge amount of baseball trivia, or talk to people on Mudcat when I get the time? Not really. Since I have the mechanical skills to play music, and 99% of my audiences wouldn't care a whit whether I'd studied Riley Puckett's right-hand styles or not, none of the "research" is actually neccessary. But it's FUN! Once in a blue moon (til I found Mudcat) I'd run into someone who could REALLY talk REAL folk music, and boy, did I enjoy that person's company. Same with baseball, or British history, or American politics. So even the question about differences between "musicians and folks who play music" has no REAL importance.....just like the other things....it's fun to discuss. Actually I've been able to meet folks here who share my passion in a number of areas...not just music. My problem is that the things that ARE of crucial importance ie: tax returns, furnaces, plumbing repairs, and gettin' rid of weeds don't interest me in the least.....and it shows! Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: GUEST,thomas the rhymer Date: 05 Mar 00 - 05:43 PM thank goodness the honesty that sets us all free.... instills a warm feeling in/from friends we can't see.... with studio musicians can we all agree?.... that the music becomes,... when we play the CD.... but my problem with that is too complex to know.... acoustical plug-ins with no audient show.... so the ones who make up the successful lot can play for themselves, for an audience,...not! and so truly I say to you with credence and craft that the part found as missing, is seldom for asked production allows us to sound entertaining without ever knowing who's patience we're straining! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Callie Date: 05 Mar 00 - 06:01 PM Thnaks loads Rick. I feel better. I've ignored mundane things like that for so long though, that I feel as though the wave is about to break over my head!! BUT at least I can say that if I HAD paid proper attention to tax return, plumbing etc, the choral arrangements that I have done wouldn't have been, and the songs I have learnt would still be in that "one day I'll learn these" folder. --Callie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Bill D Date: 05 Mar 00 - 07:12 PM I have posted before on this issue, after having discussions with my wife, Ferrara, about why I don't practice harder, dont learn more songs, and dont fret about my public performances.....and I decided that I simply am NOY a musician, but ONLY a guy who really likes the music and plays it a bit...My wife used the phrase "fire in the belly" to describe those who MUST make music, and she, bless her, IS one...(she is singing in the kitcheb as I type this...she just finished "Lass of Glenshee", and is now doing.."Banks and Braes of Bonnie Doon")........ There are those who have the "fire in the belly" but never do too well, but usually it makes a big difference. And yes, I know talented people who are very nice to hear, even though they don't work hard at it...so, in my opinion, there needs to be a way to for ME to explain what the difference is between Ferrara and myself...and calling her a 'musician' and myself simply a 'guy who sometimes plays and sings and knows a bit about the music' seems to do it for me... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Marion Date: 05 Mar 00 - 07:30 PM A musician is somebody who is possessed by a Muse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Mbo Date: 05 Mar 00 - 08:01 PM MARION YOU'RE BACK!!!! Boy, have we missed you! Welcome home! --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: jeffp Date: 06 Mar 00 - 09:15 AM I think a true musician is one who is able to use the music as a conduit to link souls. Someone who can make the audience feel their feelings by what they play and how they play it. The technical skills to facilitate this communication can be learned, but I have heard unschooled singers and players that can touch my heart and soul far better than some very technically proficient players. jeffp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Biskit Date: 06 Mar 00 - 10:57 AM I once knew two brothers from southren California they were both excellant technical guitarists by thechnical I ,mean they coyld re-create the noise that sounded like the melody of a song, when I had the oppurtunity to sit in with them, quite often one or both of them would stop and listen to me play. I sippose while not being as technically adept as them I put into the music some thing that they as yet could not.....that something was heart and soul, and that comes with milage. This is not my ego talking this is simply the way that they explained it to me. I hope this helps in answering your questions about the difference between a musician and one who plays......... -Biskit- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Mbo Date: 06 Mar 00 - 11:18 AM OK...so maybe I am a musician! I don't know if anyone else feels like this, but...listening to music, especially new stuff, is for me like Christmas morning. Did you ever hear a new song--your mouth drops open, and your eyebrows raise in anticipation of what will come next? Then you let out a monstrous sign when what you expect comes..you close your eyes and drift away...? Ok, so maybe I'm weird. When I first heard "A' Ghrian" from Shaun Davey's new work "The Pilgrim" about St.Columcille, I got this feeling. As each musical phrase developed, the more excited I got...and as the singing left off, I could feel my blood pressure going up as a Jerry Goldsmith-esque orchestral swell started...giving way to the familiar sound of a pipe band drone...the hair on my neck stands up...and then BOOM! The pipes come in full force playing the tune, with orchestra, full mighty chorus, and a rocking drum set! I was nearly knocked over backwards! Anyone EVER get like this? I also usually receive weird looks from family members when listening to songs on the radio, I'm going...Oooh, I like that shift into minor...YES! Major seventh chord!...yes, love that electric guitar work....oooh ending on a major chord to signify hope! Woohaa! Aye yi yi...am I a musician or a absolute craze? --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: GUEST,Pete Peterson (at work) Date: 06 Mar 00 - 11:39 AM Marion said it better than I could say it. Wow. I agree. Riffing off from that--and speaking personally, sometimes I do get possessed; if it happens, it is usually while playing with other good musicians; often not. Paying your dues consists in large part of encouraging other musicians-- laying down a good strong steady bass rhythm with the proper chords, so the melody instruments can play. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Bert Date: 06 Mar 00 - 11:41 AM I think Caitrin said it all 'you put your heart into it' Hi Ana, as I am a singer but NOT a musician your question really stood out. I don't think that the voice is really the same as an instrument although it can be used as such. For me singing comes without much effort but playing an instrument is very difficult. A few chords on the guitar is about my limit and I don't always get them right. But I sing a lot and never think of it as 'practicing'. Do instrumentalists do the same? Does it come as easily to them as singing does to me? Bert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Homeless Date: 06 Mar 00 - 11:50 AM Bert - I could say the same as you, but with "play" and "sing" switch. Using only my voice, I can't carry a tune. But I'll pick up an instrument for the first time and pick out simple tunes. When I first started messing with the banjo, I'd do an alternating thumb roll on a C-G-D-G chord progression for literally hours (2-3 at a time) and enjoy the hell out of it. I wasn't practicing - I was having fun. One evening after work one of my co-workers picked up a guitar and started noodling counter rhythms over what I was doing. After about 20 minutes we finally quit, and much to my surprise our corporate CEO had been listening, and applauded! Unfortunately, that's the only time I've ever gotten to play with anyone else. All of my music is solo, with myself as the audience. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Mark Clark Date: 06 Mar 00 - 02:37 PM Most of the people I've played music with over the years make a distinction similir to the one Homeless used to begin this thread. The distinction they make isn't one of "heart" or dedication or remuneration and I'm not sure how to define the difference except to relate some of what they told me. If a person can play "Cripple Creek," for example, but not "Old Joe Clark" then they haven't learned to play their instruments, they've only learned to play certain tunes on them. "Players" can jump into a session and immediately play along and contribute on tunes they've never heard. They can "sing" using their instruments just as a vocalist can with his or her voice. This ability is, I think, independent of issues like originality, taste, soul and technical virtuosity. The great wonder and joy of music---and folk music especially---is that most people can learn to play some tunes on some instruments, even if they don't become "players." I don't know whether the distinction determines whether or not a person is a musician but there is definately a difference. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Peter T. Date: 06 Mar 00 - 02:56 PM Nice to hear about Ferrara, Bill. I was wondering how she was doing (she seems to have wisely cut back on her time here, and is singing instead!!!!!!). Tell her hi. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Froodo Date: 06 Mar 00 - 03:18 PM Someone that creates and plays music is a musician. They may or may not be a professional musician, they may or may not be a good musician, they may or may not be a dedicated musician, but if they make music they're a musician.
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: wysiwyg Date: 06 Mar 00 - 04:19 PM Tried this concept out today. Sometimes I actually think I'm a musician, sometimes I'm playing music/playing with instruments. What I came up with, after a couple of hours with the keyboad, was that sometimes I am playing for fun, and sometimes I'm playing for keeps. In one case, the playfulnes is disposable, just for that moment. In the other, if it were recorded, I'd save the tape and maybe distribute it. Both kinds of playing can be quite serious as well as intensely fun, but one is more ruthlessly focused-- a "keeper." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: MK Date: 06 Mar 00 - 04:44 PM Frodo, you sure you don't work for the American Federation of Musicians? They have the same criterion as you, as far as accepting new members and taking their dues money. *BG* (kidding) Just because someone might be a ''union'' musician does not mean they're any good at what they do. I really think it comes down to standards. To include as many people as possible under the category of musician implies a very loose standard of what constitutes a real musician --but alienates far fewer people. Then again who sets and defines the standards? Peers? Our friends? Our relatives? Ourselves? It's kind of a circular argument.
As an analogy, if I write:
Roses are red ..does this make me a poet? In the loosest standard imaginable, yeah okay...but not really. Do you know what I mean? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: The Shambles Date: 06 Mar 00 - 05:45 PM I know exactly what you mean, I just don't agree. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: John in Brisbane Date: 07 Mar 00 - 12:14 AM I have a couple of thoughts to share - just thoughts. A musician is someone who applies his/her craft so that OTHERS can share the pleasure. The commitment here is not in practice, technical wizardty or internal drive but simply the willingness to allow othres to share your 'performance'. My definition of performance is based upon whether or not you feel emotionally exposed - if you feel exposed it's a performance. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 07 Mar 00 - 10:09 AM J-in-B: I like the distinction you make. I guess that makes me a musician, because I've always had the desire to be a performer. I like to play and sing for myself and by myself, but it's always with the idea that this is preparation for the real thing, entertaining others. I never feel so alive as when playing and singing for others. In other words, I'm a ham! Dave Oesterreich
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Biskit Date: 07 Mar 00 - 10:35 AM Well Dave a ham by any other name..... Yeah I'll play and sing `till after the last ones gone home, then I'll do a few more just in case we have any stragglers, I love making music and I'll love it `till the day I die. Mbo, my brother you are one,..or maybe we're both just weird,but I prefer to think of us as musicians, who are by definition,...weird. oh and that hair raising up thingy,well thats what made me sure about you. -Biskit- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Rick Fielding Date: 07 Mar 00 - 10:41 AM OK, admittedly this is loose, and perhaps not well thought out, but it seems to me that: Country music (and musicians) are evaluated primarily by their listening audience. Classical music, by several generations of listeners, critics, and on the basis of early compositions by the artist. Jazz, by other players and print critics. Rock, by a young and generally more emotional audience. Folk, often by friends, other folkies, family, and in general by people who value "inclusiveness". I think "we" get off pretty easily as far as criticism goes. A nervous, shy and possibly socially inept person can get on an open stage, and if they can make it through a piece without self-destructing, will often get huge positive strokes ("just for the effort"). I can think of no other music form where this would be the "rule" rather than the rarest exception. Rick
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Mark Clark Date: 07 Mar 00 - 11:47 AM Rick, I think you've really put your finger on it. The whole idea of folk music is that it is homemade and not intended to meet the criteria we place on other genres. From my point of view, that accounts for much of its appeal. A jazz musician is someone who's abilities and sensibilities meet the demands of jazz. A folk musician, by the same token, is someone who's abilities and sensibilities meet the demands of folk music. The expecations we have of each are drastically different. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Froodo Date: 07 Mar 00 - 12:43 PM What's the difference between a gardener and one who plants gardens? The way I see it is that a musician is one who plays music. One who plays a musical instrument is an "ist"...if one plays guitar one is a guitarist, same for vocalists, bassists, so on and so forth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Homeless Date: 07 Mar 00 - 01:18 PM Froodo - Can you give me the definition of "play" and "music" then? Hand me a guitar and I can pick out a simple melody - one note at a time. I also know half a dozen simple chords and go thru the progressions of a few simple songs (Heart of Gold, Greensleeves) almost up to speed. Throw a new chord progression at me that I haven't tried yet and I'd have to practice it for a while before I could do it. Does any of this qualify as "playing" or "music"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 07 Mar 00 - 01:55 PM are we just happy, or are we the best?........ do we perform well under the test?........ do we enjoy a tune, or do it in jest?........ or by the sweet muses are we now blessed?. The showman will show off a glittering style........ and sexier singers we love them to smile........... but musicians may be the ones who beguile........ with tune, vioce and instrument, meaning...the mile. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Froodo Date: 07 Mar 00 - 02:17 PM Homeless, I'd say you are playing music. Perhaps slowly and unskillfully, but you are creating music...hence a musician at that time...but maybe not by trade. Are you suggesting that the term musician should be defined based on skill level? If so, where is the line drawn. When is one skillful enough? What criteria is being used to separate unskilled "players" and qulaified "musicians?" Does on acheive the musician level by incorporating diminished 7th cords? At the very basic level, I have given my definition of what musician means. Perhaps at this time I should elaborate a bit more to include the following: Musicians are people that are essentially addicted to creating and playing music. Music is a top priority. Musicians without music can't survive. Whereas, hockey players without music (given that they're not musicians) can survive. I think that this addition to my original definition includes the dedication needed and the assumption that the person at hand can actually play their instrument (as well as own it) and has and continues to invest the time and creativity needed to reach a level of satisfaction.
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Homeless Date: 07 Mar 00 - 02:50 PM Having read over this thread the past few days (and really enjoyed seeing all the different viewpoints) I can see I made a major mistake. I used a couple of terms where I should have used definitions. My problem was that I was trying to figure out the definition. So. If you look at my post of 04-Mar-00 - 07:40 PM, ignore all the references to "musician" and substitute "person" and see where I give examples of what I am trying to define, maybe someone can give me a definition to fit the examples, or even (gasp) a term? Takers? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Peter T. Date: 07 Mar 00 - 03:04 PM I think Froodo is right: everyone I have ever known who was a real X had to do it or die. Death may take a long time, however, When they weren't doing X, it was like they were slowly asphyxiating in a room where everyone else was happily breathing; or they were disoriented, like someone searching for the North Pole who had mistakenly turned left in Florida. This often makes them disconcerting company....yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 07 Mar 00 - 09:50 PM There is a tendency to think of music as either a rarifed occupation given to certain so-called talented people or as a commodity. This gives rise to questions such as these. Then there is the problem that some consider what they like as music and what they don't like as noise. For example, is Barry Manilow a musician? I think he is but that he wouldn't pass muster amoung many folkies I don't think. Then, is Dock Boggs a musician? I think so but so many of my fellow musical friends would take exception to that. Then there is the whole thing about being a "trained" musician. Does knowing how to write five-part convertable counterpoint make one a musician? Probably. I think that the key to being a musician is probably communication although here it gets sticky, too. What communicates to one person may not be to another. One of the interesting aspects of people who I would consider to be musical or musicians is their ability to appreciate all forms of music to some extent. They have the ability to find the music in what others may characterize as noise. I think you can appreciate music without even liking it that much. For example, I admire Jimmy Page and Arnold Schoenberg for their musical ability but I don't really care for their music. Nor do I like Wagner all that much but I'm not going to say that he was not a great musician. As Twain said, his music is better than it sounds. The love of music to me is characterized by a kind of open-ness and appreciation for all kinds of music. I think of Charlie Parker's statement, "Let's don't call it jazz, let's call it music." Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: The Shambles Date: 08 Mar 00 - 02:59 AM Gosh, that Shania hasn't been around very long and she is being quoted here, already!
Thank you Frank, good common sense as usual. "The love of music" is the key, I think. I see so many people trying so hard to be 'musicians' rather than desperate to make music.
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Ferrara Date: 08 Mar 00 - 09:31 AM This is a nice thread. Bill mentioned it, so thought I'd check it out. Everyone's taking a nece relaxed approach. Lots of room to disagree. The trouble is that there's no vocabulary for what Homeless was trying to describe. The word "musician" depends on the context. The fellow who comes to a song circle, picks a song out of RUS, stumbles over the words and fails even to approximate the tune, is being a musician for those few minutes, but probably will never be a Musician. I've always loved to draw and paint, but until recently wouldn't have called myself an artist. But I can stop drawing and painting. I did, for years, while my kid was small. *But I can't stop singing.* There are long periods when I don't play an instrument, but none, I think, when I don't sing. After my heart transplant, they wanted me to blow hard for 30 minutes a day into an ugly plastic tube to get my lungs working again. I said the hell with that, I'll sing. So in this tiny thready voice, I sang the most challenging songs I could manage. I met their "target lung power value" or whatever in two or three days. When I was a kid, people looked at me funny sometimes when they noticed I was singing as I walked to school. In Italy, it was marvelous -- I frequently passed people singing on the street, or heard beautiful singing as I passed by an open window. Are these people musicians? Just depends on the context, I guess. Boy, I do blather on when I finally get on-line, huh? But want to mention some things about practice and musicianship. Osmium mentioned timing and phrasing. I never understood them until I took a workshop with Jerry Epstein. Now I believe that for me, they make the difference between just singing, and really getting into the song. I've always like to practice, even when I didn't have anyone to sing or play for. I'd take a song and do it over and over, enjoying the development of an accompaniment that pleased me, and enjoying the increase in vocal mastery. Now, I try phrases over and over, listening to the effect of different phrasing. In one sense, yes, I think of this as developing my "musicianship." It doesn't make the songs mechanical at all; quite the opposite. When I perform, the song just sings itself. But the total effect of all those other times when I *did* think about what I was doing, is to improve the musicianship tremendously. By the way, stage fright usually gets me when I try to play an instrument in public. My fingers shake! -- But I keep doing it, stubbornly, and someday it's going to sound as nice as it does when I'm alone in my living room. Time to shut up for a while. See ya, - Rita Ferrara |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: GUEST,Botticelli's Niece Date: 08 Mar 00 - 09:25 PM A musician is someone who is always learning, developing, and perfecting their craft. A musician plays music because they HAVE to. Because their life wouldn't be whole without it. They are musicians because they were chosen, not because they chose to BE a musician. I teach music. It's the only thing I ever wanted to do. It's my job yet I have never worked a day in my life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: sophocleese Date: 08 Mar 00 - 10:52 PM I think that I make distinctions between performers, musicians and music lovers. Performers love to perform, they want to be in front of people. Musicians love music but aren't necessarily driven to perform it widely, though they do like to play with other musicians. Music lovers love music in many or all of its forms but may or may not be good at reproducing it. None of these categories is exclusive and most people are blends of all three. Working with these definitions I would say that a musician is someone with technical expertise and knowledge and an inner drive to always be making and creating music. Somebody who plays tunes on the instrument is probably more of a performer or music lover than a musician. At the end of the day whatever your driving force is you will usually end up being a better at making music for it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Ferrara Date: 09 Mar 00 - 08:16 AM Sophocleese, I loved your suggestion re performers, musicians and music lovers. Well said. For some reason, this thread kept coming back into my mind all day yesterday. I kept looking for words for, how do you describe the rare people who are all three? The ones who have an affinity for music that goes beyond even talent? Maybe if I describe Lisa Null, who is Charlie Baum's S.O.... First time I met Lisa, I think was an Open Sing, but lots of people knew her so it turned into a singing party and went on far into the night. I remember thinking, "This lady has the kind of voice I would have chosen for myself if anybody had given me a choice." -- She just had this warm, rich full voice, and she was so expressive and in tune with every song, and her guitar playing supported her singing as if they were made to go with each other. She writes songs, too, such as "I'm Going Back to Georgia," which was requested once in a Mudcat thread. And she taught American trad music at Georgetown University. And she founded Green Linnet records, and has performed in England and in Israel and I-don't-know-where-else. And she is a wonderfully effective singing teacher, so gifted in her words and her attempts to find just the right way to help each person that it feels as if you're in the presence of genius. I always feel, when I see her doing a singing workshop, that she's a Living National Treasure, as the Japanese say. I know a few other people who have this kind of living, holistic talent. They're a gift to the world far as I'm concerned. And I think there are lots of people who have a portion of their gifts, and I think it's having and expressing these gifts, in whatever measure you were born with them, that makes a musician. It's more than making music and it's independent of the kind of music you make. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Fortunato Date: 09 Mar 00 - 08:56 AM Ken Kesey once asked the president of a California Hell's Angels Chapter how they recruited new members. The Angel said: "We don't recruit them, we RECOGNIZE them."
One trouble with calling some folks musicians and some not is that it's a lot like establishing criteria for who is a Christian and who is not. It ennobles or enlightens no one. IMHOP, it's manure. Fortunato
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Peter T. Date: 09 Mar 00 - 09:26 AM Another interesting element someone mentioned to me in passing yesterday is people who are entranced by the sound of music, by which I mean (or the person I was talking to meant) just the significant quality of shifts in tone, timbre, chordal patterns, etc. It is like painters obsessed with different qualities of light and shade, or poets with slight shifts in word patterns. I notice (as a non-musician) that I can become intrigued with a sound shift (from major to minor, for instance); but it doesn't turn into the kind of thing a composer would wrestle with. I can't imagine (as Mbo seems to imagine) spending time on slight musical changes -- which aren't slight to a musician!!! I wonder if this is partly why musical people seem to be able to follow chord changes to accompany others (I know it is a skill you can pick up, so maybe it doesn't count as intrinsic).....yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: MMario Date: 09 Mar 00 - 09:38 AM Rita - I know what you mean when you say *I can't stop singing*. About 3 1/2 years ago I had my tonsils out --and was singing before I could swallow comfortably. In fact, I was singing before I could talk comfortably. I don't know how to define musician, but singer or instumentalist, I often prefer to hear someone who may have less technical skill - because they put true emotion into the performance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: sophocleese Date: 09 Mar 00 - 08:28 PM I don't think that the level of technical skill is inversely proportional to the level of emotion in the performance. Some people like to communicate however they can and others like to play around with a particular language of communication. A greater facility in the language will enable you to communicate with more precision and accuracy if that's what you want to do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Rick Fielding Date: 09 Mar 00 - 08:55 PM Technical skill can often be tricky to recognize. On several occasions I complimented Sandy on his guitar accompaniements and naturally he "pooh poohed" and grumbled about not knowing anything on the instrument....but he's wrong....and I'm right. He is a very skilled accompanist. Was I predjudiced because of his lifetime investment in folk music? Perhaps, but I've known lots of others with great experience who haven't learned a durn thing. Excuse me, gotta go lay some technical skills on my next student. Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Marion Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:00 PM I am refreshing this just because it was on my mind. Marion |
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