How to obtain copyright permission?

Subject: How to obtain copyright permission?
From: GUEST,Merrilee Overdone
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 01:25 PM

I am organizing a Renaissance Festival singing group. We want to perform some songs that we know are copyrighted but I do not know where to begin to obtain permission. The songs are: Fiddler's Green Scotsman's Kilt Anne Bolyne Come By the Hills Never Give All the Heart (REcitation from Chietain's Tears of Stone album) Lullaby (REcitation from Lorenna Mckinnett's Elemantal) Mummer's Dance Ballybay Carreighfurgus Fisherman's Lament Any suggestions on how to do this?

Subject: RE: How to obtain copyright permission?
From: GUEST,T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 01:38 PM

In my strictly private this-is-not-legal-advice opinion, it is the festival's organizers, or the owners of the place where you are performing, who are usually responsible for buying ASCAP and BMI licenses. I think usually your group wouldn't itself need to license the performances. But much may depend on particular circumstances.

One possible approach: have a repertoire of public domain music ready. Then if you perform in a place or at an event which has no licenses (obviously you'll need to check beforehand), you can still sing without bringing down the thundering wrath of the copyright cops on yourself or anyone else. If they have licenses, so much the better: then you can perform anything in the catalog that they have licensed, as well as the PD stuff.

T.

Subject: RE: How to obtain copyright permission?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 01:46 PM

If you are learning these off albums or CD's, the copyright credits for each song should be listed on them, likewise on sheet music. you would contact the copyright holder, who would either deal with you or refer you to an agent, or ignore you.

Subject: RE: How to obtain copyright permission?
From: GUEST,Merrilee Overdone
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 01:54 PM

The owners have informed us that it our responsibility and that we are not to perform any material that is copyrighted without obtaining permission so we have a good list of PD but we would really like to do some of these other songs. You can add Puff the Magic Dragon to the list as well. What catalog are you referring to? Can it be reviewed on line? We have songs like Good King Wensaslas that you would think is PD but I suspect it isn't. How do you know?

Subject: RE: How to obtain copyright permission?
From: GUEST,Merrilee Overdone
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 02:16 PM

We are getting these from many different sources. Many are listed as Traditional on the CD and that is all. Some have credits but how do you get the addresses for these people. Puff the Magic Dragon is a good example. You get about 5 listings for Peter Yarrow in an address search. More than that for Andy Stewart. How do you contact Lorenna McKennitt? How do you know who the copyright holder is?

Subject: RE: How to obtain copyright permission?
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 02:20 PM

Something to think about: Maybe the owners are doing the best they can--or on the other hand, maybe they are unfairly or unreasonably passing the buck ?

In your place, I might find out who controls the copyright to the words and to the music of a song. (These might be two different entities). The sleeve notes might have this information, as MMario says, or the ASCAP and BMI web sites, or the author/performers' web sites. If the rightsholder is a music publisher, it might have a web site which gives a phone number for a permissions department. I might then call that number and explain my situation and see what price they set. If the price were too high, I would skip that piece, or maybe get a lawyer with copyright and music licensing experience who might be able to talk them down to a lower price. I would then repeat the process for each song on the list.

The melody to "Good King Wenceslas" is called tempus adest floridum and is in the public domain unless I am very much mistaken. I don't know about the words. The Oxford Book of Carols (the old one, not the new one) might have author and composer information for GKW.

T.

Subject: RE: How to obtain copyright permission?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 02:23 PM

Merrilee - don't get confused between the copyrights of SONGS and the copyrights of ARRANGEMENTS and/or PERFORMANCES.

however, legally speaking;(with all due disclaimers about I am not a lawyer etc....), t-in-oki is correct and the management of your faire is wrong, but that won't do you any good keeping the job....

and in some cases, the tunes are copyright, but the lyrics are not, or vice versa......

Subject: RE: How to obtain copyright permission?
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 02:39 PM

For Puff the Magic Firedrake you might try

[e-mail]

I don't know if they'll answer, I don't know if they (rather than Warner Brothers or someone) control the copyrights. But it's a place to start.

T.

Subject: RE: How to obtain copyright permission?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 02:48 PM

if the lyrics and tune are listed as "Trad" and the cd is by a reputable company I strongly suspect you do not have to worry about copyright. Though you may want to make your own arrangments rather then trying to imitate the CD.

and as a bit of thread creep....what ren-faire? (yes, I am a ren-geek and addicted to faire. and the mudcat. and singing. )

MMario

Subject: RE: How to obtain copyright permission?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 02:55 PM

Hi, Merrilee (nice name) - click here to get to www.ascap.com, and here for www.bmi.com - ASCAP licenses more music, but BMI is the one more likely to handle folk and pseudo-folk stuff. Both pages have links to databases that list the songs they license. Note that although somebody may claim a copyright on a song, it may still be a traditional song and their claims to rights for the song may be based only on their arrangement.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: How to obtain copyright permission?
From: GUEST,Merrilee Overdone
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 05:01 PM

You flatter us to think that we even come close to the arrangements that we listen to. We portray a bawdy band of villagers who sing for our supper. Unfortunately, we are hungry most of the time. It is an accomplishment at this point to even stay close to a recognizable melody.

I don't think the festival management would be happy if I revealed which festival we are working for since we do not want to draw undue attention to this issue so I beg your forgiveness and assure you all that your advice is very much appreciated, especially the links. I will be back with a follow up report as soon as I have done more homework.

God ye den, Merrilee

Subject: RE: How to obtain copyright permission?
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 06:51 PM

A Ren-Faire that does NOT want publicity??HUH?

Subject: RE: How to obtain copyright permission?
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 09 Mar 00 - 08:05 PM

I should clarify that my doubts the fair owners' music policy where precisely that: doubts, not certainties or pre-judgements. If the managers truly want to lay down a "PD-only" music policy, I heartily approve. I wish more venue owners would have such policies (among other things, it creates a niche for folk performers). But it has to be sincerely meant and consistently maintained. If a venue owner claims to have a PD-only policy, but I get a signal, on listening between the lines, that he is saying (wink-wink, nudge-nudge) that he actually WANTS copyrighted music but is pushing onto the performers effort and expense that he should be seeing to, then my reaction is somewhat less hearty.

T.

Subject: RE: How to obtain copyright permission?
From: GUEST,Merrilee
Date: 10 Mar 00 - 08:42 AM

They encourage all to perform PD music and DEMAND that WE ENSURE that anything we do is NOT copyrighted. If we desire to perform copyrighted material THEN it is our responsibility to obtain permission. We have some songs that REALLY work for us but are copyrighted. I want to find out what the cost is before I discard them from the set lists.

Good King Wenceslas is a great example. The melody is safe the lyrics are not. Our arrangement was spontaneous and really works for us. We would like to perform this song so I need to pursue permission if it is not cost prohibitive. Mummers Dance fits in this category as well. I just need to check our entire set list. Ballybay is an example of one that I had NO ideas was copyrighted until I began this research.

In our defense, a lot of the music we hear is from other performers and their CDs. Ballybay is listed as traditional on the one I listened to. In gathering printed lyrics I have found a writers name!

I will take time this weekend to go through our "safe" list and check it against the links. Thanks again.

Subject: RE: How to obtain copyright permission?
From: MMario
Date: 10 Mar 00 - 08:56 AM

Merrilee - believe it or not, some "traditional" songs can have known composers. And having a known composer does not mean they are not in the public domain.

Lyrics to GKW are copyrighted? Are you using a new translation or adaptation? Even in English this dates back a LONG way.

Subject: RE: How to obtain copyright permission?
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 10 Mar 00 - 09:06 AM

Merilee was just saying that the PD status of GKW lyrics hadn't yet been established to Merilee's satisfaction, not that they are under copyright. In fact I suspect they are PD, but I can't cite documentation for that assertion off the top of my head.

T.

Subject: RE: How to obtain copyright permission?
From: MMario
Date: 10 Mar 00 - 09:31 AM

"In 1853, John Mason Neale chose Wenceslas as the subject for a children's song to exemplify generosity. It quickly became a Christmas favorite, even though its words clearly indicate that Wenceslas 'looked out' on St. Stephen's Day, the day after Christmas. So Good King Wenceslas is actually a Boxing Day carol!"

yup, public domain....

Subject: RE: How to obtain copyright permission?
From: MMario
Date: 10 Mar 00 - 09:56 AM

COME BY THE HILLS

(C) C F C F C / C F C F G7 / C F C G7 / C F C F C

Oh, come by the hills to the land where fancy is free.

Words by Scottish television producer Gordon Smith and set to the traditional Irish air "Buchal an Eire."

I've sent an e-mail off to a gentleman who has this listed on his "public domain songs" page.....

Subject: RE: How to obtain copyright permission?
From: GUEST,Merrilee Overdone
Date: 10 Mar 00 - 10:46 AM

Come By the Hills will be the first one I investigate then. I went to the BMI site and they have all the information that I need to make my inquiry. The email link is not working properly so I will have to visit again or write up a fax to them. Thank you all for your advice and comments. I will follow up and let you know if I am successful.