Indian giver- meaning please?

Subject: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Noreen
Date: 30 Apr 00 - 05:58 PM

The phrase 'Indian giver' (or 'givers') has been puzzling me, and I hope Mudcatters might be able to enlighten me. I first came across it many years ago in a Richard Thompson song (A Heart needs a home) and assumed it was one of his own phrases of unknowable meaning! More recently it jumped out at me from a Chris While song sung by her daughter Kellie with the Albion Band. Finally I have seen an advert tonight for a group/band appearing locally called Indian Giver. Short of going to see them and ask them, I'm asking you.
*I have looked in Digitrad and Forum and found the phrase again in a song called 'Little River', suggesting a native American origin?*

Thanks

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Apr 00 - 06:11 PM

It's not Native American in origin, I think. It more accurately describes the white guys who signed treaties with Native Americans. An "indian giver" is someone who gives a gift, then later wants (demands) it back.

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Apr 00 - 06:12 PM

It used to mean that someone who gave a gift...then would take it back. I am not sure how it came to be connected with Native Americans, but I never hear it used anymore. I think most would find it offensive, unless it referred to how the US government has broken so many treaties etc.

Hope this helps. Interesting question.

kat

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Noreen
Date: 30 Apr 00 - 06:47 PM

Thanks, both, for such a rapid and useful reply- I'm amazed! Now for those other bits of Richard Thompson's lyrics...................!!

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: kendall
Date: 30 Apr 00 - 06:53 PM

I think you will find that it comes from indians dealing with whites alright, but, as I understand it, the indians had no concept of land ownership, any more than they, or we, could conceive of selling our mothers. They made deals with the whites, but, clearly they did not understand what the whites really had in mind.

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Sourdough
Date: 30 Apr 00 - 06:59 PM

My guess is that the phrase, "Indian giver" grew out of a cultural misunderstanding about what is a gift and how to respond. Understanding the responsibilities of gift giving and gift accepting are a constant problem when alien cultures meet. We take for granted our knowledge of the gift-giving practices of our own society, they are quite complex though, but when we are faced with a new society it is very easy to misunderstand generous gestures and the chances to make faux pas are legion.

(Settling back in his chair and lighting a pipe) Many years ago, I was on the Anatolian Desert in Turkey on my way to visit the purported site of ruins of the ancient city of Troy. At that time, very few people went there and the road was not yet paved. It was tough going on a motorcycle, blastoven hot and very dusty.

It was nearing midday when, several miles away, I saw a cloud of dust blowing in the hot wind. It reminded me of a scene, I think from Gone With the Wind", in which an army is shown moving across a dry and dusty landscape. Even though the dust cloud had reminded me of a military unit marching, I was very surprised when a squadron of cavalry galloped out from the middle of the cloud and came across the desert directly towards me.

Four cavalry officers on horseback with carbines and sidearms are pretty convincing in terms of fillng their requests which, luckily, one of them could repeat in French. They wanted to know where I was coming from, where I was going, what country's passport I was travelling on, that sort of thing. The fact that I was American and on a motorcycle registered in Switzerland was already suspicious. What I didn't know was that there was a great deal of instability in Turkey during this particular time. I could be forgiven for not knowing this since I could read no Turkish at all so even though this was in all of the newspapers I remained blissfully unaware of the concerns of the Turkish people and their government.

After a little bit of talking and a lot of smiling, all tension in the situation dissolved. In a clearly hospitable gesture, the officers asked me to follow them as they cantered back up the way they had come. They pulled up by the side of the road at a concrete cube about five feet high. Out of the cube were two quarter inch pipes, side by side, above a basin. The soldiers caught up to us and orders were barked at them. They stood proudly at attention and then began singing - for my benefit! I kept looking at the fountain and thinking, "These guys would sure as hell rather be drinking" but there was no sign of anything but unit pride.

When the song was over, they formed into two single lines. At the front, next to the basin, an officer stood with a watch. In twos, the soldiers advanced to the pipes. They each had what I guess was about one minute to drink and wash the dust off before they were moved on and replaced by the next pair of soldiers.

While this was going on, I was talking to the commanding officer. He reached into his tunic, pulled out a package of turkish cigarettes and offered me one. I accepted. He then took out what looked like a pearl handled Beretta but it was really a cigarette lighter. When he pulled the trigger, a flint inside struck a spark and a flame came out of the barrel. I commented appreciatively on what a fine lighter it was and suddenly the lighter was mine. There was nothing I could say to stop him from giving it to me. I had inadvertently triggered (so to speak) his culture's gift-giving. I figured that I had to come up with a gift to give in exchange that would be of equal worth (not too much or too little - either would be insulting). I had a carton of Marlboro cigarettes in a saddlebag so I brought that out and passed it to him. He was delighted and it was clear that I had gotten past this potential area for misunderstanding that might lead to hard feelings. It turned out to be a most memorable experience and I was left with the memnto of that lighter which is in the dsk in front of me as I write this.

There was one other thing I was thankful for. This same officer was riding a particularly fine chestnut stallion. I had been about to compliment him on his mount when something interrupted me - this was before the cigarette and lighter incident. I have often wondered what would have happened if I had gone ahead and said something innocent like, "That's a fine horse you have there." Would I have ended up trailing a horse across Asia Minor and back to Paris?

Sourdough (who does not have a horse - even today)

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Ely
Date: 30 Apr 00 - 06:59 PM

That's right, it's "Indian giver" in the sense of someone who gives TO Indians, not Indians who give (according to my American studies prof, who is Choctaw).

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Sourdough
Date: 30 Apr 00 - 07:02 PM

I think that Kendall's explanation of Indians not having any concept of "owning land" and then after "selling" the land expecting that they could have all the previous rights they had always had before, makes a great deal of sense as an explanation.

Sourdough

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: kendall
Date: 30 Apr 00 - 07:05 PM

that makes no sense..explain..

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Noreen
Date: 30 Apr 00 - 07:08 PM

Thanks, Sourdough, for the wonderful story, and Ely for the confirmation from primary sources. This Forum is fascinating.

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Sourdough
Date: 30 Apr 00 - 07:14 PM

Kendall,

If you were asking me to exlain, I actually thought I was amplifying on what you had said. I guess I wasn't very clear. Let me have another go at it.

If settlers traded gifts for land with an Indian tribe and the Indian tribe had no sense of what it means to buy and sell land there would certainly be conflict. The Eurpean society would consider that they had paid for the land and that the other party to the bargain, the Indians, by accepting the gifts, had sealed the bargain. The Europeans would feel as though they had clear title to the land.

Meanwhile, the Indians, having no concept of having sold something, would be glad to have the gifts but would not see why they would have to give up something that could not be sold anyway. They would continue to travel across it, hunt on it, build weirs in the streams, etc. From the whites' standpoint, the Indians were reneging on their bargain and taking back what they had just traded to the whites.

To me, that seems like a good hypothesis for the origin of "Indian Giver". Anyway, that's that I meant to say.

A slightly embarrassed Sourdough.

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: GUEST,Diane Marshall
Date: 30 Apr 00 - 07:33 PM

I'm a Pennsylvanian, growing up in the Laurel Mts. and having known Indian lore from childhood. And having been schooled in the TRUTH about the treaties that the white men made with the people of the area. Even as a child, I knew the term INDIAN GIVER was a terribly thing to be called by a playmate because it meant exactly this: the white man gives a gift THEN TAKES IT BACK. That has ALWAYS been the meaning and nothing else!

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Callie
Date: 30 Apr 00 - 11:37 PM

Fantastic story, Sourdough. Shame about the horse though.

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 01 May 00 - 01:14 AM

Diane, I have to respectfully disagree with you. I also grew up in Pennsylvania, a little farther east and a lot more urban, and I for one always understood--that is to say, assumed--that the phrase referred to some characteristic of Indians. The reason for that assumption was that there were so many other phrases (derogatory or not) relating to nationality or ethnicity, it seemed to fit right in. I don't think any of us thought about *why* Indians would give gifts back, any more than we thought about why Dutch people would split the costs of a date (or used two jump ropes, for that matter)--it was just part of our language. But none of us were sophisticated enough at six or seven to know how early white settlers had treated natives in North America -- nor, in the 1950s and 60s, were we likely to have been able to discover the truth even if we were interested.

Still, I appreciate your input and recognize that your truth was evidently different from mine. That's what makes life interesting. And welcome to the Mudcat. Pull up a cookie and stay awhile! (Join, that is -- it's free and fun!)

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 01 May 00 - 01:30 AM

Also, I think Sourdough's explanation makes a lot of sense in a historical context: to the settlers, it would have seemed that the Indians were trying to "take back" land they had "given" or "sold" to the whites, when in fact for the Indians such a gift, or sale, was incomprehensible, because the land was not owned by people. I think that could explain how the term came into use. I find it fascinating, Diane, how emphasizing a different aspect of the history gives the term a completely different (and reasonable) connotation for you.

Mark

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: kendall
Date: 01 May 00 - 08:11 AM

gottcha sourdough. we agree. As Henry Ford said "History is mostly bunk." I saw a Seminole indian on tv a while ago, and he explained the meaning of HISTORY.. HIS STORY. When you dont know the real truth, believe that which makes sense.

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: MMario
Date: 01 May 00 - 10:33 AM

found this re: "Indian Giver"

INDIAN GIVER – Charles Earle Funk, in "Heavens to Betsy," states: "…even back in colonial days an 'Indian gift' referred to the 'alleged custom among Indians,' according to the 'Handbook of American Indians' (1907) issued by the Smithsonian Institution, 'of expecting an equivalent for a gift or otherwise its return.' The same authority defines 'Indian giver' – 'A repentant giver.'…"

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: RichM
Date: 01 May 00 - 10:44 AM

From my own part-native background and from more knowledgeable native friends, I have always understood the term to mean that a native NA would occasionally take back the gift-if he felt he needed it. This relates to tradition among some tribes that goods are to be shared among the members of the tribe when need arises. The concept of private property was and is different from European traditions. Elijah Harper, who was an aboriginal Canadian member of Parliament, for instance has used his own funds-and he was never a rich man-to support directly the education of about 150 young aboriginal people.--Another definition of an "Indian giver" :)

Rich

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: MMario
Date: 01 May 00 - 10:55 AM

rich - that is more along the lines of what I was given to understand while growing up...and also that any derogatory connotations were due to WHITES/Europeans who did not understand anything other then their own culture...

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: GUEST, Threadie
Date: 01 May 00 - 11:16 AM

"So now he's in his ever after
With money to last all of his days
Oh but the price makes you shiver, fate's an Indian giver
She giveth and she taketh away"

Dream Street
©1990 John Gorka, Blues Palace Music
Taken from the album: Land of the bottom line: WD-1089

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: L R Mole
Date: 01 May 00 - 11:25 AM

Gawd, how interestin'. Buttonholing pedants here at the coll got me more confused than ever."Indian Giver" (1848)is defined as someone who wants the thing, given, back again.I had been told that it had to do with goods spread out on a blanket for trading, mistaken for presents at a potlatch, which term (1861) means either a ceremonial feast marked by the host's lavish distribution of gifts OR to give with the expectation of a gift in return. Neither seems to imply this snatching-back behavior. Room for all on the etymological path, though; it's a Charles Earle Funky broad way. (If not a Roy Earle Sierra Mod ray.)

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 01 May 00 - 12:34 PM

MMario seems to be closest to what I remember from elementary school explanations. (I actually remember what grade school teachers told me in the 50's? Scary stuff.)

I was told that it was native custom that when one was given a gift, the proper thing to do was to give a gift in return as a way of honouring the original donor and his gift.

It was the white man's perception of this custom that gave rise to the phrase as an epithet.

"white man's perception" = truth. Pfahh! Phooey!

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: john c
Date: 01 May 00 - 01:27 PM

This is a fascinating thread and great reading but I cant help feeling that, as both Richard and Linda Thompson were deeply involved in the Hindu religion at the time this was written, the answer might be more easily found in the traditional Indian teachings as opposed to the American Indian tradition.

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: MMario
Date: 01 May 00 - 02:17 PM

but....have you ever heard the phrase "Indian giver" in relation to Asian Indian/Hindu rather then American Indian/Native American?

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 01 May 00 - 04:28 PM

There is a 1983 book by Lewis Hyde called The Gift: Imagination and the Erotic Life of Property whose thesis is that "a work of art is essentially a gift and not a commodity." In one of the early chapters he explores the idea of an "Indian giver." (I read parts of this book years ago, and here I am dredging up some ideas from my rather vague memory.) According to him, the east-coast Indians had some ceremonial objects (the tobacco pipe, for example) which were considered too important to be owned by individuals, but which were deemed to belong to the whole community. It was an honor to be the temporary caretaker of such an item. The possessor was expected to keep it for a few weeks and then pass it on to some other worthy person in the community, and in the meantime, to make the object available whenever it was needed. When the Indians first "gave" these objects to European colonists, they meant it as a token that they accepted the newcomers as respected neighbors and community members, and they expected the custom to be followed. The Europeans didn't understand this, however, and tended to keep the items as permanent trophies. When the Indians asked for the items to be returned, it was either because the objects were needed to perform some ceremony, or because the Indians were trying to teach the Europeans some manners!

While this makes a charming story, I must admit some skepticism. Lewis Hyde didn't impress me as a reliable anthropologist or historian. He is a "Luce Professor of Art and Politics" in the department of American Studies at Kenyon College. He writes more like a philosopher or art historian - lots of inference and interpretation, very little evidence. That's probably why I never finished the book.

There is also a web site called The Straight Dope which gives another theory about "Indian giver."

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Metchosin
Date: 01 May 00 - 04:48 PM

RichM, your definition, that I used as a child, fits my understanding of the term here on the wetcoast of Canada. It isn't used anymore, at least no one that I know still uses it, as it was always considered derogatory and was predicated on the European's misunderstanding of native cultural practices.

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Noreen
Date: 01 May 00 - 05:51 PM

I didn't realise I would get such a wide response and discussion going - thank you all!

Sorry to correct you John C., but Richard and Linda became Sufi Muslims, so the Indian/Hindu connection would not apply.

And MMario, I have never heard the expression spoken, nor read it, in all my 41 years (in England), hence my request.

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 May 00 - 06:45 PM

Looks like this is another situation where a term can have multiple and conflicting origins and meanings. I always thought of it as an expression of white prejudice against American Indians, saying that an Indian couldn't be trusted to give a gift and give it permanently. Someboy above looked on it from the perspective of the untrustworthiness of whites who supposedly gave things to the Indians. Seems like both explanations are credible.

The Wordsworth Dictionary of Phrase & Fable is a successor to the better-known Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase & Fable. The Brewer book doesn't say anything about the phrase, but the Wordsworth book has this entry:

Indian giver: an expression of U.S. origin, one who gives a present and later asks for its return, as American Indians did, if they got nothing in exchange for their gifts.

An expression that's always fascinated me is "hoi polloi," which comes for the Greek term that means "the many." The Webster's New World English-language dictionary definition of the term is

the common people, the masses: usually patronizing or contemptuous: sometimes preceded by the

How many times have you hear people misuse the term "hoi polloi" to refer to upper-crust people?
I think it's important for us to remember that words, songs, myths, ideas, and many other beautiful things rarely have clear pedigrees - and it's a good thing that they don't. The "folk process" is a wonderfully messy affair that affects all of us at every moment, and creates accidentally profound beauty all around us.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Gary T
Date: 01 May 00 - 06:55 PM

Joe, in re "hoi polloi", I always figured that misusing it to mean the elite came from confusion with the term "hoity-toity", which I understand as a somewhat sarcastic reference to taking on airs.

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Metchosin
Date: 01 May 00 - 07:18 PM

also on the topic of misused phrases, I don't know how many times I have seen this one misquoted:

"Music hath charms to soothe the savage breast,
To soften rocks, or bend a knotted oak."

from The Mourning Bride. Act i. Sc. 1.
by William Congreve, 1670-1729

There have been a lot of "savage beasts" rendered into submission by this one.

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Petr
Date: 01 May 00 - 09:09 PM

The custom of sharing is very common in aboriginal societies. One of my professors in university lived up in the Arctic with the Inuit. He noticed that if they saw something they liked (eg a nice pair of gloves they asked and expected to be able to use them). This is probably a very useful custom in nomadic lifestyle. Which reinforces some of the comments made above.

The second and more subtle point though is that this thread and many others for instance the "coon songs" discussion tend to involve us as a society (with our own present values) looking back and making value judgements on previous generations. Historians refer to this as "presentism". In the current climate we make value judgements about Europeans and their treatment and misunderstanding of the natives. The fact is that people have migrated for thousands of years and displaced other people. We can look back and make judgements about (slavery for example) when it was very common for native tribes to raid each other and capture slaves. In the same way our values when applied to the practice of human sacrifice in south and meso american cultures is is just as irrelevant as it is to look back on what Europeans did.

Some more terms which have entered the lexicon. White man speak with forked tongue. Let us bury the hatchet. And skunk and chipmunk are all words that come from native or first nations north american

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 01 May 00 - 09:35 PM

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the bubble-gum type song of the late 60's with the same name (maybe the Partridge Family, maybe that was Indian Lake). I can't recall whether I was familiar with the term before the release of the song - it got a LOT of air play in Australia. If my memory serves me right it was being played about the same time as Cherokee Nation,(...We took a whole Indian nation, put em on a reservation...). Combined with the early stirrings of conscience pangs at that time about similar treatment meted out to Australia's aborigines, it's not too surprising that the meaning of Indian Giver which I adopted saw the white man as the transgressor.

Over the years I've heard the term used in lots of US movies, typically by kids/juveniles. Regards, John

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 02 May 00 - 12:05 AM

Joe, I understand that many of THE hoi polloi live near the Rio Grande River, or up in the Sierra Nevada Mountains, and work for the Department of Redundancy Department.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 May 00 - 12:37 AM

...and they eat their meat with au jus....

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: Gary T
Date: 02 May 00 - 07:58 AM

...and they use their PIN numbers to access ATM machines...

Subject: RE: Indian giver- meaning please?
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 May 00 - 02:52 PM

Thanks for the thread Noreen. Great stuff all. Still no one answer but they are all good ones.