Appalled.

Subject: Appalled.
From: GUEST,sledge
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 03:49 AM

While reading my digital newspaper this morning I came across an item that I thought would be of interest, especially when recent threads have touched on both bigotry and tall ships, an odd combination I know.

It seems that the French will not let Africans from this ship into France while allowing the white European crew members to enter, no problem. These kids are taking part in a multi-culteral sail training exercise in tolerance around Europe, some example eh.

The full storey is to be found on the British page of the Times website.

WWW.the-times.co.uk

---

Here's a link to the story.

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: MudGuard
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 04:49 AM

Hello sledge,

a blue clicky is quite easy: <a href="http://the site you want">the Text you want</a>

as in: <a href="http://www.the-times.co.uk">Link to the Times</a>

which results in: Link to the Times

MudGuard

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: sledge
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 05:20 AM

Here we go, another gem, we are not alone it seems.

Times troll item

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 06:20 AM

I've just sent an email to the French Embassy in London with a copy of the story and a covering note saying I hope that this story is not true, and that if so it is a disgusing libel on France. But thatbif the story is true, it is shameful.

I suggest that other people who feel the same do this as well, to their own local French Embassy.

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 06:46 AM

Good idea, could you let those of us in the UK know the email for the French Embassy, please? Whether it makes a difference or not, we can't just let these things go unchallenged.

Brian

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: sledge
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 06:55 AM

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: Tony Burns
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 07:06 AM

Here's a link to the story.

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 07:54 AM

And here's a link to the embassy.

But on most browsers, if you just write French Embassy and the name of your country, it'll come up with an approporiate link.

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 07:57 AM

And I think that the best way to treat it is as a friend of France who is angry that France is being libelled, since surely this shameful thing cannot be true? Puts them more on the back foot.

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: Margaret V
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 08:38 AM

Thanks for the heads-up. Have just sent an e-mail inquiry to the embassy here in the US. Margaret Okay, I'll try my first blue link on this: French Embassy in US

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: Margaret V
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 08:40 AM

(Hey, it worked! Thanks for pushing me over the techno. hump, MudGuard.) Margaret

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: Giac
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 09:44 AM

Thanks, Sledge, for posting this. And, thanks to others,too, for the embassy advice. I've also sent an e-mail.

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: Morticia
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 09:48 AM

Kevin, I couldn't get in on your link but it was easy enough to find the French Embassy. When I wrote I took the stance of telling them that I was a frequent visitor ( true) and spent lots of money there ( also true) and will never set foot in their poxy country again if they don't rethink their stance on this issue ( but put more politely and also true)and I would urge all my friends and family to do the same.If enough people do this, there will be an economic impact......not huge, I expect, but it will establish that they do have something to lose.

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 10:56 AM

What garbage. Be thankful for Mudcat, my friends. The mainstream world is a far more ugly place.

Rick

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: Crowhugger
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 11:28 AM

You've got that right, Rick. Sledge, another thanks for the heads up. Will find time to do same in Canada despite preparing for vacation which includes making a quilt I'm to deliver while away and I should've started it before yesterday!

CH.

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 11:33 AM

Thanks very much and I will also follow through on this. There has been some discussion of doing a type of economic boycott elsewhere, kind of like Morticia has mentioned May I ask if anyone would be willing or if they have considered doing the same type of email action concerning the "troubles" in Ireland? I do not mean to belittle the subject of this thread. I am just curious as to whether people think it would also be helpful and if they would be willing to do so.

Thank you very much,

kat

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: Melani
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 12:54 PM

Margaret V-thanks for the link. It makes commentary to the right place really easy.

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 01:09 PM

McGrath suggesting that we all e-bomb people.

I'm surprised at you, considering you advised people not to do it in another thread.

But....but, I was onl....

Yes we know, Kevin.

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 01:53 PM

Thread slide here = any chance we can make the blue clicky instructions part of a perma thread?

And I cannot believe that this sort of thing STILL happens today. They are rightly keeping the label of perfidious French.

LTS

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 02:44 PM

I just fired off my email to the French embassy. It looks like either appalling bureaucracy or appalling racism. Thanks for the info.

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 02:51 PM

Another sad thing about the racisim in France... They (the racists) are using Joan Of Arc as their figurehead... she drove out the english... they want her to drive out the other ethnic groups...

I wonder how many millions will have to go back to Norway, when France declairs itself "French Only"...

P.S. Does anybody know the proper term for this discrimination?? Racisim is based on race right? Well, there's only ONE race of human beings on this planet... So what do we call people who discriminat on the basis of ethnic origin??

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: Morticia
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 02:51 PM

Liz, there are blue clicky instructions in the perma-thread under HTML

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 03:01 PM

"Perfidious French" - yes, but I hope that any French Catters will be equally appalled and indignant. And the English government definitely has very dirty hands when it comes to racist immigration policies. Bloody hands as well as dirty hands.

Whether emailing protests like this does any good, I don't know. But a friend was talking to a Labour MP about immigration and the way the Labour government has been pretty well as nasty in the way it talks about refugees asa the Tory opposition - and he was saying "but you should see my postbag" because the racists write in all right.

So it's important to correct the balance - somebody gets to see those emails, and some message about it may filter upstairs. It's not a question of playing games like flooding them with phony attachments and so forth. That just lets them off the hook.

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: Turtle
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 03:37 PM

Thanks for the link, Margaret. I sent an email about this too. It'll be interesting to see if there's any follow-up in the news, or if the French government will reconsider their stance.

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: Kernow John
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 06:29 PM

Thanks Sledge for bringing this up. My email has been posted.
Are there any French folks on the 'Cat' that can confirm this for us?
And I am sure that there are just as many French who will protest about this just as there are people like myself here in the UK who have spent time badgering various colours of government about their attitude to N.Ireland and to Immigration.
Baz

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: Gary T
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 09:48 AM

Sorry, Clinton, I know your motives are honorable, but this there's only ONE race of human beings on this planet... is simply not true. Humans comprise one SPECIES, but there are several races and subraces of human beings. These are biological terms, they have definitions, and they are useful, even if we find it abhorrent to see discrimination and cruelty applied on such a flimsy basis as race.

The old feel-good liberal standby phrase, "I believe in only one race, the human race" is sweet, but largely useless. It does not make bioligical classification of race disappear, nor does it do away with racial prejudice. One might as well say "I believe in only one make of car, the American car" or "I believe in only one color of hair, the human color"--these statements are equally nonsensical. There are differences; humans by nature sort and classify differences. Denying that the differences exist and deleting the classifying words from the language doesn't solve any problems. Teaching people that the differences are no more meaningful than hair color is a more realistic approach.

On the plus side, there is no need to construct an alternative term for "racism", it quite accurately describes discrimination based on race, of which there is plenty. Terms for discrimination based on country of origin, religion, and various other classifications tend to be less compact, but they exist or are readily coined as needed.

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: WillH (inactive)
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 02:22 PM

I have read the orginal post in this thread, and then read the article, and I find that the original thread creates the impression that the French refused visas to Africans, and gave them to Europeans, which is not true.

According to the article,

"On Friday, the organisers managed to get French visas for four Ethiopians and two Kosovans. Negotiations to get permission to enter France for the four Sudanese and one Eritrean - a refugee who lives in Norway - failed. "

The article goes on to say" Four other Eritreans have visas for the Schengen border-free zone of Europe, which includes France"

It initially looks like the French refused to issue visas to Africans, and presumably because they are from Africa, but as you can see, they have in fact granted visas to more Africans than they have refused(Four Ethiopians have visas, and four Eritreans have visas, as well)

It looks to me like the people who planned the trip did all the paperwork for the British visit, but tried to get the French paperwork done at the last minute and hit some snags. It happens every day, with tours and special travel groups such as performers and sports teams, and ocassionally, with merchant ships and even plane crews, and generally, it gets worked out to everyone's satisfaction.

It is unfortunate for the organization involved, and for the young people as well, that this matter has been publicized the way that makes it harder to resolve. Often, people take the story to the press, with the idea that the pressure of public outcry will get them what they want. It usually does.

What they never think about is that it often makes it harder for the sponsor organization to do similar things in the future. Most important, it often makes things much harder for refugees, migrant workers, and other displace individuals who have no recourse.

I used to be involved with with a community based organization that worked with migrants, immigrants, and refugees, and I can tell you from my firsthand knowledge that there are millions of people living in what amount to concentration camps, unable to return home, and trapped by closed borders and visa restrictions.

Familes wait in these places for years to get travel papers, and there are many children to are born and grow up in them. There are many people who die in them, as well.

Wherever they are from, and whatever happens to them, let these young people and there visa problems, remind you of the millions of refugees whose stories never make it into the Times.

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: WillH (inactive)
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 02:23 PM

I have read the orginal post in this thread, and then read the article, and I find that the original thread creates the impression that the French refused visas to Africans, and gave them to Europeans, which is not true.

According to the article,

"On Friday, the organisers managed to get French visas for four Ethiopians and two Kosovans. Negotiations to get permission to enter France for the four Sudanese and one Eritrean - a refugee who lives in Norway - failed. "

The article goes on to say" Four other Eritreans have visas for the Schengen border-free zone of Europe, which includes France"

It initially looks like the French refused to issue visas to Africans, and presumably because they are from Africa, but as you can see, they have in fact granted visas to more Africans than they have refused(Four Ethiopians have visas, and four Eritreans have visas, as well)

It looks to me like the people who planned the trip did all the paperwork for the British visit, but tried to get the French paperwork done at the last minute and hit some snags. It happens every day, with tours and special travel groups such as performers and sports teams, and ocassionally, with merchant ships and even plane crews, and generally, it gets worked out to everyone's satisfaction.

It is unfortunate for the organization involved, and for the young people as well, that this matter has been publicized the way that makes it harder to resolve. Often, people take the story to the press, with the idea that the pressure of public outcry will get them what they want. It usually does.

What they never think about is that it often makes it harder for the sponsor organization to do similar things in the future. Most important, it often makes things much harder for refugees, migrant workers, and other displace individuals who have no recourse.

I used to be involved with with a community based organization that worked with migrants, immigrants, and refugees, and I can tell you from my firsthand knowledge that there are millions of people living in what amount to concentration camps, unable to return home, and trapped by closed borders and visa restrictions.

Familes wait in these places for years to get travel papers, and there are many children to are born and grow up in them. There are many people who die in them, as well.

Wherever they are from, and whatever happens to them, let these young people and there visa problems, remind you of the millions of refugees whose stories never make it into the Times.

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 08:56 PM

People vary, butspeaking about it in terms of a small number of "races" oversimplified it and distorts it.

What happens is you've got a whole spectrum of minor variations. You just can't draw a line at any point, except where there have been shifts of population which have brought together people from widely varied geographical origins. Which is of course what happened with America, and what happened with European imperialism.

Som you'll find p[laces where people are pretty well jet black, and you'll find places where people are very pale, and go red if they're put in the sun for long.And georgahically in between those places you've got people all the intermediate shades, and at no point could you really draw a line and say "this person belongs to a white race" and "this person belongs to a black race". You could of course say "this person is blacker than that person" or "this person is white than that person", for what it's worth.

What puzzles me about all this stuff with keeping people out of other countries is, since everyone in power seems pretty well agreed that globalisation of everything to do with money and trade is a good idea, and barriers to trade are a bad thing - how come barriers to human beings are still seen as necessary and sensible? Not just individuals you might have some reason to keep out, but whole swathes of people.

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: MarkS
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 11:43 PM

I remember reading somewhere that some professor had calculated that any person in the world can be no more distant than an 11th cousin from anybody else. I also recall that as a younger man I heard said, "The more things change the more they remain the same." Thought it was foolish at the time, but now that I am (more than) a few years older, I am beginning to see the sense of that.

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 12:00 AM

G'day

Clinton Hammond: Surely the term you need is Chauvinism ... the French invented it (or, at least, Chauvin) and are the past masters.

Regard(les)s,

Bo Bolton

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 06:40 AM

To suggest that the French are more racist than the English or the Americans etc etc (the list would stretch round the world is not sensible and it's not fair. Just remember how musicians like Sidney Bechet moved to France to escape the racism back home.

All countries have racists, and all countries have people who hate racism. And getting racist in the cause of anti-racism ("the French are past masters of Chauvinism)is a pretty strange way to go.)

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: Terry K
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 01:16 AM

One thing you can bet your house on is that it's not as simplistic as seems to made out in this thread. They will have their reason. Nothing the French do should surprise anyone - "Gallic logic" is the original oxymoron.

Cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: Crowhugger
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 03:05 AM

Clinton,

One expression that would accurately reflect the one you're looking for is "ethnic discrimination." I've not yet heard anyone refer to "ethnism," though I have heard - only once - "ethnophobia." The onslaught of new buzzwords can lead to complete silliness; I like to use words that already exist, in the simplest combination I can find. "Ethnic bias" is interesting because it may be in favour of or against the identifiable group.

Well, that's enough deep thought for me; time to grab a bit of sleep, pack up the car and go on vacation.

CH.

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 07:18 AM

Have fun, CH! Ethnocentrism is one that comes to mind, too. Anyone think there may be too much vague generalities being said about the French in here, with the thought of what some Frenchman might think if they came looking for music?

katmarriedtoaLaFrance

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 08:16 AM

Shame on you Terry K,

"Nothing the French do should surprise anyone - "Gallic logic" is the original oxymoron."

Can't you see how this kind of bigotry undermines the intentions and underlying sentiments of this thread?

Brian

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 10:30 AM

I can remember when ethnic cleansing meant Morris Dancers having a bath.

Subject: RE: Appalled.
From: Bert
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 10:45 AM

'Morris Dancers having a bath'? I think you're stretching the truth a little there McG.

Bert.