Help: The Bible and John Prine

Subject: Help: The Bible and John Prine
From: JenEllen
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 07:26 PM

Okay, just put this one down to the fact that I have to know how things work, songs included, and I'm pretty much a biblical illiterate. Any help with WHY this is there would be greatly appreciated.

In the Prine song "Bottomless Lake" (it's listed under "The Endless Hole" in the DT) there is a line about reading "David and Solomon" in the bible. WHY??? I don't remember anything biblically that would equate being stuck in a sinking car to anything that either of the two men had to endure. What did I miss?

Thanks in advance.

~Elle

Subject: RE: Help: The Bible and John Prine
From: Brendy
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 08:39 PM

King David and King Solomon were very very wise,
With very many lady friends, and twice as many wives.
But when old age came over them with many quims and qualms,
King Solomon wrote the Proverbs, while King David wrote the Psalms.

Spike Milligan

B.
(don't know if that sheds any light on the subject, but I couldn't resist posting it!!)

Subject: RE: Help: The Bible and John Prine
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 09:09 PM

Hey, Brendy, do you remember any more of that?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Help: The Bible and John Prine
From: Owlkat
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 09:19 PM

Hi, I think he just put it in because he liked the way it sounded in the song. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Owl.

Subject: RE: Help: The Bible and John Prine
From: Brendy
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 09:22 PM

That's it, Joe!
Spike Milligan was famous for his 'silly verse' (I don't know if you got his shows in the US [Muses with Milligan]), but he often wrote little quips like that.
I know a load of different ones, but I'll go off and look for a site that might have some of these little gems on it.

Apologies to JenEllen, for the creep, but I don't know much about John Prine's thought processes, and while we're waiting, I'll head off in that direction and see what I come up with.

B.

Subject: RE: Help: The Bible and John Prine
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 09:54 PM

Thinking about other Prine lyrics and his attitude, etc., I agree with owlkat......I think Ol' John put it in as a way of his character saying that you need to get right with God before and if you whup up!! I think he'd have used Paul & Silas or Ezekiel & Ruth if it had made the rhyme.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Help: The Bible and John Prine
From: Brendy
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 11:01 PM

I remember a discussion a good while ago, 'Spaw, trying to analyse Jimmy McCarthy's 'Bright Blue Rose'.

Who knows the secrets of black magic box?.

However, back from my travels, I managed to find these, Joe:

Humourous Poems (Read 'Why?' *BG*)
Serious poems
Goon Show scrips and Wav files
Puckoon News

B.

Subject: RE: Help: The Bible and John Prine
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 11:24 PM

Damn you Brendy.........I got more stupid crap bookmarked than the law should allow (like this for instance) and now I got four more. Puckoon has some great links BTW.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Help: The Bible and John Prine
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 12:04 AM

I know the feeling with all the bookmarks - I must organise them some day(s). I particularly liked the 'Pig Bouncing' article in Puckoon News.

Just my weird sense of humour, I guess!!

B.

Subject: RE: Help: The Bible and John Prine
From: Stewie
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 01:23 AM

I agree with you, Spaw, that it's probably an arbitrary choice, but 'David and Solomon' doesn't make any rhyme in the stanza either - so, to that extent, your argument is shot.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: The Bible and John Prine
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 01:50 AM

I don't know, but I think the clue lies in the last verse:

So if you're ever goin' on a big trip
Ya better be careful out there
start everything out on your good foot
And wear clean underwear
Take along a Bible in the back seat
Read of David and of Solomon
For if you make a mistake in the bottomless lake
You may never see your sweetheart again.

I'm no student of the Bible, neither, but what sort of exile(?), or loss, did both David and Solomon suffer, that you could learn from?

I know that it is basically the same question that Jen asks. I just thought a change of phrasing might unravel something.

The trouble, though, about songwriters' use of imagery, is that it often only really means something to the person who wrote it.
If this is what has happened here, we may never grasp it.

But to take 'Spaw's argument a bit further, one may also look at his choice of characters from a purely rythmical sense; the syllables to suit the tune, as it were.

Are you out there John?

B.

Subject: RE: Help: The Bible and John Prine
From: Quincy
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 06:01 AM

David (who was the shepherd boy that killed Goliath) was king of Israel for forty years and in that time he had plenty of trouble from enemies attacking God's people.
When David got old he gave orders that his son Solomon would take over as king. When Solomon became king he had a dream in which God asked him what he requested.
Instead of asking for riches or a powerful army to protect the Isrealites, he asked for Wisdom and knowledge to lead God's people. So God made him the wisest king to have ever ruled Israel but He gave him riches also as He was pleased with Solomon's request.
Solomon thus became a king of peace whilst David had been a king of war. He went on to rule the Israelites well and it was his wisdom that he was noted for.

Now perhaps.....and only perhaps, the song mentioned in the thread could be referring to the wisdom of the child..maybe a son?
It seems like from verse 2 onwards it's the child telling the story, and the child seems to have understanding of what's going on! He's listening to exchanges by his parents of "what if...?"
Now David and Solomon being father and son and Solomon had more sense than his father.......could this be a possibility???
David (the father) had a stormy time as king but Solomon (the son) had a very prosperous reign due to his Wisdom given to him by God.
It's a long shot I know but it's just a thought!!!

best wishes, Yvonne

Subject: RE: Help: The Bible and John Prine
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 09:29 AM

Well, I like the thoughts we're getting here......some interesting scenarios!!!!

Stewie, regarding the rhyme........I think that I saw it because I have that same hick dialect as Prine, so in the best "Prinese" ... the word one word is Sol-uh-min and the other is uh-ghin....and THOSE two rhyme.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Help: The Bible and John Prine
From: JenEllen
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 03:48 PM

Nice stuff y'all. Yvonne sheds a bit of light, and also Brendy's Proverbs and Psalms. Makes a little more sense anyways! Thanks,

~Elle

Subject: RE: Help: The Bible and John Prine
From: DougR
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 01:58 PM

Or Owlkat might be right. Maybe it is just a cigar.

I know Prine is known as a great songwriter, performer. Is he also known as a deep thinker? DougR

Subject: RE: Help: The Bible and John Prine
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 03:14 PM

That's an interesting point Doug. First I think he is quite intelligent, but he has great perception into the human condition. For me, no one paints so graphic a character with so few words as he does and he also uses some phrases that evoke such strong images that I can relate immediately to what he is saying. Maybe its because I'm a bit skewed in my outlook as is he.....I dunno.........I know that I rarely have to read between the lines or look for "great symbolism" in his stuff. In most cases, its right out front in very few words. For me, that's genius.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Help: The Bible and John Prine
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 06:33 PM

In an interview I did with Mary Gauthier she makes the point that he (Prine) makes the complicated writing seem simple---a very difficult thing to do. The simplest rhymes that create a picture that really says something about the human condition.

On a lighter note---The Bottomless Lake---always reminded me of a picnic trip that Al Bundy & family (Married With Children) would have gone on in their '76 Dodge.

Bill H

Subject: RE: Help: The Bible and John Prine
From: TonyK
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 11:38 PM

I think Prine would go along with the idea of the Bundy trip. My take on John Prine is that he is often cynical and in this instance could be highlighting a lot of messages that kids were given about what was important back then. When it comes to what really matters in life, like when you're sinking to the bottom of a lake, clean underwear to a kid is about as good as reading of David and Solomon, especially when what you're really worried about is never seeing your sweetheart again.

Subject: RE: Help: The Bible and John Prine
From: GUEST,m l mack
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 12:44 AM

I have to suspect that Prine chose those two names for their rhythem. Does anyone know if he's deeply religious or a bible scholar?

Subject: RE: Help: The Bible and John Prine
From: Stewie
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 03:39 AM

TonyK, I reckon you are spot on with your with your 'take' on the matter.

--Stewie