No Real Choice in American Elections

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: bflat
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 09:01 PM

Wow Sandy! That was a substantive missive. I too an concerned that Nader delivers the election to Bush, a man destined to become a laughingstock if elected and therefore the people of the US. Bush will not advance the values of Lincoln. He is a pawn and I fear that he can't think, let alone for himself.

bflat

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: Troll
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 09:26 PM

Just remember that everyone thought that Truman was nothing but a machine politician and he seems to have done ok.
Sometimes-not often but sometimes- men rise to the ocassion and surprise even themselves.
As far as the US being a laughing-stock, so what. Do you really believe they will like us any better if we elect Nader, Gore, or the Tooth Fairy? International relations isn't about friendship. It's about self-interest; what can this country do for me.
Half the world thought Clinton should have resigned (Japan for instance) and half France etc) wondered what the fuss was about. I think he should have fallen on his sword to redeem himself but then I'm kind of partial to grand gestures.

troll

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 09:48 PM

Thanks, Sandy. If Nader is out for more than self-aggrandisement, as I hope he is, he may yet release his fans and urge a Democratic vote. I hope so- if not, Bush is in, I'm afraid.

Ebbie

Who's the mudcatter who said some time back that his prediction is that Gore will get in- and that his presidential predictions haven't been wrong yet? His name starts with G, I think. Come in, G! I need some encouraging words.

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 10:13 PM

I might add that Toby Moffett is another proud member of Connecticut's Lebanese community (as is one of my daughters-in-law), and he used to have dinner with the Nader family when he and his father were in Winsted, Nader's home town. They've been friends and political allies since Toby was in his teens. Toby left the Citizen's Action Group when he was elected to the House of Representatives for three terms, elected as a Democrat from a district that is predominantly Republican. Toby recently joined with a number of other former Nader-Raiders to plead with him to ask his supporters in all those critical (and painfully close) states to give their votes to Gore, who will at least do more to protect the environment and our natural resources. Also remember that Bush has stated that his favorite Supreme Court Justices are Scalia and Thomas! Think about it, folks! Is your self-righteous protest vote worth four years of a Bush-league government? Be sensible! There's too much at risk.

Grandpa Paton

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: Sourdough
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 10:37 PM

I was seriously considering voting for Nader, a man whom I have met and o some small degree worked with (more with the Raiders than with Nader, himself.)

I am becoming increasingly concerned that soft-cynics, feeling dissatisfied with the indubitable deficiencies of the Presidential selection process, will cast what are essentially feel-good votes for Nader, a man who, within his level of competence, has been brilliant. Those people can convince themselves that they are striking a blow for good government by voting for Nader. This is much easier than going out and taking real action on a grass roots level. I think most everyone will have to admit that Nader is not Presidential in background. Even Carter, who had morals, vision and courage was ineffective when faced with the complexities of Iran and the economy. Bush Two will have to rely on advisors. Politics is the art of the possible, the art of compromise. His advisors are people who are interested in elections, not politics.

I hope that when people consider what will happen during the coming years when we have to rely on the courage, vision and morality of a President faced with weapons of mass destruction, global warming, and the ten or fifteen crises that undoubtably will happen in the next four years, it will be far better to have a man who is smarter, better prepared and has a vision compass that goes beyond the next election.

I have decided not to vote for Nader but will vote for Gore.

Sourdough

PS: When I lived in DC, I spent a lot of time with people whose job was elections, not politics. I learned something about hte mechanics of running Presidential campaigns. THis one will go down, I am sure, as an excellent example of how campaign people managed to let one canditate frame the view of the other.

One last thing: On the topic of how well Truman turned out. Well, Truman was a man whose knowledge and indepencence were well known before he succeeded to the Presidency. The Truman Commission had already shown him to be an honest man who had long ago autgrown the local graft of his home state.

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: MarkS
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 11:37 PM

Making a choice between Bush and Gore is like telling the pickpocket which hand, left or right, to use to lift your billfold.
A vote for Nader is not wasted but is useful in two ways:
A. He could presumably (a real longshot here) carry a state or two, enough to prevent an electoral majority by either of the other two - and wouldn't that just shake things up to a fare thee well, or, more realistically,
B. He could get enough of a plurality to allow the powers that be to cease to ignore him next time around.

Posts here seem to regard the candidate of choice to be the lessor of two evils. So if you want to look at yourself in the mirror, please vote for the candidate who most closely mirrors your own feelings and views. If that happens to be Nader, then please vote for him. You will have done the right thing and will know that you have made an incremental step to, just maybe, getting some positive change here over the long run.
MarkS

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: Caleb
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 11:49 PM

I have lived through Nixon,I have lived through Reagan. I watched my dad the Marine frisbee my Dylan records out the window in the Sixties, marched on DC in the Seventies, and implored B. Bradley,in correspondence, to run before the Elderbush/Dukakis debacle in the Eighties. Clinton was a bright spot until the Contract with America put Texas exterminators and Georgia demagogues in the drivers seat of the crane with the wrecking ball. Part of the failure of American education that no candidate mentions is that we have an electorate of morons,led by a media mob of simpering, finger to the wind snake oil salesmen...Argh!

S. Paton, Jacob B. and others above have nailed it. This is a big one! Tell your momma, tell your papa, tell your uncle tell your friend! The liar Shrub is a front for A Cheney Presidency. This W is a guy who bought his way into office,(an office with little power in a state which is County Government madness)on the strength of his daddy's rep and pandering to the unAmerican Right.

Have you seen the TV reports and poll numbers about "likeability"?? What!? You don't have to carpool with Al! As you walk through the subway, sit in traffic, stand in line at the supermarket, cruise the mall with your kids...look at the faces of the voters! Only one in three will go to the school or firehouse or town hall annex on Nov. 7! They don't have a buggerall clue!

This is a big one - vote responsibly - vote for Al Gore and a new Congress where real campaign finance reform and prescription drug assistance for the elderly will truly be on the table. This guy is light years more qualified than the Shrub. Didn't you see the smirk on W's face - he almost smacked his lips - when he gloated about 'putting people to death'- the guy is out there! It's four years people; we gotta get it right.

Jeez, maybe I better get back to that thread about what's in my guitar case....

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 12:00 AM

If I were an American citizen...I would slightly rather see Gore win than Bush, but this doesn't indicate any confidence in Gore or his party. I consider both the Democrats and Republicans to be as "a sounding brass", noise and fury signifying nothing but their own desire for power, and the agents of the System in Amerika.

Who I would far rather see win is Nader. I know that he can't win in this election, but how do you expect to build something for the future that offers a viable alternative to the blandishments and emptiness the Donkey and the Elephant? You've got to vote your conscience in order to eventually change a rotten system.

Big parties have met their end before through repeated corruption...study your own US history since 1776. The Democrats and Republicans can be brought down, but you can't do it if you keep voting for them every time. You've got to start voting for something new. The System owns the old parties, body and soul, and they are its errand boys. Bush and Gore are figureheads.

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 01:28 AM

"Voting your conscience" once every four years is going to accomplish diddly-squat! Nader, at his best, isn't going to win a single electoral vote. The way to effect change is to get into action at the local (yes: at town, county, and state) levels and put together town committees, for instance, who look to the larger issues than who's gonna grab the next open spot on the town road crew. When Toby Moffett announced his candidacy, I was on the Democratic Town Committee here in Sharon. I took Toby to the next Town Committee meeting and introduced him to them all. We then worked in his campaign and sent him to the Congress. We were doing what those bumper-stickers advise - thinking globally, acting locally.

Campaign finance reform has a much better chance of passing with Gore in office, and that is a critical first step toward returning power to the people. Think of that when you help put George W., with all his huge corporate contributions, in office.

I haven't looked at that thread, Caleb, but whatever's in your guitar case, if it led to your current thinking, I hope you can spread it around.

Sandy

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: Troll
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 01:43 AM

It has been my experience that campaign finance reform is always touted by the party that has no chance at passing it. Neither side wants it.
As far as prescription drugs are concerned, neither side shows me much. A pox on both their houses!
As far as corporate contributions go, Gore is just as guilty as Bush.

troll

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 01:45 AM

Good letter Sandy and good thoughts.......but I fear the toast is burning.

The Supreme Court folks.......Are we so willing to turn back the clocks and march proudly back to the Dark Ages? The Court, if for no other reason. You want to support change and Nader, then start now preparing for 2004...........

.....and vote Gore in this one!!!!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: Troll
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 01:08 AM

Spaw, we survived the liberal courts, we'll survive a conservative court if that be the case.

troll

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: GUEST,celtic fawn
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 05:23 AM

Reading this forum I would come away with the conclusion that all the polls are wrong. Some of you that are so pro Nader or even those that seem to be pro Gore are interesting to read. It is laughable that the one who barely made it out of Harvard and flunked out of devinity school is the one who is branded the itellect. The one who made good grades at Yale and has an MBA from Harvard is portrayed as the dummy. It was also interesting to read the "spin" one of the submitters put on Truman. At the time he was elected the Pendergast machine was very much pulling for the "shirt salesman who wouldn't be up to the job of president."

I'll admit that Gore is the better actor. He learns his lines well. His "Jolson" routine of "You ain't seen nothin yet" is getting old, but he knows the speech. His "One percent" was old on the second telling and so misleading. I'll be happy to take my tax cut thank you and won't be upset that someone who pays more than I do will get more in return.

The same people who don't want to touch the open space in Alaska (the current drilling doesn't seem to bother the animals as the herds have increased) are the same ones who want to send the nuclear waste clear across the country through some of your hometowns to be put in my backyard.

Can any of you Gore followers tell me why Lieberman is still running for the Senate?

I may disagree with many of you but I am thankful to live in a country where you have the right to think and write as you do and I have the right to think and write as I do. I remember being very upset when Goldwater didn't get elected. He too was bombasted by the press. And life went on. No matter who wins the election on November 7, 2000 the United States of America will go on and still be the best country to live in in the world.

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: harpmolly
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 11:30 AM

Sigh...well, the polls don't look good. I hate to say it, but I think *I'm* going to call the deal off--it looks like Nader's doing well enough for himself in Oregon.

Of course, if I vote for Gore my mum will vote for Bush, so it's kind of pointless anyway. But at least I'll feel I did something semi-productive.

This election sucks.

M

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 11:46 AM

HAHA HA HA HA I already voted, and NONE of them losers got my vote! HA HA HA!

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 12:26 PM

I tried to go to early voting on Saturday and decided I didn't want to stand in line for two hours when the sun was shining outside.

I'm with Sandy on the idea that if people want change, they have to get involved on a regular basis, starting with their local community.

I hope Jesse Ventura runs in 2004.

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: DougR
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 12:53 PM

Sandy: your letter reads pretty eloquent to me! Well said.

I don't think Mr. Nader is anywhere near withdrawing, though, and his goal is not the presidency this time around. He just wants to establish the Green Party so that they can get federal funds during the next election. He is willing to "bite the bullet" and give the election to Bush in order to do that. He, like so many others in our community here, may believe that Governor Bush is so stupid there could be no way for him to be re-elected, if he does beat Gore on November 7th.

In that event, Mr. Nader may feel he will be in a better position to make the run in the next election. Particularly so if a large number of people who believe in him take Sandy's advice and start getting involved at the local level. That's really what it would take.

GUEST, celtic fawn: you must accept that the majority of the population on the Mudcat are liberals. They feel very strongly about their philosophy, and genuinely fear the worst if Gore loses the election. That does not mean, however, that the majority of the people in the United States share the philosophy of the marjority in our Mudcat community. Therefore, the majority opinion here might not, in anyway, affect what the polls are showing.

DougR

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: Lox
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 01:20 PM

Has anybody heard this idea?

Imagine if you had the choice to actively choose, as an option on the ballot paper, "none of the above"!

The system could be organized so that if 50% of the voters chose "none of the above", then all the candidates would have to withdraw from the elections so that a whole new set of candidates would be forced to stand.

What would the result be?

1. less spending on republican/democrat hype conventions

2. more vigorous debate

3. more competition & choice

When you give the idea serious thought, it grows on you.

whaddaya think?

lox

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 01:52 PM

Lox, I think it has no chance whatsoever of happening, but if it makes you happy to talk about it, go right ahead.

People with stuffy noses need to wake up and smell the coffee. Nader will never be elected president. Never. Not this year, not in 2004, not ever. He is far too extreme for this very moderate country.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: Midchuck
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 06:30 PM

What I have for politicians
In my gray declining years
Is the first line of the chorus
From "Barrett's Privateers."

Peter.

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 06:53 PM

I'm still voting for Nader, though everyone here at work is for Gore (even the ones who were going to vote for Nader, originally). They say crap like 'A vote for Nader's a vote for Bush!' And they keep pointing out that Nader isn't going to win, too. Nader's not running to win. And people aren't voting for him because they think he's going to be elected president. He's not. We're voting to strengthen the Green Party for the future and to increase it's status.

Four years of Bush won't be the end of the world. He's not going to get in there and change things. Like Gore, he just wants to keep the people fat and happy. People like presidents like Clinton, Gore, and Bush. Any one of them will do just fine for the mindless drones who populate this country.

Plus, I'll be voting for TWO 'minority' candidates when I vote for Nader (Arab) and LaDuke (Ojibwe). :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: Matt_R
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 06:58 PM

Maybe not Lepus. I voted just the other day, and Nader was NOT on the ballot.

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: John Nolan
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 07:58 PM

In 1795, just a year before his death, and at a time of enormous suffering for many Scottish people, Burns wrote a series of election ballads highly supportive of a Whig friend, Mr. Patrick Heron, and savaging the Tory slate so favored by rich aristocrats.
In January 1992, as a journalist in New Hampshire surveying the field of primary candidates, and having interviewed most of them, I was struck by the paucity of choice, and wrote the verses below for my annual Burns Supper poetry contest, as well as publishing them in the local paper.
Eight years ago, Clinton (later joined by the hideous Gore, the man that wanted to keep Elian Gonzalez in the USA to win Floridian votes) pledged to do something to help America's 34 million people with no health care coverage. Today there are 43 million Americans with no health insurance.
I had breakfast interview with Nader, one Sunday, and it wasn't easy on me or the waitress, as Ralph is a man who is either saddled with a thousand principles or he has been living with his mother too long – did you have natural oatmeal, can't you bring skimmed milk, etc. In a poor blue collar town! But he radiated honesty and boy, was that rare and refreshing.
Anyway, this is a traditional music site, and this adaptation of a Burns election address has a good tune, if nothing else:
Trogging = 1. Bartering, bargaining 2. Odds and ends 3. Rubbishy goods, insubstantial trash 4. Worthless specimens, riff-raff 5. Nefarious or illicit dealings
Wha Will Buy My Trogging?
(Tune - Buy Broom Besoms)

Wha will buy my trogging?
Fine election ware;
Broken trade of hucksters,
All in high repair.

Buy braw troggin
In the North Countrie;
Wha wants troggin
Let him come tae me.

Davie Duke's not cast his cowl
Intae the Grantite State;
An all-white population
Gies him naebody tae hate.

Buy braw toggin, etc.

Poor Agran and Fulani got
Excluded frae debate;
They wadnae lay their siller doon
On fuhrer Spirou's plate.

Buy braw troggin, etc.

Glitzy Billy Clinton gabbin
O' his health care plan.
Wi' his ane provider, speir,
Is he Prudential's man?

Buy braw troggin, etc.

Pat Buchanan's fuming at
Thon scand'lous New York Times;
He's just an anti-Semite chiel
When read between his lines.

Buy braw troggin, etc.

And shed nae tears for Wilder, tho
He's droppit oot the race;
Fast track tae the White Hoose?
Fie! We dinnae trust sic pace.

Buy braw troggin, etc.

Should Jolly Joker Kerrey
Ye try tae catch and grill,
He'll blithely skiddle roond the gaff,
Ye'll hook his brither, Bill.

Buy braw troggin, etc.

Geordie Bush at Cabletron
Tae fool us a' he shares
Five minutes wi' the workers,
Wha toil for millionaires.

Buy braw troggin, etc.

Now Harkin and his lawyer clique
Cry "Up the working man!";
But hard times ower in Farmington
They're unco laith tae scan.

Buy braw troggin, etc.

On pachyderms and donkey fowk,
Waste neither cash nor love;
Write in yon honest Nader's name,
And nane o' they above.

Buy braw trogging, etc.

Braw=fine, siller=silver, ane=one, speir=ask, chiel=lad, sic=such, skiddle=move rapidly and lightly, unco laith=very loath, fowk=folk.

Incidentally, Nader, as a write-in candidate got five percent on both Democratic and Republican ballots. Then, as now, he drew crowds numbering thousands, and yet was not granted interviews (= censored)by marvellously liberal papers like the Boston Globe.

P.S. If the UK had remained content with Conservatives and Liberals, the Labor Party would never have become established, and, without their national health system, millions of Britains would also be completely without health coverage, today.

Subject: RE: No Real Choice in American Elections
From: Ely
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 10:11 PM

Just like the bumper sticker says: "I didn't vote for his daddy, either" (or wouldn't have, had I been old enough).

Personal politics aside, I wish all candidates would be given equal air time. I think that to exclude those that are not from the two major parties sends the message that they are not serious, viable, contenders. Maybe they aren't, but they might be someday if they were included in televised debates, etc. Of course, there are myriad other inequities among candidates, but I think that's one that would be more easily remedied than some others.