BS: Really pissed off with America

Subject: Really pissed off with America
From: GUEST,does it matter?
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 06:00 PM

i'm really angry

to reiterate oft quoted figures: the US has 4% of the world's population, yet produces over half of the pollution.

but do you care?

sure some of you do, but recent threads such as this one, suggest that many of you don't.

I know that anti-American threads don't go down too well here, but given the American position in the latest global climate conference, I think you should be very ashamed. Better, do something!

John H

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 06:12 PM

I wish I had the right, as an American, to be resentful of your post. I have no such right, because you have the right of it.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 06:21 PM

Dave your willingness to wear the 'hair shirt' and not rise to the bait is worthy of respect. As a non-American I do object to the wording of the initial post.

This is a serious issue and not one where blaming any nation and their millions of individuals, will move us on very much. Their are many Americans who do care and are doing what they can.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with Americ
From: GUEST,Mickey191
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 06:22 PM

Dear Guest, Please tell me what is America's Position at the conference which has you so angry.Thank you. Slainte.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 06:34 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 06:38 PM

Yes Dave. I agree with Shambles, a fine job.

We are part of a global community and we do overconsume and overpollute in this country. Many around here at the 'Cat are not in that category though and Guest is preaching to the congregation. And even if not, all these threads ever succeed in doing is in elevating the flame.

Let's not play. Guest has had his/her say. Thanks.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 06:40 PM

Shambles,

I only blame America because America is the nation most at fault.

The American position is a big issue

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 06:46 PM

Catspaw / Shambles / DaveO etc

OK, you accept it, you might not like it, it might annoy that it takes up mudcat bandwidth.

Are you prepared to do anything about it?

I doubt it...

When the world dies it will be America's fault, you'll still not get it then

Subject: Really pissed off with HUMANS!
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 06:55 PM

When the world dies???

What arrogence!!

The human race will not destroy the world... we will pollute the eco-sphere to the point where we can no longer survive in it and we'll die out.. in the procress we'll take a huge number of species with us... but in about 1000 years or so the planet will have completly healed itself and all that will be left of the great legacy of the human race will be a few left over plastic bags...

And hopefully, for the sake of the planet, that'll be the last time that evolution ever decides to deal the consiousness card...

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 06:57 PM

The USA, having developed in a fortuitous area for the last 300 years, has indeed become rather obvious in using 'more than our fair share'......It is true, however, that many other countries mine, chop, pollute and waste to excess...they simply are smaller and not as obvious. It would be good if the USA would set a better example, especially since we have the technology and research facilites to do so. I know that many fine Americans would be glad to see us do better, but it IS hard to change the direction of an economic/industrial juggernaut quickly....(it is barely 30 years or so since the world in general began to realize that this needed to be done.)......I would love it if, in my lifetime, the USA's bad image in these matters were changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 07:00 PM

Bill D

How about getting involved instead of just wishing??

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: guinnesschik
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 07:05 PM

Guest:

What are YOU doing besides pointing a finger?

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 07:07 PM

Bill,

Don't blame small countries...

The US has the worst record per capita, or by any other way you might choose to measure by.

You are the greediest, most selfish country in the world, and you can't argue against that, because it's true

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 07:17 PM

<YAWN>

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 07:20 PM

Boy, I just saw that I was so pissed at America that I was speachless.....

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 07:21 PM

Jon, don't you care?

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 07:23 PM

Sorry Jon, I forgot that you can't even be bothered to get a job

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 07:27 PM

Aw c'mon folks.....Let's not play this one too huh???

Guest, here's a site for you and I think it makes all your points......CLICK HERE

Now why don't the rest of us go shopping for Super Belchfire SUV's or something............geeziz................

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 07:32 PM

Spaw,

Fair comment. You miss something however....

Global Warming is the most important problem facing mankind.

The Americans are the worst polluters in the world.

The Americans seem the least inclined to care or do anything about it.

Sorry if this spoils your day, your attitude is killing the planet

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 07:33 PM

So how is Karen today spaw, is she still getting better?

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 07:35 PM

I love that site, Spaw!!! It's on my favorites....excuse me while I go burn my garbage....

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 07:40 PM

Hey Jon.......Thanks for asking, I was going to post in a bit, but things are really looking good for her to be home tomorrow. The pro-time was almost at therapeutic levels and the doc was real happy, saying that tomorrow is likely. She has a roomie now who has tons of family that is there all the time and they're pretty loud....nice folks, but that kind of thing drives you nuts. She said she was ready to do cartwheels down the hall to get out!!!

Tomorrow is Michael's birthday and he thinks that'd be a "cool" present. Of course he's already gotten all of his presents so its easier to look at Mom coming home as a "present."

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 07:57 PM

I'd like to follow Spaw's lead on this but I do have an actual suggestion: Why don't the people of all other powerful nations unite and with one organized, sustained effort shroud the US government with a blanket of their concern? As we know, world condemnation has an effect; if the three arms of government are convinced of its seriousness they will mandate that American businesses change their habits. i can't imagine a better use for the projected fiscal surplus than to make it possible for Americans to change.

The only reason I think that won't happen is that the other nations will not band together to accomplish it.

And if you can't, you'll understand why we can't.

How about them Mets?

ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:10 PM

Spaw, I wonder how much the irritation factor associated with being in a hospital has to do with recovery rate.

I'm glad to hear Karen may be home soon! Make her take it easy when she gets there.

GUEST, you can get as pissed off as you want, I'm not joining you. From the way you worded your first post, and especially from your subsequent posts, it doesn't appear as if you give a shit about pollution - only starting a fight. Maybe someone will want to play with you. In any case, have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:10 PM

.....glad to hear that she is better, spaw. I know you will all be happier when Karen is back being Mom....hope you are all back to the routine very soon..*smile*

(I'd type more, but I have my recycling to do, and several petro-chemical plants to monitor for emissions....as well as converting my van to run on the excess methane from my Mexican dinners. Now if only my wind-powered generator will generate enough volts to run my printer so I can do the posters for the anti-whaling protest!)

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:12 PM

That is great news spaw and hopefully will be a great birthay present for Michael.

Jon

Subject: ya ya ya...
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:17 PM

There is still NO empirical data to prove that the current warming trend IS, infact, global warming due to pollution, and not just a planetary trend... Like what happened about 1000 years ago to allow mild enough weather for the vikings to cross the Atlantic...

Show me an unbiased study...

And if you feel so strongly about it, why hide behind the GUEST handle? Have the courage to stand up for your beliefs or go piss up some other rope...

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:18 PM

Spaw, from your own experience I'm sure you remember that there is almost inevitably an adrenalin let down when you get home, no matter how eager you were to leave the hospital. So baby her for awhile.

I'm very glad she's done so well. Best wishes to all of you.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:23 PM

The thread pointed to by Guest John H is a fairly good indication that most mudcatting Americans are as concerned as anyone else. If he bothers to read it, he will see that sunspots as well as human efforts seem to be implicated in global warming.

For the benefit of any newcomer who may think otherwise, I'm not defending the human contribution - but I don't see how John H has time to be posting here when he should be out there with his garden hose, putting out sunspots.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: kendall
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:24 PM

Just to set the record straight..the worst problem the world has is over population. Why do you think the rain forest is being cut down? why is the elephant being pushed out of existence? Too many people thats why. You cant lay that one on the USA. By the by, my home is heated with natural gas, and I drive an underpowered vehicle.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Ely
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:25 PM

Sorry to perpetuate this thread, but Mudcat strikes me as an ironic target for this kind of flaming, both because it has such a large non-American membership, and because it has seemed to me that we are a group of people that lean toward ecologically friendly measures more than a lot of other groups I can think of. At least, I've seen posts from a fair number of vegetarians and vegans, and we seem to tolerate SUV-bashing pretty well. I don't dare SUV-bash at home (Texas has that lovely combination of large-vehicle obsession and concealed handgun licensing).

I understand GUEST's frustration, but I can't stand blanket assumptions and to go for the throats of all of us regardless of nationality or ecological awareness is, at best, extremely unfair. Furthermore, the anti-pollution Americans among us are fully aware of the problem and are at least as frustrated as GUEST that we can't get the rest of the country to do follow our examples.

Until then, I will continue to recycle everything I can (which is not always easy in the US, where recycling facilities and services are lacking or nonexistent in many areas), drive cars that get high gas mileage (and not drive them at all when I can), and vote against political candidates who don't care about the air I breathe or the water I drink if it makes them a buck.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: pict
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:25 PM

C'mon Clinton even if it was a planetary trend that's no excuse for pollution.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:33 PM

I doubt if Ebbie's suggestion "Why don't the people of all other powerful nations unite and with one organized, sustained effort shroud the US government with a blanket of their concern?" would really do the trick. Being criticised by foreigners brings out the worst in most people in most countries. And if anything that goes double for Americans.

You may remember the eruption of rage over the mere title of a thread on the Mudcat (Why are Americans so f*t?), which involved what I felt as a bystander was really a pretty trivial kind of implied criticism.

I predict that the more the criticism is seen as coming from abroad, the more it will be seen by many Americans as a patriotic gesture to drive a gas-guzzling car and so forth.

I think this is something that Americans are only going to change for themselves, even though the impact of delays in changing are pretty terrifying for the rest of us.

Fortunately the voices calling out loudest for change do often tend to be American voices, so we can just hope they get across to enough fellow Americans to turn things around before too much devastation has been caused elsewhere. Slim hope, but the best we've got I suppose. And of course work by example rather than by direct criticism - and we've an awful, long way to go in the Eurpoean Union to become a good example.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:42 PM

gee, Kendall, how'd two old curmudgeons like us come to agree so well?? Over population IS the main problem.(.see my post on the Global warming thread)

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: John P
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:51 PM

Why don't I do something about it? I do, every day. There was a copy of a book laying around at work, I think it was called "100 Things You Can Do To Save The Planet" or something like that. I flipped through it realized I was already doing all of them, as a matter of course. Most of the people I know are doing most of them as well.

I suppose you want me to become politically involved and organize rallies or something? Would that really solve the problem? What should I give up to make time for this? My job? My family? Playing music? I can only take responsibility for my own waste products, and since I don't buy much of anything that includes or is wrapped in garbage, my waste is fairly light.

I have to agree with Kendall. Most of the serious problems facing the world right now are due to overpopulation. Guest, give us a call when you got that one solved, everywhere in the world. Oh -- you are, of course, a vegetarian?

John

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:51 PM

Ebbie, you can bet on her being well pampered....if that's possible around here. You get sort of invalided and institutionalized and you get well better at home. We talked today about how odd it feels to come home after this....and it does. The feeling passes quickly though.

The population problem is still significant and I have a few ideas on alleviating the pressure starting with the top of this thread.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Gypsy
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 09:25 PM

Gee, Guest, I love how you know how each and every single solitary person is conducting their lives here in the US. What do YOU drive? How do you heat your house? What about groceries? Do you pay attention to packaging? I loathe blanket statements. For that matter, just where do you document your statistics? Just how well documented are they? Hmmmm? Or do you plan on hiding behind the title Guest forever?

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 09:56 PM

Right now, we in America are or should be preoccupied with saving our constitution and our National Identity from the ravages of the mob tactics which have so intimidated the election governors of certain parts of the State of Florida in recent days. The presidency of the U.S.A. is in danger of being stolen by tactics not unlike those used by John D. Rockefeller when he mounted machine guns on railroad cars and killed striking coal miners to secure what he wanted. After we take care of this problem, we'll look at what you have said. You are correct.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Banjer
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 10:01 PM

'Spaw I'm glad to hear that Michael is looking forward to Karen's arrival as a birthday present! That is neat. I would think as you said that she will recuperate much better at home in familiar surroundings. Incidentaly, I vote with you on the reduction of the population problem. Imagine someone not having enough fortitude to use a name, but hide behind the guest handle. Tell Karen hi from all of us here and may her getting back into the familiar routine do her much good.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Troll
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 10:26 PM

Clinton is correct. There is NO -I repeat- NO hard evidence that global warming is (a) a reality or-if it exists-(b) caused by pollution. Scientists with the same data have arrived at opposite conclusions. If you want a good read on the subject, try "Voodoo Science". Sorry, I don't remember the author.
Guest simply wants a fight and to bash the US a bit. As Jon said,"<yawn>". It's too easy Guest. Besides, you need to do a little research. Take the former USSR for example. Because of their greed and shortsightedness, the Aral Sea is, to all intents and purposes, very nearly dead. The only comparable body of water in the US is the Great Lakes complex and at last count they were in passable health. Could be better but not at deaths door.
The rain forest in Brazil isn't doing too well. There is massive pollution in China.Desertification in the Sahel and India is about to burst at the seams with people as is China.
Maybe you ought to try a group that is not as aware and well read as Mudcat.You might be able to get your jollies a little easier.
Pict, you are correct of course; no excuse for pollution.
Kendall, according to Malthus, overpopulation will take care of itsself. And I drive a 3-cylinder car and live in a warm climate so I don't need to use so much natural gas for heat. I'm ahead of you! Nyah!

troll *BG*

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Troll
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 10:28 PM

"Spaw, glad to head Karen's coming home. Happy Days!

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: mountain tyme
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 11:23 PM

Hay John H GUEST. You mite'a GUEST wrong some. I fer one be really glad ya posted this thread. First ya gotta realize wen ya take a good deep look at this here USA curiosity it be pure Zen in action. Till ya mentioned it I almost fergot how much fun it is ta be a'have'n USA on my passport. I jus got back from a 400/800 mile trip wot I took ta play my banjo wif some frens. I was buyin $160 gasoline all day runnin my 8 litre along thet interstate an at 75 mph I be gettin 4 mpg a'fun, cept wen I be jus settin at idle ta run my two airconditioners whilst eat'n a sack'a methane burgers. Now if ya no yur history ya no all the best folks from all over the world come to this piece'a property 300 or so years ago an worked real hard an got it right. I sure don't mind if yer jus a'bit jealous but ya better not mess with it or this here vetrin will grab onta Teddy Rosevelts big stick once again an rap ya some. Not a threat, jus a promise. If ya ain't havin fun John jus try ta catch up partner. If yur thinkin I not be as concerned as you bout this immaginay "polution problem" I'll tell ya I do my part wen I ken. Example, tomorrow I be doin the legal thing, i'm gonna rake up all them messy wet fall leaves inta sacks an drag em in the house ta burn in thet fireplace cause "open burning" be frowned a'pon by some idjuts here abouts. I been savin 2 litre plastic soda bottles all summer fer kindlin jus ta get that fire a'goin. If yur wantin ta understand "pollution" scroll on back up an see wot Kendall sed. He's a wizzard an won't set ya wrong no way. He'll even sing it to ya if ya don't get it firs tyme round. Thanks again fer a wonderfilled idear thread John. Now sew up yur a'hole an participate. An one more thin, the onliest folks really worried about thet immaginary "global warming" is them real estate folks in Florida. Trust me on thet! Have a nice day John. We know ya mean well. Breathe deep, enjoy! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 11:55 PM

It's easy for Guest to flame America, because that doesn't mean it (Guest, that is) has to change anything it is doing. It's up to US to change OUR behavior. Guest, rather than blame other people and accuse others of wrongdoing, why not look at what YOU are doing wrong, and work on fixing that? If we all worked on our own problems, either as individuals or as nations, the world would be a lot better off. When everybody starts pointing out the sins of others, then we get into judgmentalism and name-calling and nothing positive gets done.

The US of A has better anti-pollution laws than most smaller nations; the smaller nations pollute far worse, on a per capita basis, than the USA at this point in history. And trade agreements make it difficult or impossible for ecologically-conscious American firms to discriminate among their suppliers on the basis of pollution emission. Third world physician, heal thyself!

Global warming is a bugaboo. We know from geological evidence that the world gets colder and warmer and colder again in waves. We're just coming off an ice age. Hey, guess what? It's getting warmer! If the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere gets too large, the planet has mechanisms to deal with it (mostly clorophyll-bearing phytoplankton in the oceans).

Overpopulation is a bugaboo. There are huge tracts of land (if you'll excuse the expression) which COULD house human beings, but do not. Until all possible inhabitable land is full, the cry of overpopulation is a little hard to swallow. Statistically, you could fit the population of the whole world into Texas, and each "family" of 4 would get 1/4 acre.

By the way, if Americans use so many resources, it's because they PAY for them. This moves hard cash into poor countries, which desperately need it. If we were to stop "consuming" so much, who will take up the slack, and consume for us? Because if the persian rug goes unsold, the Persian who made it goes unpaid and his/her children go unfed.

And don't jump on me for being the fatcat uncaring gluttonous American. You don't know me and you don't know what part of my income I give to relieve suffering at home and abroad.

Tired of nonsense,
Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 Nov 00 - 04:27 AM

There are records from an observatory on Hawaii which has been recording temperature for the last 100 years. There is a continuous trend of rising, with annual wavelike structures in the graph in line with the seasons. This rise pattern is matched by the increase in CO2 (possibly also collected at Hawaii), including the seasonal variations, attributed to the deciduous forests in the north. The overall rising trend is also matched (without seasonal ups and downs) by the increase in industrialisation). This may not be proof, but looks like good epidemiology. I learned this from a lecture presented to the Open University Geological Society a few years ago, and it was presented with references, but I am afraid I cannot recall them, or the lecturer.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: GUEST,Andy Doherty, Cary, NC
Date: 25 Nov 00 - 07:05 AM

Most of the people in America (North America, anyway) are from somewhere else. So you can spread the pollution blame around. The people in the United States and Canada are working feverishly to reduce the amount of pollution going into our rivers, lakes, seas, atmosphere and have made huge strides. The great lakes --notable Erie -- are nearly restored. Stringent laws have been enacted to control and dispose of hazardous wastes. When you're pointing that finger at "America," please note that there are at least three pointing back at you. Maybe you could take a peek -- or better yet, a sniff -- at the Danube. I read where our finny friends do not find swimming in the once magnificent river very hospitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: mkebenn
Date: 25 Nov 00 - 07:21 AM

Nice, Alex, and Andy is right, Erie was a cesspool when I was a kid, and it's the cleanest of the big lakes now. Other than that, I'm with Jon{yawn}. Mike Bennett PS. 'Spaw, prayin' on Karen

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: kendall
Date: 25 Nov 00 - 08:38 AM

Tell Karen I'm also relieved that she is ok.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 00 - 08:43 AM

"The smaller nations pollute far worse, on a per capita basis, than the USA at this point in history."

That isn't actually true. The pollution that really matters isn't about being dirty and messy and all that, it's primarily about burning fossil fuel, and that applies if its done in a nice clean way so you don't see smoke and get smells. And the citizens of the USA do min fact burn far far more fossil fuel per head than people anywhere else, both for transport and in other ways.

There are other factors affecting how the climate changes, and we don't understand them yet. There are other things that cause cancer as well as smoking cigarettes. For years the cigarette manufacturers tried to use that as a smokescreen to confuse people about the evidence that smoking kills. The same is happening with the petrol companies today and Global Warming.

Noone's got the power to force the USA to make the massive changes that are going to need to be made, except the Americans themselves. If there is anything that the rest of us can do to help Americans in changing their own society and economy, it's up to those Americans who are fighting to do that to tell us.

That leaves us with the job of changing ourselves, and that includes fighting any tendency to see the down-side of America as any kind of role model. Which leaves lots of things to admire and emulate.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Gern
Date: 25 Nov 00 - 09:54 AM

I'm a little late to try to get in a few shots, but nonetheless: GUEST's ineloquent sputtering is the equivalent of protesters throwing pies: pathetic and impotent, but it's easier to throw a fit than to intelligently articulate your concerns. "Americans" as a people are no more blamable than than the poor farmers burning down rainforests. The problems are systemic, and until ALL nations are willing to make hard choices, there is blame enough for all to share. I don't see other nations rejecting the properity that leads to pollution when they get their chance. However, we need to stop parroting industry's lies about whether or not pollution is a problem. There is all kinds of evidence supporting global warming and the destructive role of humans. Corporate-sponsored misinformation on this subject reminds me of the laboratory lies served up for years by the tobacco companies. Don't fall for this smokescreen. The problems are real, and should be addressed with something more useful than blanket condemnation and assinine generalizations.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Nov 00 - 10:27 AM

Kendal and Bill D, be assured the problem is NOT over-population. Anyway,your problem seems not to be how many people there are, but what they do. And OK, they chop trees and kill elephants, in their relatively impoverished countries, but they'd have done it in N America too if trees and elephants had got in the way. I mean people got in the way, and look what happened to them.

Your anxiety may just be recognition that if even half the world caught up with PRESENT (it's a moving target) USA extravagance, the planet would be fucked. (Well humankind anyway; good post Clinton!) The answer is not to cull the wannabees but for the richest countries to set a better lead.

The reason that's not going to happen? Short-termism. This is the real root of all our evils, and I bet it's this that inflamed and frustrated our flaming guest. No-one in authority can afford to act long-term. Any who try will just get blown away. Only two words count. Me. Now. The USA is just a product of this - not the cause.

But trying to justify the USA on the basis of what smaller, poorer nations do is going to sound to every other nation on earth like the states is in denial. There's no prospect whatsoever of change until the USA can heed its own governmental reports and admit it's on the wrong track.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: kendall
Date: 25 Nov 00 - 10:40 AM

Talk to any professor of geography, he/she will tell you, its over population. You are right in your statement that it is what they do that causes the damage. They must cut the rain forest down to make room for more and more farms. More food..more people more food more people. That statement about all the worlds population being able to fit in Texas? Ridulous..theoreticly maybe, but how would they survive? You cant plant seeds just anywhere, and the tillable land in this world was all created billions of years ago..thats it..no more farmable land. Yet, we continue to make more people. It's a dirty bird that beshits its own nest. And, like it or not the USA does its share. Guest, you are preaching to the choir. This mudcat community is made up mostly of intelligent aware, responsible people. The hell of it is, there are not enough of us to change government policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Nov 00 - 11:03 AM

For those interested in the arguments but uncomfortable with the provocative title of this thread, I'd suggest going to the global warming thread which provoked "guest" in the first place, and which now has acres of useful stuff, thanks to Peter T, Spaw and Grab among others.

I'm quite impressed with the way this thread refused to sink to the level some thought it would go, but it makes sense to keep the debate in one place.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Midchuck
Date: 25 Nov 00 - 05:06 PM

Several good points on this thread.

It is correct that the U. S. "consumerist" society is horribly wasteful and pollutes unneccesarily to a greater degree than probably any other country. I would ask, however, how many of the people of other countries, who are outraged by this, if offered the opportunity to magicly join the American middle class, and live in a huge house in a cold climate with oil heat, and own a big SUV to drive three miles to the mall in, and have a big yard which they mowed with a two-stroke riding mower, etc., would refuse it on moral grounds?

I would also point out that by raising the point on this list, you're preaching to the converted - i. e., you're talking to a group of people who have, on the average, a good deal more environmental awareness and are more active in environmental concerns, and live simpler and cleaner life styles, than most Americans. By telling these people that "Americans are bastards," without making any distinction, you're likely to make them feel, "well, f**k it; if that's the way they're going to think of me regardless of what I do, I might as well live up to it..." It's sort of like the way I feel when someone tells a lawyer joke. I think, "I've been a lawyer for thirty plus years, and I've always been honest with people, and tried to charge them fairly - but I'm presumed to be crooked and greedy simply by virtue of my profession. Maybe I should have grabbed whatever I could and made as much money as possible and damn anyone else. I wouldn't be that much worse thought of now!"

Also: All environmental problems are overpopulation problems at bottom. If you cut the amount of environmental damage produced per individual on the average in half, you've only improved the situation until the population doubles. And America does have a relatively low birth rate, compared to nations that can't even feed the population they have now. So we may be dealing better in the long term, than many of the third world countries.

The basic point remains, if you want to change someone's attitudes, rebuking and scolding hardly ever works. It just provides a way for the scolder to vent. It is more likely to make the underlieing problem worse, than to solve it. American liberals and American conservatives share in a marvelous ability to ignore that point, but it certainly isn't an American monopoly. The opening post of this thread makes that clear.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Naemanson
Date: 26 Nov 00 - 07:36 AM

Wow! I'm impressed. Guest started this mess trying to get people mad and look what happened. Very good, Mudcatters! Way to go!

There are some very interesting points made above. Clinton and Troll came up with the sad old conservative argument that there is no hard evidence that industrialization is responsible for global warming. I'm not going to argue that with them. It is the same type of argument the cigarette companies used to use when they suppressed studies showing that smoking is harmful.

Rather I want to ask a question. If there is a POTENTIAL that industrialization is a cause of global warming why isn't that enough of a reason to clean up our act. Why do we have to wait for it to be proved? By the time the proof is in hand it may be too late to do anything. Or the changes we need to make will be too much too quickly and therefore too expensive.

Guest's other statement had to do with overconsumption. That too was dealt with rather well above. Consumption is an individual choice and in our capitalist society the consumer rules the roost. If the manufacturer believes an item will sell he will make it. If that manufacturer can make people buy something through advertising then he will make it. This applies to more than just the USA.

Overpopulation is a fact and a hard one to face. You cannot legislate the biological imperitive to reproduce. Those of you who have chosen not to have children are to be congratulated. Was there ever a time, however short, when you regretted that decision, when the old biological need made you think again on your choice? (I tend to believe there must have been for some of you at least but that is beside the point.)

As Kendall pointed out above the available arable land is a fixed quantity and what we can do with that land is limited. Technology could find a way out of that box, and may be our only salvation, but we will need to find that path groping through the dark sea of bodies pressing in from every direction.

This is because you cannot tell people not to reproduce and you cannot force that on them either. We will continue to reproduce until war, famine or pestilence cuts the numbers back. It's just Mom Nature going about her business. What do you think is the real reason behind all the conflicts taking place around the globe?

And so here we are on the road to. where? What is our future? I have an idea. We will continue to spoil the globe, people will continue to reproduce and die, the USA will continue to be the dream the others hope to achieve, either in their own homes or by traveling to it, and our children and grandchildren will have to cope with the problems we have handed them.

It may not be an uplifting vision of the future but at least it isn't Ragnarok.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 00 - 12:27 PM

"I would ask, however, how many of the people of other countries, who are outraged by this, if offered the opportunity to magicly join the American middle class, and live in a huge house in a cold climate with oil heat, and own a big SUV to drive three miles to the mall in, and have a big yard which they mowed with a two-stroke riding mower, etc., would refuse it on moral grounds?"

I don't know about doing it on moral grounds, but I wouldn't want that myself. If it was the price I had to pay for not being hungry and honeless and so forth, I'd pay it. But it wouldn't be my first choice by a long way.

There are overpopulation problems - but's that's not the heart of it. There is's 4% of the worlds population in the USA, and causing 24% of the world's CO2 pollution. That's the biggest cause of global warming, and it's not because the USA is overpopulated. Motes and beams, motes and beams.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Nov 00 - 02:06 PM

Quote: And the citizens of the USA do min fact burn far far more fossil fuel per head (italics mine) than people anywhere else, both for transport and in other ways. Enquote

McGrath, how does the UK produce electricity? With what does it heat its homes and factories? I'm aware that London, for instance, has drastically changed its habits and the air is much cleaner as a result. But is this true for the kingdom throughout?

#2: With what are the UK's highway vehicles powered? And the same question regarding trains and boats?

If the UK and/or Europe has indeed found a way to cut reliance on fossil fuels, then we in the US need that information. Given a clear vision, the US people have been known in the past to chart a different course, and we can do it again...

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 00 - 04:34 PM

The UK carbon dioxide pollution is far too high. But per head of population it is half that of the USA.

But it's not true actually that the USA is the worst offender per head of population - that distinction belongs to the United Arab Emirates, though there's not a lot in it. But of coiurse the USA has a lot more heads of population.

That fact comes from ecoworld.com, which has all kinds of fascinating stuff. And it's American, so far as I can see. Americans are the worst polluteors, but also provide some of the strongest voices against pollution.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Naemanson
Date: 26 Nov 00 - 04:40 PM

I don't see any need to argue over WHO pollutes more. The question is how to reduce pollution overall. Here in the US we need to convert to more public transportation.
BUT - we can't because our cities have grown up based on idividuals with cars.

People in general need to reduce the amount of trash we produce.
BUT - we can't because manufacturers sell things based on the packaging, and we buy it.

Everything is connected. Everything leans on everything else. You cannot change one thing and hope that will do the trick. The whole ball of wax has to be changged and that is impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Nov 00 - 05:36 PM

McGrath, thanks. But I really would like to have the questions answered as to the types of fuel the UK uses.

I would also welcome information on other countries. How is your energy generated?

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 00 - 08:03 PM

Mostly natural gas, including most of the power stations. Which isn't a good idea. That isn't bwhere the difference lies, it's more in cars using less petrol, and people driving less. It'd be possible to get most of the energy from wind and wave power if there was the political will to do it. That site probably has in it, or in its links, most of the info anyone could want about these things.

And Naemanson, impossible no, very difficult yes. Whatever happens the whole ball of wax is going to change. When it gets hot enough the wax melts, however messy and inconvenient.

Improved public transport is one answer. Staying where you are most of the time is another. The Internet means that there's no need for lots of work commuting to be done. "Biomass" could supply enormous amounts of energy, as could wind and solar power. Wasteful packaging could be wiped out just like that, if people wanted it, and that is the kind of change that could happen, and there are entrepreneurs around who probably have the intelligence to know they could make a packet out of getting rid of the packets.

And so on and so forth. Lots of little things adding up to a big thing. Possible. But probably it won't happen till things are a lot worse, and a few countries have vanished from the globe.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: kendall
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 08:33 AM

You have a point McGrath, but, let's not forget about the rape of the rain forest. Not only are they killing it to the tune of thousands of acres per month, but, burning it as well. It is well known that the soil there is poor, and, they have to move on every 2 or 3 years because crops totally deplete it. Then, all thay have left is bare unfertile ground which is subject to erosion. This is what happened in Etheopia and Somalia..they literally wore out their land. That rain forest is the "lungs" of the planet. How many of us have purchased things like nuts from the rain forest?

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Naemanson
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 12:33 PM

You know, we United Statesians are taking it on the chin in this thread but the original poster said he was pissed off at "America". Where are the Canadians? And the Mexicans? Aren't they Americans as well?

Yeah, sure, the US has usurped the name of the two continents and even the hemisphere but that doesn't mean the rest of you have to buy into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Ringer
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 12:52 PM

(Sorry, I've been off the air for some time.) Clinton Hammond said, And hopefully, for the sake of the planet, that'll be the last time that evolution ever decides to deal the consiousness card...

But it seems to me that it's only consciousness observing it that gives any significance at all to whether the Earth is forested or desert, over- or under-populated, clean or polluted. Without people who gives a dicky-bird what the planet is like?

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: GUEST,Frankham
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 01:07 PM

The problem with being pissed off at a country is that nothing gets done this way. It becomes impotent anger. The best thing is to offer insights or solutions. Some of them may be workable for example solar power. In America, there are many of us who do not like the powerful lobbies we find in Washington that dictate environmental policies. Our friends from across the pond need to know that not all Americans agree with the way political business is conducted.

For that matter, there is a model of this kind of corruption that we find in the music business as well. A mindless populace is sold a bill of goods from powerful interests such as the leading record industries who really do not have the cultural life of the public in mind when they hock their product.

The sams thing occurs in the business-oriented community of America but there are exceptions and we need to have a voice in this. Being pissed off doesn't solve problems but committment and thoughtful planning to overcome these deficiencies do.

I guess I'm back to being a Guest again. Must have gotten knocked off the list for being too outspoken.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Margo
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 01:29 PM

Well Mr. Finger Pointer, scientists still maintain that the recent warming trend is well within the range of natural variability. A Gallup poll found that only 17 percent of the members of the Meteorological Society and the Geophysical Society believe that the warming trend of the 20th century is a result of greenhouse gas emissions. Data also exist to refute global warming. NASA satellite measurements show no net warming over the last two decades, and December 1997 was the coldest month on record. So Nyah

Margo

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 01:53 PM

Perhaps GUEST is not aware that for many years, many people have pushed the idea of alternative fuels here in the USA - but they get swept under the rug because the crude oil industry makes a LOT of money, and is very powerful at that. I would like to point out that the crude oil industry is not exclusive to the United States.

Mister's grandpa, who was a tool and die maker years ago (now deceased) had a design for a carburetor that would allow a car to get 50 mpg. Someone broke into his shop and stole it. He's not the only one either - it wouldn't be that big of a deal to design a good, solid, powerful engine that's also fuel-efficient - but because the oil industry is so powerful itself, such a thing is not likely to get off the ground soon.

There's lots of folks here that use solar energy to heat and power their homes. We could all be doing it but the problem is that in the short-term, solar panels are damned expensive.

We could be growing hemp as a fiber plant. Takes up less room than trees, grows and regrows faster, great for clothing, ropes, and paper. Paper! But no. We can't do that because some people like to get stoned. Never mind that not all types of hemp contain THC.

We have tried in this country. We're still trying. Trouble is, sometimes there's an awful lot of red tape to go through.

Forgive me if I'm wrong about this, but all humans are consumers, aren't they? How do I know if I'm over-consuming? Is it wrong for me to eat three times a day? I try not to waste any food. If something does chance to go bad in my fridge, guess what? I have a compost heap in the garden. Am I over-consuming because I buy real food and not mac & cheese in a box? But then I have to throw away the box, don't I? Should I cease bathing altogether to save water? Should I kill my pets so I don't have to buy animal food? Or maybe I should just let them run wild and forage for themselves.

I spent a lot of money on gas last month. I thought, damn, I bought a lot of gas! But no..... the $84 I spent bought me less than 3 fillups. That's only 1 fillup every 10 days. Not much.

All humans have a stake in the planet, and a responsibility to it, not just Americans. Let me now apologize to everyone for having the great fortune to live in a prosperous country. I'm really sorry. I guess I don't deserve it. Merry Christmas to you too.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Naemanson
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 02:06 PM

Kim mentioned solar power and the expense. I agree it is expensive but...

I have a friend here in Maine who built his house largely from scrap and excess construction materials. His hardwood floors came from a local school, his porch was built from materials salvaged from the demolition of a couple of houses, etc. He lives way back in the woods, too far from the road to be able to economicly plug into the main system so he has powered hs home with solar power. The center of his house is a core of brick which houses the chimney and the cistern. Small solar powered pumpss circulate the water through roof top solar heaters to keep the water warm. Banks of solar cells keep batteries charged for lights. The water heater, cook stove, and refrigerator are run by gas. He and his family are very comfortable.

He is a potter and has a kiln. In keeping with his philosophy he built his kiln by hand and fires it with wood cut from his own wood lot. When he plans his firing he carefully stacks the wood near to hand and works like a dog to keep the temperature just right.

I am very impressed by my friend and wish more of us, myself included, could emulate his way of life.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 03:01 PM

Wow! Me too. Seems like it was Ralph Nader who said that if we'd been researching solar power 30 years ago, it would be a fact of life now. But too many people make too much money off electricity, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 03:56 PM

We did research solar energy 30 years ago. Or 24, anyway. That was a big thing under Carter's energy department. Reagan killed it when he took over, IIRC.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: wildlone
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 03:57 PM

Reading the news today it was said it was the French Minister, Dominique Voynet who screwed up the deal just as it had been worked out.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Penny S.
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 05:14 PM

Recent variations may be within the range of natural variations, but they tend to the upper end of that range. If there was no warming, they would be to either side of it. Much of the work I am aware of shows that overall warming will lead to greater variation in weather, with some places (the UK for instance) becoming colder, so colder winters prove nothing. The arguments I have heard are not about whether there is warming or not, but about its mechanisms. If it is natural, it is already leading to more serious weather conditions, and nothing we are doing is likely to be alleviating that. Any of you live in Florida, or the Keys, or those islands off Carolina?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Bert
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 05:17 PM

A friend of mine invented a solar air conditioning unit but couldn't get any backing to have it manufactured.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Rollo
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 06:21 PM

Why have we to discuss this? Guest may be principally right, although I am sure the country he lives in has its share in global ecological desasters. But his tone is infamous. Here in the CAT are a lot of nice and intelligent people, including americans, and I like them. I believe in democracy and I trust in their will to take their part in american society in order to better circumstances. I hope we europeans do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 07:05 PM

"Reading the news today it was said it was the French Minister, Dominique Voynet who screwed up the deal just as it had been worked out."

Depends which news you read. My understanding is that John Prescott leant over backward to accomodate the American position - or maybe that should be bent over forwards. It involved a pretty sizeable retreat from what had been promised by the Americans previously at the Kyoto conference.

Then he tried to steamroll the deal through at the last minute, without giving all sufficient details, and the French, backed by other countries, dug their heels in, because it was a compromise too far in their view, and would have legitimised the retreast from tghe minimal reductions that had been promised.

It's been suggested that any kind of deal would have been worth it, given the strong possibility that Bush is going to be sitting in the White House twiddling his thumbs for the next four years - but then the chances are that if he does make it in, he'd rat on the deal anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Amos
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 08:15 PM

The entire proposition of energy consumption leading to pollution is ridiculous. We have a pump parked in semi-permanent orbit only 222,000 miles away, if memory serves, which moves enough mass every day to create enough momentum to generate enough energy to bring every household on the planet up to U.S. standards if it were put to intelligent use without increasing the greenhouse effect or adding to the smog which currently surrounds our urban centers in thicker and thicker layers.

As for the lack of tillable land, I don't have hard numbers but I am inclined to believe that of we put half the effort into solving the technical problems of restoring arability to desert, that we put into policing the bad boys on the planet, we could make Morocco the greengrocer of the species within 20 years.

I think we are suffering from a systemic failure of imagination and a colossal stupidity about how to make systems support each other.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Naemanson
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 10:51 PM

Troll, you still haven't answered my question about polution and global warming. Why, if there is even a chance that mankind is responsible, doesn't it make sense to do something about it?

Amos, you should know that you can never farm the desert. This isn't because it is impossible because we all know it is. You cannot do it because you'll never get the environmental permits through the red tape!

Everything is connected. When you pull on one string to unravel the knot three more tangle just as badly.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: kendall
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 11:39 PM

WE'RE DOOMED!! (3cpo)

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 12:29 AM

I've been watching this one, and the finger pointing just seems to get more and more riduculous. I believe in Zero Population Growth, but I just couldn't bring myself to have NO children, so we have two. One for each of us. I have at least 5 friends who have none, so maybe that balances.

I live in Small Town, Wyoming, USA. I compost, garden, hubby hunts for meat (do we have to talk about Cervidaie--deer--methane?)recycle what I can, and give regularly to the local Thrift Stores.

However, re cycling in Small Town Wyoming is NOT easy. I have to do all the delivery, all the sorting, all the everything, and the local re cycling place does not take everything. It is a "handicap help" facility which does not maintain regular hours. I suppose I could just back up and dump the stuff and let them sort it out.........

Why should I save aluminum cans when it cost me more to deliver them than I can get? It's easier to just dump them in the landfill. ( I know, I know, I should because it's my DUTY.......) I can re cycle my used engine oil by giving it to places that have oil burners for heat: talk about pollution!!

We have NO public transportation. Yes, I could walk the mile to the grocery store, but how am I supposed to carry home 80 pounds of food? I can only pull one wagon. Yes, I could stop taking gigs that are not within walking distance--so there would be no gigs at all. The last gig we played was 60 miles from my house. So, we rent a horse and wagon for the sound system, and start 3 days ahead of time? I don't think so...........

So, heat. Yes, we could stop using fossil fuels. What is the alternative, given the fact that the government will not fund solar/wind power research? I have a fireplace, and we burn it regularly, thereby contributing to the "pollution count". We help cut down forests, and help keep the "under forest" in control by only cutting dead wood. It ups the pollution index, but it keeps my natural gas bill down.

If anybody has any viable solutions to these problems, I would welcome them. Meanwhile, anybody notice that Guest has not been back since (he) got (his) butt burned by some educated, intelligent people?

I guess I am just tired of being the butt of stuff because I am an American. Not like other countries don't have their messes too. I am just tired of being on the butt end of everything, and that includes e mail jokes about our election.

I didn't set the damn system up, and I didn't vote for either one of them, but I did vote, difficult as it was.

Sorry, rant off. Down, soapbox, Down!

I apologize if this shows up 3 or 4 times--kept getting Cannot Be Displayed.........

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Amos
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 12:35 AM

Sorcha:

Live well and live long, baby! But I'd look into a combination solar-focusing array and a Stirling generator. You could be off the grid in no time!

Love,

Amos

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:09 AM

Since burning dead wood just recycles the CO2, Sorcha - it's a renewable energy source - unlike oil or natural gas. Burning hemp would probably be environmentally better, since it grows faster, but you might have a few problems with that, especially given your husband's job...

The real answer to driving is going to be electrical vehicles, with the power coming from renewable sources, like sun, wind and straw. And methane from cowshit and so forth.

Some shops are going back to home delivery for groceries and such, both for stuff you buy in person and internet shopping, which makes for a lot fewer journeys. But the social arrangements to make that convenient for people who can't stick around for the deliveries still need working out. (I'd have thought something like a very large mailbox with a key system would be an answer.)

One technical gimmick that I really think could help would be a prminent meter in every car showing you how much fuel you were using at any time (and the cost) - like yiounhave in taxis here. Because when you slow down a litle and drive more carefully, it's amazing how the mileage-per-gallon improves. That was brought home to me during the fuel crisis we had a few months ago, when I found I was able to make a tank of petrol last far longer than I had believed possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Naemanson
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 11:44 AM

Sorcha, you need to keep in mind you are only one small part of the community called America. And the butt of the initial post was not you but us. You do a better job of recycling than I do so I am more the butt of that comment than you are. However, I do some recycling and drive the smallest, most fuel efficient car I can fit my family into so I am trying to some extent.

The original poster was trying to start a flame war but ran into the perfect retaliation where a group of interested intelligent people took his post and turned it into a serious discussion. Of course he didn't come back and we don't need him.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 12:33 PM

Sorcha's point is a valid one. Even though most US people live in urban areas, a great many of us live elsewhere.

Here in Juneau, we do some recycling but not nearly to the extent that southern California does, and the reason is that it costs too much to barge the recyclables to an urban point where they can be processed. Juneau does some laudable things. Our recycled glass (and as was pointed out above, we soak off the labels and wash out the interiors) we take to a recycling center where it is crushed. Some of it is utilized in sub-layer street construction. The Lions Club accepts newspaper and alumin(i)um at collection points. SAGA, a youth group, for $12 a month picks up bottles at your door.

But it isn't easy or cheap to do the 'right' thing. Even our cars here- when we want to dispose of an old wreck- cost us $150 to do so, and that's after emptying the gas tank and the crankcase and taking off the tires ourselves or paying more to have someone else do it. Dropping off tires at the landfill cost $5.00 each. Disposing of a refrigerator in a landfill costs about $75 ($30 to have the refrigerant removed, $30 to dispose of the refrigerant and 7 cents a pound at the landfill). Old kitchen ranges are a bargain- only $10.

The main reason I have these figures, by the way, is that I take care of rentals.

Like Sorcha, I choose to live in this kind of situation and it's worth it to me. Offshore islands have it even worse- they have almost no access to recycling.

In my own case, I sold my car when I arrived here 13 years ago, using shanks mare, taxis and buses and friends as needed, buy non-packaged items when I can-bubble encased packaging is the bane of my life- keep the heat low and unused lights off.

Southeast Alaska has never had oil or natural gas but we have lots of water for hydropower, with diesel backup for when bald eagles short circuit our system.

I guess my point is that any country is made up of individuals with lots of variables. Southern California where my daughter lives, by the way, has a workable recycling system. It costs you more for garbage pickup if you don't recycle, which is probably the way to go.

It's easy to point fingers but answers aren't easy.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 02:13 PM

......there is no word in the language of the people of the McKenzie River delta for the American Robin....... Ironic that his latin name is "Turdus migratorius". Of course, this now frequent visitor to the land of the permafrost could just as easily be called the Canadian Robin or the European Robin........

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 02:59 PM

Naemanson, your pal sounds a great guy - and proof that the pioneering spirit doesn't have to be destructive too. On your point about whether it matters who pollutes most. I think it does. Pollution, so far, has been inextricably linked with lifestyles even though technology should be enabling us to break that link. If the ones with the best lifestyles are going to go on wanting even better lifestyles (and polluting more) which is the message that the states (OK, Canada too) sometimes seems to be sending out, what possible chance of changed attitudes from those who are desperately trying to catch up? I think in the circumstances it is reasonable to expect North America to set an example.

Ebbie, if I could just chip into your exchange with McGrath, I think I've said to you before that your home town, Juneau, is memorable to me for having 29,000 people, and 29,000 vehicles registered for the road. Incredible! And that's a town where the farthest you can drive in any direction is about 15 miles!! The number of short journeys there must be a world record. Short journeys are the most polluting (see Spaw's posts here or in the global warming thread) and how many of them are necessary? And how many could be done some other way like cycling, or even walking? We've all got to keep asking ourselves these questions or nothing's gonna change.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 03:33 PM

Or dog sled! Yeah! People in Juneau should just use dog sleds!

Or does dog poop make methane too?

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: kendall
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 03:44 PM

Mine sure as hell does! whew!!

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:20 PM

The Guardian over here has been reporting on the difference between the opinions and practices of Americans, ie all you guys over there, and the opinions and practices of the American government, and is of the opinion that person for person Americans are probably among the better groups for thoughtful behaviour environmentally.

And couldn't those Juneau figures include emergency service vehicles, snowploughs and blowers and so on?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:24 PM

IIRC, a lot of the "vehicles" used in Alaska are snowmobiles. If used on roads they'd have to be licensed for use on roads, but they still are a heck of a lot more efficient and less CO2 producing than cars.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Midchuck
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:30 PM

IIRC, a lot of the "vehicles" used in Alaska are snowmobiles. If used on roads they'd have to be licensed for use on roads, but they still are a heck of a lot more efficient and less CO2 producing than cars.

Last I heard, most snowmobiles were two-strokes. That would mean that each one produces pollutants on the order of 100 cars. As opposed to my last lawn mower, which was a smaller two-stroke and only produced as much pollution as 50 cars. Or are snow machines four-strokers now?

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:34 PM

Okay, Peter, where did you get the "as much pollutants as 100 cars" number? I've never heard such a thing.

Subject: RE: overpopulation
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:37 PM

imagine yourself on an island..say 50 square miles....you have fish, coconuts, a small population of birds, some fruit trees...perhaps a few 'small' game animals...you are doing just fine...then there is a nearby shipwreck, and 50 families (say, 200 people) splash ashore to 'share' with you...well, each family gets a square mile of space..maybe...(mountains, gullies, beach DO cut this down..)...and no rescue in sight. They start reproducing...just how many people can comfortably live there? 400?..1000?...who knows? Does it depend on how far you have to go out to catch fish? On the fresh water supply? On sanitary conditions? On how much shelter you can build from the fruit trees?..(no wait, we have to EAT those fruits)...on peoples different ideas of 'personal space'? On seasonal changes?..............

You KNOW the island can't support 1,000,000 people...how bout 100,000?...ummmmm...not with no outside support for medicines, building supplies., etc....10,000?...Would YOU wanta live there? ........This is called "carrying capacity"...never an exact figure, but a way to describe limits, such as how many lab rats can live in a cage. (even with food and water available they do NOT have fun past a certain point)

so, my friends...the earth is only a BIG island with special properties. How many can it hold? No simple answer, it is true...**IF** we had perfect distribution of resources and the BEST possible recycling it is one #....if we are less than perfect it is another. And when you toss in that variable called "quality of life", it is still a 3rd #. It is projected that we may have about 12 billion by 2050. I, for one, am glad I shall not see that...I HATE it that my son might. My own opinion as to what is a reasonable number so that science and resources might have a chance to keep them all fed and sort of comfortable??.............we passed it in about 1947...2 to 2 1/2 billion.

Argue all you want, but YOU better be right about the # you choose...and no amount of religious quoting of the biblical passage "be fruitful and multiply" or economic analysis that claims that "growth" is necessary for a society, is going to help when you are struggling for a meal in the same way they are in Somalia. There are uses for 'empty space' and we need park lands and jungle. And I do not think I would like 'Soylent Green'.

The thing about 'carrying capacity' is that the upper limits MUST be approached slowly and VERY carefully!....If you guess wrong, it is not easy to back off.......so far, we are not doing that........

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:39 PM

Fionn, I'm still waiting for the definitive word from DMV as to the number of registered vehicles in Juneau. They promised to get back to me. (HA! Fat chance.) They did allow as to how it's possible that there are more registered vehicles here than there is in population for two reasons: Many of the islands near here don't have roads but some people keep a vehicle here for when they come to town. #2: Many people keep a vehicle registered in Alaska because it helps them establish residency and therefore eligibility for our annual Permanent Fund Dividend, which is currently up to almost $2000. This is especially true of military personnel who have been posted elsewhere, DMV told me.

Slight correction: We actually have 46 miles of roadway on the mainland, although 10 miles of it isn't paved, and on the island across the way is another 12 miles. They say that with intersecting streets and driveways we have more than 200 paved miles. Hey, hog heaven...

From time to time, the possibility of light rail is discussed, which would mean a lot more people wouldn't have to use their cars much and would also cut down on a lot of the parking problems. Most people don't have garages and have to park on the street because of our limited land. 'Juneau body' does not refer to people here.

But figure it out: we have three thriving cab companies with fleets of 15 or more taxis plus a couple of other single-vehicle companies. A great many people in this town don't have cars at all.

Nope, no can do the dog sleds. This is a temperate rain forest with rainfall of close to 100 inches. We also have an average of 103 inches of snow at sea level but some years it all gets rained away repeatedly. We do have a downhill ski area that is very popular and others X-country whenever there's enough on the ground. However, most of our snow is in the mountains. I wrote a song about us that I called 'Rain Country'. Get the picture? :)

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:40 PM

BTW...take a look here

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:59 PM

Ebbie, it sounds like a paradise. Someday I'll get up there. Sigh.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:03 PM

Bill D, that is a graphic analogy.

I am 65 years old. It's an amazement to me how much expectations have changed, just in my lifetime. When I was young, the oceans were considered limitless. I had never heard the concept of over-fishing. Then by the 60s I think we thought we'd be well on the way to multi-planetary colonization by now, relieving the stress on this planet. But here we are.

Here on the Pacific coast, where finding salmon each year is getting chancier and chancier, Alaska natives say that the reason is that herring, the salmon's food, are being decimated, that herring roe is hard to find. They are aware of it, in particular, because herring roe is considered a delicacy.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:05 PM

The population of Europe is in fact going down. There seems to be a levelling off process which kicks in when people reach a reasonable level of personal security. Overpopulation is in the end more the result of poverty than the cause.

Maybe there's a process of being aware of the environment and responsible towards it which kicks in at a certain level of personal security too - the fact that so many Americans are in fact concerned about this kind of thing might be a sign of that being true.

It had better be true. The trick is to find ways of getting that level of personal security without polluting the place to hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:21 PM

the fact that so many Americans are in fact concerned about this kind of thing might be a sign of that being true.Thank you, McGrath, that's about the kindest thing I have heard you say about the US! :)

Incidentally, southeast Alaska also does not have snow machines to any consequential degree. In Oregon, where I'm from, you see a lot more snow machines being hauled on the back of trucks on their way to the mountains in the wintertime than you do here. We just don't have much flat land at all.

Alex, you'd love it.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:58 PM

I have been to Juneau once...very lovely area...and VERY limited in carrying capacity. Houses go right up the hill until it is too steep to build...at least tourists can't just barrel thru in their cars....(don't think we drove but twice in a week...up to the glacier and to the airport to leave)

Ebbie..I am 61, and I remember the stories about the 'limitless' ocean and the vast tracts of jungle in Brazil and the new strains of rice that would feed us all...*sigh*

McGrath...the population of 'some' states here is going down, too...but we get VERY large numbers of immigrants (legal and illegal)from countries that DO have a problem...(one is just south of us)...and on this island we call earth, it is eventually the population as a whole that is relevant. If overpopulation in Asia, etc., continues, they will find their way to Europe...somehow...

We in America, being so large, have MUCH to do and answer for...but it will take SOME global inititives to solve it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 12:18 PM

Alex, if you ever get to Alaska, it'll blow your mind. But give yourself plenty of time - and don't put Juneau high on the list of places to go (no offence Ebbie!)

Bill D, people starved in Somalia for the same reason they starved in Biafra: wars, in which control of food distribution is used as a weapon, and crops are deliberately destroyed. Proving my point that the problem is not how many of us there are, but how we behave.

The overpopulation thing plays really well in Canada and the states, of course: the "haves" beginning to feel uneasy when they see too many "have nots" encroaching.

Far better than having to rein in a bit while the rest of the world catches up (which would result in declining birthrates, as McGrath has pointed out more than once).

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Troll
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 12:44 PM

There has been a great deal of talk about electric or hybrid cars taking the place of the internal combustion engine. What I want to know is, what is the energy debt for building and using these vehicles? The electricity to charge the batteries has to be generated somehow and that will require power plants which use mostly fossil or nuclear fuel.
While solar power sounds good at first glance, the cost of converting this nation-never mind the world- would be astronomical both in time and money. Solar cells are extremely expensive at this point and not terribly efficient given the time and expence of making them.
There is a "solar ranch" in the southwest (Arizona?) that I saw a few years ago on TV.Does anyone know how it is doing energy-debt wise?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Troll
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 12:47 PM

See? I CAN do a non-confrontational posting!

troll *** warn't easy tho***

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 02:08 PM

"If overpopulation in Asia, etc., continues, they will find their way to Europe...somehow..."

And very welcome they'll be so far as I'm concerned. It's going to be tricky not having many young over the transition period with the falling birth rate, and immigration will help smooth out the bumps. As the newcomers get more secure about not starving, their birth rate will fall as well - and since a lot of them will be sending help back home, over a period that'll give better security back there, and down will go the birthrate there as well, in time.

I'm not saying that overpopulation isn't a problem - but rather that, on the whole, it's an effect of poverty rather than a cause, and that it's environmental effect is lesser than that of prosperous western nations. And they don't come more prosperous and western than the USA. Even when it comes to the destruction of the rain-forests, that is far more to do with global capitalism than it is to do with subsistence farmers.

(And Ebbie - I think I'm about as anti-American as Woody Guthrie or Pete Seeger. Both of whom were often accused of being anti-Americans - by the kind of Americans that I am definitely anti. They are the kind of English and Irish I am anti-as well.)

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 02:49 PM

Alex, if you ever get to Alaska, it'll blow your mind. But give yourself plenty of time - and don't put Juneau high on the list of places to go (no offence Ebbie!)
Right, Alex- don't come here unless you like the beauty of tall, snow-capped mountains reflected in the waters all around us, lots of fishing, crabbing and shrimping, talented musicians and painters and writers and actors (5 different levels of live theatre), cool, sweet air, the prettiest snow you ever did see, the ocean at our front door and wildlife (bear, ptarmigan and porcupines)roaming our city streets, and music every blessed night of the week if you're so inclined. (Sorry if you didn't like it, Fionn! It must be that you didn't meet the right people. Try us again.)

McGrath, I don't think you're anti-American. In fact, you would probably make the very best kind of American yourself if you were over here. I just like a kind word from you about us from time to time!

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 12:45 PM

Can't argue with that, Ebbie. It's just that I got busted by a federal ranger in Juneau, for pitching my tent 20 yards the wrong side of an invisible line in the woods! (In March, for God's sake - I was the only person for miles around.)

How often do you get a bear in the main street by the way? I didn't see any of those things you mentioned in the Juneau area, but I saw a sow bear with cub scoffing a dead moose beside a lake (Mirror Lake?) near Kantishna; ptarmigan and porcupine by the dozen,caribou, wolves (at Beever Creek) and much else. You didn't mention eagles - I saw eagles (3,000 pairs of them, I was told) near Haynes, packed along the tree branches like sparrows. That was one of the most memorable sights ever. If the salmon are in decline, that'll hit the eagles too - and maybe the bears.

You wouldn't believe the hostility to Juneau in the rest of Alaska - they just don't know what Juneau did to get all those jobs that go with the state legislature. Do you know (of) a woman in Juneau called Sheila Nickerson? She wrote a great book.

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 01:26 PM

Fionn, I've forgotten the rule of camping in the woods. I think one has to be so many yards from a roadway, right? So as to not be visible. I think. However, on Basin Road downtown I've seen a number of tents- you probably just got unlucky.

Bears- we've got a lot of them. The police are not quite as trigger-happy as they were a few years ago. Killed only 4 of them in town this year as opposed to 14 in 95 or '96. The problem is when people don't secure their garbage- once a critter is a 'garbage-bear', its chances of survival go down dramatically.

You can try to do things right- keep your garbage can inside, or freeze odorous things, etc- but a bear can come 'round even on garbage pickup day and create havoc. This fall, I put my can out- a Rubbermaid snap-handle model- and a bear tried its best to get into it. There are holes chewed and punched all over that lid. But he didn't get in. I'd like to send a photo of that lid to the Rubbermaid company!

I didn't mention eagles, Fionn- but we do have a great many of them. I enjoy ravens more, actually.

Since the state legislature is in Juneau, it's fairly natural that that's where the state jobs are. However, a lot of the positions are filled for the session with people from out of town.

A lot of Alaskans feel about Juneau the way a large part of the US feels about Washington DC- it's out of touch, different priorities, doesn't understand other communities' problems, influence-peddlers are rampant- and our airport approach is too dangerous due to mountains and periodically inaccessible due to weather (but they don't mention the whiteouts up north or the many bitter winter days that you take your life in your hands venturing out of doors), it's not where the bulk of the people are, and they'd like all that money to come to their own town...Nowadays, we have legislative creep- where a lot of state offices and commissioners are being set up in Anchorage. So it could be that Juneau will eventually become somewhat of a figurehead.

Yes, Sheila N. is a prolific poet who used to be a neighbor. I think she's moved out of town. Did I mention there's a lot of poetry in this town? :)

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Really pissed off with America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 08:09 PM

Camping in the woods with the bears? Takes all sorts. Of course if you're out on sight of the road it's noty so likely to upset passing mortorists if you get chewed up. Could really spoil a Sunday morning drive. That makes sense to me.

Myself, I'm with the thinking of that young lad in the Lakes of Pontchartrain who explained :

If it weren't for the alligators
I'd sleep out in the woods.