BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked

Subject: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 12:23 PM

let me apologse, in advance, to any of you are offended by this thread. I know it is a divisive issue and that we have many from both sides and in the middle of this issue. Please do not read further if it bothers you.

Having said that, I am extremely pissed(US) off that Bush has wasted no time in immediately going after women's rights. How many fucking years do we have to fight for the right to govern our own bodies with the guaruantee that that right will always be ours? Being at the whim of any tom, dick, or harry who gets into office really makes me want to take to the streets, again! And, of course, he has to go after the poorest of the poor women in developing countries first:

Bush To Block Abortion Funds By Sandra Sobieraj Associated Press Writer Monday, Jan. 22, 2001; 10:51 a.m. EST

WASHINGTON –– President Bush has decided to block U.S. funds to international family-planning groups that offer abortion and abortion counseling, a White House official said Monday.

The action, which reverses a Clinton administration stance, will be among the first policy moves of the new Republican administration and was leaked on the same day that abortion opponents staged their annual march on Washington.

"The president does not support using taxpayer funds to provide abortions," press secretary Ari Fleischer said, refusing to speculate on any final decision to reverse the Clinton administration's position.

"It's an important issue," Fleischer told reporters. "Executive orders are possible at any time."

But a White House official, speaking on condition of anonymity, confirmed that the decision has been made and the executive order will be issued soon.

U.S. funds to international groups that support abortion had been blocked by former Presidents Reagan and Bush, in what became known as the Mexico City policy because it was announced by Reagan at a 1984 population conference there. President Clinton, an abortion-rights supporter, had restored funding two days after he became president in 1993.

Also on Monday, Bush was delivering a statement to anti-abortion activists marching on the capital to mark the 28th anniversary of the Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision that legalized abortion.

The written statement would be read, Fleischer said, by Rep. Chris Smith, R-N.J.

Asked why Bush wasn't delivering the statement himself, either in person or by telephone, Fleischer said Bush chose the manner in which to deliver his message and it "signifies that he has an important statement to make."

The politically and emotionally charged issue of abortion promised to test Bush's ability to deliver on his oft-repeated promise to unite Democrats and Republicans.

Since the election was decided, Bush has answered questions on the issue with a relatively tepid reminder: "As you know, I campaigned as a pro-life candidate."

But while he may not himself engage in the sound and fury of the activists who back him, Bush has nominated a staunch abortion opponent for attorney general, former Sen. John Ashcroft, and signaled swift action to reverse Clinton policies supporting access to abortion.

White House chief of staff Andrew Card served notice Sunday that several key abortion policies would be quickly reviewed by the Bush administration.

Asked about the recently approved RU-486 abortion pill, Card said, "We're going to take a look at all of the regulations. We're going to take a look at all the executive orders."

As for what the president might think of first lady Laura Bush's recent statement that she does not think Roe v. Wade should be overturned, Fleischer said Monday, "It's a personal matter."

© Copyright 2001 The Associated Press

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 12:41 PM

I'm sure that George W will personally adopt all of the unwanted children that will result from his actions.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 12:45 PM

Give him a year, Kat. Sales of wire coat hangers will outsell plastic. Poor women will die. Women who can afford it will travel out of the country. Or wealthy families preferring discretion will fund the trip. Meantime one smug bastard will be preaching birth control while another calls it sin. I think I am going to be sick. I spent hours and hours going through the "Blue Books" reading one horror story after another of beautiful babies who were burned, beaten, disfigured, raped, and worse by parents who didn't want them. If abortion is outlawed, who is going to adopt these children? Mind you they are not lily white. Where are all those parents desperate for children that I keep hearing about?

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 12:50 PM

AH! so THAT'S why he called for a day of prayer.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 12:50 PM

Well DUH! We knew this all along. See why I didn't vote for any of these nuts?

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 12:51 PM

We knew it was coming.........brace yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:10 PM

Yeah, Wesley...:-)

Sins, those people who want babies? They have ads in our paper in Wyoming everyday of the week, all year long because, of course, they know Wyoming is so white.

Matt, I thought you said you didn't think voting was worth it. Did you vote? If so, good for you!

It gets worse...at a Republican farewell for Clinton, i.e. "roast" Cal Thomas lauded Bush for bringing a "controlling moral authority" back to the White House and that goddamned bastard Bob Terrel of the "American Spectator" said he wasn't going to toast Clinton a farewell, rather he wanted to toast the Reverend Jesse jackson "for what he has done to propogate the race."

And these are the kinds of moral authority we are supposed to follow, that of bigots and racists????!!!

From Sunday's Meet the Press:

MR. ROVE: "Well, President Bush is going to do what he said during the campaign, and that is to build a culture of life, to find ways to make abortion less prevalent in our country, to make it more rare. He's going to look for ways to encourage respect for life, whether it's the life of the unborn or the life of the infirmed or the life of the elderly, and he'll seek opportunities to build that culture. Some of those actions will be actions using the bully pulpit, some of them will be policy. But the decisions-about making the decisions about whether or not to challenge a statute or a decision will be made at the White House."

So...it's a Culture of Life we're building?? With this asshole?

Where are we going to find the energy to fight this crap?

Thanks for listening..

kat

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:17 PM

add to this all the efforts he is making to undermine and overturn environmental rules and legislation so that the holy **BUSINESS** interests will be protected, and it is shaping up to be a LONG 4 years.

You want to drill for oil? Build a logging road in a wilderness? Seek relief from restrictive pollution laws?,,,Now's your chance!!!

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Troll
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:22 PM

Just an observation. I saw a can with a host of bumper stickers the other day-I live in a college town- and I couldn't help noticing the apparent contradictions of the following collection.
" Pro-Choice." "Choose The Vegetarian Option" "Peta" "Love Animals. Don't Eat Them" "Abolish The Death Penalty" "Meat Is Dead"
Am I the only one who sees the contradictions here?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: GUEST,guestguestguest(intruder)guest
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:25 PM

:::from the tall grass:::

uh-huh, uh-huh, i said bottom feeder, i meant bottom feeder.

:::looks for taller grass:::

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Matt_R
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:27 PM

Yeah troll, I saw one today on the way home, on the back of a female ECU student's car that said "Pro-Life: Protect the Rights of Unborn Women Too".

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: GUEST,Cheryl
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:28 PM

Kat, I sympathize with your feelings. Resign yourself to the fact that for the next 4 years, your f**ked and that there is nothing you or anyone else can do to reverse these policies. Hope and pray that during the next 4 years the economy remains stable, that there is no nuclear war or terrorist attacks on our country, that OPEC doesn't start another oil embargo, and that the status quo will more or less prevail. Then in 4 years, hope that the Democrats can get their act together and put forth a candidate with charisma, intelligence and intellect who CAN win a clear majority of the vote and defeat these Republicans who seek to send America back to the dark ages of their hopelessly outdated brand of morality and ultra conservatism. (Hilary perhaps?)

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Matt_R
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:30 PM

Also, on my friends (fellow ECU students) have bumper stickers such as "Vegetarians, They Just Taste Better" and "Kill 'Em All" (Metallica album lol).

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:33 PM

You see the paid-off local bottom feeders
Passing themselves off as leaders
Kiss the ladies, shake hands with the fellows
Then it's open for business like a cheap bordello
And they call it democracy.
---Bruce Cockburn

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: SeanM
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:35 PM

The contradiction in "Pro-Choice, Vegetarian, anti-death penalty" would be apparently about the same as "Pro-Life, Meat eating, pro-death penalty". The main difference would be when you define 'life' as beginning. If you define life as beginning at birth (or late in the pregnancy, when the fetus can live if removed from the mother), then the first does not contain any contradiction. The second however... Is a criminal dead at the moment he's condemned to death?

M

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: GUEST,guest(intruder on lunch hour)guest
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:35 PM

metallica stole that line from st dominic ---

"kill them all, god will know his own."

but my favorite is a group who CAN'T keep their own self-proclaimed rules setting themselves up on experts on how my life should be lived.

:::buys a gun, becomes sullen and suspicious of strangers:::

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:39 PM

Something that has disturbed me a great deal for some time now is that the religious right is SO GOOD at getting coverage that many, MANY people assume that religious = right = oppression = VERY BAD THINGS. They have put the bucks into ensuring coverage of their point of view.

The tone and extent of prayer that kicked off the inauguration really scared me. I winced, and I cringed, and I got mad, and I thought about it a lot, and I still am.

It scares me, first, to know the religious right (RR) is about to get us all, and second, that those of us who are R but not R will have a hard job to be heard and to help make change within the atmosphere the RR generates.

I feel like my voice of moderation and diversity and tolerance, already too small and quiet, has just been stolen out from my very breath and co-opted for a purpose I cannot place within my own moral compass.

I feel like jumping in the car to follow Big Mick and make it all stop as soon as it can be stopped. But I have to tend to my own patch here, or who will?

Make no mistake at least about where I stand, which is where I have stood all this time despite what anyone here assumed about me. I stand for all the choice we can think of having, for the personal responsibility that goes with these choices, and for people being there to help each other through the feelings and realities that are the result of our choices.

I stand there despite knowing from my own memories what the life of a fetus is and means, and despite holding all of human life precious. Because our free will is MORE precious. Without it, we are not human, and without being human, we can have no rights at all.

For those of us who are Christians, we must remember that free will is the first way in which we are made in God's image. We tamper with others' free will at great peril.

I'm going to be talking about that quite a bit in the coming months. Right here in the midst of Republican, conservative, rigid, north central PA... as a pastor's wife who has a certain place in the community, although it is supposed to be a very quiet place. They're gonna get me for it, too. And you know, it would be nice to be able to be here at Mudcat and explore these sorts of things without getting it from "friends."

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:46 PM

Then, Troll, we need to come up with slogans like: Every Child a Home; Open Your Heart to the Unwanted; Want the Unwanted; Money for Programs; The World will be a Better Place When Every Child is Wanted...

Somehow the same people who want to outlaw abortion across the board also want to shut off the money for the programs that make it possible to educate, support, intervene.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:53 PM

Susan, right on!

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:59 PM

ebbie, exactly on the slogans...what sense does it make to take away money to fund BIRTH CONTROL in third world countries, etc. by anti-choice idiots like Dubya? They can't have it both ways. If they don't want abortions to be prevelant, they need to make damn sure every woman and man has acccess to any and all birth control options.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Amergin
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 02:05 PM

Actually, I think alot of folks were praying that he won't fuck things up too royally....

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 02:18 PM

Oh, is that the annual winter day of prayer and unity we been holding all over the country for years? I heard he co-opted that too. It's one of three all-community services here, each year.

There goes the careful work our ministerium has done over the last seven years to make it safe enough for all the local congregations to participate.

Fortunately some of us doing the trench work at the local level have a grip on what we are doing, and maybe we'll be more effective than I'm figuring. I'll have to ask Hardi if last night's service even mentioned Bush or his agenda.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 02:21 PM

Kat, please take a deep breath: you don't really expect these a**holes to make SENSE, now do you? You never did before.     ;-)

Hope the jackasses that actually believed the "uniter" and "compassionate" crapola are starting to see the light, however belatedly, & are feeling a bit foolish & won't get fooled again in 4 years.

'Til then, "You Aint Seen Nothin' Yet!!" And the Dem's that are gonna roll over on their backs and approve Ashcroft should be drummed out of the party- bunch of Gutless Wonders.

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 02:25 PM

"Every Child Is Wanted"
If only...

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 02:26 PM

*SIGH* anybody read Carolyn Hax (Tell Me About It)? She asked someone "what crawled up your [bleep] and died?" My question is, who died and made the US the only knower of what is Right? I am reminded of the attempt to outlaw that stuff some Arabs in the Gulf were chewing (this was back in the gulf war days) because it has mind-alterning effects - I remember even more the Letter to the Editor about it, asking if the US personnel had decided to outlaw this "on their coffee break, their cigarette break, or their beer break" - I mean, opinions are OPINIONS, not facts! Not TRUTH! The fact is that I am pro-choice, but that doesn't mean that I believe it to be a fact that a fetus isn't a human being. I just define a pregnancy as a woman's body part, till it isn't any more. And I also believe that the anti-choice position is wrong. But I wouldn't say that it IS wrong, only that I believe it to be so!

Now, if only I could get my Mom to think like that... THEN I can begin work on the rest of the world!

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 02:37 PM

And to the MEN who I warned about their support for the green party... I TOLD YOU SO!
No passaran... Adlante!
Salud
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: BlueJay
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 02:41 PM

Well, here we go again. Some years ago, when asked about the breaking news that Nixon had died, I said: "Once Reagan goes, my life will be complete". I guess that makes me a liberal. Ought to be an interesting four, (eight?), years.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Skeptic
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 02:46 PM

Susan,

The RR uses the exact techniques of intimidation that you describe to great effect. Just like an extremist of any flavor. They rely, in part on the fact that most people are too polite and not willing to go to the mat with them. Try calling them a fascist bigot. Literally. Accuse them of being Un-American and quote the Constitution at them. Very effective (in my experience) at places like the PTA or in church meetings because then you have labeled them and they have to defend themselves. The best defense against them is really a good, offensive, offense.

Kat, I don't think Bush can do a lot about Roe v Wade directly. Congress could, but probably won't. Baring Congress passing a law banning abortion (that would almost mandate Supreme Court review), I don't see it happening. And I hope and pray I'm right. I suppose they could orchestrate a case and make sure a series of very conservative ideologues push it up the Court ladder to get it to the Court. The Court hasn't seemed all that willing to address the issue.

What I think he will do is pressure the FDA to reverse itself on the morning after pill, and use executive orders to limit access and funding as much as possible without actually banning them. Not that that's a lot of comfort.

A question: Why does the moderate conservative cant "except in cases of rape, incest or to protect the life of the mother" give them the moral high-ground? Coming at this as an insensitive male, I can understand the life of the mother: The other two I think I would have trouble with if I was anti-abortion. Incest has a higher probability of birth defects but that arguement leads to a subset of eugenics. Rape has significant and severe emotional/physical issues for the woman but that's not the fault of the unborn fetus. If abortion is, in their view, taking the life of a human being, why are the exceptions allowed and accepted? Morally as opposed to politically or practically??

The distinction always seemed hypocritical but rarely challenged.

In general, Bush is a pragmatists. He may pay lip service to the far right and do what he can for them. But not go out of his way for them. What he will do is push Big Business issues. Further limits to the right to bring suit. Requiring higher levels of proof for an employee to bring suit, deregulation and limiting corporate liability. Drop the Microsoft suit and so on.

Regards

John

PS: The sad part about the contradictions found on bumper stickers is that the people who own the car don't see it

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 02:54 PM

Am I the only one who thinks that a Presidential call for a day of prayer is unconstitutional?

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: SeanM
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 02:57 PM

It'd be an interesting call, Bert... Considering our President Selected was running on a heavily religious message, he COULD claim that it's time to end the separation and let Jesus be president for him. Probably do less damage that way.

M

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:00 PM

Hmmm. I suppose, Bert, you mean it's against that part of the constitution that goes, "Congress shall make no law respecting the institution of a religion..."

Don't see the Prez mentioned there.

alex

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Troll
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:05 PM

Ebbie, I agree with you.We have a case here in my county. They are willing to build a new juvenile detention center but not to fund the staffing of the youth centers.
DON'T get me started on adoption. We tried to adopt. Yeah! Right!
Those who support the death penalty and are anti-abortion seem to me to have a more logical stance than those who oppose the death penalty and support abortion. One side says that a criminal should die but an innocent unborn should live. The other says the child should die and the criminal should live.
kat, just what right does our, or any other, government have to go into another country-often unasked-to give out birth control and/or abortion information? In the places that we have meddled before such as the Sahel (Southern Sahara) our efforts have resulted in over-population and the subsequent desertification of the area. We need to study what the possible results of any kind of social or medical intervention will be BEFORE we sent aid of any kind.
Yes SeamM. The problem is one of definition. When DOES a life begin?
Re: Roe vs Wade. Bush cannot repeal it. Only Congress could do that by passing a law repealing it. The Supreme Court has repeatedly refused to reconsider it and if Bush appoints non-ideologues like his father did, I don't expect them to in the future.
Ishall now retreat to my cave, roll the BIG rock in front of the door, and await the ....well...the whatever.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:07 PM

Unless they slow down when they go back there to the rear to stick their heads up their asses.

Skeptic, thanks for validating my view in some respects, but I get more mileage out of being a subversive friend. Think of me as a warm, liquefying suppository up the butts of the worst assholes. When I love someone really well, accurately, they begin to chafe at their own rigidities. It's the slow way but I get a lot more done that way. They come to me after the kind of attack you describe for comfort... and find me, smiling, but expecting them to actually THINK. Very sneaky. Then they go off and start infecting others the same way. It's pretty amusing if I can see it happening, sometimes, and deeply satisfying.

Underneath all that rigidity is usually a terrified screaming infant trying to remain human. It's the ones I can't keep close to because I am outnumbered that get me... so I try to work up some partners in the effort, first off, to spread things around.

I'm just discouraged about it. I do actually know how to do this work and when the time comes to speak boldly I usually can't resist doing it no matter what it feels like will happen as a result. I'm not quiet these days because I am intimidated as much as because I have not been terribly well. I'm just tired, and not at what I know has been my best, and haven't figured out yet how to do it even smarter.

There IS a place for the approach you describe, and others have the gifts to take that approach. Mine just lie in doing things one on one most of the time, until I gain a visible role that facilitates positive exhortative speech to inspire and energize the good guys while I continue to build background alliances with the "bad" guys. I don't use these gifts as well as I should, but they are the ones I have.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:10 PM

John the Skeptic, thanks for your comments. I don't think Bush can do much to Roe vs Wade, yet, nor does he. His spokesperson on Meet The Press was quite blatant about how they knew the mood of the country would not allow that right now, but that through his "Culture of Life" propoganda they are dead set on changing that.

Guest, Cheryl, sorry I cannot resign myself to that for the next four years. If we all did that, he would definitely get what he wants. Thanks for your comments, though.

GrefF, thanks, darlin'...guess I needed a reminder, eh? Still won't shut me up, though:-)

Maybe I'd better take that deep breath and think about What Would Buddha Do.....

kat

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Troll
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:14 PM

I tend to be a bit firm in my beliefs but THIS is ridiculous. I have NO idea how it happened.
Very Sorry.
A highly embarassed

troll

Nothing a JoeClone can't take care of; extras deleted.
-la joeclone -

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:18 PM

Oh, I think you liberal women will still be able to get your recreational abortions. Bush is just going to make you pay for you own, instead of socking it to the taxpayers!

If any of you haven't figured out how to prevent pregnancy, maybe you shouldn't be having sex yet. See your doctor.

No offense.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:20 PM

The 'Cat is moving kinda' slow troll....I think you got the rock parked on the submit button.

Outside of that, just get me enough drugs to last at least 4 years. Troll, don't get me started on adoption either, but if we reduce the options and have unwanted kids......................Adoption laws are changing, they're just not changing fast enough to suit me and the problems of attitudes are lagging even farther back.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:20 PM

Troll, what I see is that you just keep saying the same thing over and over again. [grin!]

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:21 PM

I don't know exactly Alex, but I seem to recall someting about separation of church and state.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Matt_R
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:23 PM

Mandatory vasectamies for all male babies! That'll teach us evil raping impregnating bastard pigs!

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: SeanM
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:27 PM

Bert;

The issue is as Alex states above, that there shall be no law regarding the institution of a state religion etc. etc. etc...

It's a dodgy issue at best, as it all comes down to a matter of opinion for the most part... at what point does requesting a 'moment of prayer' go from being a personal gesture and become a governmental declaration? I suppose that Bush's prayer would all be considered 'personal gesture', as long as he does not try to mandate mandatory prayer via executive order or what have you.

M

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:38 PM

Yes - only Congress can repeal Roe vs. Wade. The giant BUT is that there can be no access to legal abortion if the clinics and doctors are inaccessible or unprotected. I don't see this president or his soon to be attorney general offering the necessary protection. The "abortion" pill is next to come under Bush scrutiny. A relatively private abortion alternative. Anybody taking bets how quickly it will be banned "for our own good"?

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Troll
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:38 PM

'Spaw, I know about your adoption problems.
The funny thing is, they will PAY you to take the kid at five or six- who has been damaged badly by foster homes and being shuttled around the system- that they won't let you adopt as an infant.
Same kid, same parents, same agency.
GUEST, Thanks for your input. It would make more of an impact if you would sign your name.

troll **A. Nonymouse is not one of my favorite people**

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Skeptic
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:41 PM

Susan,

The problem with your way is that all to often, by the time they realize what flaming assholes they are, the damage is done. My experience says it usually takes about 18 months for most people to run the cycle. By then, the rules have been changed, procedures put in place and doing it right after its been screwed up, takes, as the dictum says, twice as long and costs twice as much.

The RR feeds on its sucesses and ignores those who recant. As they view themselves as good people, clearly whatever they believe and want must also be good.

Doing it your way is probably more in keeping with your personal values, for which congradulations. Most people do nothing.

Regards John

All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:44 PM

How absurd:

1st woman: Oh, what do you do for recreation around here?
2nd woman: Me? Why I go get an abortion, just for fun!"

Sure, let's have complete celibacy...sure would solve a lot of environmental issues, too. Long live Mother Earth!

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:45 PM

Here's how it was reported..."Mr Bush's first acts in office were to issue the new White House code of conduct and declare yesterday a "National Day of Prayer and Thanksgiving" for Americans to pray for leaders at every level of government."

This seems to me to be going beyond a personal statement. His 'act' - 'in office' was to tell Americans to pray.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: SeanM
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:52 PM

Hadn't heard about the "National Day" part. I'd be inclined to agree - that sounds on the same level as school prayer, which has been shot down as a violation of separation.

"Freedom OF religion" should always take into account "freedom FROM religion".

M

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Troll
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:55 PM

I must have missed the Storm Troopers in the streets taking those who did not pray away to a fate worse than death.
I thought he was asking the country to pray. Thanks for setting the record straight.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Skeptic
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:57 PM

Another problem that's come out dealing with adoption is that a child who's has been socially ignored during the first 1-6 years of life have a much higher probability of fairly serious behavior problems. It looks like social learning, like acquiring language, has to happen in a certain sequence and during fairly limited developmental periods. If not, there is a permanant gap and dysfunction that is difficult, if not impossible, to overcome.

Troll - re your comment to Guest. After reading between the lines of your comment, mega ditto's. And may I add to Guest "Thank you so much for sharing that with us."

Regards John

PS: There is so slight consolation in that fact that a lot of us, over the next four years, will have plenty of opportunity to say "Told you so". Ain't much but take what you can get.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: SeanM
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 04:07 PM

Troll,

There are no stormtroopers, but the criteria that has been used in the past is that the separation is violated when a public institution creates a climate that expects a religion (i.e., a period or day of prayer). For those who do not profess a religion or are devoutly athiest, this creates an inimical atmosphere towards them.

That is how classroom postings of the 10 commandments, mandated school prayer, etc. have been found to be in violation of this separation. And that is how I feel GWB could possibly be seen in violation of this as well.

Note that this is not my personal view - I wouldn't give a rat's ass if he decided to announce a day of devout religious two-stepping and ritual bigass belt buckle sacrifice. However, within the "Great Big Book of Things That Have Already Happened", he may be in violation of precedence.

M

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 04:09 PM

Rats. Stormtroopers have such cool uniforms. They look like plastic and yet they "clink" like metal on the decks of the Death Star.

I'm with troll on this one (can you believe it?!). Proclaiming a "national day of prayer and thanksgiving" is hardly establishment of a religion, nor does it harm non-religious people IN ANY WAY.

To me it's a little humorous. It's like, as soon as he becomes president he yells out, "Zoiks! Pray for me!" Perhaps he realizes he's bitten off more than he can chew?

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: SeanM
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 04:17 PM

LOL... I'm not particularly for or against it either, I can just see Bert's point.

The only way this can really be seen (to me, at least) as negative is in the 'incremental' approach. I do have friends who are probably livid over this, as they believe (as do their far right counterparts) that any attempt (however small) to introduce religion into public policy is an attempt to destroy the constitution.

If I had been in his position making said announcement? I'd have asked for a national day of thanksgiving, and during the speech asked for prayers. That way you accomplish the same sentiment, and avoid the entire issue.

M

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 04:24 PM

nor does it harm non-religious people IN ANY WAY.

Excuse me, but establishing a 'National Day of Prayer for Americans' is estabishing that prayer is the thing for Americans to do on that day. This means that anyone who decides not to pray on that day is not doing the right 'thing' and the "for Americans" bit also implies that if you don't pray then somehow you are not American.

Didn't we have someone back in the Sixties who went on about being "Un-American". That idiot and his followers hurt a lot of people and it seems like we're heading in that direction again.

'You pray when I tell you to' Says the leader of the country.

It's a short step from there to saying "and if you don't".

I sincerely hope that everyone who voted for him, went down on their knees and prayed at his command.

Bert.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 04:26 PM

The object of having a society which is directed at life rather than death would be a fine one.

Having a world in which noone feels driven to have an abortion rather than give birth to the baby would be wonderful.

But that isn't going to be brought about magically just by making it harder for women to have abortions. In fact, ity couild well mean in increase in the numbner of abortions - especially in the context of other policies which can be expected to make it harder than ever to be poor, with the only alternative to that being to desperately hold on to insecure jobs.

And I do not think that it is conceivable to move a society towards an attitude which values every living person, without turning away from state killing of all kinds.

I think a lot of people are in entrenched positions with ill-assorted package-deal policies which they have fallen into the way of accepting.

The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend. And the friend of my enemy is not necessarily my enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 04:34 PM

Sorry, Bert, we may have to agree to disagree. It seems to me a HUGE step to go from saying, "please pray for your government officials today" to saying "and if you don't....."

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 04:37 PM

Excuse me for butting my nose in where i accept it doesn't belong -but I don't understand the pro-life stance in the abortion issue -when Bush has been happy to sign the death penalty and execute God knows how many when he was Governor of Texas -I've tried applying logic to it but it didn't seem to work.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 04:38 PM

Actually I think a national day of prayer at this time is most appropriate. Or a global day of prayer..

God help America! And God help the rest of us...

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 04:43 PM

OK Alex, you win this round. But I still think it's scary.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 04:45 PM

Ickle, it's related to the difference between killing someone guilty of committing a crime, and killing someone innocent of committing a crime. If you can't see the difference between these two, the other distinction probably won't make sense to you either.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 04:49 PM

Well Icks, as they say, its all in the timing. I mean its hard to think about killing a baby, even one that is only a tissue mass. Let's allow more unwanted and uncared for children to have to suffer the rigors of poverty and lack of love and wait until the pressure forces them into societal outcasts and the resulting criminal behaviors. Then we can punish them by teaching them other criminal behaviors by incarcerating them with better and more sadistic mother fuckers and make it impossible for them ever to function in society. And when that has reached a zenith and they have victimized enough innocent people we can count on them to commit some act so heinous that we are completely appalled. THEN we can kill them and feel pretty good about the whole thing.

Makes perfect sense............if you're an asshole.....like Bush.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 04:52 PM

Believe me I'm not pro-RR. I am firmly opposed to school prayer (except the uninvited kind just before a test, which, as Charlie Brown or maybe it's Peppermint Patty notes, will always be with us), and believe we should work on obviating abortion rather than prohibiting it.

But aside from the LEGALITY of it, I think the president's move shows very poor discretion. People are just LOOKING for him to do something that shows himself to be a rabid, fire-breathing right-wing fanatic, and this just plays into our hands. THEIR hands. I meant THEIR hands.

But, somewhat like Susan-who-used-to-be-called-Praise, I am in the unenviable position of being a Christian who is conservative theologically, but liberal politically. No party espouses what I believe in. Which makes it easier to not get taken in by any of them.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 04:58 PM

Well, as you are a Christian, then I can understand that you would not be upset by being asked to pray. But asking an Atheist to pray is kinda like forbidding a Christian to pray.

So, for a while, live with the thought of being forbidden to pray and see if you can see why Bush Baby was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 05:07 PM

No, Bert. Being ASKED to pray is not equivalent to being FORBIDDEN to pray. Being forbidden to pray is equivalent to being FORCED to pray. Being asked to pray is the equivalent of being ASKED NOT TO PRAY.

If the president said, "please sacrifice a chicken at midnight for my new foreign policy," I would say, "um, no thanks." Maybe roll my eyes. But hardly feel oppressed.

The constitutional protections against being made to practice a religion not of one's choosing are still in place, and are holding firm as ever.

So far.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 05:14 PM

Give it time Alex......Its early yet.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 05:22 PM

...The constitutional protections against being made to practice a religion not of one's choosing are still in place, and are holding firm as ever...

Not when the President declares a day for practicing religion.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 05:39 PM

Every president has done this. Look it up.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 05:41 PM

The death penalty is not always applied against the guilty. Don't tell me that America does not, as we have done, make mistakes in finding the innocent guilty. So, whatever the argument distinguishing the innocent baby from the hardened criminal, unless there is absolute certainty of guilt, the death penalty takes the appalling risk of being just as wrong as killing the baby.

I am also appalled to see that during the very long periods between conviction and execution, there can be deep and lasting changes in those awaiting death. (See the thread on the subject McGrath posted today with the link to the Guardian.) Where it can be shown that even in a state where no effort is put into rehabilitation. lives can be turned around to good, it seems hopelessly wrong to kill someone who is quite clearly not the same person who committed the crime.

I learned something new yesterday, preparing a sheet on Athens and Sparta. It seems that Sparta declared war on its slaves every year, so that the judicial executions by the secret police (krypteia?) of those who seemed to be likely to upset their nice little system would not be murder.

Being asked not to pray would be as offensive to me as being forbidden, perhaps more so, because it would use social pressures designed to be difficult to resist. So I can imagine that being asked to pray, when one didn't want to, for whatever reason, would be offensive. There are messages being given about belonging and not belonging which are inappropriate, and in the case of the USA, seen as being so at its founding.

Penny (signing off before rant)

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 05:44 PM

The death penalty is not always applied against the guilty.

Absolutely. Also it is known to be applied unequally between persons of different races.

Which is why I am againt the death penalty in practice, although I am not against it in theory.

People are imperfect. We are far too imperfect to be given the responsibility over taking another's life.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 05:51 PM

Alex, I tried to look that up but a websearch returned 240,000 hits, mostly from religious websites.

So, I'll take your word for it. However, does that then make it right?

Bert.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 05:55 PM

The thread I mentioned was the one about Steve Earle, who was witness to the death of a man in Texas - in his case, he admitted his guilt, and the crime was a bad one. But he had become someone else, through God. The account is ... I am supposed to teach children to use appropriate adjectives in their writing ... I can't think of one for it.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 05:56 PM

No, it doesn't. But that wasn't my point, really; only that it's no different than what's always happened. A lot of bluster, but no real attempt to infringe on people's right to not pray.

Believe me, if he really starts trying to force people into a religious mold of some sort, I'll be just as targeted as you would be, and just as vocal as you would like me to be.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: SeanM
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 05:57 PM

I can't back it up with documentation, but I'll wholeheartedly support the idea that most (if not all) presidents have ASKED for a day of prayer. Clinton did, after pretty much every disaster or major event in his presidency.

The difference would be ASKING for a day of prayer and MANDATING a National Day of Prayer and Thanksgiving.

M

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 05:58 PM

Troll, you said, "kat, just what right does our, or any other, government have to go into another country-often unasked-to give out birth control and/or abortion information? In the places that we have meddled before such as the Sahel (Southern Sahara) our efforts have resulted in over-population and the subsequent desertification of the area. We need to study what the possible results of any kind of social or medical intervention will be BEFORE we sent aid of any kind."

Are you saying that teaching birth control resulted in over population and desertification in the Sahel? If, so, please give references.

Also, what do you think of Doctors Without Borders? Should they be stopped from practising their humanitarian efforts because of the possible results of their social/medical intervention? I suppose we wouldn't want to provide any kind of vaccines to developing countries, either, right?

Have you read about the women in Afghanistan? Is it more correct to sit by and do nothing to help them when every girl born there is destined to either be left for dead at birth, kept in her house for life with no education, vocation, etc. until she is given to a man as a wife/slave and suffers from whatever abuses he chooses to inflict, often resulting in her murder?

Or how about the famous super model who was sexually mutilated as a young girl in Africa; who walked alone, barefoot, for hundreds of miles in the desert to escape her culture where girls are castrated as young as 5 & 6, with rusty tin can lids, then sewn up until they are wed, and subsequently after each birth in order to be "pleasingly tight" for the husband's sexual appetite?

Are you saying it is not okay to provide these women and hopefully their male counterparts with family planning methods?

Did we study the possible results before we intervened in Kuwait for OIL? Is a condom such a threat to an emerging society? No one forces these programs on anyone. They are made available. I do not know of any instance when our government has gone into a country and mandated birth control education. And, that IS what it is, education. How anyone would want to deny that to anyone asking is beyond me.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 06:03 PM

I am constantly amazed at how easily a guy of supposedly low intelligence has been able to twist things around for his party's purposes. He (and the republican right)has laid claim to the high ground of "civility", after his party has been responsible (at least equally with the dems) for eight of the most contentious years that I can remember. He claims to be a "uniter, not a divider" and then immediately sets out to drag back into the political arena some of the most divisive and heated issues possible. And let's keep in mind that these are social issues, not issues that of necessity belong in the political arena. And yet he's getting away with it.

There is no - N-O - great desire to reverse the policies of the last eight years. The fact that Al Gore is not our president today is in no sense a repudiation of the democratic policy of Bill Clinton. Four years ago Bill was re-elected OVERWHELMINGLY. Whatever reasons you want to give for the Bush presidency - backlash against the Lewinsky scandal, a weak and wooden campaign by Gore, the promise of a big tax cut, the Nader factor, Bush's "charisma" (oh, ick), or outright theft by the reactionary members of the Supreme Court - there is no mandate to return to the glory days of Ronnie, and Dick and George Sr.

GBush junior is extremely dangerous. He has started out by raising the concerns of women. He will soon be in full attack on the environment (in the name of business, industriousness, growth and continued prosperity!). A lot of people stand to make a lot of money.

But in the long run, he is greater danger to his own party and in particular to the genuine conservatives who, in their desire to regain the white house, put their faith in this charlatan. In the end, the COST to the rest of us for making his friends richer is going to be to high to bear and judging by this beginning, his end will be swift. Four years and out. And not a Republican administration to be seen for a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: GUEST,Rich (Bodhranai at library)
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 06:06 PM

If asking the country to pray is a violation of nonreligious people's rights, shouldn't we abolish Thanksgiving day for its blatant disregard for the feelings of ungrateful bastards everywhere?
I saw Jon Stewart on the Daily Show (Comedy Central news-based program) show GWB asking the American people to pray, and then adding "We're way ahead of you!"

I personally believe that any unborn child who chooses to be aborted should have that right. I'm pretty liberal on most issues, but on Christmas I held my cousin's baby daughter Serenity in my arms after hearing how the father tried to force my cousin to have an abortion. Thank God (dare I mention His name?) that she refused.

As I'm typing this from a public computer, I'll write back later with my cookie in place to assure you this is honestly me posting here.

Rich

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: SeanM
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 06:08 PM

Bartholomew... GWB is already going after the environment, just currently only in speeches.

His response to the California electricity debacle is that it is the result of bad law and that the voters need to deal with it (no argument there, he's right). However, the continuation is that according to his lights, the environmental regulations that have helped to rid LA of much of its smog problem need to be relaxed or removed to allow all plants to run at 100%, and that the Alaskan reserves need to be opened ASAP for exploratory drilling.

Oh well. I think that the greatest concern is that he's not even putting his own spin on the issues... from what I've heard in his speeches, they're direct feeds from the RRight and corporate interests.

M

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: GUEST,guestguest(intruder cringing in the DEEP woo
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 06:19 PM

the seperation of church/state (a MASONIC ideal, btw) was fixed in place because the Founding Fathers were close enough to the anti-(your hated religion goes here) riots and persecutions, et-freakin'-cetera that they UNDERSTOOD the need to make Torquemada's/Guzman's/(any frickin' papist, protestant demigogue's) hate-filled seperatist tactics and ways ILLEGAL!!!

when the rads (of any stripe) re-establish public flogging and breaking on the wheel, perhaps then you will understand too.

:::declines to quote a Dutch priest who survived hitler's try at this mode:::

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 06:21 PM

Bush, nor anyone else can 'force' me to pray..etc...but he CAN put people into important positions who WISH to tell me how to live, pray, behave...etc...and who can seriously affect my well being and finances, as well as the environment we all must live in...and I do NOT believe he and his crew will have MY best interests at heart.

(As to establishment of religion...the mere fact that someone placed "In God We Trust" onto our money and changed the Pledge of Allegence to add 'under God' a number of years back puts pressure on us to 'accept' that "God"...not Buddha, Allah, Mohammed, etc....but implicitly the 'God' of the Christian tradition is somehow running things in the background...as I have said before...I believe in freedom of religion...THAT is right! but...**"Freedom OF religion MUST imply freedom FROM religion for those who wish"**)

NO ONE should interfere with your wishes to worship as you please...or NOT have abortions...or to tell your kids about Santa Claus....but neither should anyone tell ME that my opinion about God, abortions. etc. is wrong and try to make MY position illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 06:24 PM

OK, maybe my take on the asking to/not to pray issue was a bit extreme, but I suppose I was reacting to who was asking, and the tradition he was asking from.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 06:29 PM

Uh, kat, before Troll pops in, we know you mean 'circumcision'. Castration on a girl child may be difficult.

But you're right- I too was wondering just how Troll is going to document that birth control causes a higher birth rate. Unless he means that they are so adamant in their opposition to our meddling that they exhort each other to get to bed? *BG*

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 06:36 PM

The idea of "freedom FROM religion" was invented by M.M. O'Hair, and is really kind of ridiculous. What counts as freedom FROM religion? If I drive down a street and see a church, O'Hair proclaimed, I have had my right to be free FROM religion infringed. She wanted an America where you could walk anywhere, at any time, and not see any sign of religion. That wouldn't be America. That would be Albania under the Stalinists. They killed thousands upon thousands of Christians and Muslims trying to create the perfect atheist society. And when you were burying your dead, the man at the cemetary asked, "Was he a Christian atheist, or a Muslim atheist?"

What do YOU mean by "freedom from religion," Bill D?

alex

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 06:57 PM

Ebbie, thanks, but I did mean "castration," although "circumcision" is also correct. Just to make sure I did a search on google which came up with several hits, including this one, which, imo, goes way beyond the benign implications of the latter:

"While the practice of male circumcision has becom less commonly advocated and recommended by physicians in the United States today, the majority of women in Northern Africa, the Middle East, and the Far East are still being castrated...women are subjected to painful operations which include the removal of the clitoris, the clitoral hood, the labia minor, and the labia majoria. These traumatic operations are most commonly performed on pre-menstrual girls from modest and lower economic status, by midwives, physicians, and even barbers. These devastating rituals of mutilation generally occur in their homes, local hospitals, clinics, and street booths. The tormented girls suffer extensive damage to their mental, physical, and psychological health, which remain with them their entire lives. The operations are also known to lessen the sexual excitement and orgasm for these women. This is perhaps the ultimate manifestation of inequality among the sexes, and the only hope to eradicate this horrible tradition is to globally educate the people of these unnecessary and dangerous surgeries."

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Stewart
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 07:18 PM

Last time we mixed politics with religion...
people got burned at the stake!

S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 07:25 PM

One of my favourite bumper stickers, Stewart!*BG*

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Lucius
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 07:37 PM

I guess that I'm more conservative than most. I believe in the right of the individual over the state. Therefore, while I personally would choose NOT to have an abortion, neither would I presume the right to make this decision for any others.

Of course I'm baffled as shit as to why our conservative Commander in Thief can cry for state's rights while circumventing the rights of Florida voters in the Supreme Court.

Sorry, I can't wait four years, how soon can I replace my "republican" congressman?

Lucius

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 07:55 PM

Spaw,
You left out one critical step in creating a monster. Don't forget to see to it that he reproduces at will and abuses his offspring just as he was abused. She applies just as well here. Then we can be sure the nightmare will continue.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 07:59 PM

"But asking an Atheist to pray is kinda like forbidding a Christian to pray."

I reckon that would be the best way you get people praying. Maybe they should try it and see what happened.

Here is the link to a piece by Steve Earle in what is niow for me yesterday's Guardian.

And here is a link to Tikkun, the San Francisco Jewish magazine in which it first appeared - which looks pretty good.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 08:03 PM

well, MT..as with all positions, organaizations, parties, etc...there is always someone on your side you wish were on the OTHER side....Ms. O'Hair was a loutish fool! She would have banned churches, if she could, I gather. I saw her on TV before she disappeared, and it HURT to garbage like that spewed to cloud the real issue.

I certainly do not advocate abolishing ANY form of legitimate religion, or restricting YOUR right to go to church and worship whomever and however you please...as long as it does not restrict MY freedoms or make other religions and NONreligious folks uncomfortable..(I refer to PUBLIC prayers at sports events as an example) I am as concerned that Jews or Muslims not have to be subjected to pleas "In Jesus name" as I am about MY hearing it, as it does not directly counter some belief I have.

I live near BOTH a Jehovah's Witness church, and the east coast Mormon Temple, and I get door knockers of both persuasions..(*and BOY are they offended if you mistake one for the other!)...I do NOT go 'round knocking on THEIR doors trying to get them to give up their beliefs. But they have, built into their system, the righteous attitude that they SHOULD be out bothering me and telling me that I am going to Hell if I don't change my ways. And, as you know, there are other denominations which do the same thing in different ways...(leaflets on my car window..etc.)

As a child, I happily recited the Pledge of Allegance...and then 'they' said it must include the words "under God"...WHY? I will honor & defend my country without 'God' to oversee my actions, and I will tell the truth in a court without a bible...and I will refrain from crime and love my wife and pay my taxes and give to the poor...and...and....

I know people who are Quakers..(or Friends...whatever) and various other religions who worship daily, and do not expect ME to do likewise. I have attended Mass, Advent services at an Episcopal church, and a rousing, shouting singing adventure in a black Southern Baptist church in Mississippi...and while I was in THEIR place of worship, I was quiet, respectful and non-adversarial. They were nice people doing what they believed.

However, if I met ANY of those folks at a public meeting not connected with religion..(such as the Wood Collectors group I belong to)wanting ME to wait while they prayed aloud and at length over my supper, I will object!

So...(you DID ask) when I say freedom FROM religion, I mean just that...allowing me to go about my business without having someone insert religious concerns which should be kept within their group into my daily activities....and in return, I will endeavor to ensure that they are ALWAYS assured of the freedom to have those private places of their worship protected against any attempt to deny them........

......I hope I came close to what you asked and what I wanted to convey....

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Troll
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 08:10 PM

I was not speaking of birth control in the Sahel but of intervention during one of that regions outbreaks of famine. Many lives were saved but now the region is overpopulated, famine is even more prevalent and loss of vegetation means more land lost to the desert.
Now constant aid is needed and the people must be persuaded to give up their nomadic culture based on cattle and goats and do...what?
The area is too arid for farming and there is nowhere else for them to go since living is marginal in the entire sub-Sahara.
Did we do wrong in the first place? I don't know. We interfered in a culture that took famine in its' stride and must now face responsibility for the death of a culture because no one thought of the consequences of intervention.
If you can argue against Kuwait, you can argue against the Balkans. If the Balkans interventions were ok because they were for "humanitarian" purposes, where were we in Rwanda?
So Bush proclaimed a National Day of Prayer. Congress has also proclaimed National Pickle Week and Mothers Day. Should I be outraged because I don't like pickles or because I grew up without a mother?
If you don't believe, then it doesn't apply to you, does it?
The believer has no right to push his religion on the athiest in this country. But the converse is also true. And THAT is the crucial thing to remember.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 08:11 PM

Yeah Sins......You got it. I have a beaut of a story to cover that very scenario. Ends up with the guy brutalizing his wife and scalding one of his kids so badly that the child (age three) screamed for 3 days before he died. Of course the Dad didn't take him to the hospital....nah, hung him on the back of a door and the other 6 kids would whack him to try to get him to be quiet. Then when he died, they had a big bonfire and burned the body. They had tried burying it under the trailer but it was hot and the smell became noticed. Do I need to tell you about the guy's parents and family life? Or do I need to tell you about his kids and what's happened to them?

I guess I didn't mean to sound so harsh, but I'm fed up and this complete fool in the White House is already ripping me a new one.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 09:17 PM

Bert.... I have read most of the above posts.

But I'm picturing you and me sitting side by side at a baseball game, in the cheap seats. Someone comes up to the microphone to sing the national anthem, but first they come out with, "Now we are all going to pray."

OK. It's you and me sitting there. What do you think we would actually do?

I think we would both crack up laughing at the idea that we could be made to stop kidding around about stuff for a minute, to do what anyone told us to do, and at the ridiculosity of prayer and baseball, as an odd juxtaposition of such a lovely afternoon MADE for playing ball.

I think I would rather think about that than get stirred up again today-- I've been stirred, shaken, and poured out thank you very much-- by what I have read in this thread. I see friends occupying what-if positions that bear no relation to what they encounter on a day to day basis in their own lives, as well as some others talking about hard realities they know too well.

But... it's enough, already, for me. Just speaking for ME. Going further with this.... it'd be enough to bring my energy to DO something about any of this to a dead stop.

There has been plenty of opportunity for friends here to find they agree or disagree, and enough gorge has risen to run right over the top. Do we need to restate ourselves more than a couple of times in order to find motivation to action? I mean, is there something that can be accomplished by everyone wrestling each other to an exhausted tie?

So Bert... care to go to a game, my dear?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Susan from California
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 09:18 PM

I just hope the RR doesn't become so emboldened that they try to take over my local school board again. We ran 'em out on a rail once before, but it is so darned tiring!

Nice job at uniting, Baby Bush.

As for the prayer in school stuff, the reason it is considered a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment is that students or people being asked to/ given the time to/ pray are captive. Students cannot opt-out w/out fear of being ostracized. People at a football game in Texas(or elsewhwere) have a prayer on the PA foisted upon them w/out their consent. Personally, I pray at school frequently, but nobody has a clue that I am doing it. (and I still have parents upset with me bacause I teach ABOUT other faiths.

I suppose Baby Bush has a right to ask people to pray, but as a "uniter" he should have been smarter, and more inclusive.

A pox on whomever implied that 8 years of Baby Bush could be a possibility :-)

The person way back there who wants to get rid of their Republican Congressional Rep -- Congressional folks have to run every 2 years.

Time to make dinner :-)

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Troll
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 09:44 PM

Uniting requires that BOTH sides make concessions.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 10:26 PM

I took advantage of the day of prayer to petition the diety(ies) to give Americans cynicism a-plenty to see through the crap that Boy George, the Commander-in-Thief, is going to try to sell the country like the second-rate snake oil salesman he is.

And instead of civility, give us civilty rights--the right to speak out and the right to have our votes counted.

Ambrose Bierce defined a cynic as one who sees things as they are instead of as they ought to be. (Hence the custom of putting out the cynics eyes to improve his vision.)

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Skeptic
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 11:09 PM

....you go away for a few hours and look what happens..... Note: The "we" refers to the body politic, not the clearly noble, self-sacrificing and altruistic spirts that infest this forum. (with a sometimes strained "BG")

The Bush ban on using aid funds for abortions or related counseling highlights the core of the issue. It's not about abortion, its a grand gesture to the RR to show he's one of them, as is the Day of Prayer. I suspect such would probably be held unconstitutional anyway. In the meantime it'll distract the RR while it gets fought out in the courts an GWB can get on with what he was paid to do: any and everything he can for big business.

All our give-away programs were and are short-sighted and ethnocentric in the extreme. The assumption is that we know what's best and with enough money and the right spirit, we can make it all better. I'd have hoped we'd have learned the fallacy of that from the Brightest and the Best nonsense of the JFK years. All the issues here raised seem to be symptoms. The cause is that we don't give money, time, aid or whatever to solve a problem but to salve our conscience. When vaccines and DDT and all the rest lower the infant mortality rate, but nothing is done to change the idea of having as many children as possible because 2 in 4 will die at birth or soon thereafter, we have done more harm than good. Rather than dying at birth, more children live so they can starve to death at 9 or 10 because the land can't support the increased population. Vaccines add to the effect. The ancient admonition to doctors to "do no harm" seems a long way away when there practical result is to help children take longer to starve to death. . Before we try to "help" (and I think we should), we need to sit down and think about goals and consequences. We need to answer honestly whether we have the right to interfere at all. And if we decide we do, we need to consider what the effects will be. Looking at the world, we've done a lot more harm than good. And as easy as it is to blame GWB, WJC, LBJ, JFK and all the rest shared the same blindness (or cynicism). (Aside re JFK - the Peace Corp probably came close - glittering gem among the dross?). Throwing money at the problems hasn't helped them, just made us all feel a damn site better about ourselves.

How do you stop female castration in a society that views women as chattel? That used to be the view in our culture. Look at how long it took us to start addressing the same issues. Not that we shouldn't try, it's a barbaric custom. So is slavery in the sub-Sahara but no one even talks about that. Or the 15-20% of kids under the age of 10 in some African nations who have grown up, literally, on the streets with no adults at all, no social programs or "safety net" anywhere in site and well over 50% HIV positive. People trying to set up schools, kitchens, anything can't even get money from private Foundations, let alone the Government. Programs to address these kinds of issues just aren't politically sellable; provide no political payback, don't make good copy. They are buried behind whether funds should or shouldn't be used to promote abortion.

Regards, if somewhat cynically John

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 02:02 AM

So John.... where do you put your energy? How's it going? What needs to happen next? What is going less than well, and why? And what do you know is true and good, despite what you see?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Skeptic
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 07:41 AM

Susan,

Sent a PM on this. Maudlin public displays are so tacky.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: GUEST,chullainn
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 09:07 AM

those of you NOT from n.c may never have had the privilege of seeing the following editorial cartoon:

scene: jesse helms as a child, out behind the shed, where there are many overflowing, overcrowded pens stuffed full of very, very uncomfortable-seeming rabbits. he is doing nothing to ease their condition.

two adults are watching from around the corner of the shed. one says:

"poor jesse... he loves to see them born but he doesn't like to take care of them."

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Skeptic
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 10:19 AM

Per recommendation from Susan - Maudlin public display follows:

My energy (such as it is) goes first to family, then to friends, then into the environment and the sustainability effort and civil rights. (the last three not always in that in order). What goes well is that there are, still, people who care, that I have friends and family who have a strong sense of community responsibility, whether rooted in ethical (philosophical) values or belief in God. That are "good" people.

Less than well is the growing idea in our society, abetted and encouraged by conservatives and liberals alike through laws and regulations, that responsibility lies outside of self. The list of good is not a what, but all the "whos". Friends, acquaintences and all the unknowns who are compassionate, concerned and involved because they believe that's what they have to do as a matter of honesty to self. The indifferent I can (usually) tolerate, the bad...no general rule there.

My mother and father taught me that charity (in the sense of helping others) and self respect are required, as part of being a "good"man or woman. It's what you do. But that you do charity without strings. (simplistic version, we all need to consider and accept consequences of our actions). You don't do it to look good in Church/Community/Newspapers. You don't do it with ulterior motives. You do it because its is the right thing to do and that should be its own reward. That without self respect, there can be no expectation of respect from others. Self respect is about who you are. Not what.

Regards John

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 10:37 AM

Maybe Part II of this thread could focus on what we are each DOING about the messes we get so upset about.

I mean, if you care enough to dump a rant, maybe you care enough to support one another in action.

Maybe if we looked in that direction and supported each other as vigorously as we disagree about the details of action, we'd see more progress.

Maybe.

Maybe's enough for me.

~Persisting Against Discouragement in Pennsyltucky

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Peg
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 11:44 AM

to the cowardly asshole who would not sign his/her name (okay, probably a he) and suggested women get "recreational abortions" because they have apparently not figured how to use birth control:

Fuck you. You're a moron.

My sister got pregnant using the birth control pill, a method considered 99% effective (guess she was the unlucky 1%). I know other women who have, too. This is not to mention accidental pregnancies resulting from using less "user effective" methods like condoms, diaphragm, sponge, foam, Norplant, etc.

Those method/user failure statistics exist for a reason.

As a kindly doctor in the UK told me a few years ago (after I got pregnant using a sponge AND a condom simultaneously) "sometimes it's just hard luck." Oh, and I was fortunate to have access to RU 486 in that country. Technically we do here in the States now, too, but probably not much longer...

Birth control is still in the stone age. But perhaps you, "GUEST", could try to move your mentality a bit further along into the present day, hmm?

Just because you haven't gotten laid in ten years, is no justification for your anonymous misogynistic venom.

Gee, I probably lost a few votes with that one...

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Peg
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 11:53 AM

oops; sorry for the double post. Lots of that here lately.

No problem. It's been JoeCloned:-)
-la joeclone -

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Bert
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 12:27 PM

You didn't lose my vote Peg.
Penny S. Re: to/not to pray. The thing is he didn't declare a national day of NON prayer. If he had, I'm sure all his RR friends would have been screaming about it.
WYSI me darlin, If someone at a ballgame were to ask me to pray, they would be exercising their rights to religious freedom and freedom of speech. I would have no problem with that, although, like you I would be slightly amused. That is quite a different issue from a president calling for a "national day of prayer". That's not his job. My thoughts are somewhat in agreement with those of Bill D. though perhaps I might be slightly more tolerant.

And WYSI again, what is there that we can do about it?

Bert.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 12:56 PM

Bert m'dear, over in another thread about the nastier side of life among we lovely beings called "humans," a discussion arose that bears here. Jon Freeman was asking, how do we know, when we protest a wrong that was done in the past, that we would not have condoned it if we had been there ourselves? (my paraphrase.)

I ansewred as follows:


From: WYSIWYG
Date: 23-Jan-01 - 10:57 AM

"Jon, I used to wonder about that "what would I do" thing too. Now I know that to answer this, all I have to do is look at what I care about now and at what I take bold action to support. "Do I grieve what others accept? Do I take action in directions that are not popular? Do I support others who are willing to get messy doing the hard work?

"Do you?

"Why would we be any different at another point in time?

"But more important, what is there in present time that you may not care enough about, to suit your own moral code? And what's in the way of doing more in that area, more bravely?

"I think it matters which questions we ask ourselves. We can come up with an answer for anything we decide to think about. SOME sort of answer. So... let's ask ourselves and each other the ones that prompt ACTION in ourselves. It may even encourage others to action as well, however poor our example."


These thoughts, and an interesting correspondence just begun with Skeptic, led me to start the PART II thread for this one- where you and I are now discussing a PLAN.

My clickies ain't been working so hot of late. Maybe you make one to my Part II idea, and one there that leads back here? Purtie please??

~The WYS

PS-- the baseball thing was just to give you a break from the grimness, so we could start thinking more... zippy.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 01:56 PM

1.Contrary to a former opinion--GWB is GOD---He picks and chooses who shall live and who shall die.

2.Zealots often become that which they profess to hate- hence extreme right wingers- They profess to love this country and it's Constitution and despise Communism, would deny people their rights to freedom of choice because THEY don't agree with that choice. They would deny people their right to have dissenting opinions because they disagree with those opinions. Sounds a lot like communism to me.

3.I always thought the idea of opposing abortion was to protect the rights of the unborn. Is it the child concieved from rape or incest's fault the manner in which it was concieved????

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 04:44 PM

One more important note about the original subject of this thread, the highlights are mine:

"The global 'gag' rule restricts family planning organizations that use their own privately raised, non-U.S. funds to lobby their own government on reproductive health matters, a restriction that would be unconstitutional if imposed here in the U.S. The argument that U.S. funds are being used to pay for abortion is patently false. It has been illegal to use U.S. funds for abortion since 1975."

Smoke and mirrors and girls and women lose, all over the world thanks to Bush, Dick, And "Colon"; what a Trio.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Penny S.
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 05:40 PM

Guest, of course it is not the fault of the embryo conceived as the result of rape or incest. But, you are not talking about a moment in time, you are talking about nine months of extreme bodily change, culminating in a labour of perhaps many hours, which can still be life threatening. You are talking about a life sentence for the victim - remember, those events aren't the woman's fault, either - of remembering how she was forced to undergo this process, risking her life, to carry a parasite she did not seek to carry, to feed it, to have it impose its needs above hers. Only a saint would love that child as it grew and stole her life, and I cannot believe an unloved foetus would grow as a loved one would. And how would the child feel - remember those teenage cries " I didn't ask you to have me!" - at its mother's response to its normal anger? Or, if it were adopted, at finding out why it was abandoned by its mother?

There can be no easy answer to these problems, but a woman who cannot face remembering the rape every time she sees her bulge ought to have the right not to have to have that man's will imposed one hers more than the initial act, if she so chooses. Personally, I think the normal post rape medical should include medication for STDs, including HIV, and next day contraception, so that the issue never arises.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: RedCelt
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 06:24 PM

A little behind the current posts, but it's one of my favorite soap boxes... (I don't have the texts I'm paraphrasing in front of me, so any mistakes are the fault of my rotten memory and worse typing) Please note the two pasted quotes from earlier posts... someday I'll learn enough HTML coding to do simple stuff like bolding or italicizing.

"Congress shall make no law respecting the institution of a religion..."

In his letter to the Danbury Baptist church, Jefferson stated that the purpose of this phrase was to: ...draw an inviolable wall of separation between church and state... NotE: not just Congress, but the whole apparatus of the state.

"It's a dodgy issue at best, as it all comes down to a matter of opinion for the most part... at what point does requesting a 'moment of prayer' go from being a personal gesture and become a governmental declaration? I suppose that Bush's prayer would all be considered 'personal gesture', as long as he does not try to mandate mandatory prayer via executive order or what have you. "

Any act done in this manner, and done from a position of authority, is legally considered to have been done under "color of authority" of the office, and in the absence of specific explanations, is interpreted as being in line with the common perception of his views.

Therefore, his mandate definitely CAN be seen as an unconstitutional directive from the president, and not a personal gesture. If he had stated "I will be prying...." that would be personal, but this is religious pressure under the authority of the states banner, however arguably well and nobly intentioned that it may (or may not) have been.

And one final note of hope... It may be 4 years to the next presidential election, but it's only two years until we can fight for Congress!

Jeff

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: RedCelt
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 06:27 PM

Ooops.. I meant to say that if he said "I will be PRAYING..."

freudian typoe?

J.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 06:28 PM

Golly, if Jefferson meant to draw a wall between church and state, I wish he would have just gone ahead and said that. We're stuck with what he DID say, which is quite different from what he is here presented as MEANING to say.

alex

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: RedCelt
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 06:31 PM

The difference between what was said and what was meant (Constitutional interpretation) is one of the main jobs and reasons for existance of the Supreme Court

J.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Skeptic
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 07:15 PM

Jefferson was expressing his opinion. Clearly some of the founding fathers shared some (but not all)of his concerns about the "wall". The situation isn't all that much better today as Congress and the Supreme Court have not quite gotten around to defining the key word in the Amendment: Religion. No fools they (well, they are but even broken clock shows the right time twice a day). A bigger can of worms is hard to imagine.

One concern of our founding fathers was that only by refusing to endorse any religion could they get key support needed for the constitution. Another is that they didn't want a monolithic Church to share power with. Unless they were in charge, of couse.

Red Celt - The other side of the equation is that the Supreme Court is also around to figure out what was deliberately not said by Congress so they could make grand gestures without ever having to really produce anything.

Regards John

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Burke
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 07:39 PM

Don't forget that an important part of that wall of separation is to keep the government from getting involved in the affairs of religious organizations.

I was trying to find out just what Bush did do on prayer & have found the proclamation. Here it is. I must admit I take offense at being asked to make it a day of thanksgiving. I am thankful to be American & feel blessed to be so, I celebrate that in November & any other time I want. I am not thankful for GWB's election.

It appears that this is A day of prayer not The National Day of Prayer that comes in May. It has been around a while. Most of us don't notice, my church never does anything about it. Yahoo has a enough links to give it it's own category.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Troll
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 08:42 PM

OK, so it's unconstitutional. So what. It's over. Why don't we concentrate our energies on something with a little more substance. We have global warming, the development of the wildlife reserve in Alaska, the energy shortage in California (which could affect all of us), a situation in the Middle-east which could blow up at any time, and India and Pakistan, both with nuclear capability, and snarling at each others borders. And everyone is upset because Bush called for a National Day of Prayer and Thanksgiving. This reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw once: Protect the Easily Offended. Ban Everything!"

troll

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Skeptic
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 08:57 PM

Troll, Re: Your Bumper sticker citation. That's exactly why they banned the protestors.

Your logic leads me to suggest that the same can be applied to Clinton's pecadillos, Ruby Ridge or the Holocaust.

Regards John

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: flattop
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 07:20 AM

I wonder if taxpayers would save money if we shot the balls off of suspected rapists instead of worrying about rapists' rights? Tax savings are good, aren't they?

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:41 AM

Penny, I strongly favor a woman's right to choose. I was pointing out the hypocrisy of the policy that they only favor abortion in cases of rape or incest--If your supposed to be protecting the baby and the sanctity of life-then why not all. See what I mean?

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Skeptic
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:52 AM

But bullets cost money too. Surely there are old manual bull castrators around people could donate (a little rusty but hey, we are talking about rapists). Plus I'm sure there are people who would actually pay for the privilege of being the official castrator for a State. (Either for revenge or kicks). We could even do it publically and charge admission. Or do a Pay Per View thing on cable. Not just save taxpayers money but actually make money.

That would seem to be in keeping with George "What's good for General Motors is good for the USA" W. Bush's take on the way things oughta be.

The big drawback is: What if it turns out the guy was innocent? Maybe a nice letter of apology? Free testosterone injections for life?

Regards John

Regards John

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:55 AM

Hell, send 'em to Wyoming and there's guys that can just bite them off with their teeth, as they do their sheeps'!

Maybe we could even ask that woman in the UK who did that to her new husband to come over for some more practise!

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: flattop
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 10:15 AM

Women who have been raped might also be innocent. Perhaps they deserve as much consideration as rapists.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 10:18 AM

Guest - you're point is well made. For some, logic can only be followed up to a point.

Regarding the founding fathers and religion: The phrase that I remember is "under God". Why is this necessarily taken to mean "Under Christ"? Many (if not most) of the founding fathers were Freemasons. My understanding is that you do not have to be a Christian to be a Mason, you only have to have a belief in a God. Is there anyone who has more specific information about this?

I have always understood that one objection to prayer in school is that it discriminates against those who do not follow a Christian faith. I realize it may seem like a minor point, but I wonder what those who advocate prayer in school would think if the prayer that was spoken was directed toward Allah, or Buddah, the Green Man, or the Earth Mother rather than to the "God of our Fathers"?

Personally, I feel that having a moment of prayer, or a day of prayer for that matter, is only disciminatory if a specific prayer, directed toward a specific deity, is required. Not believing in the existence of God (atheism) doesn't mean that you CANNOT and MUST NOT pray.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 10:38 AM

I get this vision of the President asking everyone to pray for what they think would best help the country. And he bows in head - and there's a puff of smoke and he vanishes.

But you Americans do seem to worry an awful lot about sententious statements by politicians. I mean, if the Queen and the Prime Minister were simultaneously to call for a day of prayer here, I very much doubt if it would make it into the next days news.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 10:38 AM

Continued HERE