BUSHwhacked Two!!

Subject: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 10:35 AM

First PartHERE

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 11:56 AM

McGrath,

A vison many of us share.

On taking ours politicians to seriously: I think a difference may be is that they take themselves so seriously. Are quite willing to create a bureaucracy and spend lots of taxpayer' money in support of what any reasonable person would recognize as portentous posturing.

And the question is would either the Queen or PM ever consider proposing something like a National Day of Prayer in the first place?

Regards John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Firecat
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 12:13 PM

I actually watched the Presidental inauguration, mainly cos I had nothing better to do, and the only thing I can remember from his speech is that "Something or other and abuse are not acts of God, they are failures of love" and I just thought " SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I actually ended up shouting "GET ON WITH IT!!!" at the TV screen!

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 12:44 PM

Firecat,

I watched it too. As a sort of penance for future sins. And later read the transcript, to see if maybe I missed something. There was nothing to miss. And in case you've repressed the whole experience, he never did "get on with it". About on par with most HS commencement speeches. No sound, no fury....no nothing.

But then, he tried to make up for boring us half to death by some of his cabinet appointments.

Regards John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Burke
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 07:37 PM

The Church of England is the established church, right? The Archbishop of Canterbury could announce a national day of prayer for the Queen or the Parliament or whatever. An additional division of power.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,Uncle Jaque
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:38 PM

You find the appointment of John ASHCROFT (and resulting confagaration in the Senate) for Attorney General "BORING"???

Really?

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:47 PM

I'm curious Firecat, how young are you?

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 11:04 PM

Oooooh, the murder/borts are whacking, bad!

Oooooh, the green weenies are whacking, bad!

Oooooh, the anti-Christian bigots are whacking, bad!

Oooooh, the union-thug bureaucrats are whacking, bad!

Oooooh, the lying, thieving RATs are whacking, bad!

Signed,

The People from the Red Areas of the map.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 11:23 PM

Wait! I forgot one;

Oooooh, the smart@$$ed, vulgar, lowlife, white trash dirtbags are whacking, bad!

(We should be able to kill a lot of perfectly good socialist giveaway programs and prosecute a lot of criminals in the next few months)

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ! Woooooo! He he he he he, no please, HAW HAW HAW HAW (gasp, pant pant) Whoa, you're killin' me! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Signed,

Ha ha ha ha ............(holding belly "oh, oh, oh")

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Matt_R
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 11:32 PM

kendall, remember the birthday thread? She's just turned 17.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: MarkS
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 11:45 PM

Calling for a national day of prayer unconstitutional?
Doubtful. Freedom of speech and all that.
MarkS

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: blt
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 12:59 AM

Computer problems and my job bring me to this thread a bit late.

Reading over BUSHwhacked I & II, I think how easy it is to generalize about complex things. Abortion, prayer, Christianity, the Constitution, atheism--I feel uneducated in many ways when I consider all the ins and outs of these issues.

Kat, you wondered where the energy would come from to fight against yet another wave of oppression. Where has anyone ever gotten this energy from? My feeling about this is much of the world has been fully engaged in this fight and by virtue of my citizenship (US) and skin color (pale) and class (middle), I've been exempt. It's about time I feel to be a part of something more worldly and human.

The Right and all that word implies (from Bush to the far Right) reminds me of that character in the film Yellow Submarine that snortled up everything, including itself. Perhaps that's an optimistic view of the possible future we're facing. It's oddly optimistic, because I'm not particularly optimistic about the next 50 years. The drive to have things at someone else's expense is an old problem, but it does feel as though that process has been intensified exponentially. I believe that those with corporate wealth--that less than 1% of the human population--are panicking because it's clear the supply is drying up. They are like addicts, indeed, they exemplify the addiction process because even knowing that resource extraction and over-consumption are killing the biosphere (which includes us), these profit-driven practices continue. I think Helen Caldicott observed in a speech that when gasoline-burning cars are aggressively marketed to the populations of China and India, the atmosphere will not recover. Period.

So here's the paradox--knowing that there are the corporate junkies who would like us all to become junkies and who will even go to court to force us to become junkies, how do I, with my 1974 Martin D-28 and my 49 year old life span, drum up the courage to just be who I am? And how do I express my love and compassion for all those who would simply just like to be who they are, with friends, families, lovers, babies, grandchildren, old scratched record collections, flannel shirts, hiking boots, and all the paraphenalia we cherish in our own right? How do I talk to the very injured teenagers and small children I work with, who live in very injured families and communities? How can I survive witnessing their trauma, let alone how can I help prevent it?

Personally, this is what I've decided to do, and ironically the decision was made a long time ago--it really chose me, I didn't chose it--and I'm not preaching to anyone, just describing what has been and is helpful to me in my life. I'm not exactly good at doing all these things, I'm still a practicing human being and I make a lot of mistakes. And this list is deceptively simplistic.
Meditation, Tai Chi, and Chi Gong
Hiking
Dance
Education
Singing
Hot springs
the ocean
the mountains
Relationships of trust and love
teachers
learning to be less judgemental
speaking up
writing letters
caring for my grandson
poetry and songwriting
political activism
change the strings on my guitar

Don't give up, the potential we have to be fully human is completely real, more real than the ghost-lives Bush and his ilk would have us lead.

blt

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 07:01 AM

Uncle Jaque,

The speech was boring IMO. It was fairly typical for that sort of thing but it didn't do anything for me. One way or another. The appointments weren't boring. Nor were they a big surprise. Consistent with what Bush has espoused throughout the campaign.

Norton and judicial appointments concern me much more than Ashcroft. What Ashcroft (if confirmed) does or does not do can be reversed. The damage potential for Norton and an ideological judiciary are much more far reaching. (Just as was/is the damage done by ideologically liberal judges). Please note I said ideological. A judge who is conservative or liberal who doesn't use their office to promote their personal agenda is one thing. Judicial ideologues of any flavor seem to be wholly in the "ends justifies the means" camp.

MAV,

And the rich will get richer, the poor poorer, the middle class will shrink and the election results remain under a cloud. Can a constitutional amendment to change the title of "President" to "Generalissimo" be far behind?

Regards John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,Stakly
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 09:25 AM

WHAT is that pervasive STENCH ?? oh, only MAV- someone forgot to flush the loo again.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 10:38 AM

Why does the so-called "Conservative Cavalry" keep forgetting the lessons of history? We had so-called "free market capitalism" and it did not work. Faced with a full-blown Communist threat in the early days of the last century, the Capitalists opted to incorporate a level of socialism. This worked pretty well for a pretty long time.

Now, once again, greed is overcoming common sense. In their efforts to squeeze every bit of profit they can out of our tortured environment and their poorly structured system and inherently unfair system, they are trying to go back to those glorious days of yester-year, when the captains of industry and commerce are free to do as they please.

LISTEN UP, MAV - It didn't work before and it won't work now. Bush is not smart enough to conceal the true face of corporate greed. Do you think the rolling blackouts in California are accidental? Or that they will go away? Or that people will continue to ignore them forever? Keep dancing you're foolish little "victory dance". Keep gloating your little gloat. Your ideas are old and flacid and they DO NOT WORK.

We all share this world. It is a finite arena, with finite resources. Unbridled exploitation is not a good plan. And yet it seems to be the only one you have to offer. If there was any place left for you to go I'd say "Take your bad ideas and GO AWAY." But whether you like it and admit to it or not, it is ONE WORLD. And, in the end, you cannot continue to pretend that you have a right to most of it while billions go without. Like the fall of apartheid it's only a matter of time before the balance shifts for good and all. The only question is whether the change be managed or cataclysmic. Your lack of vision, your greed, your refusal to accept the inevitable practically guarantees the latter.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Troll
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 11:00 AM

Bart, I believe that you will find that the problems in California stems from their deregulation bill which forbids the utility companies to pass increased costs along to the consumers.
So as the price of fuel increased, the utileties profits shrank and have now reached the point where it costs them more to produce the power than they are allowed to charge for it.
No business can survive under these circumstances, whether large or small.
I don't know who pushed the deregulation bill with its obvious flaw but I seriously doubt that any corporation would back such a thing.

troll

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 11:30 AM

troll,

Deregulation was pushed by the utilities themselves and groups like BOMA (Business Owners and Managers Association - who've made deregulation of utilities their primary lobby effort for 2001). One of Bush's biggest backers is a firm in Texas that buys and resells generating capacity. PG&E (Pacific Gas and Electric) was also a major supporter. Both have made major profits under deregulation. The utilities who backed de-regulation at the State level, tended to vigorously oppose it at the National level.

I read that aluminum factories in Washington State (who contract in advance for huge amounts of power at discounted prices), have stopped manufacturing aluminum and are reselling the power. and making more profit.

Another factor in the California debacle is that something like 25% of the overall generating capacity is off-line. In the days of regulation, such thing were monitored by the bloated, liberal eco-freak dominated bureaucracy that was eroding the profits of the utilities to make sure their weren't rolling blackouts. Saying that taking that much capacity off-line at the same time was done as a deliberate attempt to drive up prices would be unproven speculation.

Regards John

Guest, Stakly

I don't see any need for ad hommium attacks on MAV. His ideas speak volumes about who he is (or pretends to be?)

Regards John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,Liberal
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 12:12 PM

Wasn't it great how the Democrat staffers trashed the White house and offices? Stealing the W from hundreds of computer keyboards, putting pornography on the computers and in the copy machines, turning desks upside down and spreading rubbish about, writing grafiti on the walls with magic marker, cutting telephone lines, supergluing file cabinets shut, and much more! Great!!

That will teach those Republicans who is the smartest! They will know that Democrats are not to be trifled with! We can all be happy, now that we have shown them a thing or two!

What was icing on the cake is when Air Force One - taking the Clintons to New York, was stripped of all china, blankets, pillows, toothpaste, silverware, and anything else of value! Hoo-Ha!

This proves that liberals are smarter and more sophisticated than any Republican! Come on you people - lets hear how great you think it was. No need to hold back!

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 12:14 PM

Sorry. My last posted twice and I don't think I did it. I know a few days ago one of troll's posts hit six times then all but one went away. Anybody know what's going on???

Regards John

I think the system has just been a bit slow.
It's okay...gives us JoeClones something to do:-)
- la joeclone -

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 12:41 PM

Guest Liberal,

Does "disgusted" count. Vandalism and theft are vandalism and threat.

Interesting fact in my state (and maybe Larry or someone can confirm if it applies on the federal level).

Theft of government property (and stuff like the "W" and the stuff from AF-One would count) no matter what the value, is a felony. In Florida, when it comes to government property, the normal dollar value guidelines for what constitutes a felony are waived. The standard is intent.

If that's true on the Federal level, I hope the new Administration peruses it. If its true and they decide not to do anything, the guilt just gets spread a little further.

The cop-out will probably be that the "w" thing was just a practical joke and all the stuff from AF-One were just souvenirs. If the cost of the "souvenirs was budgeted and appropriated under the law and paid for from the Whitehouse budget, its just sor of tacky. If not, it's theft and needs to be treated as such (whether as a misdemeanor or felony). What if it is theft and the decision is made not to do anything?

Regards John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Pseudolus
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 01:05 PM

Pennsylvania has gone through deregulation and doesn't seem to have the problems that California has. Anybody know why that is? I'm not being sarcastic, I really don't know but would like to....

Frank

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 01:27 PM

Can we get a reference for this supposed theft? Unnamed flamers hardly make me confident of the veracity of their childish scrawl.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 01:38 PM

So far, in checking many of the online news sources I use, none of the above claims of vandalism, except the "w" keys from the computers, has been substantiated.

In the menatime, odly enough, our local rag has a front page article, from AP, about how "Enron CEO Kenneth Lay, who raised more than $100,000 for Bush's campaign, is a member of the president's transition team and attended his economic summit." Enron also happens to be one of the "biggest benificiaries" of the California power crisis. Enron bankrolled his political career more than any of the "single company." Of course, the president's office and Enron are denying that Dubya's rejection of price controls, which happens to be enron's take on things, had anything to do with his decision.

blt, thanks. I do need to get back in touch with those things you listed, which was pretty near what I've always used to keep the energy going. I think I've been in the wasteland/third world country of Wyoming too long...it gets ya down, sometimes.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 01:45 PM

Thanks, Skeptic. Well spoken.

I heard today that W. has suggested that environmental controls need to be eased in California to allow plants to work at capacity and that new plants should be built in Mexico (no regulatory problems to hold down profits there!). This is all very well orchestrated, indeed.

I haven't heard anything about the Democratic vandalism of the White House; such childishness and stupidity is deplorable. I guess I've been paying too much attention to the environmental vandalism Bush is preparing for, as evidenced by his appointees. The White House can be easily repaired. How do you restore wilderness after the oil companies have been allowed to do their dirty work? There's not enough oil in the Alaskan wildlife preserve to solve our energy problems, so why do irreparable damage for a stop gap measure? Oh yeah, I forgot. The investors in the oil companies involved will reap quite a windfall while the taxpayers are left with the cleanup. Such is life under a "business-friendly" administration. And it's just beginning.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 01:49 PM

Kat

www.drudgereport.com has a lead article with all the latest rumours on the vandalism/theft. Haven't seen anything else on that. The Washington Times carried the story about theft from Airforce-1. Their site is at http://www.washtimes.com/

Regards John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,Stakley
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 01:54 PM

John, if you must impress us with your latinate erudition please spell it correctly, right?

I see it as more of an ad humanoid attack. Someone as obviously ignorant, uneducated, childish, boorish, and ill-mannered as MAV's posts show him to be is rather a lower form of life.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 01:57 PM

Ah, the Washington Times. That bastion of objective reporting.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 02:03 PM

Thanks, John, I saw that one on the Drudge and have learned to be a bit "skeptical" when he posts such *loud* headlines. I would imagine, just as they sensationalised the Clinton's taking the gifts they were given by friends, from the White House to their new home, so might these other news items. If someone researched what others have done when they left, it would make an interesting comparison.

BTW, I said "oddly enough" up there, even though I had a typo, because the artclee which details all of that, on our front page, today, cannot be found on the AP site, not in a search on the writer's name, the headline, nor keywords. Makes me wonder if it somehow got killed and our paper caught it before the hatchet.

Here was my Cry in the wilderness for the enviroment pre-election days.

kat

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 03:18 PM

Guest Stakley, My motives for posting to mudcat are varied. Impressing anyone isn't one of them. I'll try to be more careful on proofing in the future, however as I meant to type ad hominem. Of which you have provided a perfect example.

I did like your take on MAV. Or maybe 'ad alien', as some of his ideas seem only distantly related to anything on this planet. Conversely, it could all be a big put-on. Sophomoric but there are elements that suggest a 16 year old putting on the world, very pleased with himself for fooling all the adults on the forum..

Bartholomew,

I agree in spirit but think that "slavish adoration and fawning" captures the Bush Administration's relationship to big business. But then so does "doing what we paid for", too.

Kat,

The Enron story is on the CNN website. At least as of 1509 today (EST). Shown as an AP story. Amazing that the liberal press hasn't given it more play. If it disappears, I'm going to have to take another look at my level of personal paranoia. I did save the page though.

Mousethief. And Kat,

Didn't mean to imply that the stories have any great credibility. As neither seem have shown up anywhere else, either they were BS....... or maybe there really is a cabal of liberals who control the press and they killed the story. Any bets as to whether that silliness becomes the latest "proof" of the great liberal conspiracy??

Regards John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 03:21 PM

LOL, thanks John, good to know the story really exists elsewhere...don't know why it wouldn't show up on the AP search at Drudge.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 10:53 PM

Prepare to ad hominize,

Well let's see.

As far as my inferior sophmoric humanoid mind can determine, you leftie democrats are composed of a bunch of unreasonable, condecending, self righteous, lesbian murder/borts, homosexual, organized labor/crime, self serving bureaucrats, trial lawyers, ignorant Palm Beach voters, illegal aliens, gimmie girls, "journalists", "educators", multi-pierced/tatooed/green haired "students" with black lipstick and nails AND BILL CLINTON!!!

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 11:21 PM

You forgot us feminists. Geez, ya even missed quoting one of your, I am sure, heros: "Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." Rev. Pat Robertson, one time GOP candidate

Ya, right...

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 11:26 PM

As to being "rude", you guys wrote the book. When someone on the right stands up to you, we are rude.

You hate American conservatives more than you hate the the communists, who murdered millions of people in the last century.

The "right" are hard working people who most likely live in the red areas, who go to church, play by the rules and want to be left alone. They are also the armed and dangerous Chamber of Commerce (a secret society of the dreaded private sector).

The only rude people I saw in the massive crowd at the Capitol were the ten nervous protesters.

There are only so many sources of objective journalism available in this country and considering the deteriorating CNN and failing CBS news, people are sick and tired of the same old liberal filter of the "news industry"

The Washington Times is the second most quoted paper in the US. The news gods (like Tim Russert) all feel compelled to read it.

Drudge has done us all a great service and has as good a track record as the so-called main stream press.

Hopefully Ashcroft will crack down on the democRAT mafia. Let the indictments begin.

Signed,

The people in the red areas.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 11:42 PM

I didn't leave you out, I said murder/borts.

Now go back to killing your husband.

mav

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 06:58 AM

Mav,

Speaking only for myself, I have never claimed the people who live in the red areas are rude, or that people in the blue areas aren't. Coming from a "red area", with most of my family and a lot of friends still living in same, good solid Republicans, Baptists and CofC members all, I look the liberty of sharing some of your insights with them. The quote I liked best was "Well, I agree with a lot he says. Obnoxious little SOB, though."

Sophomoric describes stereotyping and name calling, right, left or center. And is contrary to most ethical values, Christian or secular. Comments I have made about you reflect my opinion of your ideas and how you go about expressing them, not those of people in the "red areas" in general. Your attitude seems to be the opposite. To resort to name calling when someone doesn't agree with you is sophmoric. As is the unproven assumption of authorized omnipotence that usually is at the base of such actions.

As you are a fan of Drudge, What about his report of GWB's directive not to prosecute any of the vandalism. If it occurred and GWB decides not to prosecute, such a decision doesn't sit well in my "blue area". Or with people I know in the "red areas" either. This is man who took a solemn oath to uphold the laws of our country, who ran on a strong law and order platform and has nominated Ashcroft, who's in the same vein, as Attorney General. Actions seem at odds with his words. Pointing to failures by Clinton as justification evade the issue of character and honor.

Regards, John

Being

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 10:09 AM

Since when do you guys want to be left alone? You are at least as intrusive as liberals. You just want to control different areas of people's lives.

Yes, I hang in the blue areas. I find this end of the spectrum to be a lot more fluid, a lot more open to change and a lot more heterogeneous. It tends to be inclusive, and I like that.

Unfortunately, you find people on both ends of the spectrum who are manipulative, self-righteous, bombastic, unforgiving, short-sighted, small-minded, pig headed, shabby-thinking, intellectually dishonest and (in short) human. At least at this end, we are more likely to recognize our failings and give others the benefit of the doubt about theirs. And we have a sense of humor.

I'll make you a deal - GET OVER YOURSELF and I will try to do the same.

Peace and love to all you 'Catters and guests
Catch ya later
Bart

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 10:32 AM

"Theft of government property (and stuff like the "W" and the stuff from AF-One would count) no matter what the value, is a felony."

If true, which no doubt it is, that is totally insane. Anyone who ever took an unauthorised paper clip from a government office has committed a felony? Those whom the gods would destroy thet first make mad...

Youi do realize don't you that, while you're rolling around on the floor taking bites out of each other, the politicians from both sides are scratching each others backs, and drinking together and swapping dirty stories and generally having a high-old time at both your expenses? And no doubt chuckling at how seriously you take their alleged differences.

Here's a picture you might like - front of the new "Private Eye", with Baby Bush and Daddy Bush

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 10:39 AM

True enough, McGrath! And in light of the shenanigans in Florida & elsewhere, what makes anyone think that this "vandalism" wasn't staged by Dumbya's incoming troops?

What a circus!!

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 10:53 AM

Sheesh! How long do you think it takes me!

Very good point, Greg!

kat

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 11:13 AM

McGrath,

In Florida, anyway, the law excepts minor items of incidental value. (pens, paper-clips and the like).

I try to take politcis seriously, but never politicians. I think being mad is a prerequisite for office.

Enjoyed the picture. Thanks

Regards John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,liberal
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 11:15 AM

Relax. Bush says he will not prosecute the Clinton administration staffers who did the damage. The cost is now up to about $250,000.00, but at least we won't have to pay for it - the government will. After all, some Reagan staffer probably took some paper clips 12 years ago, so what's the big deal, right?

It was all in good fun and how could anybody be upset about these childish pranks? After all, the Clinton administration was populated by immature people.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 01:51 PM

Thanks ever so much for raising the level of the conversation, Liberal and MAV. Without your sniping and snide comments we could never have reached politician-level discussion.

Alex

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 01:57 PM

Guest Liberal,

Here I am, a liberal and I'm pissed off. At the Clinton staffers for doing it and at the Bush people for not prosecuting it. Or maybe the rules have changed and two wrongs do make a right? Did I miss that in my email.

Taking the "w" off keyboards was immature and silly but I could see how you might just shrug and get on with life. The vandalism being described is just wrong. The legal logic of refusing to prosecute escapes me, although the political logic seems clear.

On a 'silver lining' note, the whole incident (from vandalism to forgiveness) does help explain why 50% of the potential voters don't even bother to vote.

Regards John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 02:22 PM

Taking the w off the typewriters was funny, and well within reasonable bounds. The other stuff sounds pretty silly, Animal House style. Though I imagine a lot of it is spin, PR games to distract attention from something else.

But if you must go in for such an extended "transition period" it's really asking for trouble.

Why drag things out in such a ludicrous way? Here the Tories were in power for 18 years. Then an election, an overnight count, and they were out of their offices within a quarter of an hour. And that's pretty typical for most democracies.

I know there are some other countries which have a similar long transition periods, but so far as I can see, that's generally to give the crooks in power the time to organise a coup if the elections have gone wrong, or failing that, a chance to destroy the incriminating evidence. I don't think that applies in the USA - at least the first part of it doesn't.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,liberal
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 02:35 PM

Clinton could show a little class, and perhaps add something positive to his "legacy" if he would stand up and denounce these actions by his people, and offer to pay for the damages.

I don't expect this will happen, but it is part of his legacy.

I'll bet the Bush people don't do this when the time comes (in 8 years) for them to leave.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 03:00 PM

McGrath,

The transition time date back to the good old days when travel was by horse, wagon, stage, boat or afoot. It was designed to give people time to get top the capital. And to demark a clear transition date. I think someone brought this up about the electoral college dates in a earlier thread.

Silly today, but changing it would require amending the Constitution, which is cumbersome at best. That and most flavors of the political spectrum don't want to call a Constitutional Revision Committee to fix little oddities like that out of fear of what else might get 'fixed'.( Like the Abortion Ban amendment that floats around but never gets anywhere. The fear is not that it will pass, but that it will fail. (As polls tend to show). Ind of like campaign finance reform. The party that's out of power seems to be the one in favor of it.

Also, in the US, a lot of the White House Staff is hired and serves only as long as the current president is in office. Aren't cabinet members in the UK also members of Parliament? Do they appoint department heads and such when they're elected or inherit what's in place?

Regards, John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Troll
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 03:30 PM

I find it strange that there have been-as yet- on crys of outrage from my liberal friends over the trashing of the White House offices and the looting of AF-1.
But I guess it shouldn't surprise me too much. After all, you are all reasonably intelligent. You had to know what kind of people the Clintons are and what kind of people they surrounded themselves with.
But this last performance shows the depth of contempt that they seem to have for all those who supported them for the last 8 years.
And some of you STILL want Hillary in 2004?

troll

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 04:08 PM

toll,

Please get it straight. Al is '04, then Al with VP Hillary in '08, then Hillary in '12 and '16. By then Chelsea will be old enough to take over in '20. I'm telling you, four years of GWB will almost guarantee a good thirty years of liberals being in firm control.

While I am a liberal and we are acquainted, (friend is stretching it a bit), I was outraged. As an ordained cynic I can't say I'm shocked. Merely reassured that my cynicism is supported by facts.

What is your take on the Bush decision not to prosecute? Is this 'compassionate conservativism' or cynical politics? Which is worse? The vandals or the cop who refuses to do anything about them?

Drat! Back to the lessor of two evils thing.

Of course, Bush gave fair warning a with his recent pronouncement that the job of the legislative branch is to pass laws and of the executive branch to interpret them. Which shows a distinct lack of gratitude to the Supreme Court for ruling in his favor on recounts. And demonstrates a unique interpretation of the Constitution, to say the least.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,Liberal
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 04:18 PM

Maybe Eric Holder, who is holding down the fort over at the Justice Department, will prosecute.

Oh yes, I forgot that Holder is one of clinton's hacks. More joy for vandals.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 04:27 PM

JUst have a squint at that Constitution, and I couldn't see where there was anything in it that requires a lengthy transition period. It looks as if all thatbstuff is left wide opoen to be adjusted to meet the needs and preferences of the day.

And it used to last until March didn't it? And I don't believe it needed a Constitutional Amendment to bring it back to January.

Dumping the electoral college would be a different matter, but that wouldn't be required. After all when a President dies in office there isn't any transitional period. A period of readjustment, but that's not the same thing.

With us the political advisiors and tghe politicians, which include all the Ministers, get booted out. There's a permanent civil service who run things anyway - "Yes Minister" is said to have been remarkably close to the truth. Far more so than The West Wing, which they have just started showing here.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 10:29 PM

No, oh no, Skeptic!! Not Al!!!! It's gotta be Hillary...we can't handle another wooden al campaign fiasco!! Only if they listen totally to our Big Mick and do everything he says!!**BG**

Does anyone know a source for research into what past presidents took with them and how many trailer loads it took to move all of their papers to their presidential Libraries in their home states?

Thanks,

katrabble

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Troll
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 10:33 PM

Skeptic, dissapointingty, I think it's politics. I think he should prosecute but I don't think he'll listen to me. After all. I didn't vote for him.
I voted for Bugs Bunny.

troll

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 10:54 PM

But I thought Bugs Bunny got in?

I suspect that non prosecuting might have more to do with the fact that it would have been a circus, and made the Resident a laughing stock. There's been enough of that around the White House already I imagine.

I'm sure most ordinary people outside America will love to see a big state prosecution over this. It wouldn't quite be in the league of Little Monica and the Big Cigar, but it would be funny. And we'd be laughing at Bush, I'm afraid. Who better? As someone said in the election, it was the class swot versus the class clown.

It would be a hoot. Totally unfair maybe, but any press coverage I've seen has already treated it as a joke. I'm afraid pretty well anything Bush does is likely to be treated that way, so he can't give hostages to fortune. His best hope is to work things out so that people laugh with him rather than at him, which Reagan sometimes managed.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 11:30 PM

McGrath, Apologies with egg on my face. I typed before I researched and relied on my memory. The dates are set by Congress and were originally designed to accommodate travel time. Congress can change them if when they want. From your post, I'd guess that while we also have a civil service, more of our upper management types are appointed than are in the UK so transition may be a little more difficult.

And we just wish Bugs had won.

Kat, Prosecution or not, they done wrong. Much as a pains me to agree with troll, the former Clinton staffer actions was reprehensible and, if nothing else, Clinton (Bill) should say same. Treating the "w" thing like a joke is one thing. Treating vandalism as such is (to me) wrong, illeagal and politically stupid as it confirms the red area folks belief about the liberal press. I can hear the conversation now. "Yeah, they jumped all over Bush for a little drinking 20 years ago, but liberals trashin' the White House is a big joke." As a parent, how do I explain to my son (11 with a no-shades-of-gray view of things) why no one seems to care, either that they did vandalize the White House or that they aren't going to be punished. This is being turned into a liberal/conservative issue when it should be about a bunch of people most of us (red or blue area) wouldn't want as neighbors.

I think Bush decided not to prosecute not because of fear of laughter but because he'd look like he was kicking them after they were down. Not the sort of thing his type does. Not in public, anyway. I've sent an email to the Democratic Chair of the State asking that the Executive Committee ask the National to at least make a statement deploring the actions.

And it has to be Al in '04 cause Hilary promised she serve her full term in NY. Can't have a future president telling lies. Besides, we might need her vote in Congress.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 11:36 PM

Well, you've got a point there about Hillary, Skeptic. Thanks.

I really would like to research that, though, NOT because I think it was a joke. I think it is deplorable and someone high up needs to say so, I agree. I would just like to know the stats on the others to compare to what the rancorous are saying about Clinton.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 12:37 AM

How is this Clinton's fault ..... except in the abstract sense as he was the boss? We had a guy at work a while back who got in a fight with another employee (racially motivated, sad to say). Where does the responsibility lie? Applying the logic of the right (as proclaimed on talk radio, anyway), the person who hired the guy's to blame. Unless Clinton ordered it .... or listed 'willingness to vandalize the White House' as a required job skill, his responsibility is indirect, at best.

I'll try a couple of meta-search engines and deja-news to see if I can find anything about what's happened after other transitions. Hope others will do the same, as it would be interesting. I know the problem of people taking souviniers off Air Force One has been around a long time. A friend of my fathers was on the crew at one time (early 70's) and said it was a problem back then.

RE: Hillary - can't she run without having to give up her Senate Seat until/unless she wins? I know Texas and Vermont have that sort of law. Maybe NY does too. Regards, John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 07:59 AM

A. He probably wants to have Ashcroft in place before proceeding with any prosecutions since he doesn't have a Justice Dept. yet.

B. He likely doesn't want to fool around with the "sophmoric" stuff and concentrate on rape, sedition or treasonous activity.

C. He wants to take the media's focus off the Clintons who just won't go away. Maybe he will pay for the repairs himself. The photos of the disgraceful damage for use in the next election as campaign ad material is easily worth the price.

D. Never mind the vandalism, the real outrage is the quid pro quo "pardons". Most are not political pardons but rather friend, family and other serious criminal buddies.

E. The fact that the democRATS all defended this guy makes you all dirty participants. The same goes for the pubbies that voted to acquit.

What name calling?

mav

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 08:56 AM

Oh I do hope they do prosecute! Fun fun fun!

"And it has to be Al in '04 cause Hilary promised she serve her full term in NY." Can't see why - isn't Lieberman still a Senator?

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 10:46 AM

McGrath, It was because she promised to serve out her full term. I doubt it would go to trial. Plea bargain probably, in return for paying for the repairs and community service.

MAV A. The AG's office has more than enough competent, permanent staff to deal with relatively minor (legally speaking) acts of vandalism. With or without an AG, life goes on. And the decision on whether to prosecute (versus the actual trail where he'd want to have 'his' people in place), is his to make. The buck really does stop with him.

B. I thought the Alien and Sedition acts had been repealed back in the late 1700s early 1800s? I didn't think sedition was currently on the books (per se) as a crime. Maybe someone can address that. Treason is a federal crime. Is rape, itself?

As reported, the vandalism didn't even rise to the level of sophomoric. Made worse because they weren't kids but supposed professionals. Certainly any President (through the AG's office) has the right to determine whether a crime is prosecutable (whether perpetrator's can be identified, evidence collected and the like). I would personally (not as representative of "blue area types) prefer to know that he decided not to pursue this for those reason, versus political ones.

C. Then your take is that the decision is a purely political one? Then no matter how minor, the message sent by the vandals and (lets call it what it looks like), the apologists, is clear. The law applies to some of us, for the rest it is just another PR tool. (Okay, extreme generalization but the element is there)

D. And child abuse, rape and murder are worse still. One doesn't excuse, justify or in any way mitigate the other. Clinton went overboard on some of the pardons So did Ford. So did most other presidents. So do governor's. And then there's parole boards. The issue I'm after is the vandalism.

E. This goes back to "responsibility". While I understand (though don't agree) with your statement, I can also argue that it is a perfect example of the idea that it isn't the individual that's to blame, its society. So how can we think about punishing the vandals when it isn't their fault. We just need a social program to help them. MAV, tell me you're not a closet liberal??!!

Regards, John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 11:57 AM

Not a lot on vandalism in the White House on the net. Wouldn't expect any in the Reagan/Bush transition. Maybe more but a lot of it's not popping up on search engines and most on-line records don't go back that far.

From the Boston Globe - 1/26 in an article about the vandalism.

". When the victorious President Clinton and his troops seized the White House in 1993, they found the telephones a wreck, computers missing hard drives, and a departing staff that gave them the cold shoulder during the transition"

Clinton didn't prosecute either.

On Pardons, least we forget:

Reported in the Charlotte Observer, April 1993

"A recent article in the Charlotte Observer speculates on why President George Bush, two days before leaving office, pardoned a small-time Pakistani heroin smuggler serving a long sentence in a North Carolina federal prison (John Monk and Gary Wright, "Why Did Bush Free Smuggler? Mystery Lingers in Charlotte Case," The Charlotte Observer, 3/27/93, 1A).

Bush freed 32-year-old Aslam Adam of Karachi on January 18. Adam would not have been eligible for parole for another two years, having served eight years of a 55-year sentence. Neither Bush nor the U.S. Justice Department would comment on the reasons for the unusual pardon. In his four years in office, Bush pardoned only two other federal inmates."

December 24, 1992

The Iran Contra Scandal cast an omnipresent pall over the Reagan and Bush presidencies, and on this date in 1992, outgoing leader George Bush decided to do something about it: He pardoned the last six major co-defendants still facing criminal charges

Regards, John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 12:04 PM

THE ALIEN AND SEDITION ACTS

In response to the threat of war with France, the Federalist-controlled U.S. Congress pased four laws known as the Alien and Sedition Acts in 1798.

The laws lengthened the residency for naturalization to fourteen years and imposed a minimum five year advance notification for citizenship. The Acts also empowered the President to expel or deport aliens deemed a threat to public peace, and expel or imprison aliens whose country was at war with the United States.

There were fines and/or imprisonment for writing false or malicious criticisms of the Government of the United States, the President, or Congress. Many journalists were fined or imprisoned during this period.

The Acts were abolished during the presidency of Thomas Jefferson, who granted full pardons to most of those incarcerated.

usatrivia.com - ask professor mark - October, 2000

From what I've read elsewhere, rape is a federal crime if it is forcible and/or drugs were used as in the "date-rape" types cases.

kat

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 02:57 PM

Yes, Sceptic - but by the time there's anotheer Presidential Election, wouldn't it be time for Clintona to stand for re-election to the Senate anyway? So she'd already have served her full term. And she could stand for the Senate at the same time like I understood Lieberman did. Or have I got my wires crossed and Senators have a six-year term?

Incidentally - has anyone noticed that all the thread on the Cat at the moment are about music or music/song related in some way? Apart from this one, and a handful of others. So maybe we should have some musical thread drift hee. I put "bush" into the DT search box, and it came up with no fewer than 121 songs. On the other hand, "gore" only came up with 74 songs.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 03:21 PM

McGrath,

Senators serve for 6 years, Presidents for 4. Hillary completes her term in '06. I'm not sure of the laws in NY. Each state varies. If they're like Vermont, she can run for office while retaining her seat, but if she wins, she'd have to resign from the Senate.

"Clinton" turns up stuff too. Mostly Rev war era. And the ever popular "adultery". Maybe "dumb" would be a good one.

Kat,

Thanks for doing my homework on the Alien and Sedition Acts.

Most of what I could find on federal law (on a quick search) was about related suits that can be brought (violation of civil rights and such) Intuitively I think you're right but all the stuff I could find dealt with related issues: i.e violation of civil rights, possessions of date rape drugs, versus the actual crime. Unless the Feds differ to sates when rape happens on Federal Property, these should be something. Maybe Larry will read the thread and help out.

Regards, John Regards, John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 03:30 PM

Thanks Skeptic, I'm clear now. Though I doubt if that'll stop her. I imagine she'd be as good as her husband about phrasing things so that there's room for a little creative ambiguity.

"Monica" only throws up one song on the DT. Well worth reading it though...

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: SeanM
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 03:35 PM

Actually, skeptic, on google, "dumb M*F*" gets you GWB's merchandise page.

Not a liberal conspiracy, not a prankster in the ranks... According to an article (which I've lost the link to, dang it), a few online 'zines used the phrase to describe our Beloved Selected, google correlated the descriptives, and added it to the search criteria.

Still amuses me, though.

M

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 04:23 PM

That's pretty funny, Sean!

Skeptic/John, apparently the Violence Against Women Act did consider rape a federal crime, BUT, if you a click here you will find a good, imo, comment on how, in May 00, the Supreme Court struck down the right of a woman to sue for violation of her civil rights in the matter of being raped. I still haven't found the specifics, though, to see what kind of criminal charges might apply.

kat

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 04:52 PM

"Youi do realize don't you that, while you're rolling around on the floor taking bites out of each other, the politicians from both sides are scratching each others backs, and drinking together and swapping dirty stories and generally having a high-old time at both your expenses"

Not in our Legislature they aren't, well at least not "together".

They HATE each other.

Our illustrious House Majority leader (D) stated "I don't give a damn what the Constitution says", no surprise, we are the highest taxed, most liberal state in the US.

signed,

The people from one of the red areas of a blue state

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 05:15 PM

Yeah Sean,

That's a riot.

Perhaps W's idiocy explains why Garp D**khead and other "me too" democRATS are singing along (a little musical reference there) with him.

(W to Richard Gebhardt before taking office) "You better not ever lie to me" (boy).

Maybe that's why some of the betrayed black ministers of Chicago are "going to give Mr. Bush a chance".

I think we've seen enough of the Paul Begala, Harold Ickes, Julian Epstein, James Carville, Jerry Rivers and other elitist, PC, super IQ, ethical freedom types.

Thank God the Clinton News Network is falling apart, if only Bubba and the Hildebeast would go away.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 06:20 PM

MAV,

On elitism, You might want to read "Who Rules America? : Power and Politics in the Year 2000 -- G. William Domhoff"

Being PC is funny, when carried to an extreme. But then, so is being religiously correct. The danger is to mandate either. And the problem is to come up with acceptable definitions.

Super IQ? - do I detect a budding Luddite?. IQ, as used and measured in our society today tests (mostly) the ability to pass standardized IQ tests. I don't think having or not having a high IQ has a lot to do with much of anything except that as a culture we seem to have a 'mad scientist going to destroy the world" fixation. History has demonstrated that having or not having a high IQ has little to do with being able to royally screw things up.

Ethical Freedom - Do you mean situational ethics as opposed to the freedom to follow various ethical systems?

The probability of bi-partisanship in this Congress is remote. The battle will be over legislation, not cabinet appointments. The best is yet to be. BTW, Did he really say that? Do you have a source? Maybe he and GWB had the same PolySci Professor in College as both seem to have creative views about our system of government.

And while you may live in the "the highest taxed, most liberal state in the US", I seem to remember taxes in the US as a percent of GNP are the lowest in the industrialized world. Small consolation, true. But consider my State.

My State is moderate leaning to conservatism and has one of the lowest per capita taxes in the nation (Florida). They (the Conservative Governor and Legislature) do fun and creative things, almost destroy the Everglades and allow series overbuilding and uncontrolled development. We consistently underfund education (about a billion annually) and use as justification (despite clear proof to the contrary stretching back over 10 years) that our school population isn't really growing. We had vouchers. They were found unconstitutional. We don't have enough text books even in our best schools and the answer is to underfund and institute programs to take away even more money. Granted, our funding is better than Texas but not by much. Oh, and the State Board of Reagents that runs the State University System is about to be abolished and repalced with separate boards for each University. The first such in the Nation and one guaranteed to increase political patronage and decrease quality of education.

I add this because we aren't a liberal state (in the sense of State government), don't have high taxes and our leaders can by no means be considered PC, High IQ or ethically free. (elitism's another matter).

The argument that in the final analysis Congress is just one big mutual admiration society is probably less true now than it was 15 or 20 years ago. Both sides make deals to get what they want. Some call it politics as usually. A sort of flexible value/ethics thing practiced by both sides. Practicality is one way to describe their behavior. So is situational ethics or what you seem to be calling "ethical freedom". Another is the ever popular cynicism "the end justifies the means." Its not an ideological thing so much as how we play at politics. It may even be a necessary thing. Its not linked to party, though. (IMO)

I won't argue that Democrats aren't guilty , nor maintain the Republicans are. Whether they are one or the other has not a lot to do with it. Power has everything to do with it and Power truly corrupts, whether it grows out of politics or money or fame.

Kat,

I came across the this re: rape and civil rights: http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/01/11/scotus.02/

Thanks for the other link.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 07:19 PM

Not in our Legislature they aren't, well at least not "together".

Well that's what they have to show you when they're performing. You pay them for it. It'd spoil the game if they let you ordinary people in on it.

They HATE each other.

That could be just another indication of how close together politically they are. That's when the real hate come out. There's an old story about a new MP looking round the chamber and he says "At last I can come in and see my enemies all lined up against me"; and the old MP who's showing him round says "They aren't your enemies, they're your opponents. Your enemies are sitting behind you, on your own side."

Maybe it's all different over there (and I know the way you lay out your chambers is different). But I beg leave to doubt if it's all as straighforward as they want you to think. There's a lot of acting in politics, and they need one another. Doesn't mean they probably don't sincerely hate each other. A retty hateful bunch. But I suspect they are a lot more non-partisan in allocating that hate than they'd like you to think.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Troll
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 09:37 PM

Skeptic. I've got $5.00 that says that Hillary WILL run for the presidency in 2004 regardless of what she said about finishing her 6 year term as Senator from N.Y.
She despises Gore (from what I've read) and I don't think she'll be able to resist.
I enjoyed your section on IQ and the fact that having or not having a high IQ was not a prerequisite for screwing up royally as you yourself have so ably demonstrated.

troll

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 09:58 PM

Thanks, Skeptic for that link, but if you will look at the dates, my link was more up to date and says that the Supreme Court ruled a woman cannot sue a rapist for violation of her civil rights, so still nothing as far as criminal charges on the federal level.

kat

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 10:38 PM

troll,

Deal, then. All we gotta do is find someone we both trust to hold the money.

You may be right by Hillary. I still think she'll wait until '08 to put some distance between her and the less noble events of the her husband's presidency. Plus by fulfilling her vow, she gives the loyal opposition one less issue. If she doesn't run in '04, (and a democrat wins), she won't risk splitting the party in '08 but would accept the VP slot. I know she doesn't like Gore. I don't like him all that much and I'm a liberal, but if they run against each other it will fragment support. Unless GWB really does turn out to an actively ultra-right ideologue. In that case I think moderates and liberals would support almost anyone.

Okay, the truth is, she won't run until '08. The Trilateral Commission decided it last week. We've even reserved the space for the inauguration and the invite list is in the works. Entertainment will be provided by the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, the invocation will be omitted as potentially offense to some religious and anti-religious groups and no food will be served to demonstrate the plight of the homeless. Same sex couples will, of course, be given preference. The overall theme will be "Its Payback Time". Go ahead, tell everyone. They'll just think you're one of those right-wing conspiracy nuts. (In your case there'd be ample evidence of at least part of that charge). Damn but control of the media is great.

On the other hand, if Gore fades into obscurity in academia, she might well do it. Power has always been a bigger turn-on than integrity.

I won't explore which end of the spectrum you might place me on. I think your point was the screwing up part. About that I can't really argue as my acquaintance with you is a perfect example of one of my bigger ones.

About the only groups who seem to be able to reliably demonstrate that whatever their test measures equates to much of anything is the people who publish the tests. But then the same can be said for using standardized test to 'grade' schools and 'prove' students have learned something. There are reliable test that measure the various identified components of intelligence but they don't lend themselves to mass testing and sound bites.

This is much in the same vein as Secretary designates Norton's contention that the EPD is unnecessary and that the businesses doing the polluting are perfectly competent to police themselves. And are willing to do studies to prove it, too.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 10:56 PM

Kat, I did look at your link. After I posted mine. Sigh! I plead the flu. No I don't. It was the Bush people, out to get me....oops, sorry, I'm the egomaniac, trolls the paranoid. Apologies anyway. I still can't find anything. Maybe Monday at work.

McGrath,

The ways of our Congress are worthy of Byzantium at its apex. Probably deliberately so. The last thing most politicians seem to want (and not just at the Federal level) is for the voters to know what's going on. In my County, appointees to the various Regulatory and Advisory Boards are usually published about 4 days before the meeting. Not a lot of time to figure out if the person's someone you want on a Board. If you understand the system, you can find out the names a lot earlier. Is the system documented so you can figure out where to look by reading the rules of procedure? Not likely.

Then there's the Federal Register. That's where all the regulations are published, often based on a law that says "we want to do thus-and-so" and authorize a Department to make up rules to make it so.

All the liberal/conservative smoke screen aside, it does explain why a lot of people don't get involved or bother to vote. The new County Manager where I live, for example, would like to see community associations given at least partial control over the discretionary tax dollars budgeted for their community. It has happened in a few places, but then so has the election of socialist mayors. It rarely goes anywhere.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 11:12 PM

Skeptic,

Thanks for the reading references.

"Being PC is funny, when carried to an extreme. But then, so is being religiously correct. The danger is to mandate either. And the problem is to come up with acceptable definitions"

True and I advocate neither, but moral codes can only come from religion or natural law.

"Super IQ?"

I was referring to the 'tudes of the aforementioned smart@$$ liberals. Common sense doesn't seem to travel with that kind of ego.

"Ethical freedom"

My PC description of CORRUPT!

I am of the belief that it is a true quote. Obviously not reported by Comrade Dan.

"I seem to remember taxes in the US as a percent of GNP are the lowest in the industrialized world"

Federal income taxes perhaps, but when you factor in all federal payroll, state and local, plus the hidden taxes paid by consumers (corporate taxes included in the retail price of.....everything) tolls and fuel tax for transportation of goods, it gets pretty offensive (50+%)

"FL"

How long has FL been a republican state vs the developments you described? Doesn't it take a few years to pull off all this damage?

"power corrupts"

You are correct sir.

All the DC republicans from here are now RINOs.

mav

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 11:22 PM

McGrath,

The emotion in this case is real, but it's complicated.

We have divisions on both sides. Our party is both pro-life and murder/bort and there are pro-life democrats (French-Catholic).

The dems are all pretty cohesive however, and most of the GOPers are pro-business but split on social issues.

I'm not sure they are smart enough to pull off political theatrics in any credible manner.

mav

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 11:58 PM

I knew it, Skeptic. Troll made ya do it, huh?! {*_*}

kat

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Banjer
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 02:56 AM

All this brings to mind a new song title that a friend proposed just the other day:

"Something Stinks In Florida And It's Hidden In The Bushes"

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 09:00 AM

MAV, Florida is shifting to an odd mix, politically. State Government has been republican for three years. And yes, before that, the Democrats underfunded education. Jeb Bush, however, ran (in part) on a platform of fixing the problems. Other than vouchers (which got tossed out by the courts) his funding requests and the dollars appropriated are about $1 billion a year short of projected needs. The latest rationalization is that the number of new students has been over-estimated. Given that the methodology didn't change on how to estimate and that historically, using that method the new student population was usually underestimated, the statement seems curious. It does promise to get interesting as we have an amendment to the state constitution that makes education a primary responsibility of the state and sooner or latter it will end up in court.

In their defense, thanks to the tireless work of a group of environmental activist and with support of Jeb Bush and the Federal government, the Everglades problem is being addressed. The State share alone is $4 billion of the $8 billion total cost, over the next 30 years. Sadly, those who bare a lot of the responsibility (sugar growers and massive urban/suburban sprawl in South Florida), don't bear the majority of tax burden. The Everglades problem is the type of the ice-burg. Looking at water levels and salt water intrusion into the aquifer (especially in South Florida) potable water is going to become a major issue fairly soon.

The tax thing I heard at a seminar about education funding. I remember the contention being as stated; that for all taxes (direct/indirect, personal and corporate), considered as a percentage of GNP, the US was lowest. It didn't get into the issue of who bears the burden.

Thanks for the clarification on the ethics thing. Your definition of ethical freedom, pragmatically, would seem to be what I call situational ethics. Or the ethics of expediency.

An interesting perspective on the Democrats being cohesive and the Republicans not. Most of my friends (from both camps) feel it's the other way around.

kat,

troll made me do it? Please don't encourage him. Anyway, I think he was busy arguing with Joan d'Arc over her tactics in the siege of Orleans at the time. Or channeling Winnie the Pooh. Or both. Hard to keep track. (Sorry for the creep but I've found that if I don't notice him in my posts fairly regularly, he makes life hell for his friends and family. And sulks).

Regards, John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 10:08 AM

As I read it, abortion splits people in all parties , and many famiies. In fact a lot of individual people feel pretty divided in themselves about it.

The balance of opinion is maybe different in the diffeent parties, but that's contingent, it's not a real political difference. The same goes about most things, taxes, public services, foreign policy. The parties act like they're polarised in opposite extremes, but they overlap so much. They're really just different wings of the same party, sparring partners, who keep each other in business and marginalise any real opposition in the process.

And I could as easily be talking about England here as the USA. Except that I think maybe over there more people take the shadow boxing as serious.

As I said, none of that is to say that they don't quite sincerely hate each other. I just don't believe that the real hate is preferentially directed at political opponents. (And this week's feeding frenzy in the British press around Mandelson bears it out - though I don't expect the US papers have got round to taking much notice of that, reasonably enough.)

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 10:35 AM

Hey John,

On education, it's my belief that this term also has (at least) two definitions.

1. The verb, an action where a student acquires ever increasing knowledge and skills by diciplined immersion in useful information.

2. The noun, a burdensome government bureaucracy, monopolistic in nature and totally controlled by labor unions. This huge system consumes vast sums of taxpayer money and has very little actual interest in the success of students but rather in protecting union "jobs" and promoting mediocre performance by protecting the incompetent.

When we talk about funding education, we need to determine which type we are talking about.

In my home town here in the woods, we have 435 elementary students.

We have 10 teachers making over $50,000 per year.

Considering we have only a general store as our "business district" and no other significant sources of employment, and that the median income in this state is around $24,000, something is very out of balance.

Also consider that a school year does not last 12 months.

In this state, most of that stuff is top secret and I can see why.

If you can accept that home schoolers can cover K-12 education costs for about $250 and that we spend around $4500 per year per student for "education", we're talking babysitting.

I'm not saying many people could muster homeschooling, but the current spelling bee champion and geography bee (I think) champion were home schooled.

American public school students score among the worst in the world. Why is that even remotely acceptable?

My point is that the one-size-fits-all education approach by the government schools doesn't really challenge the individual student

There should be a format somewhere between private schools and home schooling which would allow parents the choice, responsibility and duty of educating their children in the exact way they see fit.

I do believe students should be funded by the state since to do otherwise based on property taxes has created "rich and poor" school districts.

Given that you can't fire incompetent teachers (labor union) guess where they are sent, the poor districts.

Any doubt why the poor stay poor? They're getting screwed by the "education" monopoly.

If the education industry were allowed to proliferate, specialists (just like the medical community) of all types could excel in any imaginable area (gifted, slow learners, faith based, military, behavioral problems etc.)

All kids could be directed to the successful school of the parents' choice and the bad teachers could then work at McDonlads.

Whatever the answer, "education" reform needs to happen loosening the grip of organized labor/crime on the taxpayer.

Having seen your FLSC (a total democrat partisan entity) in action, I can see why they ruled the way they did on the Constitutionality of vouchers.

Regards,

mav

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 11:00 AM

Aye McGrath,

"As I read it, abortion splits people in all parties , and many famiies"

It does, but on this side of the pond the GOP is generally pro-life and the dems are usually the murder/borts.

"The same goes about most things, taxes, public services, foreign policy. The parties act like they're polarised in opposite extremes"

Well, it may look that way there, but when one looks at the nature of bills introduced here and the direction of the votes by party, clear and distinct differences between them become obvious.

I will concede however that the RINOs are indeed our enemy. I would rather share conversation with a conservative democrat than a liberal in my own party, maybe I'd make a new friend (or a convert) it's happened before.

The voting records of the various legislators paints the democrats generally as anti-business, and the Republicans as typically pro-business.

With Republicans in the minority it's not hard to understand why we have a massive exodus of business from this state.

Taxation WITH representation is no improvement.

Respectfully,

mav

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,Stiklea
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 11:46 AM

Oh, Christ, the standard, canned, teacher-bashing bullshit/lies/fabrication & half-truths that you assholes love so well.

 In my home town here in the woods, we have 435 elementary students.

 We have 10 teachers making over $50,000 per year.

What does the superintendant/principal (administration) make? These teachers are also required to have masters degrees which cost a dollar or two out of their own pockets & years in college. Hey, if its such a great fucking racket, go out & get an education yourself, get certified and get on the Teacher Gravy Train!

 Considering we have only a general store as our "business district" and no other significant sources of
 employment, and that the median income in this state is around $24,000, something is very out of
 balance.

Because teachers make more than gas jockeys and less than plumbers or electricians or snow-plow operators and are the lowest-paid profession of any with comparable education/training/licensing requirements?? I don't think so. Maybe your local elected officials should stop whining and get off their asses to promote some economic development.

 Also consider that a school year does not last 12 months.

Also consider that the school workday for teachers is about 16 hours, that they are ineligible for overtime. Also consider that a lot of them pay for supplies/books/materials out of their own pockets due to inadequate budgets. Also consider that a lot of them have their OWN children to raise.

 In this state, most of that stuff is top secret and I can see why.

Bullshit. Its all public record & you vote on the school budget and elect the school board. If you're just too ignorant to find out this information, that's nobody's fault but yours.

 If you can accept that home schoolers can cover K-12 education costs for about $250

If you can accept that then you're either a moron, or you haven't bothered to check.

 American public school students score among the worst in the world. Why is that even remotely
 acceptable?

Its acceptable, apparently, because assholes like you whine about the cost, and about "lazy overpaid teachers".. The US spends the least on education of any developed country in the world. You get what you pay for.

 There should be a format somewhere between private schools and home schooling which would allow
 parents the choice, responsibility and duty of educating their children in the exact way they see fit.

Parents have those choices and responsibilities now, have always had them, and it is precisely because parents cannot be bothered to be involved in the education of their spawn- and foist it off on the schools as surrogate parents, which role they were never intended to & which they cannot possibly fulfill, that the education in the US is so fucked up- Its the wholesale abdication of parental responsibility both personal and fiscal, not, quote Government Bureaucracy and the Unions, unquote. And its not just -or even primarily- the poor doing this- its the supposed 'educated classes' as well.

 Given that you can't fire incompetent teachers (labor union) guess where they are sent, the poor
 districts.Utter bullshit. Tenure does NOT mean you cannot be fired for incompetence. Even with tenure, the Board always has ways to remove a teacher if they want to- "eliminate the position", "consolidate classes" and trumped-up charges of all sorts.

And teachers aren't "sent" anywhere- they're hired by school boards and boards of education which elected by local morons such as yourself, and for which positions (board members) there are NO QUALIFICATIONS REQUIRED WHATSOEVER. In some states you don't even have to be literate. THESE ignorant bastards RUN the schools, not the teaching staff.

 Any doubt why the poor stay poor? .

No more doubt than why ignorant bigots stay ignorant and bigoted. I hope you recognize yourself.

Your vomit is really getting boring-

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 12:27 PM

To whom it may concern;

For those of you who thought me sooooo ignorant for my common classification of liberal, socialists and communists, read this.

This is a listing of the socialists (progressives)in our Congress

http://www.netprogress.org/legis/index.htm

You will find some of your favorite buddies on here (Maxine W. and David B. et al)

Norman Thomas, for many years the U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate, stated:

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without knowing how it happened."

If they were to keep the guns they want to grab, they could become communists.

mav

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 01:31 PM

Well, well, well.

I'm not anti-teacher. I'm anti-establishment!

Perhaps you've heard of that.

To quote stickley;

"..Christ....bullshit...you assholes...great fucking racket....so fucked up....THESE ignorant bastards.... local morons such as yourself...Bullshit...etc."

Did you learn all those big vulgar words in teacher's college or from the DNC?

Stickley's post also contains exactly the type of condecending elitism I was referring to in an earlier post.

Here, drink some vomit.

A master's degree to be a union thug babysitter, seems such a waste. A large percentage of MA. "teachers" couldn't even pass a simple competency test, the misspellings and gramatical errors were unbelievable. I believe similar situations occured in NYC and other blue areas on the map.

A degree in "Ed" is just so much crap! Seems like a math major ought to be able to teach math.

Public school teaching positions should just be a "pass through" public service position on the way to a career, NOT A CAREER!

The REAL teachers can teach in or start private schools.

More vomit?

Those loser teachers can go pound sand.

If you (stickley) are a teacher I would fight to defend the kids from exposure to the likes of your disrespectful lowlife behavior and if you're not, thank God!

"And teachers aren't "sent" anywhere- they're hired by school boards and boards of education which elected by local morons such as yourself"

In this case, the crap sinks to the bottom and the good teachers get into the good school districts. You must teach in DC.

LOL!

What do you teach, Liberal Ebonic Journalism Dirt Speak 101?

" 'Any doubt why the poor stay poor?' "

I'll stand by that comment and I rest my case.

Let the vouching begin!

mav

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 01:34 PM

Pardon me,

It's STIKLEA, not Stickley (must be a "lady")

mav

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Troll
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 03:37 PM

MAV, WHY should teaching not be a career? It takes time to become an effective teacher and there is continual upgrading by way of recertification. Going back for a masters degree is really the only way that a teacher can get a real raise in pay.
Your assertion that the unions run things has got to be a joke. Most teachers unions that I have come into contact with over the last 30 years have been pale imitations of a real labor union. They do little to obtain better conditions for their members (which is what a union is supposed to do) and almost nothing if a member has a problem with the administration. What they sem to do best is posture around Washington and claim to control members votes.
As far as teaching in private schools, only a damn fool would take a 50% cut in what is already a lousy paycheck to teach in a place where the benefits ane nil, and there's no job security of any kind including that the school might not exist next year.
I have a friend who wanted to start an all girls school -7 through 12- here in Gainesville. She has the necessary credentials, experience, and business accumen to do this. She found a site, the building was large enough, adequate room for some sports etc.
Then she found out what she would have to do to bring the place up to code. Completely new bathrooms with handicap access, an elevator for access to the second floor; these were not safety regulations, but handicap access regulations. Never mind that it was to be a private school, since it was to be a school, all these things had to be done. It would have cost her almost $500,00.
She accepted a professorship at N.C.State in Boone.
Stackly (sic) you will get your point across a lot better if you ease up on the flameing.
Skeptic, we are NOT paranoid! We used to be schizophrenic but they adjusted our medication and we're much better now.

troll&troll

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 03:40 PM

MAV,

On education, it's my belief that this term also has (at least) two definitions.

Maybe on #1, Maybe on #2. 1. Sounds good on the surface. Florida has instituted a program of testing/grading in schools similar to the one GWB proposes in his package. School funding and (eventually) teacher's salaries are dependent on student's grades on standardized tests. Any guess as to what the students learn to do? And the "proof" that the test's actually demonstrate anything are inconclusive at best.

2. The system is unwieldily and expense. Too many bureaucrats and monitoring programs (mandated by the Federal Government for the most part). And what about school sports programs? A while back, a nearby School district opened a new school. No money for books for the library or computers, but the sports program was fully funded. Another district tried to buy new textbooks to replace outdated ones.. Because of limited funds, the proposed solution was to cut the sports budget by 10%. At the next meeting, over 200 people showed up to protest the decision (usually less than 10 showed up). Result was no new text books and a fully funded sports program. If the goal is to educate and parents need to be involved, the education needs to start with the parents.

Plenty of other examples. Driver's Ed, for example. Or using limited funds to buy computers that are outdated inside of two years. Programs that are created because the school system can get a federal grant to teach anger-control on the schools and history textbooks that stop with the election of Nixon.

With mandated programs for learning deficiencies (my son benefitted from same), legislatively imposed requirements that are cumbersome, time consuming and require certain levels and types of staffing. Any wonder where the money goes. Florida is a right to work state. We have a union but membership isn't required. The teachers have a interest in teaching the students (at least to pass tests) the "We have 10 teachers making over $50,000 per year" In general, we don't. As a college town, salaries are a little lower because of the University. Starting salary with a Masters is 27K. "Considering we have only a general store as our "business district" and no other significant sources of employment, and that the median income in this state is around $24,000, something is very out of balance"

Our problem is that because of the University and a publically owned utility, over half the potential taxable property is tax-exempt.

"If you can accept that home schoolers can cover K-12 education costs for about $250 and that we spend around $4500 per year per student for "education", we're talking babysitting" I have friends who home school (three families). Their costs are about $1000 a year. If you count the value of their time, costs rise. Not as high, but they don't have to do special programs for learning problems and the like. Home schooling can work well. It tends to neglect social development. "American public school students score among the worst in the world. Why is that even remotely acceptable? "

It isn't. And I'm not claiming that we have good students but why do we care what somebody scores on the SAT and see that as a valid measure of anything. SAT's seem ideally designed to protect non-teacher education types from having to make a value judgement about a child. Its clean, simple, objective, you can't get sued over it and who cares if 20% of the college freshman entering one state university couldn't identify the century of the American Civil War. All of them had to score above 1200 to get in. (Source was one of the RR talk shows so validity is questionable) "There should be a format somewhere between private schools and home schooling which would allow parents the choice, responsibility and duty of educating their children in the exact way they see fit."

Getting parents to show up for parent/teacher conferences is a big problem. The solution is to get parents involved, but when the turnout of parents at a basketball game is three times that of the PTA, I question if you're not hoping for the impossible. Most private schools (non-boarding anyway, require that parents spend a certain number of hours working at the school as a condition of their child's enrollment. "I do believe students should be funded by the state since to do otherwise based on property taxes has created "rich and poor" school districts." In Duval County, the rich districts demanded that the School Board spend more money on their schools since they paid more taxes. As they couldn't change the per capita, the richer schools got things like a $3 million computer lab. The poor schools couldn't even get money for a copier. Stopping that kind of thing is difficult. Fixed funding formulas fail to address the problem.

"Given that you can't fire incompetent teachers (labor union) guess where they are sent, the poor districts. Any doubt why the poor stay poor? They're getting screwed by the "education" monopoly." Damn, we agree. Scarey.

"If the education industry were allowed to proliferate, specialists (just like the medical community) of all types could excel in any imaginable area (gifted, slow learners, faith based, military, behavioral problems etc.) All kids could be directed to the successful school of the parents' choice and the bad teachers could then work at McDonlads. "

Specialist cost money. And how do you know if they're any good.? I mean, a doctor generally has observable proof of success or failure. How do you evaluate teachers? A few pilot programs seem to show that, even under the current bureaucracy, what works is getting the trouble making kids into separate classes and requiring parental involvement. In middle school, peer mediation. "Whatever the answer, "education" reform needs to happen loosening the grip of organized labor/crime on the taxpayer"

You omitted politicians, special interest groups, Colleges of Education, text book publishers (check this out: http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/01/15/textbook.errors.ap/index.html) And parents who think football is a valid course of study. (Or just don't want to deal with their kids complaining). "Having seen your FLSC (a total democrat partisan entity) in action, I can see why they ruled the way they did on the Constitutionality of vouchers." It was a circuit judge in Leon County (state capital). Jeb is appealing. The problem was that funds could be used in religiously run schools, to promote religion. The US Supreme Court seems to disagree, if the funds are used only for non-religious purposes. An accounting nightmare if ever there was one. Partisans, yes. But they're our partisans. And they keep getting reelcted. Regards, John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 04:21 PM

troll,

Which one of you is doing the posting this time?

Sticklea,

You make valid points that (IMO) are spoiled by the flaming. Unless you think all of mav's stuff really is a put-on, why flame? Besides, it messes up my spell-checker when I'm proofing. "Oh, Christ, the standard, canned, teacher-bashing bullshit/lies/fabrication & half-truths that you assholes love so well."

Better than blaming ourselves, though. *BG* And he didn't even get into sex education and political indoctrination. Or the secret induction into a covens or .......another *BG*

"What does the superintendent/principal (administration) make? These teachers are also required to have masters degrees which cost a dollar or two out of their own pockets & years in college. Hey, if its such a great fucking racket, go out & get an education yourself, get certified and get on the Teacher Gravy Train!" Stripped of the ranting, exactly. Teachers are underpaid and administrators over-paid. Some states do help subsidize the cost of a master's degree. Few have any criteria to rate the effectiveness of teachers beyond standardized tests. Is a teacher that instills in her students a love of say, reading, worth more or less than one who teaches them how to pass test. Guess which one gets retained or rewarded.

"Because teachers make more than gas jockeys and less than plumbers or electricians or snow-plow operators and are the lowest-paid profession of any with comparable education/training/licensing requirements?? I don't think so. Maybe your local elected officials should stop whining and get off their asses to promote some economic development." And consider the importance of what they do (hopefully) Teaching children how to think, how, giving them tools to help them understand the world and themselves. (Sounds good, anyway)

"Also consider that the school workday for teachers is about 16 hours, that they are ineligible for overtime. Also consider that a lot of them pay for supplies/books/materials out of their own pockets due to inadequate budgets. Also consider that a lot of them have their OWN children to raise." And some of them teach summer school or take classes. Th e12 month thing wasn't their choice (though many like it). Mav, does your boss require you to sponsor a club after hours, on you r own time? Not ask, require?

"Bullshit. Its all public record & you vote on the school budget and elect the school board. If you're just too ignorant to find out this information, that's nobody's fault but yours"

It may not be true in all states. Oh, the general budget is available but in some states detail isn't. And some states still allow Boards to meet/discuss issues in private. "if you can accept that then you're either a moron, or you haven't bothered to check." Well, maybe not a moron but I agree.

"Its acceptable, apparently, because assholes like you whine about the cost, and about "lazy overpaid teachers".. The US spends the least on education of any developed country in the world. You get what you pay for. "

Its not just .... people .... like Mav. It seems to be a public perception that spans the political, social and economic spectrum. I've sat at a School Board meeting and listen to complaints about teachers (names weren't allowed), claiming they were either to liberal or too strict or too lenient or to intolerant Turns out it was the same teacher. .As a society, we place no value on education or learning as having any intrinsic value.

"Parents have those choices and responsibilities now, have always had them, and it is precisely because parents cannot be bothered to be involved in the education of their spawn- and foist it off on the schools as surrogate parents, which role they were never intended to & which they cannot possibly fulfill, that the education in the US is so fucked up- Its the wholesale abdication of parental responsibility both personal and fiscal, not, quote Government Bureaucracy and the Unions, unquote. And its not just -or even primarily- the poor doing this- its the supposed 'educated classes' as well."

I think you could have used a lot more invective ( without a BG). Parents don't want to get involved (And, in truth I think, administrators aren't that wild about it). Teachers and kids would love it. I used to take time off from work to go on school field trips or just work as an aide. Out of thirty kids it was always the same 6 or 7 who helped out. The ones who complained loudest, never had time. We has one mother who lead the fight to ban certain books from the library. But never even made it to the parent/teacher conference.

"Utter bullshit. Tenure does NOT mean you cannot be fired for incompetence. Even with tenure, the Board always has ways to remove a teacher if they want to- "eliminate the position", "consolidate classes" and trumped-up charges of all sorts." Well, not utter....close though.

"And teachers aren't "sent" anywhere- they're hired by school boards and boards of education which elected by local morons such as yourself, and for which positions (board members) there are NO QUALIFICATIONS REQUIRED WHATSOEVER. In some states you don't even have to be literate. THESE ignorant bustards RUN the schools, not the teaching staff."

"No more doubt than why ignorant bigots stay ignorant and bigoted. I hope you recognize yourself."

And this diatribe helps combat ignorance how? Same question to Mav for when he starts flaming.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,Sticklea
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 05:00 PM

Unless you think all of mav's stuff really is a put-on

Of course I dont. I think its vicious bullshit, posted by a bigoted moron who really believes it, more's the pity.

And I am amazed by those who tolerate it, and more so by the MAV-apologists who condone, excuse and encourage it- sorry, him. He's a gobshite- period.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 05:31 PM

My three sisters have over 89 years collective experience in teaching. They certainly didn't go into it expecting to make a huge salary of any kind. IMO, none of them has ever received as much as they deserve. When they got into teaching they were motivated by love of teaching and chidlren, with strong support from parents and communities they were in. It was still a revered vocation at whihc most did a very good job; my sisters are some of the best.

The climate has changed so much, it is so contentious, so unsupported, yet so much is expected of teachers in general, besides teaching their subject, it is no longer as attractive nor motivating as it used to be. Most parents have abdicated any responsibility for the chidlren and their education. Many children have no books, magazine, or even newspapers at home. Our culture does not revere learning the way it used to and teachers are ready made scapegoats for lack on the part of parents.

Teacher-bashing does not solve a thing, better you should look to the people who have the children and what they are filling their lives with or not. The government nor teachers can make up for what parents need to provide their children with in their early years for learning, socialisation, and a good productive life.

kat

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 06:38 PM

Stiklea,

IMO, all flaming someone does is convince them they're right. Mav may be convinced he has the keys to the kingdom. I have issues like that. So do you. I'm pretty sure mav thinks we're misguided morons, refusing to see the plain truth when he points it out to us.

I do tolerate mav. I don't excuse or condone his flaming either but he has the right to his opinions. If mav is as convinced as he comes across, all the flaming does is convince him that he has to be right. He becomes the victim of an unwarranted attack. I've always found that martyr's are a lot more trouble to deal with than the merely misguided.

Kat,

You're right. Most teachers teach because it's a passion with them. Why else put up with it? Sadly, it doesn't get the respect it deserves. Doing away with publci schools al la mav would clearly demonstate that $4500 a year per student is cheap.

I think its more than just the parents not having books and such. As a society we don't seem to value reading (or education) all that much. My father read up to the point he didn't have enough strength to hold a book. My brother and I are heavy readers and both my sisters have always had books and magazines around. My son (age 11) lives with his mother who rarely reads. Imagine my surprise when I found out he was the best reader in his class and loved the library. My brothers son has never liked reading for pleasure. One of my younger sister's son's lives to read, the other's like my nephew. But when kids do reports that have been cut and pasted off the internet and the parents get upset when the teacher complains, what can you do? Books take three things: effort, time and thinking. Most people won't take, don't have and don't want to.

My rant is finished. I need to go. I think troll escaped again, as I hear police sirens in that direction.

Regards,

John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Troll
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 07:03 PM

I told them where you were. AND I told them that you were being reasonable.
Again
I'm doing the posts. He's asleep.
BTW excellent response on MAV and Stackley.

troll

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 07:47 PM

troll,

I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to you.

Sigh. Damning praise.

Regards,

John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Troll
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 09:15 PM

Why would you damn Praise? Besides, she changed her name to WSI...WYSY...WIGY...~Susan.

troll

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 09:23 PM

troll,

Why do I bother with any of you. Oh I remember now. Its like something out of "Pirates of Penzance".

Regards John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 11:05 PM

Yes, but the difference is, if I thought you were misguided morons, I wouldn't say I thought you were morons.

mav

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 11:21 PM

Thanks, Skeptic. I didn't mean to imply that it was only the lack of reading material in homes. You are absolutely correct about love of reading, etc. I just didn't state it clearly enough.

I grew up in a family of readers. My mom was reading up to the day she passed on; dad is still going at almost 84. Two of my children are heavy readers; the other find little time for it, at the moment, as she has twin 3 yr. old boys, BUT she and her husband do spend plenty of time reading to them and I am proud to say "my boys" love their books.

Frankly as difficult as it is to teach, these days, it would have to be a "calling"...I don't see how anyone could do it, otherwise.

So, what are we up to, 2 Trolls or 3?! LOL

kat

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 01:23 AM

I'll be damned!

~S~

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 07:23 AM

But, under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without knowing how it happened.

You should be so lucky. Socialism is as American a tradition as apple pie, and it'll be good news fro teh world when you appreciate that, but it won't be achieved as easily as that. The internal threats to your freedom come from quite a different direction.

(Incidentally I note in today's paper that it now looks pretty certain that Al Gore did in fact beat George Bush in the Floridasweepstake. So, in spite of all the embarassment, obtructing the count proved a worthwhile investment for Baby Bush.)

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 07:24 AM

kat,

Three I think. You'd think one of them would get it right.

Mav,

Your restraint is admirable. :-)

Regards,

John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 08:17 AM

McGrath,

We've never let a little thing like facts interfere with winning. Especially in politics. I think there is a very strong "sports" element, in American politics that believes; "Its not how you play the game that counts, its winning". A lesson taught in most Little Leagues and Pop Warner leagues (youth sports organizations)

As all to many Americans think a three week old "Newsweek" is a history text. (That or Encarta Online) is it any wonder we keep repeating the mistakes of the past?

On socialism, I fear you're right. I don't see it as happening under the banner of liberalism, but because people want to feel secure. And finding it outside of self is far easier than dealing with inner demons.

troll,

To forestall one of your attempts at reparte (witty doesn't enter into it), I most certainly can count past two. I'm all the up to nine, thank you. Next week I get to start on double digit numbers. So there. (Please leave a note so all of you will get this message).

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Troll
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 12:05 PM

Double digits, eh? So now you'll be wanting me to UN-tie your shoes as well as TIE them. You should be able to remove the socks (if any) on your own. Counting on ones toes isn't THAT hard.
If you decide to wear loafers for the occasion remember, TGIF (toes go in first).

troll ***BTW we are all very proud of your attempts at farthering your education.***

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 04:21 PM

Ten teachers into 435 students equals 43 and a half students per class, not allowing for non-contact time if applicable.

Penny

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 04:24 PM

Oh, and somewhere this weekend (probably the Guardian) I saw a reference to someone having searched for references to White House trashing, and had come up with a reference to the staff of one Geo. Bush wrecking telephones and removing hard disks when one Wm. Clinton (who did not prosecute) arrived.

Penny

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 05:20 PM

Penny,

And Clinton's decision not to prosecute makes no more sense to me than GWB.

I suspect there are more teachers than 10, they just make less than the $50K.

I seem to remember that the "ideal" class size is about 15 students per teacher and the average close to 30. (Though it has gone down)

Regards

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: mousethief
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 05:23 PM

How DARE those teachers make a living wage? It's those damned Unions again, trying to raise wages for working people. F**k them. The only people who should EAT in this country are the owners of businesses, not their fawning underlings and petty button-pushers.

--A. Conservative

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 05:33 PM

A. Conservative.

Sir, you forgot the other vital group who must be allowed to eat. Maids, butlers, gardener's, nannies and he like. Standards must be maintained.

Of course, its not like they have to eat well and surely the privilege of associating with our sort offsets the need to pay them more than a token amount.

I assure you, we will investigate these reports of people being paid a living wage. Those responsible will be dealt with harshly. These kind of un-American activities cannot be tolerated. Next you'll tell me they get health benefits.

A. Conservative II.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 05:45 PM

Ah well, Bush IS president. Teachers (and the rest of the gaggle that constitute "schools") WILL perform - or lose funding. That sounds fair to me. Why subsidize failure? Liberals have always believed that throwing money at schools is the ONLY way to fix them. Of course, history proves that approach to result in failure.

A favorite saying by one of our local teachers is: "In the school system, the teacher is where the rubber meets the road!"

Nice, trite saying. But the engine, transmission, differential, and driveshaft must all be working or the rubber will be sitting still. Truly good teachers are hamstrung by the union, government, and top-heavy administrations (related to union problem.) Bad teachers are protected by the same bureaucracy.

President George W. Bush will shine some light in some dark corners of the education establishment.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: mousethief
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 05:52 PM

Ah, yes. Top-heavy administration is caused by unions.

I'm so sick of this "throwing money at it" idea. Well, let's see. Can we make schools better by spending LESS money on them? Where has THAT worked? (hint: NOWHERE). More MONEY might make class sizes smaller. Might get problem students into special classes (mandated, but not paid for, by the Feds) and allow the regular teachers to actually TEACH during the 6 hours they're with our kids, and not just babysit the troublemakers while the rest fall through the cracks. Might buy some up-to-date textbooks, so that if the kids do manage to learn something, it won't be wrong. Might fix crumbling schools, decrepid heating and/or cooling systems, and the like.

No, MONEY is not the answer. Surely TAKING MONEY AWAY will be the right thing to do to fix America's schools. We all know that PUNISHING people for things they can hardly help works far better to achieve results than REWARDING them for things they are actually doing right.

Hey, conservatives with the anally-fitted crania: go to the aquarium and find out how they train the dolphins. Specifically, what punishment do they use when they do something wrong?

(Hint: NONE. They don't punish, only reward.)

Small wonder dolphins score higher than Republicans on standardized tests.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 06:35 PM

Well Bush failed to get elected, and they rewarded him by giving him the job.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 06:46 PM

When I hear buzzwords like "accountability" and "vouchers" being thrown around I know immediately that I'm not dealing with someone who is interested in solving the problem of the schools as much as forwarding a separate agenda. In the case of George W. and his party, the agenda is two-fold: undermine organized labor and put money back in the pockets of those who can afford private schools.

Not that the "throw money" approach will work either. Education is a perfect example of a problem that does not have a simple political solution.

With all the talk about "our failing schools" you hear very little said about what success means in relation to schools. What are our schools supposed to do? Does anyone imagine that you can create a system that will teach a child anything without parental involvement, in an environment that subverts rather than reinforces the will to learn? And what about content? Or mission? What's the goal of public education? Is the ultimate goal to produce a unit who is properly respectful of authority, productive in the work place and supportive of community goals and standards?

I don't have an answer to the problems in the schools but I do know a couple of things. Teachers don't get paid nearly enough for what they do. Unions that look after the needs of their members are not the problem. Testing is not the solution. Expand the dialogue. Get to the root of the problem. And get the politicians the hell out of the schools.

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: mousethief
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 06:53 PM

As we all know, Max (or was it Joe?) has asked us to make new threads when popular ones reach 100 posts. This is overdue, but here we go:

CONTINUE THIS DISCUSSION HERE

See you in the new thread, chaps and chappesses!

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!!
From: GUEST,surfing
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 07:33 PM

Gee I broke a E string while laughing at this thread! Wonder if any Folkie is noticing the new America is becomming so Puritan, no laughing, dancing, fiddling, similing, eating, living, sex, praying except at the Church of the Reformed Church of Cocaine and Blood and Hang em all 2nd Congress. Is 'the' New American an AngloLadino with serious leanings towards ancient Mayan ceremonies like chopping off heads on Pyramids and other Red things - while high on 'White Stuff'. BTW Is that why they call 1600 Pen... The White House.. Perhaps El Dubyaino misunderstood the Job Description, should he sue the Texas Employmnent Agency for over taxing his attention span?

Now that the local Coke Cola franciseee is a contributor to the Lott hidden rewards program, ( B.J.s in Florida ??) will we be paying a higher price for the Nectar of hot summer? Will we be paying the extra 10 cents on Gasoline for all of 2001 to repay the Bush campaign or will it be paid off before the end of the year. BTW How long does it take to pay off 80 million dollars 10 cents at a time?

Now that Florida has returned to the Race culture of the past can we soon expect to see Segregated Public Utilities?

Since El Presidente is sooo long on Narcotics will we also be allowed to Snort in the Public Parks as well as in the Public Bathrooms?

During the era of the great Bubba the Dealers were hiding in the corners of Apartment Complexes up and Down the USA and they now are come out upon the streets to sell their product direct, does this mean there will be a big discount?

:0)

Snort, gulp, glug, ....

Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! (reply to blt)
From:
Date: 12 May 03 - 09:28 PM

Sounds like you're following a good leader...yourself. Would that more would intuit this truth. :)

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