Irishism

Subject: Irishism
From: Extra Stout
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 04:02 AM

Dear Friends, Please excuse my format, I still can't type. In "Guerrilla Days In Ireland" by Tom Barry, Barry describes an attempt on the life of a British judge. The IRA men were near but outside the hotel where the judge was staying. Barry's weapon, he says, was a "Peter the Painter". What the heck is that? It sounds sloppy, like a shotgun or maybe a sub-machine gun. Barry elsewhere mentions the Thompson,but there does'nt seem to be a link between the two. Answers, guesses and reflections are all welcome.

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: MartinRyan
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 04:13 AM

For the heck of it, I tried a Google search on this! "peter the painter" was a Russian anarchist involved in the "Siege of Sidney Street" in England in 1910. Looks like the name may well have developed from there.

Regards

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: Amergin
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 04:17 AM

I saw the same thing....

The following is an excerpt from ALL THE WAY DOWN THE SLIPPERY SLOPE: GUN PROHIBITION IN ENGLAND AND SOME LESSONS FOR CIVIL LIBERTIES IN AMERICA

In December 1910, three London policemen investigating a burglary at a Houndsditch jewelry shop were murdered by rifle fire. A furious search began for "Peter the Painter," the Russian anarchist believed responsible. The police uncovered one cache of arms in London: a pistol, 150 bullets, and some dangerous chemicals. The discovery led to front-page newspaper stories about anarchist arsenals, which were non-existent, all over the East End of London. The police caught up with London's anarchist network on January 3, 1911, at 100 Sidney Street. The police threw stones through the windows, and the anarchists inside responded with rifle fire. Seven-hundred and fifty policemen, supplemented by a Scots Guardsman unit, besieged Sidney Street. Home Secretary Winston Churchill arrived on the scene as the police were firing artillery and preparing to deploy mines. Banner headlines throughout the British Empire were already detailing the dramatic police confrontation with the anarchist nest. Churchill, accompanied by a police inspector and a Scots Guardsman with a hunting gun, strode up to the door of 100 Sidney Street; the inspector kicked the door down. Inside were the dead bodies of two anarchists. "Peter the Painter" was nowhere in sight. London's three-man anarchist network was destroyed.

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: Fiolar
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 04:46 AM

Peter the Painter was a slang term for a Luger. If you check the history books you'll find that many German guns had been smuggled into Ireland before and during the first World War.

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: Amergin
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 04:57 AM

Oh ok, Thank you, Fiolar....I wondered that myself...having read that same book...

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: MARINER
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 11:22 AM

Speaking of "Irishisms" a word in common use over here often brings a smile to the faces of American friends, I can't recall any reaction from the Brits. It's the word "disimproved", used to describe someone who has not improved or whose health has taken a turn for the worse.Does it sound strange to any of you folk?

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: Extra Stout
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 09:11 PM

Thank you all very much indeed. The P 08 is still an elegant and popular pistol. Its hardly surprising that it would have picked up a nickname or two along the way. And yes, "disimproved" sounds quite odd to me. I read somewhere that many English-language Irish idioms are literal translations of Gaelic phrases or application of Gaelic grammer and syntax to English, i.e. "I'm after a hard day at work" or addressing a group as "yous" instead of the English you(singular). Thanks again.

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 10:17 PM

Only the disingenuous, the educationally disadvantaged or the downright disreputable could fail to discombobulate this expression. Of course, it might simply be a case of misremembering the word.
:-))Annraoi

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: GUEST,Ganainm
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 05:49 AM

My dad who was born about the year 1900, used to speak of a weapon favoured by the IRA during the 'tan war' called a 'parabellum'. I think it was a machine pistol and had a detachable stock which allowed the user to aim it like a rifle or to fire it one-handed. From memory it looked like a German Luger. Dad often mentioned the 'Peter the Painter' as well. I'm not sure if the two names referred to the same gun or not.

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: Fiolar
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 07:00 AM

Yes, they do.

Subject: RE: Irishism
From:
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 07:51 AM

A chairde, re Irishisms, may I recommend ''English As We Speak It'',by P.W.Joyce where many of the variations of English spoken in Ireland are discussed. Expressions such as ''I'm after having a great time'' for ''I had a geat time'' are direct translations of Irish. My favoutites Irishisms are one like ''excuse me are you reading that paper your sitting on'' ? or'' I saw you going to work this morning, but by the time I caught up with you, you were gone.''What about ''it is to lose it I did (I lost It )or somone reading a paper '' Is it reading it you are'?. This type of speech is sometimes mocked as being stage Irish, but I wonder why it is then that the Irish excell in writing in the English language. Is it because language is more influenced by imagination than mere vocabulary? ---thats the question for ye now to be setting your minds on and to be thinking of that very self same question and to be finding for yerselves some kind of answer to it, by the way, and to be taking all the time in God's earthly world to be sortin it out.

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: InOBU
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 10:37 AM

I always thought it was the broomstick handled mauser, which was much more dependable and hearty than the lugar, which tended to jam, in fact the jamming tendency was responcible for the capture of Kevin Barry... so I am told.
Larry

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: AKS
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 02:56 AM

And if you want some scientific background to the Irishisms in English, have a look at "The Grammar of Irish English; Language in Hibernian Style" (Routledge, London and New York 1999) by professor Markku Filppula (University of Joensuu, Finland).

Slightly crept, yes, but couldn't resist: the professor plays tin whistle (and oboe) in our band:-)

Slán
AKS

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: English Jon
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 06:05 AM

Favourite sayings from Richard McGuire's Dad:

"ye big wee bollox" "de three o' you's a right pair if ever I saw one"

"ye'd make a man's piss come out in lumps" (not lingustically that interesting, but what a great expression!)

Cheers Jon

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 01:38 PM

"...I always thought it was the broomstick handled mauser, which was much more dependable and hearty than the lugar, which tended to jam, ....."

Larry,

Working here from (a defective) memory,

The "Parabellum" was the P'08 family (Lugers in their various forms) which featured a stock board which fitted in a harness behind the holster for the "artillery" model (8" barrel ?) (although all the early German models could use the butt). This used the German Army 9mm "Parabellum" round. The "Broom-handle" (or "bolo")Mauser (the Mauser model 1896) was originally made in 7.63 mm and featured a wooden holster which could be used as a butt and was carried in a belt harness. The Mauser was converted to take the 9 mm miltary ammunition, but, IIRC it was slightly too powerful for the mechanism which could lead to the jams.

Walrus

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: Mickey191
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 03:14 PM

My Dad, A Monaghan Man, Had the best stories to tell about "The Troubles"and one I remember was when he proudly shared a cigarette with Countess Markevitz(sp). In the conversation with her she referred to her gun as Peter the Painter. If I had only taped his reminiscences, I have a neat little book.

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: InOBU
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 03:51 PM

Ah Walrus, my old grey head tends to jam as well, if only, as Mickey says, we recorded things when we had the chance, eh? I had the great honor to shake the hand of one of the last veterins from the GPO when I was in my twenties. You always think you will hear the old storys again, and then, oh well...
Larry

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: Fergie
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 06:16 PM

The machine gun euphamistically referred to as a "Peter the Painter" by old time Irish republicans was the kind of machine gun which had a round drum shaped magazine mounted face on towards the end of the barrel. From memory it was a favourite weapon of the Mafia during the twenties & thirties I seem to recall that in the film Home Alone the young hero used an excert from an older film wherein an older guy guns down another guy and he makes some referance to Happy Honika or some such greeting. Well the gun he used was a Peter the Painter, can anybody identify that weapon?

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: death by whisky
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 06:29 PM

I'm goin upstairs to throw myself down

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: Fergie
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 06:35 PM

Shit !!!!!!!!!! Was it something I said?????????

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: death by whisky
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 06:59 PM

naw,sure I'm under the doctor

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: InOBU
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 07:04 PM

The gun you describe with the round magazine was a Thompson submachine gun. It was used by the IRA, and I heard stories that a few were still circulating in Republican circles. I had heard they were the first army to have a machine gun unit, I think in west cork, but I might be wrong.
Larry

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: Mickey191
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 10:40 PM

Memory has failed me for the title-but there is a rebel song which mentions the thompson submachine gun. Anyone know it?

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: Amergin
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 01:34 AM

The Merry Ploughboy mentions the Thompson gun in the chorus....

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 01:34 AM

I can't come up w/ one in the title but possibly "The Ballad of Billy Reed" Remembered through too many nights behnd a bar. "The radio said twas another shot dead and he died w/ a gun in his hand. Oh they didn't say why Billy Reed had to die but he died by that old Thompson gun" (sic) The (that) old Thompson gun in the last line begs to be the title.

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: GUEST,Ribbit
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:46 AM

"Sure and he'll regret it till the day he dies: if he lives that long." Victor Mcglaughlin in "The Quiet Man"

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: Cara
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 02:42 PM

I knew before I went to Ireland, from Irish friends here mostly, that they refer to cigarettes as fags. It's hard to get used to for a PC girl like me, and even when I travelled in Ireland in November it would still shock me a little to hear that word bandied about. But nothing stopped me in my tracks like the sign I saw by the hearth at a little pub in Kiltulla: Please do not throw fags in gas fire.

By all means, please don't!

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: Fiolar
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 02:50 PM

Actually the word "fag" meaning a cigarette dates from the late 19th century. A less than complimentary for a woman that smoked heavily was "Fag-Ash Lil."

Subject: RE: Irishism
From: Extra Stout
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 02:57 AM

Fergie, and all, thanks again for your enrichment of my fund of lore. Maybe some of this can help somebody. The Luger Artillery model ( I think) had a longish barrel and a detachable shoulder stock, it also had a 50 round magazine similar to the Thomson's. Said to have been popular with pilots in the first world war. 9mm Parabellum is the proper name of the usual Luger cartridge, from a Latin quote " if you would have peace, prepare for war". The Mauser 98 was the 9mm version of the 96, and had a big red 9 on the grip so you could tell them apart. The Mauser pistol was also the model for Han Solo's ray gun. Tom Barry, in the book referred to in my original question, says he test fired a Thompson in Dublin in 1920, but the war ended before the guns the IRA ordered were shipped. Last , but not least " The Story Of English" a companion book to the PBS series has some interesting things to say about Irish and other forms of English.See you later.