Clarinet question and bagpipe question

Subject: Clarinet question and bagpipe question
From: Marion
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 06:16 PM

Hello. Part 1:

I have a friend who plays classical clarinet, and she says that her instrument is in Bb. So when she sees a G on the page and plays it she's thinking "G" but the actual sound that comes out is an F. So in orchestral situations she works with sheet music that is written a tone higher than everybody else; when she plays music that isn't specifically for clarinet she has to sight-transpose it.

This seems silly to me. I mean, when she learned the clarinet she learned that fingering it X way was G, although it was really F - so she has to use different music or sight-transpose all the time. Why didn't she just learn that fingering it X way was F in the first place?

Now I'm not so much asking why she personally didn't learn the notes in a standard way - I realize that it's simpler for her as an individual to go with the conventions of her instrument and musical circles - but I'm wondering why the clarinet world is a tone off standard pitch.

And in answer to the obvious question, I did ask her this myself: she said that she didn't know and hadn't thought about it before. And they say a classical training doesn't limit the mind.

Disclaimer: did I say that?

Part 2:

Can someone explain to me what notes bagpipers can play? My ignorance of pipes is too general to ask a good question, but I've seen hints that there's something weird going on with pipes: the term "bagpipe scale", key signatures with two sharps and one natural sign, tunes written with no key signature at all but that clearly need some sharps when played on a fiddle... Are pipers only able to play within a given scale, with no accidentals? Do chanters come in different keys like pennywhistles do?

Thanks, Marion

Subject: RE: Clarinet question and bagpipe question
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 06:32 PM

Many instruments sound a different tone when C is played......the clarinet sounds B flat. Some clarinets sound E flat, as do Alto and Bari saxes. Most trumpets are Bflat although they are also made in C and Eflat, but are very different instruments.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Clarinet question and bagpipe question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 06:39 PM

I just found it yesterday. Use 'Google' to search the web for 'Pitch and scale of the Great Highland Bagpipe'.

Subject: RE: Clarinet question and bagpipe question
From: sophocleese
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 08:49 PM

from the guy in this house who plays pipes and studied music...

Highland pipes are in mixolydian A (roughly), one octave plus a low G.

For some transposing instruments they transpose to avoid lots and lots of ledger lines, but save on creating different clefs.

Most brass instruments when blown open produce a B flat tone. So it was handiest to consider the unfingered note as C.

Personally I think its silly myself, but then again I transpose on site for some recorder tunes so that I can play them in an easier key...

Subject: RE: Clarinet question and bagpipe question
From: NH Dave
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 10:26 PM

The weirder thing going on is that Highland Bagpipe music isn't played as it is written. Just count up the notes and their value and you will see that there is far too much music written to be played in one measure.
This is because 1. Pipes, being bag blown (you blow into the bag, and the bag winds the drones and chanter) you can't stop each note, or between each note, so three quarter notes would sound as a dotted half note, which really disturbes the swing of most tunes. To work around this, grace notes, short "non counted" notes are played between these three quarter notes, so they will sound distinctly.
and 2. There are lots of these stylized grace notes that are played, each written in a notation that every experienced piper recognises, and sometimes plays in the correct manner. These grace notes are what give pipe tunes their distinctive lilt or bounce, and their lack makes the music seem dull in some hard to define manner. I understand that fiddle music works in a similar manner. Without knowing the shorthand used to denote these grace notes it is impossible to play pipe music as it is written, even if you could get the meter right. This is because the music to these these trills or notes is shorthand for what is to be played, and can't be played as written.
As far as tuning the Highland pipes, first the reed is set into the chanter so that it plays as close to a true octave from the low note at the bottom of the chanter to it's octave at the top of the chanter. By moving the chanter reed in and out very slightly, this can be brought close to optimum. Once this is done the three drones are tuned to a note on the chanter, and of course, each other. The short two sound in unison and the longer one an octave lower, and each is tuned by lengthening or shortening the length of the drone, rather like playing a trombone. This requires the piper sound one note on his chanter and reach back over his shoulder to move the ends of the drones in or out to bring them into tune. There is more than a little vhance of error here, and beginning pipers often ask a more experienced piper to go around and tune the three drones, as this is much faster. Having done all this on one set of pipes, one tries to get the entire band tuned more or less to the same pitch, sometimes truly impossible.
Highland Pipes play a scale nearly unique to themselves, but highland bands can approximate this by playing in the key of "A", if memory serves. In spite of this only the fiddle can accurately match Scottish pipes note for note as they are not fretted, and can play the white notes, the black notes, and in the cracks between these notes.
It is my understanding that Irish or Ullean Pipes, which use a bellows to inflate the bag, and have the drones out the front, are capable of several octaves and are much more easily tuned. I also believe that their tuning more closely approximates a specific key in western music.
Dave

Subject: RE: Clarinet question and bagpipe question
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 03:21 AM

A lot of it is habit and experience... I have a friend who can play the violin so you would weep, but only with music in front of him... Put him in a pub session and he cannot even pitch the damn tune, let alone pick it up and run with it.... shame, because he's a great player as well as being cute.... Ask him a technical question and he's off with a great long answer. Ask him if he knows a tune and he can only play it with the dots and only that key.

Jazz musicians are pretty good at sessions, because they are more used to being 'freelance' as it were. It is great for a person to learn an instrument, but so sad when they are restricted to just the dots on the page.... and even sadder when they so obviously only follow their own parts, without listening to how they interact with the whole piece or how it sounds completely.

I sing with my church music group, but recently have had a few weeks out. Listening to them singing from the congretagion, it is so obvious that they are following the words on the page, but not listening either to themselves, each other or the (regrettably recorded) organ music supporting them... Ho hum....

LTS

Subject: RE: Clarinet question and bagpipe question
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 03:53 AM

There are bagpipes and then there are bagpipes. I play the Uilleann pipes. I think it was in Moby Dick, in the Spouter Inn, when Ishmael is looking at a painting of an Uilleann Piper in amazement and askes, in child like wonder, "Can a Uilleann Piper really do that?" and an old seaman says, "An Uileann piper can do anything he wants. If God were to come to earth he would do so as an Uilleann Piper!"
The standard set is in D, and often has keys. I have two, a F natural and a C natural key (C sharpe Key? It's late and I am thick about these things...) Jerry O'Sullivan has either four or six keys on his chanter, I can't remember.
The second most common set is a flat set, in the key of C. Then there are sets made in E sharp and some in b flat. Ronan Brown has a bunch of sets in different keys.
But, in short, many people speak about the Highland pipes as bag pipes, and little else. These pipes, though not without charm, are often as subtle as a German Jazz band... I say this not completely without love for the instrument, just with a bit of fustration from people not booking my band without hearing the CD when they hear we play "bagpipes" and don't think of the mellow charm of it's Irish incarnation. Spain also has a lovely set of pipes, as does Macidonia, and other places in Eastern Europe. Then there is the musette in France, also a bellows blown pipe, as is the Northumbrian small pipe, the highland small pipes, and there is the Binou, in short, this incomplete listing should let you know there is more in heaven and earth than is dreamed about in your philosophy all ye highland pipers.
In closing, one can flaten the note ... any note in the scale on Highland pipes by placing the instrument under a steam roller, and in the case of Black Watch pipers, one can do this piper and all...
Don't ry this at home kids...
Larry Otway of the super band Sorcha Dorcha
(The only band in the world with 2 Uilleann pipers and an Oboe player {Obobst?})

Subject: RE: Clarinet question and bagpipe question
From:
Date: 03 Feb 01 - 05:49 AM

There are advantages to transposing instruments. One notable one is that you learn how to finger each written note. Then if you are playing a B flat clarinette, your music is written accordingly and you obey the notes as written. If you are playing an A clarinette, you finger it the same as the B flat but the way the music is written takes care of the transposition.

It is something like putting a capo on a guitar. Put a capo on the first fret and when you play a "C" shape you are actually playing a "C sharp" chord. Move the capo up another fret and you are playing a "D" chord with the same fingering. It is easier than learning a lot of new chords to fit each singer you accompany.

Murray