Lancashire bagpipes

Subject: Lancshire bagpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 04:32 AM

I read a thread on another site about the lost Lancshire bagpipe. Tunes for same are said to exist. Have the pipes been found?

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: ced2
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 01:32 PM

There are a number of us in Yorkshire aware of these pipes from Lancashire but, in the name of peace and sanity, we are all sworn to secrecy and silence! Furthermore a dreadful curse will fall upon the head of anyone breaking the silence or revealing the secret in anyway what-so-ever!

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 01:59 PM

Yorkshire , eh. Another country, passports, visas, border controls, seekers after asylam.

In such a climate bagpipe running and black market chanters are the currency of crime.

I am sure your people could meet ours on mutually beneficial terms. Need I mention the true story behind the Harry Ramsden fish batter secret?

No, I thought as much. I feel sure business can be done

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 03:41 AM

Perhaps ced2 has woken to find a horse head for company?

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: treewind
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 05:17 AM

I've read somewhere that what are commonly called "border pipes" were found all over Northern England, from Cheshire upwards. The 3/2 hornpipes that are associated with Cheshire and Lancashire were originally bagpipe tunes and their popularity dates from a time when the bagpipe was the folk dance instrument of choice.

If there's a bagpipe specific to Lancs, that's a new one on me; I've heard Julian Goodacre and his pipe-playing brothers talking extensively about English pipes and don't remember Lancashire being singled out.

But then, there's very little evidence either way. The discovery of an image of a set of pipes doesn't prove any particular association with the place where that image was found, even if (as in some cases) it was a decorative carving on a church pew.

The Northumbrian smallpipes are the only example which, especially in their modern development, are specific to a geographical area.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 05:32 AM

Thanks a lot Anahat, very clear.

I thought Leicestershire pipes were the subject of a workshop at Whitby this year.

Lancashire pipes have been the subject of speculation for a long time. I think Mary will recall Harry Boadman and (maybe?) Canny Fettle and Jamie Knowles being involved in the hunt and turning up tunes in the 70's.

Incidently, how can the instrument be identified from the tunes?

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 04:45 AM

ced2 would positively relish waking up with a horses head for company, they think it is a delicacy in Keighley.

eric

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 05:28 AM

"instrument of choice" surely you mean "Instrument of Torture"

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 07:23 AM

Lacnahrise bagpipes:
http://www.keithmusic.com/build.html#Bagpipes

about half way down. Don't know how they were reconstructed, but the 'doodle doodle doodle of the Lancashire hornpipe' was well known.

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 02:35 PM

http://www.keithmusic.com/BobT.html

This is a link to Bob T the reconstucture of said Lancashire pipes

Sorry I don't know how to use the blue clicky device

Subject: RE: Lancashire bagpipes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 04:16 PM

What a fascinating site - Alan's Bagpipe Collection

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 05:50 PM

I believe the last reference to professional bagpiping in England(outside of Geordie land) was 1796 in Ulverston, Lancashire(though it's now in Cumbria).
I haven't got the reference to hand. I'm afraid. It could, of course, be maintained that this might refer to an itinerant Irish piper(the navvies were around at the time), and that the indigenous pipers had died out earlier. You can certainly find plenty of tunes suitable for bagpies in NW English sources, though whether they were actually pipe tunes is always a bit conjectural.
    What is ceratinly true is that Lancashire was famous for bagpipers and hornpipes, though whether there was anything specially distinctive about the instrument as opposed to a Cheshire or Derbyshire hornpipe is not a question we are likely to see answered, I would guess.

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 05:52 PM

Sorry, the "hornpipes" in the penultimate sentence of my last post should be "bagpipes".

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 05:57 PM

I will NOT bring up the subject of the 'Surrey' Bagpipe !!

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 01:56 AM

See a book called 'Man in the Moss' by Phil Rickman!!!!

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: Bernard
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 01:43 PM

Jamie Knowles is the man to tell you about Lancashire Bagpipes... we had him in the BBC GMR studio about a year ago talking on that very subject (and lots of other stuff, too)!

If you want a copy of the broadcast, email me with your postal address, and I'll organise it for you.

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 04:17 PM

Bernard,
Has Jammie seen one?

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:46 PM

Jamie Knowles is a sound man.`He edited my note-books of north=western tunes back in the seventies, and published a lot of the results, under the name Northern Frisk and Northern Lass I think. Alas they are no longer in print, (I believe).

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: treewind
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:52 PM

I bought Northern Lass about 3 years ago and got some terrific tunes out of it.

Northern Frisk was out of print then.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 04:41 AM

anahata: come and drop in some time and you can have a browse in my notebooks...Jamie Knowles used 80 of mine in Northern Lass, but there are a lot of little gems he didnt use!

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: Bernard
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 06:47 AM

Les, Jamie hasn't seen any, and believes there are none still in existence. As has been said above, he and a few others are attempting a reconstruction of them, based on information available - including tunes known to have been played on the pipes.

Jamie believes they died out mainly because the fiddle and other melody instruments had a better range for the tunes people wanted to play, so the pipes lost popularity.

This also seems to suggest they were similar to Highland pipes in their range, although different in other respects.

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 12:32 PM

Thanks Bernard,

It's good to get a bit closer to information rather than speculation.

I guess suggestive stuff can be found rather as '45 groats paid for morris bells' is suggestive of Morris Dancers.

Perhaps '10 stomachs sold to Tom the Piper?

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 05:19 AM

May I recommend Nicholas Blundell's diaries(17th century) for a very interesting account of Lancashire life atthe time. Vey informative about piping, and also(as a bonus for southerners) he goes down to Oxfordshire on family business so we get some stuff on morris dancing as well.
The most interesting stuff to me was the fact that Blundell(a gentleman, of Crosby) actually socialised extensively with the piper he employed from time to time when he needed music. I remember discussing this very vehemently with Harry Boardman in the Plough in Galgate in the 60's. We both felt this fact said soemthing about northwest culture....we didnt feel southern gentlemen in 1650 would toddle round to the jobbing bagpiper for a meal and a chat!

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 01:10 PM

Excellent stuff Greg, is it fair to assume piper always means bagpiper?

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 02:01 PM

You have put your finger on the a very difficukt question Les...I think that you can't always make that assumption, you need to weigh up a lot of evidence. I think Nicholas Blundell's pal was a bagpiper, put it that way.(It is 30 years since I did that research, it woild take me a while to revisit that stuff and go through the evidence!).
   A good question to ask is "If this reference to a piper does not refer to bagpiper, what else is it likely to refer to?". Clearly it might in some contexts mean spmething else...penny whistler? Flautist? It needs careful consideration.

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 02:57 PM

Did things like the pipe that goes with the tabor belong to a collection of things that would be woodwind rather than things with reeds or those big things related to trumpets?

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 06:35 PM

The pipe as in "pipe and tabor" was a penny whistle that you played with one hand(one thumb hole and three fingers) leaving the other hand free to play the drum.

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 08:03 PM

A tabor pipe has a thumb hole, but only two fingers, Greg! At least, all three of mine have!! ;o)

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 12:57 PM

I'm sure you're right Bernard, apologies. I've never played one(I had a little go once, but it was a while ago)

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 02:35 AM

That last one was me, still having the old problem. I cant log in, so I'm nearly always a guest at the moment.

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: GUEST,Andrew Holgate
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 12:18 AM

Rod Cannon wrote a very good article on this subject in the 70's for the Folk song & Dance Journal.

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 03:10 AM

Anyone know if Roderick Cannon is still with us? I corresponded with him a lot in the 70's on northwest tunes, and then lost touch. He was in Norwich then.

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: 8_Pints
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 11:15 AM

I'll ask Tom Mullen what he can tell us about the subject next time I see him.

Bob vG

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: Anita Evans
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 12:00 PM

Roderick Cannon was alive and well when I spoke to him at the Lowland and Border Pipers Society AGM in Glasgow on November 13th this year

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 02:28 PM

Has he seen a Lancashire bp?

Could Jo change the title of this thread to Lancashire bagpipes please? I feel embarrased every time I see my typo.

Subject: RE: Lamcshire bagpipes
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 04:04 PM

Anita Evans: please have a look at your personal messages. I have a weird technical problem, I have to post as a GUEST, but I can send and receive PMs as normal.
Les in Chorlton: what's wrong with a misspelt title? We should not leave the field of creative bad spelling exclusively to our colleagues in Yorkshire, surely.

Subject: RE: Lancashire bagpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 03:30 AM

Good point Grog,

If bagpipes were at one time 'the folk instrument of chioce' does this suggest the widespread existance of bagpipes based on sheep's stomachs and originating in shepherding communities?

Perhaps a general bagpipe evolved in different parts of the shepherding world into regional varieties?

Subject: RE: Lancashire bagpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 10:41 AM

Is Sunday not a bagpipe day then?

Subject: RE: Lancashire bagpipes
From: Gedpipes
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 09:58 AM

Heck! humour from Luncashire

Subject: RE: Lancashire bagpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 02:36 PM

Clearly not perhaps Monday will be?

Subject: RE: Lancashire bagpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 12:25 PM

I guess this thread is going the way of the Lancashire pipes themselves?